Ship of Fools: Would you do that at home?! Church Antics

Thread: Would you do that at home?! Church Antics Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Years ago, when I came out to my mother as an ordinand, she warned me that "church people are very strange". I inwardly smiled and piously loved her. Now, of course, I realise she is damned right.

We all know that volumes could be - have been - written on congregational/clergy behaviour during those crucial hours on a Sunday morning.

I welcome here Any and All observations from Shipmates. Bearing in mine the fundamentals - "Less is more", "If it hinders don't do it" & "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - what goes on in our buildings?

Let me kick you off with a bit of what really grinds my gears. The "sidepeople" who refuse to hand over books. (Get out of the way and let me help myself.) The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy. Readers who think they're orators. (You only bellow and make eye-contact when you read your own words. Otherwise just read it out calmly and clearly.) The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time. Clergy who can't shut up during the liturgy and who won't let you out without saying something - anything - at the end. Lay people who get offended when this doesn't happen.

The serious edge to this is - if I wasn't who I am and know what I know, a lot of what goes on would scare the living daylights out of me. Less is more - stay out of the way of fragile souls gently trying to meet God.

Let's have it. Don't be pious as I was with my mother - be honest!

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

We tend to breed toddlers who think liturgy is an opportunity for interpretive dance. Also they are the only ones at our liberal-ish, Piskie joint who speak in "tongues". [Biased]

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Haha yes. I have a lot of young children and we have learned how to confidently deal with "helpful" lay officials. "Believe you me, my friend, we know what we need and where we need to sit. And if you're going to leave nicely-balanced books, bits of loose carpet, pretty kneelers and the like everywhere, well..."!

Posted by Incumbent (# 17127) on :

Clergy who seem uncomfortable with formality and the words they are supposed to say and must inject their own comments, quips, and remarks all the way through, just to make it "personal". Also clergy who feel that their personal lives and those of their families, friends, and pets are fascinating to everyone else. Annopuncements with commentary that seem to be as long as the liturgy.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Yes, the "Columbo paradigm" - Just one more thing ...

I do sympathise with nerves and bad habits. Some of mine were kindly pointed out to me early on so I was able to stop!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Announcements at the end of the service - "Oh, I forgot, on Saturday the Fabriuc Committee will be... Go in peace..."

Intercessions that tell God what God already knows in the hope that the congregation will overhear.

And worst of all, preachers who try to be clever and get the congregation to break up into twos and threes and talk about whatever it is they have just said with their neighbour in the pews.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

You're right Ken. Show-off intercessions and know-all preachers. The other week I had to sit through some old pensioner, ordained about 5 mins, to whom it had been revealed - beyond any doubt - what the evangelist was saying.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Jengie

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Strange. Us Anglicans seem to manage them quite easily!

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
You're right Ken. Show-off intercessions and know-all preachers. The other week I had to sit through some old pensioner, ordained about 5 mins, to whom it had been revealed - beyond any doubt - what the evangelist was saying.

Oh I put up with show-offs, and those who mean what they say, even if they disagree with me. But that "talk about it with the person sitting next to you" nonsense. It gives the illusion of allowing discussion while at the same time making sure its not heard. Its also excruciatingly embarrassing to vast numbers of people. Its embarrassing for the quite/introverted/shy/bored/asleep/thick who have nothing to say, and also embarrassing for the opiniated loudmouths like me who can talk till the cows come home and know perfectly well they are likely to bore the pants off the poor victim next to them, or else shock them with their real opinion. Its embarrassing for anyoine who is a newcomer, or a stranger, or has been coming for years and hasn't made any friends, or who just forgot your name or who is feeling sad, or feeling randy, or who just doesn't want to talk to you for whatever reason. For many people being asked to talk to a possibly unknown one or two people at short notice is a lot harder than talking to a large group because of the more personal nature of it. Its a horrible ploy. Congregation abuse. I hates it! I hates it for ever!

Its the post-modern fucking-Myers-Briggs-licking liberal bullshitters that reallyannoys me. And as for Fowler's "stages of faith" the socially controlling elitist crap [Projectile]

that pretend to treat everyone as equals but in fact censors out all but the most watered-down levelled-out socially-acceptable boring ultera-liberal pap and so is in fact a way for the powerful to control the weak. No wonder some people turn to street robbery and crack cocaine.

And did I say I didn't like it?

I think I need a lie-down. Or a fag. Or a blood-pressure pill. Or a pint of cider. Maybe all four. It must be the heat.

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
The "sidepeople" who refuse to hand over books. (Get out of the way and let me help myself.)

Happened to me all the time as a child. We wouldn't want children to actually try to participate now, would we?

quote:
The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.

Ours have been told to sit and stay.

quote:
Readers who think they're orators. (You only bellow and make eye-contact when you read your own words. Otherwise just read it out calmly and clearly.)

Everybody is Maya Angelou nowadays.

quote:
The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.

We abolished the use of the ushers at communion, and our distribution time cut in half. Strangely enough, we figure out how to get to the front on our own, and we manage to find our way back to our pews.

quote:
Clergy who can't shut up during the liturgy and who won't let you out without saying something - anything - at the end.

When you find a cure for this, please let me know.

quote:
Lay people who get offended when this doesn't happen.

Tried to reposition the announcements to the new suggestion in the new book of worship (before final blessing, people standing meanwhile). Of course, no one wanted to shorten the announcements, and the old people didn't want to play stand up-sit down-stand up.

Let me add to this:

Clergy who know nothing about liturgy or hymnody trying to change the liturgy and to pick hymns, even when they haven't bothered to look ahead at the scripture readings or to take into consideration the season of the Church Year, time of service, congregational skill (or lack thereof), and ability of accompanist.

[ 24. May 2012, 00:38: Message edited by: Martin L ]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion. Cellphone sociopaths are another pet hate of mine. The vintage one was someone who answered their louding ringing phone with the words 'Can't talk now - I am in church.' The worst cellphone sociopaths are usually retired guys whose next urgent appointment is with their cardiologist (unlike to occur on a Sunday morning) or their golfing buddies for a quick round (which should already have been set up!)

PD

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

The minister's family charge him two dollars every time he mentions his wife or his children in his sermons. It was to put a limit on the practice and let them have some sort of privacy.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion. Cellphone sociopaths are another pet hate of mine. The vintage one was someone who answered their louding ringing phone with the words 'Can't talk now - I am in church.' The worst cellphone sociopaths are usually retired guys whose next urgent appointment is with their cardiologist (unlike to occur on a Sunday morning) or their golfing buddies for a quick round (which should already have been set up!)

PD

You didn't check for a camera crew?

(Nokia default ringtone) "HELLO?! YEAH, I'M IN CHURCH!!!! HOW IS IT???!!! FUCKING CRAP! CIAO!!!!!"

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:
The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.
We abolished the use of the ushers at communion, and our distribution time cut in half.

Not my experience. I tend to sit near the front (somebody's got to) and trying to be a considerate sort of chap, I would wait before leaving my pew until all the people seated in front of me had left their places. At my last church, it was always the case that even in that short time, there was already a queue stretching to the back of the (smallish) church of people sitting behind me or at the back who had joined the queue.

If people behaved like that in supermarket queues there would be riots. Just wait your turn.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

I think it's very sensible that you wait your turn, but that's your choice, isn't it? Nothing wrong with a queue or bit of a jumble if that's what people do.

Not everybody's going to get up. Of those who do, some might not want to go the altar. They might want to leave. They might want to go and pray in a quieter part of the building.

Posted by Fidei Defensor (# 17105) on :

Just out of interest, do you love these quirky folk really and laugh about their peculiarities, or are you pissed off by them? If the latter, so long as they're eligible for a visa, send them to my little pads, I'm grateful to God for anyone who turns up, and even gratefuler for people who are prepared to serve in some useful (eg ushering or service-sheet-handing-out) rôle. Behaviour modification is easier than recruitment.
And I hope that scripture readers jolly well do make eye contact. How can you read, for example, a few weeks ago, "But now is Christ risen" without establishing an emotional connection with your sisters and brothers in the pews? The wonder is that readers don't break into spontaneous gymnastics of joy at that sort of news.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Nobody particular in mind, just practices noted over a long time all over the place. I'm curious on one level how some people get through their week/job/relationships perfectly sensibly, then switch for an hour or so on Sun into what is often pure sitcom material, without the humour.

Anglicanism, for one, is "official" enough without the suits-on-patrol thing. Modifying is easier than recruitment, but people in the real world don't like this sort of ponce. It gets in the way.

The point about reading is less important, though it's theologically important to be clear that you are reading something held by the universal Church to be sacred, whether the reader's happy about the contents or not.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
I think it's very sensible that you wait your turn, but that's your choice, isn't it? Nothing wrong with a queue or bit of a jumble if that's what people do.

A queue is fine. Pushing in front of others is not queuing, according to British rules.

I'm not sure what you mean by sitcom behaviour.

Posted by Robin (# 71) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
...The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.

I've never encountered this. What is the point? Do they occasionally pounce on some victim who's having problems finding the right hymn, or answering his mobile phone? Or is it just a matter of distinguishing themselves from the humble folk in the pews?

Robin

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

Ahh don't worry about that, just love them [Biased]

A environment with an obsession for petty control in an context where love, freedom and joy is proclaimed is good base material for comedy, though a bit tragi-.

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Robin:

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
...The "suits" who patrol the side aisles during the liturgy.
I've never encountered this. What is the point? Do they occasionally pounce on some victim who's having problems finding the right hymn, or answering his mobile phone? Or is it just a matter of distinguishing themselves from the humble folk in the pews?

Robin

Lay officials who can't seem to sit down for long and always give the impression of counting heads or being on the look out for trouble. If you're a woman in this role, the suit you need normally resembles a carpet.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

In the Church of England we call them "ordained clergy".

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all know that volumes could be - have been - written on congregational/clergy behaviour during those crucial hours on a Sunday morning.

I welcome here Any and All observations from Shipmates. Bearing in mine the fundamentals - "Less is more", "If it hinders don't do it" & "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - what goes on in our buildings?

I've got a few. Sometimes, you get people wearing clothes that are some stylised version of 1st / 2nd century everyday-wear. Also, at some church services you see a small number of people (maybe even just one person) leading all the parts of the service while there's a talk given about everyone having an important part to play.

Finally, most church services seem to feature some sort of lecture, even though that's (on the whole) a really ineffective way of teaching people how to live their lives differently (like blessing those who curse us etc.).

* Ducks for cover *

[Two face]

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

You know where to go if you really want silence ....

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.
In the Church of England we call them "ordained clergy".

Guilty as charged. Of course, there are a couple of prayers that we're supposed to say during the ablutions. Other than that, sometimes I have to correct the server : "No, the wine first, please."

Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all know that volumes could be - have been - written on congregational/clergy behaviour during those crucial hours on a Sunday morning.

I welcome here Any and All observations from Shipmates. Bearing in mine the fundamentals - "Less is more", "If it hinders don't do it" & "If it ain't broke don't fix it" - what goes on in our buildings?
I've got a few. Sometimes, you get people wearing clothes that are some stylised version of 1st / 2nd century everyday-wear. Also, at some church services you see a small number of people (maybe even just one person) leading all the parts of the service while there's a talk given about everyone having an important part to play.

Finally, most church services seem to feature some sort of lecture, even though that's (on the whole) a really ineffective way of teaching people how to live their lives differently (like blessing those who curse us etc.).

* Ducks for cover *

Agree with it all my friend, though it's not as it's meant to be. We all like a bit of theatre though, don't we, though at the theatre the staff are tend to be friendly and don't chivvy you around the whole time.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

In the OP you mention Sunday morning but what about the behaviour you sometimes find on Sunday evening.

- Clergy who try to look and act "trendy" and miss the mark by a mile;

- sessions where you hear what God is doing in this place, and the same people (apparently) get up week after week and tell you their wonderful revelations. At the service I attended, I heard about God saving someone's cat. and the awesomeness of apples

Give me communion ushers any day rather than this!

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

sorry ... test

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:
The rigmarole of policing who gets up when, how and why at Communion time.
We abolished the use of the ushers at communion, and our distribution time cut in half.
Not my experience. I tend to sit near the front (somebody's got to) and trying to be a considerate sort of chap, I would wait before leaving my pew until all the people seated in front of me had left their places. At my last church, it was always the case that even in that short time, there was already a queue stretching to the back of the (smallish) church of people sitting behind me or at the back who had joined the queue.

If people behaved like that in supermarket queues there would be riots. Just wait your turn.

Oh no, we are very orderly. When the row in front of you has gone, then you go. The ushers used to try to estimate a certain number, and always got it wrong.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all like a bit of theatre though, don't we...

Yep, I guess many of us do. But what we like and what is best for us aren't always the same thing...

I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

On the other hand, there are times and places where it is appropriate to be fussy about the quality of the worship we offer to God. It shows that we think it matters.

Worship isn't just about our having a nice time and getting a nice feeling of inclusion (though these are important: it's about making, through God's grace, an acceptable offering to Him.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
We all like a bit of theatre though, don't we...
Yep, I guess many of us do. But what we like and what is best for us aren't always the same thing...

I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

At home, everyone is included and valued--but everyone is given tasks which accord with their talents and abilities. If Dad is good at cooking and has the time to do it, then Dad should cook--handing the kitchen over to the 5-year-old might do wonders for his self-esteem, but it's unlikely to produce a dinner worth eating.

Church should work the same way. Let people do what they're good at, as St Paul suggests in Romans 12. The exercise of functions or ministries in the church is not a vehicle for personal exaltation or reinforcement of self-esteem, but the glorification of God and the edification of his people.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

A religious community I know of has a member who has struggled with a stutter all his life, and he is given a regular place on the rota of officiants for Rosary and Vespers. His decidedly unrushed and somehwat labored style of leading the prayers helps the community focus, and they're very patient with him when a pause gets a little long. His recitation of his first vows was a sort of "King's Speech" moment and a triumph for him.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At home, everyone is included and valued--but everyone is given tasks which accord with their talents and abilities.

If you are lucky.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Jengie

Sooo funny! So neurotic.
*

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fidei Defensor:
Just out of interest, do you love these quirky folk really and laugh about their peculiarities, or are you pissed off by them? If the latter, so long as they're eligible for a visa, send them to my little pads, I'm grateful to God for anyone who turns up, and even gratefuler for people who are prepared to serve in some useful (eg ushering or service-sheet-handing-out) rôle. Behaviour modification is easier than recruitment.
And I hope that scripture readers jolly well do make eye contact. How can you read, for example, a few weeks ago, "But now is Christ risen" without establishing an emotional connection with your sisters and brothers in the pews? The wonder is that readers don't break into spontaneous gymnastics of joy at that sort of news.

Glad to know that I wasn't the only person having these thoughts. Most of the 'complaints' that people have made are things that don't bother me one bit.

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Jengie
Sooo funny! So neurotic.
*

You just know that some time, perhaps decades ago, there was one accident, and a resolve to never let that happen again. I have a feeling that everybody has forgotten the story.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

The folk who come into church and pointedly remark that the visitor is sitting in THEIR SEAT. It is amusing to notice from the choir stalls that most regular members of the congregation have favourite places to sit in church and rarely vary from these. Maybe we need a rule that you have to move to a different spot each Sunday or just for fun have a game of musical chairs.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Years ago, when I came out to my mother as an ordinand, she warned me that "church people are very strange". I inwardly smiled and piously loved her. Now, of course, I realise she is damned right ...

You bet.

How about the incense thingy? High church Anglicans, and some not so high, have used incense for many, many decades. Their choirs perform with it and their congregations worship with it, some weekly some on occasion. No problem.

But other places incense with worship brings out the church neurotics in droves. The sudden asthmatics and allergics, the faint of heart and respiration, the suspicious, those worried about fire. Much waving of service bulletins and coughing so as to make a point of it.

I was raised with the use of the stuff a Mass on Sundays and Feasts. Hundreds of us never had a problem with incense unless someone overloaded the thurible, which was a rarity.

I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
The folk who come into church and pointedly remark that the visitor is sitting in THEIR SEAT. It is amusing to notice from the choir stalls that most regular members of the congregation have favourite places to sit in church and rarely vary from these. Maybe we need a rule that you have to move to a different spot each Sunday or just for fun have a game of musical chairs.

Starting with the choir?

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

Yeah, definitely. While people who are good at church service things (preaching, singing, reading, drama etc. etc.) should get the opportunity to use their talents, there should also be the opportunity for people to practice and improve their skills. Even if this means the end result is nowhere near as good as it might be, I'd say.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I think research shows that church life tends to attract particular personality types, with particular kinds of responses to problems and challenges.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.

Very true. Learning to serve in liturgical roles, while receiving good coaching and mentoring along the way, can help a young person develop that important sense of mastery, and it can also support spiritual development in a way that the usual Sunday School and Youth Group experiences don't always provide.

quote:
A religious community I know of has a member who has struggled with a stutter all his life, and he is given a regular place on the rota of officiants for Rosary and Vespers. His decidedly unrushed and somehwat labored style of leading the prayers helps the community focus, and they're very patient with him when a pause gets a little long. His recitation of his first vows was a sort of "King's Speech" moment and a triumph for him.

In my parish there is a family that has raised 6 children, three of whom are blind. Two of the blind children (they are all young adults now) were also born with a neurological disorder that causes them to speak slowly and with a flat, nasal tone. Throughout their older childhood and teenage years, these two individuals occasionally served as lectors. Their mom would Braille the readings for them and they would read from the lectern, with a parent at their side to assist. It was *not* perfect, but it was two young people offering their best to God.

And that's why a small part of me bristles over comments about technical perfection in the liturgy. High standards are important, yes. But so are patience and generosity, and (dare I throw in a buzzword) inclusion. It was a little challenging for the congregation to listen to the two young lectors I described above, and perhaps a bit startling for a visitor or newcomer, but I believe we were the better for it.

Posted by rhflan (# 17092) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
What's especially great is to see someone grow into and flourish in a role for which there are expectations of competence: a teen (formerly of the reads-too-fast-and-sing-songily sort) who gains confidence and poise to become a fantastic lector, or someone with a speech impediment who does the same and is much helped by this experience. There can be a standard (clear, well-paced reading) and there can be patience for those aiming to achieve that standard.
Very true. Learning to serve in liturgical roles, while receiving good coaching and mentoring along the way, can help a young person develop that important sense of mastery, and it can also support spiritual development in a way that the usual Sunday School and Youth Group experiences don't always provide.

quote:
A religious community I know of has a member who has struggled with a stutter all his life, and he is given a regular place on the rota of officiants for Rosary and Vespers. His decidedly unrushed and somehwat labored style of leading the prayers helps the community focus, and they're very patient with him when a pause gets a little long. His recitation of his first vows was a sort of "King's Speech" moment and a triumph for him.
In my parish there is a family that has raised 6 children, three of whom are blind. Two of the blind children (they are all young adults now) were also born with a neurological disorder that causes them to speak slowly and with a flat, nasal tone. Throughout their older childhood and teenage years, these two individuals occasionally served as lectors. Their mom would Braille the readings for them and they would read from the lectern, with a parent at their side to assist. It was *not* perfect, but it was two young people offering their best to God.

And that's why a small part of me bristles over comments about technical perfection in the liturgy. High standards are important, yes. But so are patience and generosity, and (dare I throw in a buzzword) inclusion. It was a little challenging for the congregation to listen to the two young lectors I described above, and perhaps a bit startling for a visitor or newcomer, but I believe we were the better for it.

I could not agree with you any more [Smile]

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :

Where do I begin?

Preachers who don't realise when less is more.

Biddings intended to precede the Prayer for the Church but which take much longer to get through than the prayer itself.

People who insist on standing for the Prayer of Oblation or Thanksgiving.

The unspoken assumption (in some places) that Anglican congregations can't manage Anglican chant.

Common Worship Collects at Prayer Book services on occasions for which the Prayer Book provides perfectly good ones.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Thank you for this thread - I'm having trouble thinking of an incident to contribute which is rather wonderful as it's helping me to realise how good things are at church most of the time. (Sometimes we take good stuff for granted.)

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.

That's funny, I thought it only started being used in Christendom to mask the odours of the great unwashed and a scriptural link to previous use in Judaic worship retrospectively adopted a few generations later. It all would have been started by somebody who only had to think about it for the first time when they were expected to know the correct answer, perhaps as a priest assumed to be the most educated person in town. Add a few more generations onto that and you start getting strident admonishments for people even thinking that masking other odours that might be an unpleasant distraction during worship could ever have been considered when somebody thought about whether incense was a good thing or not.

It's similar to the convoluted explanations given for the reason that something is used to cover the communion elements. It's as if people are embarrassed that they had to deal with the practical issue of flies landing there!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.
That's funny, I thought it only started being used in Christendom to mask the odours of the great unwashed and a scriptural link to previous use in Judaic worship retrospectively adopted a few generations later.

What about Revelations?

Either way its clearly as well-supported in the Bible as hymn-singing is (and rather better than speaking in tongues).

I doubt if many evangelicals have a doctrinal criticism of incense, its just something they aren't very likely to do. Culturally alien to them. Most people in our socidety wouldn't come across the stuff in a month of Sundays - unless they are retro hippy types who burn joss sticks at home. I doubt if I once smelled incense in my whole life until I came across long-haired dope-smoking giggly people who bought their costume jewelery in head-shops. (Though as I lived in Brighton throughout the 60s and 70s I did see a lot of them...)

But anyway, form most of modern history, your average EuroAmerican Protestant (outwith the peculiar minority circles of Anglo-Catholicism) would never have thought of using incense in worship, any more than they would have thought of dancing around balancing wine bottles on their heads, or wearing skullcaps in church, or eating curried squid and kimchi to the bring-and-share lunch. There might be no theological objection, its just not something they'd think of.

The adoration of the bread and wine, that they mostly would have theological objections to - but not incense.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

PD

My pew mate (who is admittedly getting a bit dotty) invariably begins to chatter as the priest (during the prayers before the entrance) intones "The Lord is in His Holy Temple - Let all the earth keep Silent Before Him". Then again he chatters at most every quiet moment, yet due to his age and feebleness I feel I mustn't abandon him...

[edited to add] The woman who lives across the street who brings her rather naughty and misbehaving children in at every high mass following the celebrant up the center aisle.

[ 28. May 2012, 19:30: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
People who talk during the quiet bits and pauses during the service - such as the ablutions after Communion.

PD
My pew mate (who is admittedly getting a bit dotty) invariably begins to chatter as the priest (during the prayers before the entrance) intones "The Lord is in His Holy Temple - Let all the earth keep Silent Before Him". Then again he chatters at most every quiet moment, yet due to his age and feebleness I feel I mustn't abandon him...

[edited to add] The woman who lives across the street who brings her rather naughty and misbehaving children in at every high mass following the celebrant up the center aisle.

The ones that are a bit batty I can cope with. It is the folks who would shush you if you made a peep in a movie theatre that yak away in church that get to me.

PD

Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
If you're a woman in this role, the suit you need normally resembles a carpet.

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Maybe we need a rule that you have to move to a different spot each Sunday or just for fun have a game of musical chairs.

Now that's just utter heresy... [Eek!]

Mamacita - agree completely with your thoughts.

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
...and (dare I throw in a buzzword) inclusion.

Yes, "inclusion" is quite a buzzword. Inclusion is a central part of what we do at my parish, it's bloody important in a diocese where many are excluded. Inclusion is what Christ did, and for the rest of us, seeing it happen is a constant reminder of God's grace.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Their mom would Braille the readings for them and they would read from the lectern, with a parent at their side to assist. It was *not* perfect, but it was two young people offering their best to God.

And that's why a small part of me bristles over comments about technical perfection in the liturgy.

But that is perfect, Mamacita. It is taking time and trouble and imagination and not replacing the liturgy of the church with something simpler and possibly patronising.

Those readers and their parents took immense care in delivering a central part of the liturgy, and made a vital witness to you all.

It is the opposite of the "it-doesn't-matter-
as-long-as-they-mean-well" attitude.

[ 29. May 2012, 08:38: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

My grump at the moment is church people who use things for church purposes but don't bother to basically put things back the way they found them.

May sound small but Sound System left on and keys to it left out in the Church!

Oh and the individual who chucks out broken microphones rather than telling me so I can get someone to fix them!

Jengie

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I've only known one retired priest do this recently, but I suspect it was once much more common.

At a said celebration, to introduce the collect not with "Let us pray" but with "The collect for the Thirteenth Sunday after Trinity".

Those who know what a collect or a Sunday after Trinity are, don't need to be told. Those who don't know what they mean, will be confused by unnecessary jargon.

Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :

quote:
It is the folks who would shush you if you made a peep in a movie theatre that yak away in church that get to me.

My favourite in this vein was a well-heeled pompous old git in the congregation at a FiF church where I was singing with a visiting choir who kept shushing us before the service. His mobile went off during the Eucharistic prayer. He then proceeded to answer it!

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:
Despite appearances candles are not banned at my church, it is just the health and safety assessment made by elders for their use tend to put off any would be candle lighters They involve several elders being and buckets of water and sand in places ready to extinguish them if things go wrong.

Our sole candle-using service is Carols by Candlelight, and it's preceded by people standing in the aisles doing an air-hostess-style demonstration. ("The exits are there and there" etc, with arm movements.)

Plus, of course, the strategically placed buckets of sand / water.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Our sole candle-using service is Carols by Candlelight, and it's preceded by people standing in the aisles doing an air-hostess-style demonstration. ("The exits are there and there" etc, with arm movements.)

We have several retired or active active flight attendants in our congregation. We could have such fun with this!
[Big Grin]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Yes but I know one church where that* happens every week and they don't light candles.

Jengie

*slight exaggeration, but the fire announcement is made before every morning service including stating where the exits are.

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
The folk who come into church and pointedly remark that the visitor is sitting in THEIR SEAT. It is amusing to notice from the choir stalls that most regular members of the congregation have favourite places to sit in church and rarely vary from these. Maybe we need a rule that you have to move to a different spot each Sunday or just for fun have a game of musical chairs.

The Baptist church I was at in North London had a complete refit, carpets laid, repainted top to bottom, and the pews that were far too close together were moved further apart by the cunning removal of a couple.

This created the rather amusing spectacle of watching people who sat in this pew, had always sat in this pew, and will always sit in this pew trying to work out which one it was. What had been fourth from the back was still fourth from the back. What was sixth from the front was still sixth from the front. Unfortunately they were now one and the same.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
Years ago, when I came out to my mother as an ordinand, she warned me that "church people are very strange". I inwardly smiled and piously loved her. Now, of course, I realise she is damned right ...
You bet.

How about the incense thingy? High church Anglicans, and some not so high, have used incense for many, many decades. Their choirs perform with it and their congregations worship with it, some weekly some on occasion. No problem.

But other places incense with worship brings out the church neurotics in droves. The sudden asthmatics and allergics, the faint of heart and respiration, the suspicious, those worried about fire. Much waving of service bulletins and coughing so as to make a point of it.

I was raised with the use of the stuff a Mass on Sundays and Feasts. Hundreds of us never had a problem with incense unless someone overloaded the thurible, which was a rarity.

I suppose for Evangelicals the use of incense is unthinkable, yet its use in worship has an explicit scriptural foundation. I find this all very amusing.

We use incense at one of the two Masses every Sunday, and we still have regulars fanning frantically and diving to open the windows before they have to be subjected to the smoke.

I like to think that if they are willing to put up with the smoke every week, we must do everything else perfectly.

(I am a incense lover, and I am willing to admit that if I am having a particularly troubling allergy day, the smoke can, in fact, exacerbate things. But usually, if I remember to take my pill the night before, I have no issues.)

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Incumbent:
Clergy who seem uncomfortable with formality and the words they are supposed to say and must inject their own comments, quips, and remarks all the way through, just to make it "personal". Also clergy who feel that their personal lives and those of their families, friends, and pets are fascinating to everyone else. Annopuncements with commentary that seem to be as long as the liturgy.

I know a particular retired clergy who has managed to work his friendship with Ann B. Davis (played Alice on the Brady Bunch) into more than one sermon. That factoid never explicates the Gospel, either.

And I also hate when clergy make a point of telling/showing their personal distaste for the liturgy they're presiding at. Nothing says "We're not really doing anything meaningful here, are we?" more.

Similarly, presiders/celebrants/officiants who don't pay attention to the parts that aren't "theirs" - e.g., they read the bulletin during the proclamation of the Word. Other forms of distractedness among the vested participants (clergy or not), such as looking around at people in the congregation during the procession and giving the general impression that you wish the procession would just get there already.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

We have a "family section" that has two purposes: (1) giving children a spot up front so they can see the action during the Eucharist; and (2) having all the families in one place, since the kids have been at Godly Play and only join the service at the Offertory. What really bewilders me is how much food is on the floor at the end of the service. It's not even as if the kids were there for the entire service (only slightly longer than an hour) - they've missed the long, boring parts. They've joined for the express purpose of receiving Communion. Why do their parents feel the need to shove snack foods in their mouths at all during a Sunday service, much less during this tiny fraction of a service they actually are attending? Did they not feed their kids breakfast before coming to church?

quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Cellphone sociopaths are another pet hate of mine. The vintage one was someone who answered their louding ringing phone with the words 'Can't talk now - I am in church.'

I was the verger at a wedding once, where the groom's mother answered the phone just as the procession finished entering. And she proceeded to talk to the person who called. (I think it was a guest who was running late, but still...)

quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I've thought of another thing we do in church services that we don't at home. When we're with family or friends at home, we usually interact in terms of everyone feeling included and valued. But in church services, there can be the temptation to use only the best musicians, the best readers, the best ushers etc. I don't think it should be this way; technical excellence isn't the point (IMO).

I often joke that the cardinal sin for Episcopalians is tackiness. Meaning Episcopalians are really good at making a standard out of their own taste and sneering at anything else. Sadly, the banner of "tacky" tends to include non-white cultural practices, anything approaching Catholic popular religion (like statuary, and touching/kissing holy objects), most pop culture, etc. It's just cultural snobbery.

That's how I read what South Coast Kevin said, anyway. I see that others are interpreting it as letting people do anything just to boost their self-esteem. It is important to perfect our offerings as much as we can. There's a balance to be struck.

BTW, ken's cracking me up in this thread! [Killing me]

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
We use incense at one of the two Masses every Sunday, and we still have regulars fanning frantically and diving to open the windows before they have to be subjected to the smoke.

I like to think that if they are willing to put up with the smoke every week, we must do everything else perfectly.

(I am a incense lover, and I am willing to admit that if I am having a particularly troubling allergy day, the smoke can, in fact, exacerbate things. But usually, if I remember to take my pill the night before, I have no issues.)

This past Sunday we had a visitor who made the mistake of taking a pew near the place where the Gospel is sung and when the thurifer came down, the poor fellow was wreathed in smoke - at which point he leapt up onto the pew to race to the side aisle. It was quite the vision.

edited for spelling

[ 01. June 2012, 17:18: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
Why do their parents feel the need to shove snack foods in their mouths at all during a Sunday service, much less during this tiny fraction of a service they actually are attending? Did they not feed their kids breakfast before coming to church?

The many times I've seen 9-year-olds in Sunday school whine and clamour to go raid the Goldfish™ crackers in the preschool classroom have me pretty convinced that a lot of them don't have breakfast before coming to church.

But as to the parents pushing snacks in church, I think there's another motive: I truly think that many of them are, at some level, quite nervous about their children acting up during the liturgy, and so their M.O. is to keep the kids as distracted as possible. Stuffing their little faces is a popular diversionary tactic.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

How absolutely disgusting. I had never even contemplated such behaviour until I read these posts.

Perhaps one of the reasons for our increasingly scandalous childhood obesity in the UK is precisely because parents stuff the faces of their children at every opportunity, often with crisps and fizzy drinks, then leave them with their phones and TVs and then...swoon swoon...expect them to be treated for free on the NHS when they inevitably bloat and get Type 2 diabetes.

The French on the other hand have a notion of MEALS. Children are expected to sit at the table and behave as it is an important occasion. Even the parking meters are turned off for two hours in the middle of the day.

And were the French to go to church (raher a rarity it has to be admitted), such behaviour by parents or children would be met with fascinated incomprehension.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

In defense of the English it has to be said that the present bad habits are a product of the last 15-20 years. MEALS were still observed when I was a kid, and eating between meals firmly discouraged. Pop and crisps were occasional treats. In our house if one had to snack there was usually some fruit in a basket on the back of the Kitchen Counter. We were not middle class or at all well off, but Mother had standards.

On the odd occasions we went to church I was expected to sit down, shut up and behave like a civilized human being in return for which I would be rewarded by not being packed off to Sunday School. I did not like kids when I was a kid, so being able to avoid SS was a treat.

PD

[ 03. June 2012, 04:41: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :

People who insist that the way that they do things, is the only way. Would you expect every household to do exactly the same thing, in the same way, at same time?

And people who confuse what the do, with why they do it eg it's not 'porper church' if we don't have the right flowers on the altar..

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
[QUOTE]But as to the parents pushing snacks in church, I think there's another motive: I truly think that many of them are, at some level, quite nervous about their children acting up during the liturgy, and so their M.O. is to keep the kids as distracted as possible. Stuffing their little faces is a popular diversionary tactic.

Oh, absolutely. I have no doubt that's what it's about - keeping the kids quiet.

One of my sisters was diabetic (type I), and we never had food during church services. The most we could do was quietly doodle.

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