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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Bishops of Chichester, Fulham and now Beverley
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Thanks TT. My human sources had left SA in the early 1990s and were not up to date-- my own reading was of material under the episcopates of William West Jones and Geoffrey Clayton, and that was some time ago. The Order of Ethiopia is an interesting anomaly and I don't have much on it.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
It certainly was a fascinating phenomenon. I was intrigued by the great founder figure, James Mata Dwane, whose grandson it was became the Bishop of the Order and then Archbishop - he and his wife were killed in a car crash about 5 years ago.
When I was in SA I happened to have a cleaning lady who had once worked for Bishop Dwane. She used to gossip about him! (and much else besides, I hasten to add)
Anyway, end of tangent.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
... I can't remember who it was who said on these boards- might it even have been you, Enoch?- that a lot of the FiF crowd were basically congregationalists in tat, but I find myself increasingly reminded of it.
I don't think it was me, but I wouldn't totally dissent from it. There is one big difference, though. Old time congos believed that the church was the congregation, which called/hired a minister. FiF believe that Father is the church and the church is the forum in which he can be Father, without let or hindrance. The congregation are there to enable him to deliver that vision.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Why is it a 'sad development'? Nobody denies the right of conscientious objectors to OoW to have episcopal ministry which they accept. For the vast majority of them, this is provided by the 'flying bishops.' It is not unreasonable that a certain number of other diocesan and suffragan bishops will also be of that integrity, but there is no logic or tradition, and should be no expectation, that a particular see should be reserved for a particular point of view... whether that is F in F, Aff Cath, Modern Church, Reform or whatever.
I don't know Fr North but his reputation is high and he is clearly thought to be a suitable candidate for the episcopate. Appointing him to Whitby though would have entrenched that area as a stronghold for a minority viewpoint. Better to make him the Bishop of somewhere else and have a change of perspective at Whitby.
Though it raises the question, if the women bishops proposal failed because they would be seen as 'second-class', unacceptable to a minority, perhaps male bishops who are unable to accept a much larger proportion of their priests are also second class?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
It is desperately sad because this is a man who would make a fine bishop, who is regarded as such by many on both sides of the divide, who appears to have been bullied by people who couldn't be bothered to look further than labels.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Thurible, unless you know more than is in Philip North's own statement, there is no reason to assume that he has been bullied. What he said was that after meeting with the people of Cleveland he felt that he would not be able to be a focus of unity. This does not translate as 'he was bullied.' It may translate as his realization that the area was substantially more supportive of the ordination of women to the threefold order of deacons, priests, and bishops than he had been led to believe, for instance.
Everything that I have heard about Philip North leads me to think that he would be a good bishop: this withdrawal underlines my opinion. Maybe he could go to Lewes.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Oh, I don't know more. And perhaps it doesn't translate as bullying. The CT article read that way with its description of the petitioning letter, I thought, as does +Sentamu's reaction.
I think you're right, Amos, that he'd be fab. Lewes, I suppose, is an option but that depends on whether +Martin's going to appoint someone who'll ordain women or not. My money's on Edmonton, though.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Everything that I have heard about Philip North leads me to think that he would be a good bishop: this withdrawal underlines my opinion. Maybe he could go to Lewes.
I concur with your first sentence. He should (and hopefully will) be a bishop. But not Lewes: apart from anything else, +Chichester has already promised that he will have at least one suffragan prepared to ordain women.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Amos:
[qb] +Chichester has already promised that he will have at least one suffragan prepared to ordain women.
May I pursue this tangent for a mo? Has he promised or has he not ruled out the possibility? I can't remember where it was that I saw the line but I thought it was the latter but a number have felt it to be the former.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Tongue was slightly in cheek there, Angloid.
Reading John Sentamu's statement, I note that he says that he was 'confident that he [Philip North] would not only live up to Bishop Martin's example, but also go beyond it in his valuing of the ministry of his female colleagues.' How do you translate that?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I think the development is indicative of the challenge the CofE faces where people holding differing views about particular issues (in this case women priests) put pressure on the structures for a bishop who shares their integrity. This is potentially an issue both for those who believe women ought to be ordained as priests (and bishops) and for those who do not. There have been similar issues for multi-parish benefices where some of the parishes would really like a woman priest, or are at least keen that their field of choice should include women, and others - even only a single parish - have passed a resolution against. Under current legislation those against can insist that a woman is not appointed.
Broadly speaking this is consistent with the institutional culture and structures of the Church of England which is designed to favour the status quo, but it is not, from first principles, clear to me why a parish or parishes holding a sincere conviction that women should/can not be ordained as priests (or bishops) - and therefore they want a man appointed - should have a greater say than a parish or parishes which sincerely believe that women should/can be ordained as priests (or bishops) - and therefore they want to be open to the possibility of a woman being appointed, or at the very least a man who shares their views on women's ministry.
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
I regret Fr North's decision and along with others (on the basis of a passing acquaintance with him) think that he would make an excellent bishop.
But clearly not yet. The more I think about his sincere statement that he would not be a focus for unity, the more I am disappointed that he expects to find unity already, rather than create unity from disunity.
It does seem that there has been some pre-emptive opposition to his appointment, to which he has reacted. If this is the case, it would be his job as a bishop (together with the Archbishop) to create a unity of faith and understanding across the existing divide.
The same thing happened here when I was appointed nearly seven years ago. The parish had a very strong Credo Cymru (FiF Welsh-style) contingent, and some of them objected to my appointment as a priest who did not agree with them. We have found common ground in our commitment to the gospel and especially in the openness of our parishes to all. I am not perfect, and I dare say neither are the parishioners, but with God's help we have made a good go of it together.
A bishop's job is the same although writ large. The new bishop will have to make himself an instrument of unity, because without him there will be division. If Fr North does not feel ready or able to do this, he is not yet ready to be a bishop.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
It'll be a loss if he doesn't become a bishop sooner or later. But there's plenty of time, and Whitby may well not be the right fit.
It's also a difficult time for those opposed at present, because the defeat of the WB Measure has not played well in the CofE at large. So you can't blame him for not taking up appointment just at this particular juncture. But he has the gifts and the calling. There is no need to hurry to slot him in somewhere else. He may just need some space for prayer and reflection!
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It'll be a loss if he doesn't become a bishop sooner or later. But there's plenty of time, and Whitby may well not be the right fit.
It's also a difficult time for those opposed at present, because the defeat of the WB Measure has not played well in the CofE at large. So you can't blame him for not taking up appointment just at this particular juncture. But he has the gifts and the calling. There is no need to hurry to slot him in somewhere else. He may just need some space for prayer and reflection!
Very generous and very correct. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
Posts: 742 | From: Abertillery | Registered: May 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It'll be a loss if he doesn't become a bishop sooner or later. But there's plenty of time, and Whitby may well not be the right fit.
It's also a difficult time for those opposed at present, because the defeat of the WB Measure has not played well in the CofE at large. So you can't blame him for not taking up appointment just at this particular juncture. But he has the gifts and the calling. There is no need to hurry to slot him in somewhere else. He may just need some space for prayer and reflection!
Agree. Brilliant.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
I think it's important to remember that a bishop like a priest is called to serve a specific community / place. It seems this appointment had problems locally, and not unreasonable objection was raised.
The appointment does not seem to have been handled very well, and local opinion has not been listened to carefully enough in the process. I am not attributing any blame to the candidate, who actually has recognised this point. Questions should be asked about a process that put him in this situation.
If York diocese feel the need for an ABC style bishop why assign it always to the same part of the diocese, or why not make the suffragan bishops less territorial.
A better fit may well be found, but at the end of the day in the modern Church of England bishops are becoming far less symbols of unity than they were. Their role as symbols of unity is actually rarely tenable nowadays.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
I think it's important to remember that a bishop like a priest is called to serve a specific community / place. It seems this appointment had problems locally, and not unreasonable objection was raised.
The appointment does not seem to have been handled very well, and local opinion has not been listened to carefully enough in the process. I am not attributing any blame to the candidate, who actually has recognised this point. Questions should be asked about a process that put him in this situation.
If York diocese feel the need for an ABC style bishop why assign it always to the same part of the diocese, or why not make the suffragan bishops less territorial.
A better fit may well be found, but at the end of the day in the modern Church of England bishops are becoming far less symbols of unity than they were. Their role as symbols of unity is actually rarely tenable nowadays.
In Canada, generally (but not universally -- the Diocese of TOronto is currently an exception) suffragans do not have territorial jurisdiction -- they are simply assistants to the diocesan bishop. By and large they do not have territorial titles, and they do what they are told by their diocesan.
In the siutation in question, the Diocese of York needs, let us say, 3 suffragans. Without formal territorial responsibilities, one could easily deal with all (and only, perhaps) ABC parishes, whose primary relationship would still be with the diocesan. And no geographic section of the diocese would need to feel that it was being offered up as a sacrifice to the needs of other people, when its own needs were being ignored.
JOhn
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I know nothing about Philip North, other than what I have read relating to this issue, but he seems to me to be a good egg.
It does seem as though the process and structures are at fault here. To appoint as Bishop someone who does not believe that female clergy in his care are actually clergy strikes me as unreasonable - or is that not what is happening here? As for Bishop Sentamu's comments, they sound as though he is saying, "People should have trusted Philip North to respect the views of those with whom he disagrees, and to act accordingly" - isn't that more-or-less what was voted down a few weeks ago?
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
A better fit may well be found, but at the end of the day in the modern Church of England bishops are becoming far less symbols of unity than they were. Their role as symbols of unity is actually rarely tenable nowadays.
This may seem a bit pedantic, but I don't think it is.
I don't think a bishop is a 'symbol' of unity. It's rather more than that. The word more usually used is 'focus'. A key part of the bishop's job is to work for unity, to hold people together, however much they may at times be more like squalling cats in a sack, to try and get everyone serving the kingdom.
Things can be symbols. I'm not sure its either healthy or wholesome for them or us to think of people as symbols.
Returning to this case, I don't get the impression anyone is objecting to Fr North personally. It looks more as though some of the parishes in North East Yorkshire are saying, 'why does it have to be assumed that it's always us who get the diocese's misogynist suffragan?' I suspect, like the inhabitants of the Chichester diocese, they may have a point.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
A better fit may well be found, but at the end of the day in the modern Church of England bishops are becoming far less symbols of unity than they were. Their role as symbols of unity is actually rarely tenable nowadays.
This may seem a bit pedantic, but I don't think it is.
I don't think a bishop is a 'symbol' of unity. It's rather more than that. The word more usually used is 'focus'. A key part of the bishop's job is to work for unity, to hold people together, however much they may at times be more like squalling cats in a sack, to try and get everyone serving the kingdom.
Things can be symbols. I'm not sure its either healthy or wholesome for them or us to think of people as symbols.
Returning to this case, I don't get the impression anyone is objecting to Fr North personally. It looks more as though some of the parishes in North East Yorkshire are saying, 'why does it have to be assumed that it's always us who get the diocese's misogynist suffragan?' I suspect, like the inhabitants of the Chichester diocese, they may have a point.
Well said, Enoch. I agree about the symbol / focus difference you helpfully draw out.
Nevertheless it must be very difficult to be a focus of unity in a situation where you as bishop do not hold with half your clergy being ordained as priests.
I wonder how many parishes there are in Cleveland Archdeaconry and how many ABC parishes there are.
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I know nothing about Philip North, other than what I have read relating to this issue, but he seems to me to be a good egg.
As an assistant curate, I can confirm that Fr Philip North is a thoroughly good egg. A holy and devout man with a very sharp mind between his ears that he applies to the theological aspects of real life e.g. riots in North London. A loss to the bench in my view.
I disagree with him on some bone paddock issues but I thoroughly respect the man.
3F
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Percy B writes: quote:
Nevertheless it must be very difficult to be a focus of unity in a situation where you as bishop do not hold with half your clergy being ordained as priests
Given that this division is a reality in the English church, surely every bishop will face this challenge? Either a bishop is not on board with a cohort of his clergy as actually being priests, or must work with the fact that a cohort of his clergy be not accepted by that first cohort. As was predicted many years ago, the situation is untenable, but each bishop must be able to address the tension until such time as one opinion or the other is deemed officially unacceptable.
I know nothing of Fr North, but everybody seems to think he would be a good bishop--- if so, then it would be a shame to lose him.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Percy B writes: quote:
Nevertheless it must be very difficult to be a focus of unity in a situation where you as bishop do not hold with half your clergy being ordained as priests
Given that this division is a reality in the English church, surely every bishop will face this challenge?
That's true. And surely those OoW priests and bishops who remain in the C of E have had to come to terms with it. Whatever their views of the theology or the precise status of ordained women, they mostly co-exist quite happily in the current mixed economy. A bishop needs to be the pastor for the whole church, for 'both integrities'; maybe the tensions for Fr North were that he felt pushed into being partisan.
From what I have read, it seems as if he is wise enough and pastoral enough not to see his ministry in sectarian terms. But only he can take the decision about whether he is confident of achieving that in this situation.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Clarification of above: I meant to say 'opposed to OoW' priests and bishops.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
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Posted
Congratulations to +Glyn Beverley for his consecration, wonderful to see God still calls traditionalist to be Bishops in his church.
Now we await the news of +Ebbsfleet in a couple of months and +Blackburn which is due in a month or so.
I've heard from sources that +Blackburn is likely to be a traditionalist and that +Sentamu Ebor is adamant so I doubt his mind will be changed
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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
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Stranger in a strange land
Shipmate
# 11922
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Posted
But surely +Sentamu/Ebor has very limited influence in the matter of who is appointed to the See of Blackburn?
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AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
But surely +Sentamu/Ebor has very limited influence in the matter of who is appointed to the See of Blackburn?
Well in the event that a traditionalist is appointed, he will ignore the letter sent by members of the See of Blackburn and proceed with the appointment of a trad cath
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Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Surely the letter you refer to, and the various lobbying of the 'traditionalist' camp, are only two factors among many that need to be borne in mind. It may be that the powers that be (and I don't think the Archbishop has a veto, does he?) decide for many other reasons that Fr Traditionalist or Archdeacon Liberal or whoever will be the best person for Blackburn. I don't think that 'churchmanship', let alone his position on OoW, should have anything to do with it.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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+Chrism
Apprentice
# 17032
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Posted
Fr Philip North is likely to be announced as ****** of Ebbsfleet - Rumours have it
It isn't what they say about you, it's what they whisper. - Errol Flynn
[ 12. February 2013, 00:37: Message buggered about with by: Doublethink ]
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+In Nomine Patris Et Filio Sancti
Posts: 38 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
+Chrism, have you read this ?
Doublethink
Purgatory H o s t
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by +Chrism:
Fr Philip North is likely to be announced as ****** of Ebbsfleet - Rumours have it
</small>
Rumours, schmumours.
As with the appointment of the Bishop of Fulham, and of the Bishop of Ebbsfleet, it'll be someone that no-one had initially considered, I think.
I know who I want; I know who I don't want; I can think of a couple I wouldn't mind and think would be alright.
We'll see.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
And what if it were to be an evangelical?
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Pete
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
It would be interesting, certainly.
Would he don a mitre and chasuble, recite the Angelus at the end of the Parish Mass, and bless as the people knelt on his departure?
Then, for most parishioners, that'd be fine.
Thurible
[ 18. February 2013, 11:52: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Indeed. I've known evangelical bishops who happily do 1 and 3 but not 1, 2, and 3. The trio would be be the winner.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Percy B
Shipmate
# 17238
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Posted
..brief tangent, if I may...
What is an Alpha plant? - referred to in last post by Leo
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Mary, a priest??
Posts: 582 | From: Nudrug | Registered: Jul 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's a fierce man-eating plant which traps unwary anglo-catholics, covers them in a sticky substance and drags them down to a place deep inside the plant from which there is no escape. See 'Sundew', 'Venus Flytrap', etc.
Alternatively, it's opening a new church in a redundant building, supported by Holy Trinity Brompton, the home of Alpha courses and suppers. Take your pick.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Technically a Church Plant in the Diocese of London. In this case, an HTB church plant. But under the authority of the Bishop.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Maureen Lash
Apprentice
# 17192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And what if it were to be an evangelical?
A possible escape from your current dead-end?
Posts: 32 | From: Moseley | Registered: Jul 2012
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I would like to trust that that is not intended to be a personal attack Maureen.
Doublethink
Purgatory Host
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
An evangelical in Lewes didn't do Chichester any good, by the looks of the child protection scandals.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Exactly.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If someone reports sexual activity with a minor, you contac the police. In other words, the diocesan child proteciton policy was crap.
But, I don't know what the government guidance was in 1997 - or the likely police response in 1997. Here is the current government guidance.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
In 1997? Most cerertainly the official line was report the matter. Probably in 1987 as well.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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