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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hymnals and Song Books
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I understand that the panel that decided what was going in Methodist hymns old and new had no Methodists on it! I think it's a good rule of thumb to avoid hymn books published by Kevin Mayhew.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Yet the blasted Hymns O&N seems to get everywhere. Why? How? It's as much of a mystery as Radio 4's annual recommissioning of Quote Unquote. Everyone knows it's crap: no-one likes it; but it still survives. Only explanation I can think of is that Kevin Mayhew have hacked into the secret archives at Lambeth Palace, the RSCM, Methodist Church House, etc, and have something 'on' large numbers of clergy and choirmasters, which they will keep quiet in return for bulk purchases of their horrible books.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
When it comes to hymn books we still use a combination of A&M Revised, One Hundred Hymns for Today and (oddly) Songs of God's People.
However... we have a CCL licence and just print other hymns as and when we want them. Sometimes in the notice sheet, sometimes on a seperate sheet if there's too many to fit on the notice sheet. I have a copy of the Hymnquest software at home which means I can find the texts to all mainstream hymnbooks (plus quite a few wierd and wonderful ones.)
I don't see us buying another hymn book when we can print hymns whenever we like. Perhaps copies for the choir maybe, but then, we have the CCL music reproduction licence as well.
With regard to mixing trad and modern music styles - I think it depends on context. At my Uni chapel (where I was organ scholar) I would happily finish conducting the choir in a piece of Tallis or Stanford or whatever, and then go and pick up my Sax to play in the music group (which was stacked with highly talented musicians.)
In my current church, which is in a city, the music is more monochrome (basically choral, trad, but with a bit of modern thrown in to keep things fresh.) I think that city churches tend to be more monochrome because people will travel go to a church with fits the niche which they prefer. In a village (or a university for that matter) where you're trying to cater for a broader community within one establishment, variety is easier to implement and, I think, more likely to be tolerated.
[ETA - I agree about Hymns O&N - the selection of hymns is okay, but the word changing annoys the sh1t out of me, and the musical arrangements are dire.]
[ 20. December 2011, 12:32: Message edited by: Saviour Tortoise ]
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Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Sorry to see that so many advocate printing hymns / songs.
The best reason for using a projector and screen (given the warnings above) is the saving of forests.
Please!
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
One Hundred Hymns for Today
Is that the one with "God of concrete, God of steel" in it, with a cover designed to match the 1976 Daily Office Revised?
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"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt
Posts: 6917 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dyfrig:
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
One Hundred Hymns for Today
Is that the one with "God of concrete, God of steel" in it, with a cover designed to match the 1976 Daily Office Revised?
Oh yes indeedy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It's not all terrible. It's got "And didst thou travel light" for example, which can be done very effectively to the RVW version of Kingsfold (otherwise known as Dives and Lazarus)
Actually, come to think of it, I like quite a lot of that Hymn Book, but there are some real stinkers too.
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Baptised not Lobotomised
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
The number of good hymns written in the years between 1906 and 1986 is negligible.
You've counted them?
'Thine be the glory' is an obvious one (written before 1906, but not translated until the 1920s). I'd be tempted to include 'Morning has broken' and 'Lord of all hopefulness', if only out of nostalgia for my schooldays.
I'm struggling to think of many others. Certainly the collective efforts of every hymnographer working in the twentieth century produced far fewer hymns of quality a J.M. Neale did individually. Of course, Neale's contributions are primarily translations, but writing a good verse translation is as much an art as writing a new hymn (and an art at which even Neale occasionally, as with his curiously lifeless translation of 'Corde natus ex parentis').
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
Posts: 61 | From: Between the idea/ And the reality/ Between the motion/ And the act | Registered: Dec 2011
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Also "Lord of the boundless curves of space" which someone who claims to understand cosmology tells me is dodgy science. Also lots by Fred Pratt Greene, who was probably a lovely man, but whose hymns strike me as platitudinous and bathetic.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
My last post crossed with RBQ. I was referring to 100 Hymns for today.
"Lord Jesus Christ, you have come to us" is a sound eucharistic hymn.
"Tell out my soul" irritates me. It manages to omit both our Lady and the revolutionary politics - the rich are no longer sent away. And the tune is so hearty.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Right-Believing Queen
Shipmate
# 16832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
"Tell out my soul" irritates me. It manages to omit both our Lady and the revolutionary politics - the rich are no longer sent away. And the tune is so hearty.
What part of quote:
Tell out, my soul, the greatness of his might!
Powers and dominions lay their glory by.
Proud hearts and stubborn wills are put to flight,
the hungry fed, the humble lifted high.
Is not revolutionary? As for Mary: well, one is supposed to know the authorship, just as one is supposed to know that 'Thou bearer of th’eternal Word' refers to the Theotókos in 'Ye watchers and ye holy ones'.
Mind you, 'Tell out my soul' suffers from overuse by churches that would never dare use a hymn like 'Hail, holy Queen enthroned above' (which happens to be one of my favourites, and not only because it warms the heart to see ministers removing their birettas for every 'Maria').
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'You know, speaking disrespectfully of Calvinists is the same thing as speaking honourably of the Church.'— Letter from Lady Mary Wortley Montagu to Mrs Sarah Chiswell, Aug. 13 (O.S.), 1716.
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
My last post crossed with RBQ. I was referring to 100 Hymns for today.
"Lord Jesus Christ, you have come to us" is a sound eucharistic hymn.
"Tell out my soul" irritates me. It manages to omit both our Lady and the revolutionary politics - the rich are no longer sent away. And the tune is so hearty.
I think that's a bit mean. I agree it doesn't convey all the meaning of the Magnificat, but I think it's a good hymn in it's own right.
We use the tune for other words as well. ("Go forth and tell", for example.)
"Lord of all hopefulness" is in there too. "All my hope on God is founded" - wouldn't be without that.
In general, I think it's a pretty good book marred by some real dreadfulness.
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Baptised not Lobotomised
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
A problem with using a data projector to provide the words of hymns, songs or liturgy is that it creates a single point of failure... breakdown of your projector...operator puts the next verse of the song up half-way through the first line, or gets the verse mixed up with the chorus so the worship group and the congregation sing different words, or any other variety of cock-up, ...destroying an atmosphere of coherent worship. (Been there, experienced that. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
Last Sunday choir sang from hymnal, congregation from projector. Hymnal had 4 verses, projector operator pulled the hymn's words from the web and had 3 verses, his 3rd verse didn't match any of the hymnal verses.
Lots of things can go wrong when using projectors.
But another issue is: all that expensive re-sellable equipment means the hall has to be kept locked at all times. No dropping in for prayer, no all night vigils with perhaps only one person at times, too risky that a thief might come in the night bop the one person praying on the head and make off with the audio-visual system.
If the church is kept locked anyway, no big deal, if it's traditionally kept open sometimes other than during a scheduled program, potentially huge change in how people relate to the church.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Also "Lord of the boundless curves of space" which someone who claims to understand cosmology tells me is dodgy science. Also lots by Fred Pratt Greene, who was probably a lovely man, but whose hymns strike me as platitudinous and bathetic.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that about Fred Pratt Green. I've always felt a bit guilty about disliking his hymns as much as I do. I think his poem 'The Old Couple' (in the Oxford Book of C20 English verse) is rather better than most of his hymns, though.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
Other changes are also very dubious: why is the woodland in 'Hail, thee festival day' not gay with leaves but instead green with them, which seems somewhat self-evident.
I would have thought the reason for the change is self-evident!
The trouble with NEH is that it is neither one thing nor the other. It came out before Common Worship so that the liturgical section, in particular, is more or less unusable, and it does not relate well to the lectionary. I would prefer to use the old EH plus a modern supplement.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree that the first half of the C20 + a bit was a relative dead period for hymns. There aren't even proportionately as many really dire ones from that period as either the C19 or the present day.
I realise that 1906 and 1986 are chosen as the dates of publication of the English Hymnal and its New successor, but I think 1986 is a bit late to mark as the end of the desert years.
Perhaps that's why, though, we now grumble about the quality of current hymn books. The older among us grew up when there was almost a canon of hymns. No one was producing much that might be worth singing but wasn't in the books already.
I'm puzzled by the criticism of 'Tell out my soul' for not mentioning Mary. I like it as a hymn but am never sure it quite catches the feel of the Magnificat. But 'My soul doth magnify the Lord' doesn't mention Mary either. The reason is simple and obvious. She's saying it. Most of us don't usually mention ourselves by name when we are speaking.
On the opportunity to come clean and admit which hymnwriters' work just don't do it for us, I'd confess that for me it's Fred Kaan. Again, I'm sure he was a very good man. Yet all of his hymns that I've encountered feel as though they are getting us to sing the worthy thoughts we ought to be thinking rather than expressing either where we really are or that we are coming before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
If it's time for confessions, another one. I dislike the hymn book we use. It's seriously weak in a large number of ways. But I don't want to suggest changing it, since at the moment it's so bad we have to supplement it with screens and handouts. If we spent all that money on new books, we'd be expected to tie ourselves to them. As far as I know, there isn't a decent book on the market that covers everything one needs, contains art least most of the traditional corpus, includes modern material but has resisted the temptation to wreck all its material written before about 1970.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
On the opportunity to come clean and admit which hymnwriters' work just don't do it for us, I'd confess that for me it's Fred Kaan. Again, I'm sure he was a very good man. Yet all of his hymns that I've encountered feel as though they are getting us to sing the worthy thoughts we ought to be thinking rather than expressing either where we really are or that we are coming before the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
I think another writer in this category, despite my earlier praise for him as an inspirer and animator of singing, is John Bell. His texts are excellent reflections and meditations on the meaning of the Gospel, but seem a bit too laboured, and a bit too 'worthy' to be sung as hymns. I'm all for being politically radical as well as politically correct, but liturgy – as opposed to preaching – needs to express common ground rather than be challenging.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
/QUOTE] I would prefer to use the old EH plus a modern supplement.
Yes indeed, but some hope. I was at a church using the 1950s A & M when NEH was introduced and I was so glad to sing from it instead. I don't care a bit for "One in love and one in glory" in place of "Consubstantial coeternal".
I don't mind a bit of Graham Kendrick from time to time, honestly. (And yes, RTQ, the way "Tell out" is used rather than anything specifically Marian - and used when the Magnificat is the text in the subsequent gospel, - these are both reasons I don't care for it.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oxonian Ecclesiastic
Shipmate
# 12722
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Posted
I can't remember who it was who said that 'one in love and one in splendour' made the Sacred Trinity sound like the Beverley Sisters, but (s)he was spot on.
Although I am an Anglican priest, I think the best hymn book is the 1977 edition of 'Christian Hymns'. 'Sing Glory' is not bad as a modern collection, but I am changing my mind about modernizing the words to old hymns, and I think I am now broadly against it: although it is a policy which has brought substantial improvement to some texts, it has wrecked others; and no one will agree about which texts have been improved and which weakened.
'Common Praise' (the English one, not the Canadian one) has a good selection but is a disappointment because of the poor editing. What '61, 62' is about, I know not. And several hymns are in the wrong sections: a hymn which is exclusively about the Blessèd Virgin Mary is unaccountably in the 'Saints' section, and several hymns are in the Communion section which are better considered 'General'. But the biggest howler is the book's implication that Charles Wesley's 'Glory be to God on high' is a metrical Gloria.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oxonian Ecclesiastic:
I can't remember who it was who said that 'one in love and one in splendour' made the Sacred Trinity sound like the Beverley Sisters, but (s)he was spot on.
Giggle. Love it.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
Got to agree with the previous posts on Fred Kahn, Fred Pratt Green and John Bell. I use them, 'cause some people seem to like them, but good theology doesn't always make for good poetry. It can all be a little bit prosaic.
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Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Last Sunday choir sang from hymnal, congregation from projector. Hymnal had 4 verses, projector operator pulled the hymn's words from the web and had 3 verses, his 3rd verse didn't match any of the hymnal verses.
Lots of things can go wrong when using projectors.
But another issue is: all that expensive re-sellable equipment means the hall has to be kept locked at all times. No dropping in for prayer, no all night vigils with perhaps only one person at times, too risky that a thief might come in the night bop the one person praying on the head and make off with the audio-visual system.
If the church is kept locked anyway, no big deal, if it's traditionally kept open sometimes other than during a scheduled program, potentially huge change in how people relate to the church.
Sorry for the double post, but...
iPads for choir and congregation is the answer!
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Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Last Sunday choir sang from hymnal, congregation from projector. Hymnal had 4 verses, projector operator pulled the hymn's words from the web and had 3 verses, his 3rd verse didn't match any of the hymnal verses.
Lots of things can go wrong when using projectors.
But another issue is: all that expensive re-sellable equipment means the hall has to be kept locked at all times. No dropping in for prayer, no all night vigils with perhaps only one person at times, too risky that a thief might come in the night bop the one person praying on the head and make off with the audio-visual system.
If the church is kept locked anyway, no big deal, if it's traditionally kept open sometimes other than during a scheduled program, potentially huge change in how people relate to the church.
Sorry for the double post, but...
iPads for choir and congregation is the answer!
Spot on. But ahead of your time!
[ 20. December 2011, 18:33: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
Got to agree with the previous posts on Fred Kahn, Fred Pratt Green and John Bell.
[Pedant mode]
It's Fred Kaan
[/Pedant mode]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Saviour Tortoise
Shipmate
# 4660
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Saviour Tortoise:
Got to agree with the previous posts on Fred Kahn, Fred Pratt Green and John Bell.
[Pedant mode]
It's Fred Kaan
[/Pedant mode]
Sorry - always have been a useless speller. And I appreciate pedantry. Pedantry is good.
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Baptised not Lobotomised
Posts: 745 | From: Bath, UK | Registered: Jun 2003
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
quote:
My particular pet peeve, other than the inexplicable decision not to follow the English Hymnal's practice of including original titles (except in the case of Latin hymns)
RBQ
I couldn't agree more. The Church Hymnary, now in its fourth incarnation, continues as before to print the original opening words of all translated hymns. You appear to take a dim view of Calvinists, but on this point at least they maintain your scholarly standards ... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by venbede:
Mind you, 'Tell out my soul' suffers from overuse by churches that would never dare use a hymn like 'Hail, holy Queen enthroned above' (which happens to be one of my favourites, and not only because it warms the heart to see ministers removing their birettas for every 'Maria').
Of course not, "Tell out my Soul" is close enough to a paraphrase of a Biblical text! "Hail, Holy Queen throned above" draws on little biblical material even for me.
Similarly these churches will often actually sing "Lord Jesus Christ, you have come to us" which is according to my Roman Catholic friend a Marian hymn because has Jesus as much as "Mary's son" as "Son of God".
Protestants don't choose hymns because they are or are not Catholic but because they fit with their own tradition. Part of the genius of "Tell out my soul" is it fits with our tradition as well as the Catholic.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Jengie - I think there's some wire crossing going on here.
I can imagine "Tell out my soul" working well as a general hymn - apart from the tune: see below.
However I (and probably RTQ) have never come across it used like that. It rolls up, almost inevitably, for feasts of Our Lady or occasions associated with her, like Advent 4 when I heard it recently. It seems a bit apologetic and unimaginative to use it nearly every time.
Tune - originally in Public School Hymn Book and knowing that it sounds ever so hearty to me, redolent of cold showers and cross country runs.
Liturgical use - I've come across it as a metrical Magnificat at Evening Prayer, which is OK.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Venbede
Tune - originally in Public School Hymn Book and knowing that it sounds ever so hearty to me, redolent of cold showers and cross country runs.
That's well guessed. Look at this.
Mind, he had some distinguished pupils.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
Well, I got a look at the parish's new hymnal yesterday (The St.Michael hymnal). It's a nice solid, hardbound book in blue. The pages are a nice heavy weight. The hymns are in alphabetical order rather than topical or seasonal, and I actually find that to be easier.
The hymn selection is wonderful and very broad, something it has as an advantage over the Adoremus hymnal. (Which ha a nice selection but it woefully small.) That said, I'm sort of sad to see our old red hymnals go, even if the texts often aggravated parishioners and the tunes aggravated the choir members.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
Well, I got a look at the parish's new hymnal yesterday (The St.Michael hymnal). It's a nice solid, hardbound book in blue. The pages are a nice heavy weight.
To introduce a tangent:
So...not many elderly people or people with arthritis in your congregation, I guess. Heavy hardcover books are the very devil to hold and sing from if you have any issues with your hands.
And most elderly people, and those with arthritis, do have such issues.
Your congregation/parish/church is in the majority on this, of course, so my comment is not actually aimed at you specifically.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yet the blasted Hymns O&N seems to get everywhere. Why? How? It's as much of a mystery as Radio 4's annual recommissioning of Quote Unquote. Everyone knows it's crap: no-one likes it; but it still survives. Only explanation I can think of is that Kevin Mayhew have hacked into the secret archives at Lambeth Palace, the RSCM, Methodist Church House, etc, and have something 'on' large numbers of clergy and choirmasters, which they will keep quiet in return for bulk purchases of their horrible books.
I have a suspicion that its popularity may have something to do with the unfailing ability of committees to eliminate anything of merit. Hymns O&N is not bad, it is far worse than that, it is mediocre! Any committee confronted by it is going to start wetting itself with enthusiasm because it has compromise written all over it.
PD
[ 26. December 2011, 22:38: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I went to Midnight Mass (well 11.30, we're C of E) to a church which used A & M New Standard and I spent sometime before the service looking through it.
I have to say that compared to Sydney Carter and (at his best) Brian Wren, dear old Fred P Green sounds like Patience Strong.
464 is a bit unfortunate, ending:
Here, in this day's dedication,
all we have to give, receive.
We, who cannot live without you,
we adore you, we believe.
What strikes me is that in conversational modern English "we believe", particularly at the end of a sentence, doesn't so much imply confident affirmation, as a suspicion of doubt. ("He's gone to Brighton, I believe" implies I'm not totally certain.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Right-Believing Queen:
I'm struggling to think of many others. Certainly the collective efforts of every hymnographer working in the twentieth century produced far fewer hymns of quality a J.M. Neale did individually.
Certainly that is not true! There are hundreds of hymns worth singing from the 20th century.
They might not be to your taste but what about "The Old Rugged Cross", or "How Great Thou Art", or "Because He Lives", "There Is a Redeemer", "Be still for the presence of the Lord", "Lift High the Cross"?
Or for songs that didn't become well-known until married to new tunes in the 20th century, we have "Here is love, vast as the ocean" which is from 1873 in Welsh but only appeared in English in 1900 or "Guide me O thou great Jehovah" is 18th century - but only became a popular hymn in English when sung to Cwm Rhondda, a tune published in 1907. Or others such as "For all the saints", "Come Down, O Love Divine", "All My Hope on God is Founded".
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
They might not be to your taste but what about "The Old Rugged Cross", or "How Great Thou Art", or ... "Be still for the presence of the Lord", "Lift High the Cross"?
All of which I really like and would be very pleased to sing rather than the Songs of Praise stuff that is my regular fare.
Sort of thing we'd sing at Walsingham.
If RBQ had said late C20 he might have had a point (all ken's examples are early C20) but I'd be glad to be proved wrong.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Venbede
Tune - originally in Public School Hymn Book and knowing that it sounds ever so hearty to me, redolent of cold showers and cross country runs.
That's well guessed. Look at this.
Mind, he had some distinguished pupils.
Interesting to note that the other one which uses 'Woodlands'- that archetypal public school hymn 'Lift up your hearts' - was written by HM Butler, who cleaned up Harrow after the scandals which flourished under Vaughan. Makes all that stuff about 'the level of the former years/ the mire of sin, the slough of guilty fears' and 'the deeds, the thoughts that honour may not name' seem very pointed.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Perkin
Apprentice
# 16928
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Posted
I seem to remeber a revision of the Public School Hymn Book - Hymns for Church and SChool. It used to be found as an extra hymn book at Durham Cathedral.
I think the idea there was that it had sufficiently different hymns to their standard fare - but can't recall what that was.
NEH is good, but thin on Responsorial psalms which are in greater number in its supplement. However it is still snooty about some great popular hymns, and so maybe another book is needed. But then that gets to three books - NEH, supplement plus a n other.
Posts: 40 | From: Plumstead Episcopi | Registered: Feb 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
Sorry to see that so many advocate printing hymns / songs.
The best reason for using a projector and screen (given the warnings above) is the saving of forests.
Please!
When the trumpet shall sound, all projection equipment shall be consigned to the nethermost parts of hell.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
As I've said before, proper churches can't use projection equipment because where you want to put the screen there is a rood screen/ reredos/ English Altar/ Royal Arms & Ten Commandments/ great big central pulpit/ set fawr, according to denomination &/or churchmanship.
And quite right too.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
We are very close to bullet-biting and replacing our hymnbooks, so that at last the two churches in the parish will both have the same book (currently A&M NS and NEH) and the vicar will have a much easier time choosing hymns without worrying about which hymns aren't in both books.
I think we're looking at Common Praise. However, we're also looking at Sing Praise, although I realise that one's not a book to have on its own, as such.
So, not quite relatedly - How useful are melody editions: the mid-size version with just the tune?
The other church in town that uses CP gives out words editions but has melody ones in the choir, for use during choral evensong.
ISTM that if we did get Sing Praise as well we would have to get melody editions, because so many of the tunes are new or new-ish.
You could argue that if people are able to read music they're probably in the choir, in which case everyone in the congregation should be fine with a words-only. However, we don't have that sort of regular choir (we have a gang who come together to sing an anthem every few weeks but are part of the congregation the rest of the time). And it seems a bit mean to me not to provide music, but then, I do read music.
If everyone always has a melody edition, will the congregation as a whole pick up a new hymn faster?
Posts: 1637 | From: North Wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We've found 'Common Praise' works well. A lot of the music is already familiar but, for churches without choirs, have you thought of providing some melody books, available on request to members of the congregation - with a few good singers dotted around the pews, who have access to the printed tune, the rest of the congregation should pick up the melodies much more easily.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We've found 'Common Praise' works well. A lot of the music is already familiar but, for churches without choirs, have you thought of providing some melody books, available on request to members of the congregation - with a few good singers dotted around the pews, who have access to the printed tune, the rest of the congregation should pick up the melodies much more easily.
I think Common Praise is the best choice for normal Anglican worship unless the churchmanship is such that English hymnal would be more suitable. CP is well produced, has an excellent selection and hasn't messed up the texts.
I believe all hymnals should have melody lines, apart from those with full music. More people than would admit it can follow a printed melody to some extent. The last Church of Ireland hymnal issued a melody edition rather than words-only, but the idea was messed up because the book was far too big.
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Actually I would second David Drinkell's recommendation that all have melody editions. But I would, I am URC and we have had them for years. Even my mum who would never claim to read music* can understand that when the notes go up you go up.
Jengie
[eta * my mum is more musical than mean but less musically literate]
[ 18. February 2012, 21:31: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I have always intensely disliked hymns projected on a screen and will avoid any church that uses same. It always feels to me that the object of worship often becomes the screen. Also some members of the cong can't read the screen when sitting at the back of the church like good Anglicans. However, my main reason for disliking projected hymns is that I like to hold a book in my hand and to peruse the entire hymn. I have been fairly happy with the NEH, much less so with Together in Song which in my opinion is only fit for the council tip. I will not play so called choruses in my church as they are often trite and repetitive.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
As I've said before, proper churches can't use projection equipment because where you want to put the screen there is a rood screen/ reredos/ English Altar/ Royal Arms & Ten Commandments/ great big central pulpit/ set fawr, according to denomination &/or churchmanship.
And quite right too.
Or, even better, crossed keys and papal tiara...
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
Please don't attack me for a genuine enquiry, I know this sort of thing can upset but, here goes
Is there a good modern hymn book which uses inclusive language and has quality hymnody?
Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Voices Found is decent but doesn't have enough material to be anything other than a supplemental hymnal.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
You're UK, aren't you?
Common Praise - updated version of Hymns Ancient and Modern with ...
Sing Praise
Thank you Curiosity Killed. I had not come across Sing Praise.
I remember that Hymns for Today's Church amended traditional 'thee' kind of talk. I don't know what it's successor is. It is something like that which has a more inclusive approach that we would like.
This is as a resource to draw on, not to replace our current books. That would be too pricey.
Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2012
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