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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The decline and fall of liturgy in worship
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Bartolomeo
Musical Engineer
# 8352
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Posted
Some time ago circumstances led me to be a regular visitor at the traditional worship service at a younger, midsize Lutheran (ELCA) church.
There was no liturgy at any of the services (I attended perhaps a dozen). There were hymns, and a choir, and piano and organ, but the only liturgy was spoken, was abbreviated considerably from the usual form, and was not identified as such in the bulletin.
The service was, overall, indistinguishable from a typical protestant worship service at a non-liturgical church, e.g. Methodist, UCC, Moravian.
Is this becoming common in Lutheran churches? Is this happening in ECUSA as well?
[ 07. June 2012, 19:38: Message edited by: Bartolomeo ]
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"Individual talent is too sporadic and unpredictable to be allowed any important part in the organization society" --Stuart Chase
Posts: 1291 | From: the American Midwest | Registered: Aug 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
All too common, unfortunately. Where there is a "traditional" service, it tends to be the best-attended one, and also begins at the crack of dawn.
I have visited quite a few TEC churches in this diocese, and they tend to offer by-the-book Rite 2 "traditional" as their main services, although many of them seem to treat that as their "contemporary" service! I'm afraid most of them exude a hearty aroma of "our heyday is long gone." I actually think I'm allergic to one of the churches.
ETA: I would suggest that all ELCA churches interested in starting a contemporary liturgy visit their local Roman Catholic place for the late Sunday morning mass, or the Saturday night mass. Those are invariably quite contemporary, with bands and/or piano, but they duly maintain the proper Order of Mass.
[ 07. June 2012, 22:49: Message edited by: Martin L ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Bartolomeo:
Is this happening in ECUSA as well?
Not really
Praise the Lord and knock on wood.
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-Og: King of Bashan
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I suspect that liturgy in worship, will eventually rise again, like a phoenix from the ashes.
Liturgy is virtually a dirty word in Sydney Anglican circles and has been for some time BUT I was heartened to attend an education conference run by Sydney Anglicans recently and the keynote speaker focused on the importance of liturgy and ritual in shaping people's desires. He spoke about the shortcomings of the typical reductionist, information giving approach to evangelism and worship. It was extremely heartening to hear this.
I'm hoping that with all things there are fads and that maybe the anti-liturgy fad is starting to wane as people realise we're not just disembodied brains (and not very smart ones at that).
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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jlav12
Apprentice
# 17148
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Posted
TEC has many problems, but sloppy neo-evangelicalism isn't one of them; thank God.
Posts: 34 | From: Albany, New York | Registered: Jun 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Around here, the most robust worship services in ELCA churches are the traditional services.
Despite this, the push always seems to be for minimalism because we mustn't frighten "seekers" who might be disappointed because we don't have a rock band. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
In my congregation, the less we tinker with the traditional order of service, the more people show up and the more NEW people show up. Just sayin'.
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Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
Just this past Sunday I attended a memorial service with Holy Communion for a deceased colleague. He died in Minnesota but had served many years here in western NY. The liturgy was conducted by the book, but done without vestments.Similarly the clergy were specifically invited NOT to vest when the service was first announced. To me, it detracted from the dignity of the liturgy. When our local firefighters honor someone who has died, every one of them shows up at the service in full dress uniform. What do they "get" that we somehow seem to have forgotten?
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
Granted, my ELCA shack isn't entirely typical (it's the closest church to the Capitol, for goodness sakes!), but there seems to be a fair bit of liturgy that I can recognize from my time amongst the Catholics—and that's at the late, well-attended service. Sure, it's not Easter Vigil at the Basilica, but it's still not exactly Quaker by any means.
Does it get a bit "modern in a twee way" at times? Sure. It happens to the best of us. Abandon all pretenses to liturgy, though? Oh Hell No.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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ChippedChalice
Shipmate
# 14057
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Posted
I do hope that Evangeline is right about her prediction that traditional liturgy will have a resurgence in the ELCA.
Both of the parishes I once served as a pastor - which, only 20 years ago were "high church" - now have praise services for their main worship on Sunday.
And they both have experienced a 30 percent decline in attendance. Don't know if that would be different if the traditional liturgy had remained. (Maybe they just miss my preaching.). ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 131 | From: Chicago | Registered: Aug 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
There does seem to be quite a pond difference here. Though not a straightforward one, as TEC is clearly on the catholic/liturgical side whereas large parts of the C of E have been moving away from it in some ways. However, as far as the latter is concerned I think that the pendulum is beginning to swing back again and people are more ready to appreciate liturgy.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
TEC has many problems, but sloppy neo-evangelicalism isn't one of them; thank God.
I'm preparing for a move sometime in the not-too-distant future to D. Central Florida and I fear that I may be disabused of such notions, from what I've heard.
Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Around here, the most robust worship services in ELCA churches are the traditional services.
Even where they are not the best-attended, they might be the best-funded.
In an organist's group, someone related a conversation in a Roman Catholic parish which maintained a traditional mass (at least musically) and a more informal one. The song leader of the latter came to the priest with a complaint about the status quo. I don't recall whether she was objecting to the budget, the service time, or the traditional mass's continued existence at all, but she noted that the guitar mass drew twice as many worshippers. "Nevertheless, they put only half as much in the offering plate," he replied.
I wouldn't deny for a moment that it would not be wholesome for those in charge to allow a few people to buy their preferred church environment contrary to the general good, or to make decisions with the balance sheet uppermost. But when, after considerable experience, a style of worship conspicuously fails to develop serious commitment to the work of the church among the attendees, it is relatively ineffective.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
the guitar mass drew twice as many worshippers. "Nevertheless, they put only half as much in the offering plate," he replied.
I wince at equating donation size with spirituality (too many TV evangelists seem to do that), unless all other factors are known. Was the guitar mass attracting lots of youngsters in school or with minimum wage jobs, while the traditional had the older retired folks with a history of high incomes and a lifetime of savings to disburse? That's true in some churches. Not all, but some.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
In many places, the mainstays of guitar masses are boomers stuck in the 70s.
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
While my church using many different liturgies through the year, it usually follows the Order of Mass.
A couple of years ago we lost a professional organist who was offered more for her services at another church--that church had a mix of praise band and organ. But a couple of weeks ago it was announced she was coming back to our congregation. She had enough trying to work with the praise band.
Not sure if we are going to match what the other church was giving her or more or less. Not privy to the salary.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
In the parishes of the anglican Church of Canada (ACC) we use either the Book of Common Prayer or the Book of Alternative Services.
Now the main service is in most places an Eucherist and the form using either book is very liturgical . And I think that people want the known not the happy clappy, big sikky smiles which I saw in my 20+ years in evangelical churches. It ws oh so nice to come
home to liturgical worship and the observances of the varied seasons . ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
quote:
Originally posted by jlav12:
TEC has many problems, but sloppy neo-evangelicalism isn't one of them; thank God.
I'm preparing for a move sometime in the not-too-distant future to D. Central Florida and I fear that I may be disabused of such notions, from what I've heard.
I don't know about Central Florida , but in the Diocese of Dallas, from what I've seen and red trying to find Episcopal churches while visiting my parents, the services are still firmly liturgical according to rite 1 or 2 of the 79 BCP. This is true even in places where the music is contemporary and the theology heavily influenced by the evangelical subculture.
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
In the parishes of the anglican Church of Canada (ACC) we use either the Book of Common Prayer or the Book of Alternative Services.
Now the main service is in most places an Eucherist and the form using either book is very liturgical . And I think that people want the known not the happy clappy, big sikky smiles which I saw in my 20+ years in evangelical churches. It ws oh so nice to come
home to liturgical worship and the observances of the varied seasons .
Go around the corner to the United Church. We've been doing happy-clappy since 1793. I like serious worship too, but sometimes in the summer, there's nothing like a old-fashioned Camp Revival.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
In some churches, there seems to be a vibe of "If we/the congregation like the order of service, then we need to shake things up a bit. It shouldn't please us. We shouldn't be this happy." Perhaps this is simply dour Protestantism at work.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
In some churches, there seems to be a vibe of "If we/the congregation like the order of service, then we need to shake things up a bit. It shouldn't please us. We shouldn't be this happy." Perhaps this is simply dour Protestantism at work.
From experience, when that attitude takes root, the amount in the collection each week goes down and the numbers in the pews go down. If people don't feel secure and happy in church these days, they vote with their feet. Nobody has to go to church anymore.....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
In many places, the mainstays of guitar masses are boomers stuck in the 70s.
Reliving their University Christian Union experiences in a round of endless nostalgia.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
In the United States, the mainstays of the contemporary worship service in mainline denominations are more likely trying to relive summer church camp or their denominations version of the weekend retreat with talks and a bag of goodies (Cursillo in TEC, Walk to Emmaus in the UMC, a Latin phrase in ELCA).
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
I'd need to go hunting for the link, but a body in TEC did a survey on "contemporary vs. traditional" music in TEC in the run-up to General Convention and found that the 50-65 (or so) age range was the only one really preferring "contemporary music". The under-30 respondants were firmly in favor of "traditional", as were the over-65s. So, yes, a lot of aging boomers remembering their own salad days.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The issue of 'seeker-friendly' services used to come up every year in the Evangelism Committee of the Synod. This was when the Committee was dominated by the 50-65 age group. However such requests disappeared when we finally got some under-50s on that Board a few years back! That would seem to indicate which demographic likes contemporary (sic) worship.
However, there is a Low Church/Evangelical element in the jurisdiction that is utterly loyal to the liturgy on Sunday but I get occasional requests Asking if a parish can have an midweek prayer meeting type event. The other request we get is for a permission to use a wider range of music. So far this has been done in a way that has not disturbed the Common Prayer or the
'common peace' so the HoB has been happy to let it occur.
The only serious modernizing request that we get is for a modern language BCP, but that one always dies in the House of Delegates come Convention time. As a result this issue has gone kind of underground!
PD
[ 10. June 2012, 04:38: Message edited by: PD ]
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
In some churches, there seems to be a vibe of "If we/the congregation like the order of service, then we need to shake things up a bit. It shouldn't please us. We shouldn't be this happy." Perhaps this is simply dour Protestantism at work.
Bingo!
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
(Cursillo in TEC, Walk to Emmaus in the UMC, a Latin phrase in ELCA).
Via de Cristo. Spanish, perhaps?
As a Lutheran church, we always seem to have a little struggle when it comes to non-Sunday morning services. There is a general feeling that weekday/night services should be different in some way. It becomes a pain when we reach something like Christmas Eve, and people expect some sort of home-brewed hootenanny. We tend to follow the standard order of service, but then the forces-to-be-reckoned-with start their shenanigans: couldn't we omit this, why do we need to do that, I think Christmas service should be different, etc... We never sing the ordinary on Christmas Eve.
If somebody were to suggest we have a weeknight service every week, the first question that would be asked at my church is, "What would we do?" This shows that people don't think of the order of Holy Communion as what we normally do without question, but what we do on Sunday morning. Period.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Definitely Spanish
Don't know why I assumed it was Latin.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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uffda
Shipmate
# 14310
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
This shows that people don't think of the order of Holy Communion as what we normally do without question, but what we do on Sunday morning. Period.
I think it's important for there to be an ORDO, but, I think, many Lutherans would want flexibility in that Ordo, especially on a weekday/night. I thought that TEC tried to move in that direction with Rite III. There were some moves toward that in the ELCA in Renewing Worship prior to the publication of the ELW in 2006, but they seem to have disappeared. I also think, though, that in an effort to avoid uniformity in worship, some Lutherans and others have sacrificed unity in worship.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The only serious modernizing request that we get is for a modern language BCP, but that one always dies in the House of Delegates come Convention time. As a result this issue has gone kind of underground!
PD
Has their been any interest in your jurisdiction in the modern language liturgies in ACNA's 2011 BCP??
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