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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 'Prayer blockages'?
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Komensky
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# 8675
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Posted
Where and when did the notion of 'blockages to prayer' emerge? Is there a theology behind it? I stumbled across a book by Bill Hybels the other day and it was full of references to things in our lives which may 'block' answers to prayer. In short, if your prayers aren't being answered, it's probably because you have some unaddressed sin or unresolved relationships in your life. This sounds like claptrap to me, but is there a theology behind it? From what I can tell, it emerged in charismatic circles in the US, but is not pretty common in charismatic parts of the C of E.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Sounds like rubbish to me as well. Not that I haven't heard this sort of stuff before. IMNAAHO, prayers aren't answered because some prayer is an attempt to avoid the simple fact that Shit Happens.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
*or rather is 'now pretty common'. Curse you edit window.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Why, then, do people read this shit, nod their heads and think 'yes, this makes sense!'. I guess the same reason that people get tea leaves read, or tarot cards and the like. They *want* to believe that the miracle answer is nearly at hand, but the authors of this stuff ensure that they never actually get it.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I was only thinking this morning of the 'theology' you get about demons controlling geographical areas, the whole thing built on one obscure verse in Daniel (Daniel 10:13). I wonder if this sort of "God can't do it even though he wants to because..." thing, in this case built perhaps on (again, just two verses) Mark 6 vv 5-6
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
Did sin stop Jesus answering requests for healing or help ? No. In fact Jesus didn't ask for repentance first at all. What he did ask for was some confidence in him that he was a good person and would do good things even if they didn't deserve it. This is a concept most churched people can't seem to get their heads round. I've listened to a lot of different sermons over the years, and none of them would have inspired the reaction Jesus got from the Centurion who simply believed Jesus would heal his servant, or the blind man who screamed out knowing Jesus would heal him despite being a sinner. Its always, you aren't good enough, do more (for my church...).
In the Old Testament there was a concept of repentance and God answering - but the sins were very specific. Oppression of the poor, violence, murder etc. The sins most of these books go on about are much lesser moral 'failings'. Most of the time they are sins that aren't even listed in the Bible as sin ! Its almost as if organized religion has to add to the list of sins to keep the flock feeling guilty and controllable (Sounds a lot like the Pharisees ?!).
Posts: 157 | From: London | Registered: Aug 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, Arminian, there's also a school of thought which suggests that the Centurion's servant may have been some kind of homosexual sex-slave ... which adds another dimension to all of this - and also potentially takes it into Dead Horse territory ...
But remaining Purgatorial, I think the basis of this kind of thinking is based on several passages which are used to explain why things might not work out the way we might like:
- Charismatics will often point out that Jesus couldn't do many miracles in Nazareth because of the people's 'lack of faith' - therefore it's the people's fault (a very convenient get-out clause for leaders in some charismatic churches I've found).
- We have to ask according to God's will, 'if we ask anything according to his will he hears us and if he hears us we know that we will have what we have asked of him ...' type of thing (quoting from memory).
- The incident in Daniel where the archangel Gabriel is apparently delayed when coming in answer to Daniel's prayers because of opposition in the 'heavenly realms' as it were.
I think a lot of it comes down to the apparent 'lack of results' compared with the level of expectations. Only this morning I had an email from an earnest lone-wolf charismatic saying that if he was a church leader he'd be asking serious questions as to why we don't see 'demonstrations of the Spirit's power' on any grand scale (as he sees it).
'Why aren't we seeing what it says on the tin?' he asks.
The question only arises if we, rightly or wrongly, believe that:
- The miracles, signs and wonders and providences in the Bible are actual historical events.
- And that we are to expect such things - or even greater things, today.
That then gets reduced to a somewhat binary formula:
- We're seeing signs and wonders because we have faith.
- You aren't so you don't have faith.
Hence the pressure and strain in some quarters to lower the bar to allow almost anything through as a putative sign or a wonder - even normal, everyday occurrences or things that can easily be accounted for in non-explicitly miraculous ways.
That doesn't let the rest of us off the hook though ... one of the things Jesus seemed to rebuke people for was their lack of faith ...
I'm sure there's a 'germ' of truth in the Bill Hybels thing, but again, as I so often say (I'm afraid) it gets over-egged out of proportion.
We can under-egg things too, though, in the opposite direction and this is where the practical Deism charge comes in and can have credence.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Oi, Gam, I was first with both those passages!
Thought you'd be on this one before long ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
For me (Buddhist), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes I need to make in myself in order to be suited to a desired effect. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to making such change.
Does that idea have a parallel in Christian theology?
Yes. It's the bit none of us does very well, I think. But I don't think that's the sort of prayer that's being addressed by the theology* referenced in the OP
*that's theology as in "more full of screwed up theology than the wastepaper basket at a Bible school."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Gamaliel - having my roots in S Wales, I know all about the hwyll. This is the (divine?) inspiration that descends on a preacher, enabling him to declaim for hours, without notes, on his chosen topic. Resist it, boyo.
(I say this as someone who very much enjoys your posts, and thinks it is important to see both sides of an argument. But, if you react every time certain topics come up, you make it easier for some people to write you off.)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
The verses in Mark, nor the ones given by Gamiel suggest to me that a clear conclusion should be that prayer isn't answered because of some kind of 'blockage'.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
I have wondered if it doesn't come from James 5:16 (KJV used here)
quote:
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
If the fervent prayer of a righteous man sways God, and your prayers are getting nowhere, perhaps the problem is that you're just not righteous enough, or you have unconfessed faults (sins), or so the "theology" goes.
There's certainly some basis in truth here, but I think that "theology" is proof-texting like crazy.
[ 25. January 2013, 13:48: Message edited by: monkeylizard ]
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Perhaps then ML, that passage is at the same time the source of the related idea that prayer itself is a kind of 'power', that can be harnessed and used 'successfully', provided you fit the bill?
All rather strange to me…
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
I have wondered if it doesn't come from James 5:16 (KJV used here)
quote:
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
If the fervent prayer of a righteous man sways God, and your prayers are getting nowhere, perhaps the problem is that you're just not righteous enough, or you have unconfessed faults (sins), or so the "theology" goes.
There's certainly some basis in truth here, but I think that "theology" is proof-texting like crazy.
In my former evangelical days, this concept was used a lot (and the word righteous is in there in both the NIV and the ESV, and indeed the NRSV - not that the NRSV would have been touched by a bargepole by this church, but I digress). Your prayers only worked if you were 'right with God'. Of course, when your relationship with God is done in your head, so to speak, without explicit absolution (as it is in evangelical circles), it's very easy to think of all the ways in which you're not right with God and why your prayers might not work.
Then of course, you get those (often KJV-only but not always) who think that women who pray without covering their heads won't get their prayers answered... ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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monkeylizard
Ship's scurvy
# 952
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Posted
I've heard it cited by folks who subscribe to the name-it-an-claim-it theology. They would seem to be related to me. The blockage idea simply gives an out for when those name-it-and-claim-it prayers aren't working. The problem then must be some unresolved sin in your life keeping you from being righteous enough to have powerful and effective prayers.
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The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. ~ Herbert Spencer (1820 - 1903)
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:
I've heard it cited by folks who subscribe to the name-it-an-claim-it theology. They would seem to be related to me. The blockage idea simply gives an out for when those name-it-and-claim-it prayers aren't working. The problem then must be some unresolved sin in your life keeping you from being righteous enough to have powerful and effective prayers.
And gives some people an excuse to say, "And we can help you remove those blockages! Just buy our book, pay to come to our seminar, and provide a love offering to the minister..."
Just because you didn't get the answer you wanted in prayer doesn't mean you didn't get an answer. Why can't people understand sometimes God just says "No"?
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
@Robert Armin - ok, you've nailed me. The hwyl got me where I am today and I'm trying to hwyl my way out of it (haul my way out of it, geddit? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) - not that hwyl is pronounced like 'haul').
Goperryrevs has also noted that I'm drawn to these sort of topics like a fly to shit.
Must.re.sist.
Kinnock could be a wind-bag and so can I.
It doesn't go down very well outside the Principality.
I've been wondering about giving up the Ship for Lent - when it comes - but perhaps a less extreme course of action would be for me to declare a self-imposed moritorium on posting on topics like this - unless I've got anything new to say.
How does that sound? (I'll get trampled, I can hear the heads nodding from here).
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
So unless anyone can think of any good reason why I should be reprieved I will declare a hwyl-free zone and impose a moritorium on myself on posting on charismatic/evangelical topics from midnight tonight ('sooner ... sooner ...! ' they clamour.
So unless anyone can think of a reason for a reprieve?
....
I'll take that as a 'Yes' then. Here it is. Self-imposed moritorium starting this evening.
I can feel the cold turkey coming ... but it'll do me good ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ10wLxSYUs
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If we accept the reasoning of this concept, it would seem that some prayers are more worthy than others. I think it is more like this with prayer: God hears or not, but prayers are like an offering of music or a comfort of some other kind, they soothe and help to bear what ever is occurring. The reality stays the same (or changes for non-prayer related reasons) even if some magical thinking wants to consider otherwise.
Thus if someone feels they have a blockage, the problem is not with God hearing and doing, it is with the expectation of what they think God should do, and magical thinking about miracles having caused misinterpretation of past 'granted' prayers.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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AberVicar
Mornington Star
# 16451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It doesn't go down very well outside the Principality.
Implying long-windedness goes down well here? More often with speakers than with listeners, in my experience...
The elephant in the room is the idea that prayer is a transaction, while in fact it is part of a relationship. 'Blockages' (horrid term) occur when things get one-sided or exploitative.
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Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, make sure you are not, in fact, just surrounded by assholes.
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
Gamaliel How long does self imposed the ban last for?
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Good question, barrea.
How long would you like?
The charismatic answer would be, 'until I feel the Lord tell me ...'
The pragmatic answer is, 'until I can't resist having my two-happ'orth.'
In which case, not very long ...
Perhaps we ought to start a 'sweep' to see how long it lasts?
I think the key is 'unless I've got something new to say.' If there's anything new or startling (I doubt it) that I could add within a few weeks I'll do so. But if not, I'll hold my tongue.
Best all round.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I don't think that there are any 'blockages' in prayer, but that depends how we understand prayer. If prayer is simply a matter of vending machine type requests, then, yes, a refusal may cause one to consider the blockage theory. But surely prayer is so much more than that. Asking God to give you understanding as to why things remain as they are, is also a form of prayer. Communion with God in suffering and trials and prolonged periods of deprivation involves a type of prayer.
There is no blockage to our relationship with God (other than a refusal to have that relationship in the first place!), since "nothing can separate us from the love of God". Prayer is, of course, essential to the maintenance of that relationship.
I think many people in the charismatic scene have reduced the Christian life to a form of witchcraft: cast your spell (say the right form of words in prayer) and you'll get a result. I really don't think I am being spiritually presumptuous by saying that I don't think God is terribly impressed by that kind of spirituality!
There is suffering in life. It seems to me that well over 50% (or maybe 90%!) of the Christian life seems to be involved in trying to come to terms with that reality in a relationship with God.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
May I give a somewhat more worldly and cynical reason for the theology of "prayer blockages"?
I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills. And that would have exposed them to prosecution under the statues against fraud, except that they always tacked on a quick statement at the end, to the effect that it is God Who heals, and He may not always choose to.
In other words, the miracle-workers added a disclaimer that kept them out of trouble with the law. Could "prayer blockages" be invoked for similar reasons?
I honestly think more miracle-workers than we'd like are simple fraudsters preying on the poor and gullible, the people in most desperate need.
[ 25. January 2013, 18:20: Message edited by: Grammatica ]
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
May I give a somewhat more worldly and cynical reason for the theology of "prayer blockages"?
I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills. And that would have exposed them to prosecution under the statues against fraud, except that they always tacked on a quick statement at the end, to the effect that it is God Who heals, and He may not always choose to.
In other words, the miracle-workers added a disclaimer that kept them out of trouble with the law. Could "prayer blockages" be invoked for similar reasons?
I honestly think more miracle-workers than we'd like are simple fraudsters preying on the poor and gullible, the people in most desperate need.
While I don't doubt that this is true, I have also heard reference to 'prayer blockages' in only mildly charismatic churches where that kind of miracle-working doesn't happen, and also in cessationist churches strangely enough. I think it's also a symptom of an over-intellectualised sort of Christianity where you have to do it all in your head, and worrying about your salvation is a result of that, or at least thinking that God won't answer your prayers due to your sinfulness. Certainly, many evangelical churches turn faith into a kind of works, and not just the name-it-and-claim-it kind, it's more subtle than that.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
"Prayer blockage"? Sounds painful. Perhaps some spiritual fiber would help things pass through more smoothly. ;-)
Sorry...I tried to resist, but that's all I keep thinking when I see this thread title.
[ 25. January 2013, 22:55: Message edited by: Anyuta ]
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
For me it seems sort of logical that sin might cause a block in prayer but its not something I have really thought through more something I have assumed without thinking about that hard so its interesting to see people taking the opposite view that this appears totally illogical as an instictive reaction probably without having thought it through that hard either!
Now I am thinking about it however two passages I am aware of that might be relevent to the discussion:
In John's gospel (chapter 15) Jesus talks about remaining in the vine as a condition for answered prayer. Perhaps this is partly behind the theology - although there is the issue of interpreting what remaining in the vine means, it does seem though from John 15 to be connected to obeying Jesus's commandments.
1 Peter 3:7 in talking about how husbands act towards their wives says "treat her as you should so your prayers will not be hindered" - so Peter or whoever in the early church wrote 1 Peter believed that treating your wife badly could be a block to prayer.
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
I also think some of the prophetic books make the point that there is no point calling on God to help you if you are exploiting the poor at the same time.
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
I have heard wonder-working ministers of the charismatic kind proclaiming at length that they possessed miraculous powers to heal all the congregation's ills.
Yes, and some of them have performed their "wonders" and received "miraculous answers to prayer" even while they have been involved in sexual sin or financial corruption. Not true of everyone of course.
Having said that, and still believing in the absolute grace of God in the whole process, I do feel there must be some link between known and unrepented sin in the person praying, and ineffectuality in their prayers. But this can't be quantified.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Christianity is supposed to help people who are troubled. Those Christians who put obstacles in the way of the troubled and vulnerable, by filling their heads with extra worries ('you don't have enough faith', 'you are stopping the miracles by your sin', 'you have allowed demons to enter you', etc. etc.) are the ones who are causing a blockage, and - I suspect - are the ones referred to as 'putting a millstone round their necks' by Jesus himself: It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he was cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble. But I bet they don't see it that way. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
For me it seems sort of logical that sin might cause a block in prayer but its not something I have really thought through
I see.
[Quote]
In John's gospel (chapter 15) Jesus talks about remaining in the vine as a condition for answered prayer. Perhaps this is partly behind the theology - although there is the issue of interpreting what remaining in the vine means, it does seem though from John 15 to be connected to obeying Jesus's commandments.[/QB]
What? How do you read that interpretation into the parable?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Part of this is bogged down in the belief that prayer, like faith, is some kid of positive force that we can harness and wield. Both are supposed to guarantee results and if you don't get them, you must be doing in wrong or, more likely, having something wrong with your inner being. This kind of guff often rides close to the prosperity gospel; even if it doesn't promise money, is assures you that if you get it right, God will make you happy and healthy at least.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
Komesnky: John 15:7 is part of the same discourse as the vine and the branches. In the NIV it reads "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish and it will be given you..." verse 10 reads "if you obey my commands you will remain in my love".
My interpretation is that remaining in the vine i.e. Jesus is at least partly connected to obeying his commands, and that one of the results of remaining in Jesus is that our prayer is more likely to be answered.
I don't think this is any sort of special power slot machine type thing that you refer to in fact it is the opposite. What I am saying is that "effective prayer" and by that I mean prayer which changes stuff either in us, in others or in the world around us; springs out of relationship with God and that relationship may be impaired or blocked to some extent if we are living in rebellion against God in some area and are not prepared to repent.
I am suggesting this tenatatively but I am not at all sure why you consider this to be crazy or why you think this means I am a prosperity gospel advocate.
What's your interpretation of this passage? Also what's your interpretation of the verse in 1 Peter which talks about treating your wife well so that "your prayers are not hindered"?
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I had a sudden flash upthread of a sign reading something like "Please be careful how and what you pray for, as a refusal often offends".
I'm not sure I should have shared that!
I haven't come across the concept of blockage, but I should think the idea of God being prevented from doing something is postulating a power greater, and therefore very bad theology indeed.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Or simply postulating that he has chosen to allow himself to be "blocked" (e.g. by the free will he gave to creatures previously), much as I am "blocked" from being helpful by my son's free choice not to let me look over his homework, even though it was I who gave him the option.
But I don't really like the word "blockage" because it sounds to me like a mechanical problem, as if prayer were some kind of automatic do-this, get-this process. And instead it's one person interacting with another, either of whom may say "no" or make the interaction difficult in some other way.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
For me (Buddhist), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes I need to make in myself in order to be suited to a desired effect. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to making such change.
Does that idea have a parallel in Christian theology?
Deists would relate to that.
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
@kankucho:
For me (Swedenborgian), prayer is a process of opening up to the changes God needs to make in me in order for me to be suited to receiving his love and passing it on to people around me. I can only conceive of 'blockages' as an inner resistance to accepting such change.
Does that idea qualify as a parallel?
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Gamaliel - I would hate you to stop posting altogether, even for a short while, as I enjoy your posts. But how about giving up posting on charismatic threads for Lent? (And then you could have a glorious rant on Easter Day!)
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
Is this a specifically charismatic thing? It didn't seem like--even if it includes them. Worth a little chin wag, surely?
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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