|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Is it only bullying if there is no escape?
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
On a recent Styx thread, there seemed to be different streams of thoughts from several posters on whether or not bullying takes place if one has the option to simply walk away. With some hesitation, I have decided to not link to that thread, as much there was written in context (anyone who disagrees is, of course, free to add a link) I thought this issue might merit its own discussion, hopefully without replaying the Styx thread.
So, what constitutes bullying?
If one can not escape it, such as in a schoolyard or an employment situation, perhaps it is easy to see a power imbalance or being outnumbered and persistently oppressed as being bullied.
But what about on a discussion board, where one can walk away?
How about in a business situation, where it is possible to take one's business elsewhere?
If an obnoxious drunk in a bar or restaurant causes you to leave without finishing your meal, have you been bullied, or simply used your own choice and best judgment?
If someone curses nonstop on a bus, and the words are offensive to you, have you been bullied or simply irritated?
Where do you draw the line between someone behaving in a disagreeable manner and bullying?
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Where do you draw the line between someone behaving in a disagreeable manner and bullying?
Bullying is when you are singled out for wrath by someone who can harm you far easier than you can harm them and it is difficult or impossible to get away from the bad situation.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
It can look like you walked away when you're actually driven away, too. If someone were singled out and harassed on this or another web forum until they could only escape it by leaving, I'd say that's bullying!
After all, in much real-life bullying, the effect is to manipulate someone's behavior so they "walk away" in some sense. You could be bullied at work, for example, if co-workers or superiors make your life difficult every time you bring up some issue, so that you either censor yourself or quit your job in order to escape it.
Once you're no longer a kid on a fenced-in playground, there's rarely a scenario where you can't "walk away" in some sense, I think. It's just that, as the bully knows, you find the alternative - whether it be quitting a job, divorcing an abusive spouse, finding a new church, or just keeping your mouth shut - less of an option than enduring the bullying.
Pointing out that someone could "walk away," IMO, can be a valuable weapon in the bully's arsenal. It trivializes the abuse and makes the person being bullied look and feel weak. It wrongly places responsibility for the situation fully on the shoulders of the victim.
ETA: One of the more difficult aspects in real-life bullying is that it's probably rarely done in a way that leaves a record/evidence trail - by email, e.g. Usually it's going to be your word against the bully's, and often they will have been deftly manipulating others to think of them as a saint. At least on the web, with the exception of PMs, there's a very public record.
[ 14. October 2012, 20:43: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ruudy
Shipmate
# 3939
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Pointing out that someone could "walk away," IMO, can be a valuable weapon in the bully's arsenal. It trivializes the abuse and makes the person being bullied look and feel weak. It wrongly places responsibility for the situation fully on the shoulders of the victim.
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I remember the exchange on the other thread mentioned by the OP. I thought it ridiculous to say that the ability of the victim to "walk away" necessarily meant the aggressor's behavior was not bullying.
Bullying is often used to alienate/marginalize someone who does not have to be a part of a group but who wants to be assimilated into the group and is being kept from doing so.
--------------------
The shipmate formerly known as Goar.
Posts: 1360 | From: Gatorland | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
Who, then, decides whether a situation is bullying or disagreement?
The one declaring themselves as bullied?
The community in its response?
The thought police?
Who makes this assessment, and how?
If, for example, someone places racist comments on your Facebook page, knowing that you as a person of colour will find them offensive, is that bullying or being a jerk?
If someone follows your comments on this page with sexist comments, is that bullying, or being a jerk?
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Starbug
Shipmate
# 15917
|
Posted
My workplace has a Dignity atWork policy, which legislates for cases of bullying and harassment. This states that the perception of e victom is the deciding factor, not the imtent of the perpetrator. I think this is intended to stop bullies saying 'oh, I disn't mean it like that - he/she can't take a joke'.
--------------------
“Oh the pointing again. They're screwdrivers! What are you going to do? Assemble a cabinet at them?” ― The Day of the Doctor
Posts: 1189 | From: West of the New Forest | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
My workplace has a Dignity atWork policy, which legislates for cases of bullying and harassment. This states that the perception of e victom is the deciding factor, not the imtent of the perpetrator. I think this is intended to stop bullies saying 'oh, I disn't mean it like that - he/she can't take a joke'.
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies." There is a woman in our church who has been "hurt" by virtually everyone who has ever walked within a hundred yards of her. She expects folks to kowtow to her "feelings" in a way that seems an awful lot like bullying to everyone around her. Adding to her power really would not be a good idea to my mind.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ruudy:
Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I remember the exchange on the other thread mentioned by the OP. I thought it ridiculous to say that the ability of the victim to "walk away" necessarily meant the aggressor's behavior was not bullying.
I said my piece in the sense of me walking away because someone is being a jerk or boor and I don't want to hear it, not in the sense of letting someone run me off because I'm afraid of them. If we were school kids and I was smacking you around on the play ground then I would be a bully even if you could leave. Someone's got to have the ability to harm in order to be a bully, istm.
[ 14. October 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
|
Posted
Necessary but not sufficient for bullying are:
An imbalance of power / A feeling of powerlessness
Offensive behaviour that cannot be ignored
The absence of a realistic escape route
The last is very nuanced; for many people in practice the option of leaving the situation is NOT available, however much it would seem to be a solution. The classic example of this is domestic violence where the perp has so messed with the victim's head that they are unable to cope with the situation. I suspect however it's actually more common than we allow for; forces of culture, self definition and absence of self esteem will often make it hard to walk away. So a definition that focuses on this element is likely to be seriously inadequate in practice.
--------------------
Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
Necessary but not sufficient for bullying are:
An imbalance of power / A feeling of powerlessness
Offensive behaviour that cannot be ignored
The absence of a realistic escape route
The last is very nuanced; for many people in practice the option of leaving the situation is NOT available, however much it would seem to be a solution. The classic example of this is domestic violence where the perp has so messed with the victim's head that they are unable to cope with the situation. I suspect however it's actually more common than we allow for; forces of culture, self definition and absence of self esteem will often make it hard to walk away. So a definition that focuses on this element is likely to be seriously inadequate in practice.
It seems to me that on that last one it is bullying if the bad guy thought he had run you off because you were afraid. If he is sitting there after you left figuring you weren't afraid but just disgusted then, whatever he did, he didn't get away with bullying.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
I'm going to suggest another element--repeated pattern of behavior over time. Otherwise I could call the case of our church member who got jumped, beaten and concussed in an alley last week could call that "bullying," though it was a one time event. (of course I'd call it assault and possibly attempted murder)
My personal preference would be to keep the word's meaning a bit narrow, because words get to be sort of useless when they start being used for everything. Like "gentleman." The word used to refer to a particular class of society, got expanded to refer to anyone who tried to behave in a classy way, and now is used in a zillion settings including the courtroom, for convicted felons! The only thing it tells me reliably any more is that the person is male.
I wouldn't want to see the word "bully" go that route. We already have words like conflict, antagonize, anger, assault, treat unfairly, discriminate, intimidate, attack... At least now, when I use the word to describe real life stuff my family's been involved in, people pretty much know what I mean. Even if the borders of the word's meaning are fuzzy.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
Escape must be defined very broadly if it is to be applied to bullying.
In Lamb Chopped's example, perhaps the individual was trapped in a community by financial, familial, or cultural circumstances.
In the case of a student, escape from a bullying incident may be possible, but escape from school may not be a viable option. One could drop out, but that can hardly be considered escape.
[ 14. October 2012, 22:59: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
The one crucial marker of a bully is that their shit doesn't smell. Ever. It is always the target's problem.
I walked away from an abusive relationship last year. I had to do it by letter and move my stuff out in one go, because it was impossible for me to leave in the decent way by saying to their face that the relationship was over. I had attempted that on two occasions and was stonewalled into submission. I was the only person that my former partner saw apart from her father on anything more than a monthly basis, and she had put a lot of effort into constructing this Ms Perfect image, which frayed considerably at the edges for me when I had to deal with her wrath over my attempts to iron sheets and dust the corners of the rooms.
A bully is very intuitive and understands the strengths and weaknesses of their target. If you are intelligent and compassionate they will do their best to manipulate you into doing their will. I was living in Bristol, but my partner manipulated me into not travelling to London to my brother and family, except on one disastrous occasion, over the ten months I lived with her, to ensure that I was kept under her control.
The last two months, when I realised that I was being manipulated by a woman with serious mental health issues were hellish and I never want to go through with that again.
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ronald Binge
Shipmate
# 9002
|
Posted
Just to add there were other issues rather than ironing and dusting involved.. going into a trance and deciding that I had been a Scottish warrior beheaded at the Battle of Bannockburn was one, another was showing me a New Age video, featuring a former Irish cleric who I knew to be fradulent and proclaiming him to me as some kind of guru was another, attempting to get me to bully my parents into buying me out of a negative equity property..etc etc
--------------------
Older, bearded (but no wiser)
Posts: 477 | From: Brexit's frontline | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Walking away is irrelevant.
The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themseves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.
That doesn't mean running away might not be a good idea - if you need to do it to save yourself, do it. But its pointless to prestend that escaping from a bully means that there is no bullying going on.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies."
I hope that "are" was a kind of shorthand for "might sometimes be".
Or are you really denying that bullying happens and that there are bullies and victims?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themselves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.
I agree 100%. But a much better word than 'victim' is target. Victim implies weakness.
Bullies are very often jealous of their targets, so it's often popular, clever and strong people who are targeted. They will have a vulnerability which the bully exploits.
[ 15. October 2012, 18:36: Message edited by: Boogie ]
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Yeah, but "victims" are every bit as foul as "bullies."
I hope that "are" was a kind of shorthand for "might sometimes be".
Or are you really denying that bullying happens and that there are bullies and victims?
Not at all. I am saying that the fixes are often worse than the problem, because the manipulations go both ways. While it is true that the operative notion includes "might" or the like, rules that are put in place are never flexible, and the tidal wave of anti-bullying propoganda coming from schools and such right now is likely to be very destructive.
I moved at least once a year when I was a boy. As the new kind in school, I was not unfamiliar with being the recipient of unwanted attention by aggressive kids. But I seriously doubt that the world is made a better place by injecting adults with a bureacratic mind-set into the equation.
Part of growing up is learning how to cope with people who don't have your best interests at heart. It would be wonderful if we lived in a world where nobody was unkind, but we don't. Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
--Tom Clune
[ 15. October 2012, 18:55: Message edited by: tclune ]
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
tclune, I can't help feeling that you're overstating your case a bit. Of course, there's the normal mockery of the geek that happens everywhere. I was that geek. It was really just irritating and a bit embarrassing.
But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Who, then, decides whether a situation is bullying or disagreement?
The one declaring themselves as bullied?
The community in its response?
The thought police?
Who makes this assessment, and how?
If, for example, someone places racist comments on your Facebook page, knowing that you as a person of colour will find them offensive, is that bullying or being a jerk?
If someone follows your comments on this page with sexist comments, is that bullying, or being a jerk?
Working through distinctions like this is essential in arriving at definitions.
So how is bullying different from just being a jerk?
I think others have described some key elements in bullying that would distinguish it from general assholery:
- Power differential - at least in many cases, the bully has, or manipulates the target into thinking s/he has, some kind of power the target doesn't - e.g., physical strength, admiration of others (who wouldn't believe the target's claims about the bully), standing in the workplace (seniority, e.g.), etc.
- Repeated behavior
- Some element of manipulation: If the person's just being a jerk, their behavior is probably a lot more random, possibly exhibited to anyone conveniently located at the time, etc. Bullies usually have an agenda, whether it's to make themselves look better than you in others' eyes, getting your lunch money, keeping you afraid of them, or whatever.
How else might we distinguish bullying from just being a jerk?
What other behaviors do we want to distinguish it from? A few have been named already on this thread — assault, abuse; and given the example of a racist slur on a facebook page, I'd add hate crime. What about harassment? Is, e.g., sexual harassment a form of bullying, or is it different?
Hate crime might be a form of bullying. It has among its goals the denial of the target's personhood, citizenship, and/or fundamental rights. It is often repeated, and is used to threaten and intimidate people, to negate their voices and the choices available to them. It seeks to raise the status of the perpetrator's ingroup over and against that of the target. What do people think - is it a form of bullying, or is it entirely something else?
This is for the purpose of more clearly defining what we mean by "bullying."
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
I know what bullying is. What I object to is do-gooders insisting on imposing a "process" on every social difficulty, which only serves to infantilize kids. Kids have been coping with bullies for millennia. It ain't fun, and it can be dangerous. But it is a necessary skill for living in the world. Or so ISTM. Obviously, YMMV.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The distinctive thing about bullying (as opposed to plain ordinary abuse, persecution, or violence) is that the bully does it to reinforce their social status. To prove to themselves, or to others around them, that they are superior to the victim. So if the victim runs away the bully has won. And they'll probably go on to pick on someone else next time.
I agree 100%. But a much better word than 'victim' is target. Victim implies weakness.
Bullies are very often jealous of their targets, so it's often popular, clever and strong people who are targeted. They will have a vulnerability which the bully exploits.
I think that's what a lot of people miss, and it ties into the whole "bully making themselves the victim" thing. The thing is,they really do perceive themselves that way in the first place.SO they point a finger at someone else, and get everyone looking the other way.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Ralphie knew how to cope with a bully.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
Ralphie knew how to cope with a bully.
Just one of many reasons I love that movie. BTW, I got a BB gun as a kid, and it was my favorite possession for years. As luck would have it, I never did shoot my eye out...
--Tom Clune
[ETA: It would have been illegal for me to get my kids a BB gun in this state. I can't say that I feel all that much safer because we have kept them out of the hands of 8-year-olds, but the kids are sure missing a whale of a good time.]
[ 15. October 2012, 19:46: Message edited by: tclune ]
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
But then there's full on bullying which is marked by a whole other level of protracted malice and sadistic intentionality. That stuff is really dangerous.
I know what bullying is. What I object to is do-gooders insisting on imposing a "process" on every social difficulty, which only serves to infantilize kids.
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants. It's called protection.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants.
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
... The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) Tell that to Amanda Todd`s family.
--------------------
"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
Suppose, for the sake of argument, I were to decide that a fellow Shipmate has been bullying me by dropping one-liners as a followup to many of the posts I make, on a variety of threads.
By declaring myself to be a target, does that automatically make that Shipmate a bully, even if he does the same to certain others and has done so since before I joined the boards?
Or does the fact that I am irritated by this posting style and consider myself to be a target fall short of showing him to be a bully?
Obviously here, hosts decide that, but what if by proclaiming myself to be a target, I am permitted thereby to paint him as a bully?
Could the possibility exist that I, not he, was the unreasonable one?
There may have to be shades of grey regarding this issue, and I am not certain those shades of grey are being recognized by all posters here.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
Bullying is always wrong, but it's just about impossible to prevent all of it, just as it's impossible to prevent all theft. It does need to be made clear that it is unacceptable. I think the present concern with bullying is a backlash from the other extreme, which prevailed for many years.
Back then, kids were expected to adjust to the group, and if they were bullied, the problem was that they had failed to adjust. One of my daughters was teased mercilessly because she had eye problems and had to wear dark glasses.
Back before the kids were expected to adjust, the adults imposed rules on how they were supposed to treat each other. Most kids liked the rules, and they told bullies to pick on someone their own size. That's what it was like when I was a child, and it would be nice if we could get back to that.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
... The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Tell that to Amanda Todd`s family.
Well, since you put a couple of angry emoticons on your post and invoked a sad story, I must be wrong.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Well... with most other social skills kids have to learn, they receive endless support and teaching (or drilling) from adults: everything from "please" and "thank you", to how to make the guest list for the birthday party, to behavior on a date. I don't see how it's different to give them support with learning how to respond to a bully, and how not to be a bully yourself. We help them manage their sadness, excitement, envy. Why not aggression and fear?
Also, when bullying escalates to behavior that would actually be criminal if an adult did it, we shouldn't blame the victim for needing help. You wouldn't expect an adult to fight a pack of muggers to get his own wallet back- he would call the police.
I agree that school anti-bullying programs will probably be worse than useless if they're the same type I was subjected to as a kid in the 1980s and 90s: some dull authority figure spouting platitudes once a year in an assembly. Kids are very good at figuring out what rules adults actually intend to enforce.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
Also, when bullying escalates to behavior that would actually be criminal if an adult did it, we shouldn't blame the victim for needing help. You wouldn't expect an adult to fight a pack of muggers to get his own wallet back- he would call the police.
I have no problem with that. An important part of learning to cope is developing a sense of when asking for help is useful and when it will just make things worse. But it seems that the excess of this age is for adults to thrust themselves into every aspect of their kids' lives -- planning every minute of their lives, sheltering them from every knock they need to have to grow into responsible adults; insulating them from so many germs that they fail to develop any immunities of their own; etc. This anti-bullying frenzy strikes me as of a piece with that whole trend. Again, YMMV.
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Some of us read a thread like this and cannot but reflect back to our own experiences. Mine of running home as fast as possible, or if the way was blocked, hiding out until a way was clear. In those days, if a bully was caught, it was assumed it was a "fight", and at school, the strap was the answer because "the rule was the rule": "no fighting". Telling a teacher meant that it would be identified as a fight and the strap. Also schools had the policy to inform parents the strap had been given, and this always resulted in a second whipping at home.
The situation was a little different when I went away to boarding school. The usual was for 2 or 3 older boys to come into a dorm room hold another boy down and punch him repeatedly, usually in the arm, to try to create a nice big bruise. Sometimes the punches were to the body to make the boy puke. Telling a master would result in retaliation form other boys later, usually a general beating up and follow-up bullying and threats to the "rat". I recall one suicide attempt and a faked seizure while I was there. The masters at this school did not use a strap, rather 2˝ or 3 foot boards over the backside. They would sooner paddle than hear explanations. I think they thought it was easier. I always wondered how 10 strokes was the general number. The paddling was always in front of the boys, usually before chapel.
I learned at boarding school that the best thing was to pick any of the attackers and punch in the face as hard, as fast and as many times as possible. This usually resulted in a severe beating, but tended to discourage repeats. There were those who did not retaliate. No other boy would ever intervene, as this brought the violence to them. I still boil when I think of that.
My take on bullying is thus coloured pretty heavily by such experiences, and thus I disagree heartily with Tclune's ideas about bullying: getting used to it. If it is your child whose being bullied, the normal instinct is protective. I have learned that I would do pretty well anything to defend mine.
Also, I think the situation is different for girls versus boys. Boys may bully girls, but they may also sexually attack and assault them. There is a fine line sometimes between bullying and rape.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Letting kids learn to toughen up and develop coping strategies that work for them is not a bad thing. Or so ISTM.
Have a look at my links, above, they are well worth a read - and I think that you'll see why 'weakness' isn't the problem for the targets of bullies. The bully is the weak and insecure person.
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Well, one way to take care of it is to follow the Hollywood moview cliche and bring in a big gun to as an equalizer.
Unfortunate but then, the bullies shoulud just learn to cope with the retaliation.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
We taught our boys to run - like the wind - if attacked. This strategy saved them both from stabbings, on separate and completely unrelated occasions.
I totally agree that we need allow our children to learn as well as to teach them. They need to gain resilience and immunity and discover when to stand up for themselves, when to run and when to call for help.
My only two experiences of bullying was as an adult. One was in an online 'Christian' community. I left - which I found surprisingly difficult as I'd made many friends there, but it was the right thing to do.
The other was much more serious. I was Deputy headteacher and, after two years in the job, the head started bullying me. She started on me after I defended her previous target. I had three vulnerabilities, my dad had just died, my Mum had developed dementia and I was recovering from a hysterectomy. When I stood up to her she began the process of getting rid of me. I kept records - the stuff she did in private was unbelievable while keeping up her public persona (we shared an office). When the standoff eventually arrived I put in a formal complaint of bullying and harassment. After a long investigation she lost her job.
It was a long time ago now, but I still have the occasional flashback - and, given my time again, I would have left the job asap.
I am semi retired now, but took a job in a school last year, found a bullying culture - and left after two days! I felt deeply for those members of staff who didn't have such easy choices.
(Not my present school, which has a supportive, anti-bullying culture - it's a joy to work there)
My experience of bullying as an adult has taught me two things - to spot bullying behaviour quickly and get the hell OUT of there!
(I can't imagine how hard this must be if it happens within a family ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.
I do, however, have a number of issues I'm still working through that resulted from that treatment, all of which have had a negative impact on my adult life.
Tclune speaks, I fear, of what he does not know.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
My feeling about the subject is to ask why on earth the recipient of bullying should learn to cope with it, rather than the bully being made to learn not to do it. If they don't, they go on to do it as adults (like that head teacher - funny how some of them get into that sort of position) and make life hell for others until they are in care homes. (I knew a case like that, where a bunch of nice little old ladies hauled another out of her flatlet into the corridor and laid into her, then denied it when she reported it, and were supported by the warden when she took it to the police. After all, she was known not to be normal, as her attackers were. Unfortunately for them, the attack was witnessed by the local grocer making a delivery, he was believed and the warden was moved.)
There was a piece in the Guardian, of all places, once, in which one writer said it was good for children to experience bullying at school, because it led them to understand their place in the pecking order as adults. And no-one responded. (I didn't because I couldn't find the words, being somewhat gobsmacked.)
When I suffered harassment a few years ago, it was identified as such by a member of the Met, and I found that an identification of actions as harassment depended entirely on my defining it as such, without evidence of intent on the bullies' part. I wasn't happy with that, and did not pursue the matter legally, but did write to say that their supposed amicable communications had appeared to be a campaign of bullying and harassment. They denied this at a meeting, at which point I told them how harassment was defined, which was a mistake. They were then empowered to accuse me of this sort of behaviour, to the extent of writing to Companies House to say it was essential that I as Company Secretary should not be aware of their new address. (This of course made it impossible for me to carry out the unpaid work they, as fellow directors, depended on effectively.)
A solicitor with expertise in neighbour issues said that such people are not worth taking on, as they have done it before, whatever the outcome, they will do it again, so taking them on cannot be seen as protecting others in the future. It will have costs in money, and in health. I was already in a bad state, so it was affecting my school life.
As a teacher, I got to recognise as bullying anything subsequently excused with a sentence beginning either "It was only..." or "It was just..." and probably continuing "a joke", and pointed out that the butt of the so-called joke was not laughing (probably miserable or hiding in the loos).
Learning to cope, while allowing the perpetrators to continue uncontrolled, merely allows the targets to develop low self esteem, and an unhealthy view of their position in life. Not good.
[ 16. October 2012, 16:31: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.
I do, however, have a number of issues I'm still working through that resulted from that treatment, all of which have had a negative impact on my adult life.
Tclune speaks, I fear, of what he does not know.
Tom says upthread that he experienced being bullied as the new kid in a lot of schools- a new place every year. I think that may have a different emotional impact than staying in the same schools and being on the bottom of the social heap year after year, which is what I experienced.
I think there's a difference between "testing" bullying (that is, we don't know who you are yet, let's take a poke at you to see if you're a good chew toy) and "permanent" bullying: we know you're weak and we'll see that you stay that way 'cause you're fun to hurt.
That may be why different adults look back on their encounters with bullying differently. For me it wasn't a case of jockeying for social position or being envied because I was talented or popular (au contraire!). I don't view it as a normal childhood phase because it wasn't a phase; it lasted for about nine years both in school and in extracurriculars like Scouting. It wasn't something I could "cope" with because the effect was to make me feel that I was hopeless, worthless, unlovable- not that I was just a convenient target but that there was something wrong with me at my core and it would never get better. Thank God I had a loving family and church.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Surely infantilising kids is the best thing for them. After all, they are, um, infants.
Why the confusion? Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants. Protecting children from bullying allows them to enjoy a childhood that might otherwise be marred by protracted periods of pain and confusion.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Protecting children doesn't infantilise them: they're already infants.
Are you a native speaker of English?
--Tom Clune
--------------------
This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
Sob!
Won't somebody please think of the adults?
Kids being bullied in school is no small issue, but what of adults bullied online, at work, in church, on crowded elevators or subway cars?
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Loquacious beachcomber:
Sob!
Won't somebody please think of the adults?
Kids being bullied in school is no small issue, but what of adults bullied online, at work, in church, on crowded elevators or subway cars?
All my links were for adults who are being bullied LB.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
Back to your original question -
It's bullying if you are subject to
quote:
- constant nit-picking, fault-finding and criticism of a trivial nature - the triviality, regularity and frequency betray bullying; often there is a grain of truth (but only a grain) in the criticism to fool you into believing the criticism has validity, which it does not; often, the criticism is based on distortion, misrepresentation or fabrication
simultaneous with the criticism.
- a constant refusal to acknowledge you and your contributions and achievements or to recognise your existence and value
- constant attempts to undermine you and your position, status, worth, value and potential
where you are in a group (eg at work), being singled out and treated differently; for instance, everyone else can get away with murder but the moment you put a foot wrong - however trivial - action is taken against you
- being isolated and separated from colleagues, excluded from what's going on, marginalized, overruled, ignored, sidelined, frozen out, sent to Coventry
- being belittled, demeaned and patronised, especially in front of others
From the site I linked to. I think the operative word is 'constant'.
Like I said earlier, if the bullying is online - best thing imo, is to leave the community. Not easy but better for your mental health in the long run. That's what I did, and kept in touch with the friends I'd made by FB.
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
Thanks, Boogie; and of course, any Shipmate is unconditionally free to discuss whatever age and type of bullying they wish to; within the Host's supervision, once a thread is begun, it belongs to those posting on it.
However, since the cyber-bullying thread on this forum seems to be talking mainly about bullying of a younger age group, perhaps this one provides room for issues of adult bullying of adults without that issue disrupting the cyber-bullying thread.
Or not, as seems wise to whomever is inclined to post.
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have yet to find any situation in the real world that is in any way as unpleasant as the treatment I got from some of my peers at school, and for which that treatment in any way prepared me.
Same here.
But then I've never had anything to do with the army or prisons, which are the obvious comparisonsm because oif their heirarchical nature, clearly defined packing orders, and violently enforced compulsion. Workplaces can get nasty but if they got as nasty as a typical school the courts would get involved.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Loquacious beachcomber
Shipmate
# 8783
|
Posted
bump
--------------------
TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)
Posts: 5954 | From: Southeast of Wawa, between the beach and the hiking trail.. | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
It doesn't matter. The kid being bullied needs to learn to cope.
--Tom Clune
Kids need to learn any number of things. I'm at a loss to think of another situation where a kid's need to learn is said to justify a teacher's looking the other way.
--------------------
Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
