Ship of Fools: Bastard Politicians Using Our Festivals for Propaganda

Thread: Bastard Politicians Using Our Festivals for Propaganda Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Did you watch the London fireworks ? Played audio music track, ostensibly a run-thru of 2012. OK fine if you must. But they played soundbites from Boris Johnson and David Cameron.

They actually ended the London New Years Fireworks with David Cameron's voice saying, 'Britain, we did it right'

[Mad]

Can the grasping shits not leave anything untainted ?

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Yeah, I think that was Seb Coe, from the closing ceremony of the Olympics. As visceral as my loathing of the Tories is, we can let this one go...

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I may chill out slightly, however there was definitely a Cameron soundbite in the middle and I don't think Boris Johnson should have been in there either.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

(Alternatively, maybe I shouldn't OP, when I have imbibed more than my usual amount of spirits ...)

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

They played sound bites from the year just finished. Naturally the political leaders made speeches in the year and bits were included. If they hijacked anything then they hijacked the Olympics.

However, at the time I heard the message rather than the speaker and thought they were right - the country did a brilliant job with the Olympics although YMMV. I am pleased they included these words and again I didn't think about who said them but what they said which was spot on.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

I wonder how many of the displays between 1997 and 2010 used sound clips from Bliar or Brown...

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I wonder how many of the displays between 1997 and 2010 used sound clips from Bliar or Brown...

Quite. Much as I despise Cameron and the Party he represents, he is the Prime Minister so it seems entirely appropriate that they should be trotting out soundbites.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Why do I suspect that if Labour were in power and they had read out some of Milli-Boy's sixth form poli-sci essays, then this thread wouldn't be here?

Besides, what's the point of us having power if we don't use it to rub our opponents noses in it from time to time.

Having said that, I didn't watch it. We watched Transformers 3 with Jooles at midnight. Quality!

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Why do I suspect that if Labour were in power and they had read out some of Milli-Boy's sixth form poli-sci essays, then this thread wouldn't be here?

Because, deano, whereas as you and I think that Labour are merely unrealistic, mistaken and foolish, Sioni, Doc Tor and Doublethink despise and loathe us and believe that we are acting in active bad-faith to achieve wicked ends.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Why do I suspect that if Labour were in power and they had read out some of Milli-Boy's sixth form poli-sci essays, then this thread wouldn't be here?
Because, deano, whereas as you and I think that Labour are merely unrealistic, mistaken and foolish, Sioni, Doc Tor and Doublethink despise and loathe us and believe that we are acting in active bad-faith to achieve wicked ends.

I can't speak for Doc Tor and Doublethink but I wouldn't accuse David Cameron and his pals, or you and deano of acting in bad faith. I believe you guys, and the Cabinet, to be entirely sincere, but I do think that some of you act out of selfishness and/or greed, to achieve short-term ends.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
...but I do think that some of you act out of selfishness and/or greed, to achieve short-term ends.

I don't see how you can call that good faith if that's how you see it.

(Personally I think there are many who vote conservative in good faith and some in the party with good faith. But I don't include Cameron or Boris in that group).

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
[QUOTE](Personally I think there are many who vote conservative in good faith and some in the party with good faith. But I don't include Cameron or Boris in that group).

I don't know whether to feel pathetically grateful or patronised by the condescending possibility that I might be in the number of the "some". BTW, what evidences causes you not to include the PM or the Mayor in that number?

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Politician pander to what gets them votes, rather than what is good for the nation.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
I don't know whether to feel pathetically grateful or patronised

I could opine regarding which response would suit you better if you wished. But you'd hardly expect me to state that all act in good faith, or it would be odd that I wasn't a paid up member myself.

For example, I find it unlikely that the policy changes Cameron presides over regarding the NHS are simply incompetent rather than taken in bad faith, and I thought the repeated promises of no top-down reforms, while they had a "bottom-up" reform that government was going to implement in their back-pockets was completely cynical.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I may chill out slightly, however there was definitely a Cameron soundbite in the middle and I don't think Boris Johnson should have been in there either.

Boris is the Mayor of London. I'd think he had every right to be in there.

(Not that I saw it myself, so I don't know what he actually said.)

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I could opine regarding which response would suit you better if you wished. But you'd hardly expect me to state that all act in good faith, or it would be odd that I wasn't a paid up member myself.

That's a complete non sequitur. You could concede that they were acting in good faith but believe them to be mistaken or foolish, without having to feel the need to be a paid up member. That's much how I view Labour politicos.

quote:
For example, I find it unlikely that the policy changes Cameron presides over regarding the NHS are simply incompetent rather than taken in bad faith, and I thought the repeated promises of no top-down reforms, while they had a "bottom-up" reform that government was going to implement in their back-pockets was completely cynical.

The policies could, in fact, be neither incompetent nor undertaken in bad faith but perfectly competent and undertaken in good faith but ones with which you simply disagree. As for the second point: fair enough.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
That's a complete non sequitur. You could concede that they were acting in good faith but believe them to be mistaken or foolish, without having to feel the need to be a paid up member. That's much how I view Labour politicos.

A fair point.

I will fall back to arguing that many conservatives in high office who enact and draft these policies are far too intelligent to simply mistaken about the effect of their policies. The more distant one gets from that the greater the possibility of simple error and good faith. (In my world view, of course).

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
The policies could, in fact, be neither incompetent nor undertaken in bad faith but perfectly competent and undertaken in good faith but ones with which you simply disagree. As for the second point: fair enough.

That is possible, but at present I believe my judgement and that of the majority in the health service regarding their likely impact. I could be mistaken, and I will eat my words over the next few years if I am. The cynical manner with which they were hidden and then produced after the election makes me even more suspicious.

(I remain puzzled as to why there didn't seem a larger cost in public opinion regarding that deception when the reforms were announced - perhaps as PeteC says the public expect cynical politicians on both sides and so don't bat an eyelid. On the other hand they raised public anger over a tax on pasties.)

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
<snip>
(I remain puzzled as to why there didn't seem a larger cost in public opinion regarding that deception when the reforms were announced - perhaps as PeteC says the public expect cynical politicians on both sides and so don't bat an eyelid. On the other hand they raised public anger over a tax on pasties.)

The health reforms were presented as necessary to save money. Because most people don't expect to be ill in the short term, most people were and remain indifferent to them.

The tax on pasties on the other hand cost lots of people money right there and then! That mattered, to small shopkeepers as well as pasty eaters, so people and the popular press howled.

It's simply money, see. You can get almost anything through via a tax cut, because many believe that the damage done by the (supposedly) inefficient public sector is greater than that done by the (stereotypically) greedy and profit-first private enterprises.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

I can see that, it's more that I'm surprised the government didn't take a major hit in terms of trust over having lied about it.

I would expect the same if they had campaigned on "no new point-of-sale pasty taxes" during the election, then introduced the tax shortly afterwards saying "oh, but this is a point-of-purchase tax".

Even more damning that the health reforms had clearly been worked on for years and so were in the draw all the time that they were assuring us they had no such plans.

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :

Might it be simply that most of us are so aware of the cynicism of present-day politicians that we are no longer surprised by their antics? I would suggest that there is very little that actually distinguishes any of the parties one from another - they will say anything if they think it will gain them votes. And I doubt that I am alone in this suspicion.

Good faith? Bad faith? It's all the same to a politician. What I do wonder is the degree to which senior civil servants are implicated - the Sir Humphries of this world. I have wondered recently whether there was some sort of sweepstake within the Secretarial ranks of the Civil Service - how ridiculous a policy can you get your Minister to introduce and claim as his own? Assuming, as I do, that the overwhelming majority of MP's have no real idea what life is like for the bulk of the population, I find it easy to believe that they have no concept of the actual impact that some of their proposals will have at street level, and are foolish enough to believe that their advisors are aware and that they are acting in good faith ... [Paranoid]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

My own view is not so cynical. I think there are genuine people in politics, although it is easy to be derisive and allege naivety whenever someone suggests one.

I am no supporter of conservative government, but it struck me when 1979 cabinet minutes were released regarding the governments handling of the Vietnamese refugee crisis it seemed to me that while my worst suspicions regarding Thatcher's racism and ruthlessness were confirmed, that Willie Whitelaw and Lord Carrington came across as genuinely concerned regarding the humanitarian aspects of the crisis and used their influence with Thatcher to persuade and cajole her into accepting some refugees.

My prejudices are against both men overall, but one ought to recognise honourable behaviour when it is evidenced.

Maybe the pasty tax vs NHS reform thing is that people expected them to be cynical and manipulative, but not daft and petty. The pasty tax looked daft and petty from the outset.

[ 01. January 2013, 18:09: Message edited by: mdijon ]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Gosh! The Prime Minister of the UK and Mayor of London (on the London Olympics) get to 'speak' at a national (for the UK celebration (in some way) taking place in London. [Mad]

's all round indeed!

[ 02. January 2013, 11:32: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :

There are many serious flaws with Cameron and his government but the people who snipe at the government on these boards rarely put up any sort of decent argument. This thread being a typical example. If media manipulation by politicians were so outrageous then the worst excesses were during the period of the last Labour government.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

Yes, Teflon Tony's 'People's Princess' speech in 1997 being particularly [Projectile]

[ 02. January 2013, 12:13: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

That icon is indelibly linked with ES in my mind.

But on this occasion I share the sentiment.

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