|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Bishops of Chichester, Fulham and now Beverley
|
AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
|
Posted
It's a interesting and trying time, I believe for us Catholic Anglicans as we are losing 2 Bishops due to retirement and one suffragan see still in vacancy.
It is fantastic to hear that the process for the new Bishop of Chichester is now in the hands of the Crown Nominations Commission and the announcement is due from Downing Street in May (God-Willing).
Hopefully for us Catholic Anglicans, a traditionalist Catholic Bishop is appointed, so we don't loose that Diocesan See as it's be with us for ages.
When reading the announcement of the +Martyn Jarrett's retirement, it didn't mention anywhere about appointing a possibly successor for Bishop Martyn.
So could this mean that +John Sentamu has decided that he doesn't want to appoint a successor.
It is to my understanding speaking to a member of the Fulham Clergy that the announcement about the New Bishop of Fulham will be made in February/March but again this may just be hear say.
Although I do pray and hope that the Bishop of London and his team "Bishop of Willesden" and so forth move fast with appointing a successor to Monsignor John Broadhurst especially as we all approach a year of uncertainty for all of us.
I don't believe that it would be at all right for us Catholic Anglicans in London to remain any longer without our own Bishop.
I believe especially during this time of Advent/Christmas we should pray that worthy successors shall be appointing to the various see's that they will be men who will lead us through the uncertain times within the year ahead
--------------------
Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
Posts: 85 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
You don't elect your bishops?
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
Hopefully for us Catholic Anglicans, a traditionalist Catholic Bishop is appointed, so we don't loose that Diocesan See as it's be with us for ages.
In my innocence, I thought that a Diocesan Bishop was just that: the Bishop of the whole diocese, and not just a faction within it.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
anon four
Shipmate
# 15938
|
Posted
And as an Aff Cath type - just to say there are plenty of "Catholic" C of E Bishops - they're just not all against the ordination of women etc. Maybe a more specific terminology would be clearer.
--------------------
Ό δε ανεξέταστος βίος ου βιωτος ανθρώπω.
Posts: 82 | From: Sunny South Coast, UK | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
You don't elect your bishops?
No.
Mind you, it meant we, and particularly Anglo-Catholics, didn't bother taking much notice of them.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
You don't elect your bishops?
No.
Mind you, it meant we, and particularly Anglo-Catholics, didn't bother taking much notice of them.
There you are quite wrong. The bishops of the CoE are elected. The electorate is the Dean and Chapter of the cathedral of the diocese; they are given permission by the Crown to hold an election (congé d'elire). At the same time they are given the name of the successful candidate. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
Until the election of David Jenkins, whenever a particularly unsuitable candidate (heretic) has been nominated by the crown there have always been one or two canons who dared to vote against the conge d'elire nominee.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
I don't believe that it would be at all right for us Catholic Anglicans in London to remain any longer without our own Bishop.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) You have got a Bishop, chum- Richard Chartres. In fact you've got two- him and your area Bishop. Only thing is, you have to share them with all those you choose not to define as 'Catholic'. That's part of being in the CofE. So play nicely now, because the Baby Jesus likes us to share.
[ 13. December 2011, 21:35: Message edited by: Albertus ]
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
I know I'm going to regret asking this but ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) what's a 'Catholic Anglican'. I know what an Anglo-catholic is. But I understood - mainly from Catholic acquaintances - that 'Catholic' (big 'C') generally refers to the Roman Catholic Church.
And, again, I can understand any Anglican bishop wishing to claim catholicity of ministry, or being described as 'catholic' - but why would a Catholic bishop be interested in applying for posts within the Anglican Church?
This Anglican anglican is a bit confused?!
--------------------
Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
You don't elect your bishops?
No.
Mind you, it meant we, and particularly Anglo-Catholics, didn't bother taking much notice of them.
There you are quite wrong. The bishops of the CoE are elected. The electorate is the Dean and Chapter of the cathedral of the diocese; they are given permission by the Crown to hold an election (congé d'elire). At the same time they are given the name of the successful candidate.
Yes, the Queen is indeed gracious. She gives them leave to elect a bishop and then saves them the trouble of thinking by telling them the name of teh only person for whom they may vote. Gets them to the sherry faster.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
As there is nothing here about liturgical practice, this isn't a topic for Ecclesiantics. May I suggest, AngloCatholic Dude, that Opening Posts should include a question or proposition for discussion, beyond the assertion of a point of view. Purgatory seems to be the better fit for the discussion as it stands now.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, the Queen is indeed gracious. She gives them leave to elect a bishop and then saves them the trouble of thinking by telling them the name of teh only person for whom they may vote. Gets them to the sherry faster.
To be fair, the Queen only takes the name the PM gives her. And the PM almost always takes the name the Crown Nominations Commission gives him...
And addressing the OP - isn't the whole flying bishops system being dismantled pending the introduction of different provision when the Women Bishops Measure comes into force?
--------------------
blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
This all reminds me of the episode of Yes Prime Minister where the PM had to appoint a bishop from a list of names he'd been given. He was uncomfortable about this as he had no experience of Church matters, but Sir Humphrey assured him that when the church submitted names, it was like a conjuring trick where the conjuror "forces" you to take a card knowing in advance which one it will be. When the PM asked "How will I know if I've picked the correct card?" Sir Humphrey replied "It will either be a knave or a queen!"
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
And addressing the OP - isn't the whole flying bishops system being dismantled pending the introduction of different provision when the Women Bishops Measure comes into force? [/QB]
No. The status quo remains until the new Measure (if it passes its remaining hurdles) comes into force.
By the time +Beverley retires, the Measure will not have Royal Assent and the Act of Synod will not have been repealed. So if +York moves quickly, he will have an opportunity to appoint a new PEV.
And from my dealings with +York, if he is minded so to do, just try and stop him!
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Sir Humphrey replied "It will either be a knave or a queen!"
[Pedant mode]
Actually, that's Bernard.
[\Pedant mode\]
--------------------
"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
By the time +Beverley retires, the Measure will not have Royal Assent and the Act of Synod will not have been repealed. So if +York moves quickly, he will have an opportunity to appoint a new PEV.
And from my dealings with +York, if he is minded so to do, just try and stop him!
I was standing about two feet away from Archbishop Sentamu at a 'party' when he told someone with some force that he (i.e., the person he was addressing) that he would be the next Bishop of Beverley. That person is now already a bishop so I am hoping that he is similarly determined to appoint someone else.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Sir Humphrey replied "It will either be a knave or a queen!"
[Pedant mode]
Actually, that's Bernard.
[\Pedant mode\]
The OP put me in mind of a different passage of that episode, when Sir Humphrey explains that when considering the vacant bishopric, the Church will want a candidate to maintain the balance on the bench of bishops.
"What balance?"
"Between those that believe in God and those that don't."
--------------------
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
|
Posted
And my sig is, of course, another passage from the same episode and the justification for the Congé d’élire.
--------------------
"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
|
Posted
Who appoints PEVs? Surely it's not +Ebor and +Cantaur, but rather HMQ via Downing Street and the Crown Nominations Committee?
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
|
Posted
Re: Definition of "Catholic Anglican" etc
It's a difficult one and I see people criticised on the Ship and elsewhere for any number of different 'labels' for this particular constituency.
"Traditional Catholic" is what I tend to use (when talking internal CofE matters - it's clearly inappropriate in an ecumenical context), but appears to offend some.
"Catholic Anglican" or "Catholic-minded Anglican" clearly offends Aff-Cath (and others)
"FiF" is inaccurate, as that is a political organisation which a person or parish may or may not be a member of.
"SSWSH" - ditto
"Anti-OoW" and related variants is, at best, an incomplete description, and feels somewhat uncharitable. I prefer to define people as to what they are and what they are for, rather than what they are against.
So, what to use?
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
Who appoints PEVs? Surely it's not +Ebor and +Cantaur, but rather HMQ via Downing Street and the Crown Nominations Committee?
They's suffragans of the Archbishops and so are appointed by the Archbishops, as I understand the process. +Rowan consults with "the constituency" and I can only assume that +Sentamu does so too.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Earwig:
Who appoints PEVs? Surely it's not +Ebor and +Cantaur, but rather HMQ via Downing Street and the Crown Nominations Committee?
Nope, their Diocesan Bishop appoints. Beverley is a Suffragan See of York, Ebbsfleet and Richborough, of Canterbury. CNC is Diocesans only.
[ 14. December 2011, 12:54: Message edited by: The Man with a Stick ]
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
|
Posted
Thanks, Thurible and TMWAS.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
Re: Definition of "Catholic Anglican" etc
It's a difficult one and I see people criticised on the Ship and elsewhere for any number of different 'labels' for this particular constituency.
"Traditional Catholic" is what I tend to use (when talking internal CofE matters - it's clearly inappropriate in an ecumenical context), but appears to offend some.
"Catholic Anglican" or "Catholic-minded Anglican" clearly offends Aff-Cath (and others)
"FiF" is inaccurate, as that is a political organisation which a person or parish may or may not be a member of.
"SSWSH" - ditto
"Anti-OoW" and related variants is, at best, an incomplete description, and feels somewhat uncharitable. I prefer to define people as to what they are and what they are for, rather than what they are against.
So, what to use?
Isn't there a difference between 'Catholic Anglicans' and 'Anglican Catholics'? In that the former see themselves as Anglicans first, (and therefore Catholics), but wish to highlight the Catholic nature of the Church; the latter see themselves as Catholics first (often in the sense that is defined by Rome) and Anglicans second. I don't see how Affirming Catholics could be offended by the former label.
There could be an implication in either description that other Anglicans are not in fact catholic. There is a suggestion of this in some of the partisan clamouring for a bishop who is 'one of us'. Taken to its logical conclusion this undermines the whole anglo-catholic position.
However we seem happy enough to describe some people as Evangelicals without denying that the rest of us also believe in the Gospel; or as Orthodox without admitting we are unorthodox. Why can't we happily use the label Catholic (prefaced by Roman or Anglican if necessary to avoid ambiguity) without denying that other Christians are part of the Catholic Church?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, the Queen is indeed gracious. She gives them leave to elect a bishop and then saves them the trouble of thinking by telling them the name of teh only person for whom they may vote. Gets them to the sherry faster.
Yes, but only after the government has told her the name of the only person for whom she may vote!
And these days that is only after the CofE has told the government the only name that they can vote for. They used to provide two as a sort of legal fiction but both Thatcher and Blair now and again chose the other one for reasons that are not at all clear to anyone. So Gordon Brown asked to be sent only one name in future as that would save him the temptation of deliberately choosing the wrong one.
That's the nature of the Established church.
Its turtles all the way down ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Calling the anti-OOW party "Traditional Catholic" is a sort of land-grab for pretended orthodoxy. It is deliberatly designed to exclude and marginalise who hold orthodox Christian theology but happen to disagree with FiF and their friends on ordaining women. Many of them are a lot more traditional and orthodox than many of the anti-women party.
Its also self-defeating as those it pushes away include many evangelicals and women. And most Anglicans are probably either evangelicals or women. In fact most Anglicans are probably evangelical women.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AngloCatholicDude:
I don't believe that it would be at all right for us Catholic Anglicans in London to remain any longer without our own Bishop.
Did you actually write that with a straight face?
Take some Geritoly. You have an irony deficiency.
It reminds me of an occasion in a large congregation (denomination withheld, but assuredly not Anglican) when several babies were
to be baptized. All the clergy were to be present, so that each couple could choose their favorite minister to perform the baptism.
This was probably the uninstructive, sentimental, divisive, and generally ludicrous brainchild of some little old lady who thought it would be cool. How Protestant in the worst way. And I am at a loss to understand how what you wrote is any improvement on it.
Since when, in the eyes of a Catholic, does the effectiveness of a sacrament depend on how well one happens to like, or agree with the opinions of, the clergyman celebrating it? Unless his (or, more to the point, her-- but you don't have lady bishops in the C of E yet, do you?) actual orders are dubious, we are known for upholding the doctrine of ex opere operato-- which is why, when the chips are down, bishops sometimes discover that the Anglo-Catholics in the diocese are their best friends. +Charles here in Pennsylvania is a case in point.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Isn't there a difference between 'Catholic Anglicans' and 'Anglican Catholics'? In that the former see themselves as Anglicans first, (and therefore Catholics), but wish to highlight the Catholic nature of the Church; the latter see themselves as Catholics first (often in the sense that is defined by Rome) and Anglicans second. I don't see how Affirming Catholics could be offended by the former label.
You could well be right.
I can only give a personal response to the Catholic Anglican thing, and that is, to me, it doesn't make much sense. A Catholic is usually someone who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church. An Anglican is usually someone who is a member of the Anglican Church. Anglo-catholic suggests someone who is an Anglican with potentially Capital 'C' Catholic tendencies; a sub-set of Anglicanism along with other sub-sets.
But the poster obviously doesn't wish to be associated with Anglo-catholicism as he doesn't call himself an Anglo-Catholic.
So I honestly can't imagine what it is 'Catholic Anglican' is supposed to suggest to the listener. I suppose my point is that 'Catholic' (rather than catholic) is already a label which is widely used and understood to define a particular Church, and it almost looks like an attempt at appropriation for it to be used as a pre-fix to one's actual Church.
It just looks like a new denomination, to me. Bit like a Seventh Day Adventist Methodist, or an Anglican Greek Orthodox.
It's not the same, either, to use a comparison of 'evangelical'. There isn't a denomination 'Evangelical', as there is Catholic. It's a description of a churchmanship that can cross denominations.
Still, it's just my view, and it's always interesting to see something new and innovative in Anglicanism that I've never spotted before! We live and learn!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
'Catholic' (rather than catholic) is already a label which is widely used and understood to define a particular Church,
That would be the Church in which we profess our faith whenever we say the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds. Maybe it's different in some parts of the world, but last time I looked in the TEC BCP (either current or 1928), the adjective was capitalized. What is the authority for considering a low-c catholic with a different meaning?
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
So I honestly can't imagine what it is 'Catholic Anglican' is supposed to suggest to the listener.
I occasionally use the term, mostly about myself, when I want to refer to somebody who generally rejects the term Anglo-Catholic (see below) but belongs at the spikier end of Anglican belief whilst not rejecting those following a lower trajectory as having something wrong with them.
Why reject the Anglo-Catholic label? Because in popular usage it's come to mean lace, pop-pom hats, Roman* rites, rejection of OoW, stratospherically high worship and Anglo-Papalism. None of which I'd particularly criticise but it's not what I'm about.
It's also a Pavlovian response to the use of the phrase "Henrician Church" but I accept that's nothing more than a character defect.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
I thought PEVs were to he abolished unless a new amendment goers through synod. They cooked their own geese when they started pretending to have dioceses like 'The See of Ebbsfleet' and were prayed for as 'Andrew our Bishop' (Our bishop is Mike of Bristol, not Jonathan of Ebbsfleet)
Why does the OP put inverted commas around +Pete Willesden.
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I agree with almost everything in this thread except for the opening post. I particularly agree with what Albertus has said, and what Alogon said about ex opere operator which is endorsed by Article 26. As for the notion that people should be able to pick and choose to have their babies baptised by their favorite vicar, haven't they read this.
However, I want to take issue with something else about the term that appears later in the thread, "Traditional Catholic". I suspect many shipmates will be upset by this, but words matter. Traditional Catholic" does not mean the same thing as "Catholic Tradition".
As far as the Cs of E or W are concerned, however strongly you may support the Catholic Tradition, there is no such thing as a 'Traditional Catholic'. You must choose a different phrase. The whole of Anglo-Catholicism in its modern form is an innovation that did not exist before 1833. You can claim with pride to be Anglo-Catholic. You can claim to be in the Catholic Tradition. But if you are Anglican and are desperate to claim to be "traditionally' anything, I regret to say, even if you are 'high and dry' after the best C18 model, you have to be traditionally Protestant. As a member of the CofE rather than the CofR you can no more claim to be a Traditional Catholic than a Thatcherite can claim to be a 'Traditional Conservative'.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why does the OP put inverted commas around +Pete Willesden. [/QB]
Perhaps he is such a traditionalist that he cannot accept a man can be both a bishop and a berk.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
I am also concerned that the OP envisages anglo-catholicism as a sect within a denomination - I have heard people talk of 'The Anglo Catholic Church.' Bishops do not be;long to one party - even PEVs have evangelical parishes who seek their oversight.
Also, I don't like the idea that a diocese has been 'in our hands' for a long time. There is a lot to be said for alternating evangelical/catholic/liberal appointments to dioceses
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I agree with almost everything in this thread except for the opening post. I particularly agree with what Albertus has said, and what Alogon said about ex opere operator which is endorsed by Article 26. As for the notion that people should be able to pick and choose to have their babies baptised by their favorite vicar, haven't they read this.
However, I want to take issue with something else about the term that appears later in the thread, "Traditional Catholic". I suspect many shipmates will be upset by this, but words matter. Traditional Catholic" does not mean the same thing as "Catholic Tradition".
As far as the Cs of E or W are concerned, however strongly you may support the Catholic Tradition, there is no such thing as a 'Traditional Catholic'. You must choose a different phrase. The whole of Anglo-Catholicism in its modern form is an innovation that did not exist before 1833. You can claim with pride to be Anglo-Catholic. You can claim to be in the Catholic Tradition. But if you are Anglican and are desperate to claim to be "traditionally' anything, I regret to say, even if you are 'high and dry' after the best C18 model, you have to be traditionally Protestant. As a member of the CofE rather than the CofR you can no more claim to be a Traditional Catholic than a Thatcherite can claim to be a 'Traditional Conservative'.
This was kind of my point in posting. People are happy to knock down any labels that this constituency adopt (or labels that are adopted on their behalf), but what ARE we meant to call them?
Incidentally, I use Traditional Catholic because that's the label that the General Synod Revision Committee adopted in their work on Women in the Episcopate.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Does anyone remember those old TV adverts for some bank or other (no doubt now defunct and taken over by a government-funded Spanish plumbing chain) where the bank manager was kept in a broom cupboard and emerged suddenly every now and again to help the family with their financial affairs and then went back inside again till next needed?
It seems we now want bishops like that.
"You have your bishop, we have our bishop. We keep him in the vestment press and bring him out for ordinations, confirmations, barbecues, and major theological disputations."
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
The whole of Anglo-Catholicism in its modern form is an innovation that did not exist before 1833.
Most of it didn't exist before about 1880, and quite a lot of it not till the 1920s.
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
Incidentally, I use Traditional Catholic because that's the label that the General Synod Revision Committee adopted in their work on Women in the Episcopate.
God forbid that anyone should reject the hallowed terminology of the General Synod Revision Committee.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
AngloCatholicDude
Shipmate
# 16476
|
Posted
I have faith that +Ebor will appoint a new Bishop of Beverley and I hope the General Synod allow this new man to flourish (who ever he may be)
I believe that with Chichester having been part of the Forward in Faith Catholic Bishops Family for quite a long time starting from Eric Kemp and John Hind
I put "+Pete Willesden" in comma's because he was involved in chairing a Working Party that looked into the Area Scheme, which went to the Diocesan Synod in October and the House of Bishops in November.
I heard from a member of Fulham clergy all went well with that and he believes the process has now started.
He did indeed leave me with 2 possible names.
--------------------
Trusting and Believing in the Catholic Tradition within the Church of England
Posts: 85 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
"You have your bishop, we have our bishop. We keep him in the vestment press and bring him out for ordinations, confirmations, barbecues, and major theological disputations."
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Seems like they are getting their revenge for the days when 'protestant' bishops put 'catholic' parishes 'under the ban.'
quote:
The Bishop will not visit me, nor take my confirmations;
Colonial prelates I employ from far-off mission stations.
Acknowledgements to the late Dr Eric Mascall ("The Ultra-Catholic")
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
otyetsfoma
Shipmate
# 12898
|
Posted
You did not have to be an ultra prot bishop to discipline mad anglo-catholics. Winnington-Ingram would to my Orthodox view seem a reasonably catholic bishop, but there was a church in Fulham he would not go to because they isisted they had to have Benediction in Latin.
Posts: 842 | From: Edgware UK | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why does the OP put inverted commas around +Pete Willesden.
Perhaps he is such a traditionalist that he cannot accept a man can be both a bishop and a berk. [/QB]
Is this gratuitously offensive or am I missing something?
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
|
Posted
Aumbry is always gratuitously offensive. Ignore.
--------------------
Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
|
Posted
Now that the Area Scheme review has been agreed by London Diocesan Synod, the aim is to promulge an updated version of the London Plan. That can then make it possible for an appointment of a new Bishop of Fulham, if the Bishop of London thinks that such an appointment should be made.
--------------------
Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
They cooked their own geese when they started pretending to have dioceses like 'The See of Ebbsfleet'...
Ebbsfleet is a See. See is not a synonym for Diocese.
This man's See is the Indian Ocean.
Sorry, just being frivolous. As you were.
--------------------
I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Aumbry is always gratuitously offensive. Ignore.
I'm glad I wasn't being more than usually 'twp'.
BTW, +Pete, I don't think 'promulge' is right, unless it's some kind of Anglican technical neologism. I think the word is 'promulgate'.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
|
Posted
I'd like to say that making new words is an expression of episcopal creativity, but it appears promulge is an archaic form of promulgate. Oh well.
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
I'd like to say that making new words is an expression of episcopal creativity, but it appears promulge is an archaic form of promulgate. Oh well.
Really? How ghastly. OED is your friend and my nemesis.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
Aumbry is always gratuitously offensive. Ignore.
I'm glad I wasn't being more than usually 'twp'.
BTW, +Pete, I don't think 'promulge' is right, unless it's some kind of Anglican technical neologism. I think the word is 'promulgate'.
Nice to see the good old Welsh word twp again. How long before you are asked to gloss it?
No - 'promulge' is clearly derived from the astonishingly rare low Latin verb promulgeo meaning 'to milk in advance'. As in nursing mothers 'expressing'.
If those posting immediately above can be frivolous .....
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Divulge is a word so it makes sense.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
A Catholic is usually someone who is a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
Indeed - usually. But we Anglo-Catholics/Catholic Anglicans/Anglican Catholics* have been doing our best since we got started to curb that body's claims to a monopoly on the moniker.
I've never been sold, incidentally, on the interpretation that "Catholic Anglican" (or "Evangelical Anglican" for that matter) suggests "Catholic first." Grammatically at least it seems equally plausible to suggest that having "Catholic" as the modifier implies that Anglicanism is the baseline.
*In North America there is some potential for confusion as the name "Anglican Catholic" is also used in a proprietary way by certain continuing Anglican groups, but they are relatively small and context usually anchors references to them.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
