Thread: Weekday Eucharist Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
The other day I attended a weekday eucharist, which is a special treat for me. One aspect I admire about weekday eucharist is that it doesn't really matter where one goes (a low church place, MOTR, high church), it is going to be virtually if not exactly identical in almost any Episcopal church.

There is one aspect of variation that I occasionally encounter: the sermon. Although I am proudly Lutheran and we tend to pride ourselves in our preaching, those who have come to know me through my posts over the years won't be surprised to find out that I do not look forward to sermons at weekday eucharists. They almost invariably seem to be off-the-cuff or read straight from a book, the latter of which was the case at the service I attended the other day.

I guess I am hoping for a two-fold purpose for this thread:

1) Have you discovered a magical formula for the sermon at a short weekday liturgy? Tell your secrets!

2) What are your feelings (or if you prefer those of your denomination or local church) about the necessity of a sermon?

*And please interpret my use of the word "sermon" to include any variation thereof: homily, meditation, whatever.

[ 27. June 2012, 18:12: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:


2) What are your feelings (or if you prefer those of your denomination or local church) about the necessity of a sermon?

Our vicar tells of celebrating a weekday eucharist at a historic church (which usually attracted only a handful of people) to which a coach load of interdenominational visitors turned up.

When he told them afterwards that he had never seen so many in the side chapel a Methodist visitor asked why he hadn't taken the opportunity to preach a spontaneous sermon, a Salvationist asked why they hadn't sung a hymn, and an Anglican why he hadn't taken a collection.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
It tends to be a homily if you get anything at all. I used to like the midweek ones at St. Botolph's, Bishopsgate when we were there on Wednesdays, as it was obvious the priest had taken time to preach something as worthwhile as if it had been a Sunday.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Our priest gives 'short' (10-15 minute) homilies at both weekday Eucharists (Wednesday evening and Saturday morning), though I think he does have a tendency sometimes to ramble a bit or to repeat himself. Five minutes is more than enough IMNSHO, and I'd be quite happy if the homily was omitted - certainly on Wednesday evenings, when I'm tired and wanna go home!

OTOH, Father comes from an Evangelical and Bible-based background, and is also a retired schoolmaster, so I can understand his desire to teach us......

Ian J.
 
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
Our priest reads about the person we're commemorating that day from 'Holy Women, Holy Men' at the beginning of the service (he used to do it at the sermon time, but this actually works out nicely.)
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Although preaching is optional at weekday masses, I've never known anyone in my community say a midweek mass without at least something, although I know of other Catholic priests that skip the homily. Even a few weeks ago, when a bunch of us went on a fishing trip, we had mass together each day and whoever presided preached for a few minutes.

Midweek homilies are normally shorter (~3 min.s in most parishes I know). They also get less preparation. One hour of prep per minute of preaching works fine for the Sunday homily, but there's never time for that midweek. As the lectio is truly continua and the crowd is normally more stable, there's more opportunity for a homily series. You can also do saint-based preaching.

Often it comes out more informal: I know a decent number of preachers that will use manuscript and ambo on Sundays, but go with notes or no aids and come closer to the people during the week.

I'm increasingly coming to the view that midweek homilies are actually a different genre to Sunday homilies for these kinds of reasons, even though they share a lot in common. They provide different challenges and different opportunities to proclaim God's saving work for us in Christ.

[ 27. June 2012, 20:39: Message edited by: Hart ]
 
Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
Our priest usually gives a short sermon at weekday masses although the other priests at the church don't. (I think it's maybe because he's ex CoE and the others are not). Last night he just read a short poem. I like having a sermon because due to work commitments I don't always get to Sunday mass and I like to learn.
 
Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by chive:
Our priest usually gives a short sermon at weekday masses although the other priests at the church don't. (I think it's maybe because he's ex CoE and the others are not). Last night he just read a short poem. I like having a sermon because due to work commitments I don't always get to Sunday mass and I like to learn.
Bravo to your priest!

Sounds like he is ex C of E ("Can't stop sermonising!" [Big Grin] ). He seems to be making sense and guiding you, which is the whole point of a sermon, which many clerics, wishing to impress, ignore.

I find the quiet, no sermon, participative early morning Eucharist knocks my socks off. Changes the day, changes the world.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I am afraid that one of the reasons why I frequent midweek services is that I am spared sermons. Of hundreds I have heard over the years, fewer than two dozen were worth listening to, and perhaps only four stay in my memory as having been insightful and helpful.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I think if I had my druthers I would not preach on weekdays unless I have a compelling reason to do so. That said, I have a rather guilty conscience about breaking the Bread without breaking the Word also, so on the whole I would conclude I am conflicted about the matter.

One one thing I do not like - other than the potted bio of the saint of the day - is the sort of three to five minutes half-homilies or sermonettes one hears in some places. I am afraid to say this, but I tend to believe that a consistent diet of half sermons results in half-Christians unless they have been thoroughly catechised by a tribe of storm trooper nuns.

On the other hand, I like preaching and according to some folks I am reasonably good at it. The difficulty I run into is that with the 0:59:59 rule that applies in my parish preaching a full sermon - as opposed to half an effort - is difficult even on a Sunday. I find that should the Epistle or Gospel be longer than half a dozen verses it is very difficult to cover all the material adequately. I have developed a habit of keeping the first two hymns short in order to make more time for preaching, and I am careful not to waste words. So in the end, the discipline of keeping it to 12-15 minutes is probably very good for me.

PD

[ 28. June 2012, 05:12: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
I think Hart speaks wisely. Three minutes is about the maximum for a low mass. And it is a different form than a Sunday or holy day sermon. It is truly the case that the homily at a low mass should have exactly one big fat point.

Also, some celebrants have got the necessary gift and the others should not be brow beaten into trying to fake it.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
And, as with any Sermon, it should not be the time for the priest to offload his resentments onto the captive congregants. If they haven't got anything worth saying, better not to say it.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
The times I went to weekday Eucharists, they were without a sermon/homily. I think this is the way I prefer it, because it allows me to concentrate more on the Liturgy.
 
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
 
Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
Weekday RC Masses in English feature little or no preaching. Three minutes ("A Few Holy Words") for those who do, especially at morning Masses, and are conscious of departure times. Spanish evening weekday Masses might get five or six minutes, or maybe none at all. Latin Masses at EF shacks usually have no sermon, unless it is a feast day.
 
Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
Reading through the posts so far, reminds me of the reasons why weekday eucharist in the Lutheran Church is not the norm. A Eucharist in the Lutheran understanding is a celebration of
Word and Sacrament, and the celebration of the Word normally includes an exposition of the readings. Most of the posters so far, seem to treat the sermon as an option and not as a fundamental part of the eucharistic service.
While a long sermon may not be best, some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service. It's important to consider that daily prayer originated in the early church, while daily eucharist had it's origins in monastic or cathedral communities.
Lutherans have trouble with a purely devotional understanding of the eucharist, for its tendency to objectify the Mass, turning it into a work. I have no qualms about weekday eucharistic celebrations. In seminary weekday eucharist was the norm, along with morning prayer or service of the word. It always included a robust sermon.
This may be one area where Lutherans and Anglicans, so united in many matters liturgical, pull in different directions.
 
Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
... some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service. It's important to consider that daily prayer originated in the early church, while daily eucharist had it's origins in monastic or cathedral communities.
Surely the prayers of the people present to God and to ourselves something of our need for God’s grace. The early church might have met together for prayer often, but do we think they preached at each other? I thought preaching in new testament times was to make converts to the Faith, not to lecture the already convinced.

Augustine the Aleut’s post summarizes my thoughts pretty closely. I have been moved by the reading of scripture, the words in the prayer book and and hymns, but the sermon? Seldom if ever.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
One of the neat things about being a Lutheran is that everything is optional!* Sometimes the omission of one thing serves to clarify or call attention to others. If it would encourage more frequent church services by taking the pressure off the clergy to prepare something lengthy, then I am all in favor of omitting the sermon on a weekday. If they can pull off a very short sermon (the basic premise of this thread), then more power to them, but this would probably take seminary training and a comedic hook to pull the pastor off-stage is s/he goes too long.

I do feel that the Sunday morning service has lost quite a bit of effectiveness in reaching people at an accessible time, and that shorter non-Sunday services are the way to go.

As far as other groups go, I do recall that the late Pope John Paul II was obsessively in favor of the homily at every celebration of Mass, so it's not just us who are a bit sermon-happy.

*I'm afraid that in Lutheranism, this often continues "everything is optional, except the sermon, the announcements, and the anthem"! And I'm also being a bit hyperbolic.

[ 28. June 2012, 20:18: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
One of the neat things about being a Lutheran is that everything is optional!*

*I'm afraid that in Lutheranism, this often continues "everything is optional, except the sermon, the announcements, and the anthem"! And I'm also being a bit hyperbolic.
It appears this bug has bitten the United Methodists as well.
 
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
I thought the Eucharistic Prayer itself proclaimes our need for grace, e.g. "All glory be to thee, Almighty God, our heavenly Father, for that thou of thy tender mercy, didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the cross for our redemption; who made there, by his one oblation of himself once offered, a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world...Wherefore, O lord and heavenly Father...we now offer unto thee, the memorial thy Son hath commanded us to make; having in remembrance his blessed passion and precious death, his mighty resurrection and glorious ascension;rendering unto thee most hearty thanks for the innumerable benefits procured unto us by the same...most humbly beseeching thee to grant that, by the merits and death of thy Son Jesus Christ...we...may obtain remission of our sins...And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins to offer unto thee any sacrifice, yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service, not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offenses, through Jesus Christ Our Lord..."

That, of course, is the traditional Rite I language of the American BCP 1979, but all Eucharistic prayers encapsulate the same essential ideas as to our dependence on the grace of God through the redemption of the Cross and Resurrection.
 
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :
 
At the little service I go to sometimes the priest tried to use lectio divina instead of a sermon. She's refined it a bit now, so this is how it works: someone reads the gospel, she preaches very briefly on the context, someone else reads it a second time and then we sit in silent prayer for about 5 minutes. The silence ends with a third voice reading the passage - then we move on to prayers.
It's quite a nice way to get some contemplation into the middle of the working day.
 
Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by uffda:
While a long sermon may not be best, some presentation of our need for God's grace, is, to me, a necessary part of the service.
When calling for some presentation of our need for God's grace, I did not mean to imply that nothing in the entire service presents our need for God's grace. I was addressing the OP which referenced the sermon.

The re-emphasis of the sermon by the Reformers corrected an imbalance in the medieval Mass. This is simply the tradition within which I stand. I mean no disrespect to others who feel
differently. And, as I said before, this is why
the tradition of weekday eucharist is not the norm in Lutheran Churches today.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Inspite of my occasional protests against a sermon at every celebration of the Mass, that is, in fact, my practice. However, my weekday efforts are noticeably shorter and simpler than the Sunday sermon. The average weekday sermon is about 6-7 minutes, as opposed to 12-15 on Sundays. The weekday sermon tends to be one point special or a potted history, rather than an exposition of one of the lessons. That said, I think all the Reformation era stuff I read at University got to me - I seem to have a 'no mass without communicants and sermon rule.'

PD
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I rather like the idea of Hairy Biker's priest using a form of lectio divina in the place of the homily. Next time I have to celebrate a Liturgy of the Word with Holy Communion from the MBS, maybe I'll give it a try - we have a number of peeps who would be willing to read if asked!

Ian J.
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
It's quite a nice way to ...
... to drive the ADHD folk completely bonkers.
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?

I much prefer a few minutes of sound biblical exegesis during weekday masses, but that's just me.
 
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?
I've been hearing about it for 10 years since becoming a Benedictine oblate, but it does seem to be coming up in more general discussion lately. The meaning of the term seems to vary from the formal-ish four-step process to a sort of meditative repetition of the text between long silences.
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
At the little service I go to sometimes the priest tried to use lectio divina instead of a sermon. She's refined it a bit now, so this is how it works: someone reads the gospel, she preaches very briefly on the context, someone else reads it a second time and then we sit in silent prayer for about 5 minutes. The silence ends with a third voice reading the passage - then we move on to prayers.
It's quite a nice way to get some contemplation into the middle of the working day.
I actually really like this idea. You'd have to have the right congregation (one that you know has a capacity for silent contemplation), but it could work really well in the right context.

It's actually somewhat similar to how I start Bible Study (we'd then move to a discussion of what came up for people in the silence). My go-to approach for running bible study is that it's my job to give them the context; it's the job of the whole group to do the 'so what?'
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Could one call Lectio Divina a fad, or am I just hearing about it now that I'm in seminary?
I've been hearing about it for 10 years since becoming a Benedictine oblate, but it does seem to be coming up in more general discussion lately. The meaning of the term seems to vary from the formal-ish four-step process to a sort of meditative repetition of the text between long silences.
It is "in" with the non-Benedictine crowd right now.

PD
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.

When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.

Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?

[ 29. June 2012, 15:55: Message edited by: leo ]
 
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
It is "in" with the non-Benedictine crowd right now.

PD
I usually encounter the slow, repetitive readings with silence in between. It makes sense as far as fads go- one gets to sit and feel feelings without any of that onerous talk about exegesis or doctrine.
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.

When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.

Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?
Whether or not this was tongue-in-cheek, [Overused]
 
Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
My pastor is an excellent preacher. His weekday homilies can last up to 10 miutes making the Mass about 40 minutes long.

A few blocks away at another parish the homilies are about 2-4 minutes making the Mass just under 30 minutes. That way they can do back to back Masses on the half-hour during the week.

At St. Patricks Cathedral I've seen priests go straight from the Gospel to the Offertory making the Mass about 15-20 minutes.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I don't think I've ever been to a normal weekday Eucharist (i.e. not a special holy day service) at which a sermon or homily was preached. Deo Gratias! A good 20 minute Anglo-Catholic low mass suits me fine.
Me too. Why can't clergy resist the urge to preach? I wish they'd leave us alone.

When I was working full time and attending a daily 7.30am, i had to be on the bus to work at 8. Not possible with a sermon.

Do these preaching addicts not realise that they are fostering a religion for the elderly and retired and turning away the active?
Whether or not this was tongue-in-cheek, [Overused]
Entirely serious. People complain and ask 'where have the young people gone?' yet they time services around the schedules of the elderly when most people are at work, when families are getting their children sorted out etc.
 
Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
As one of those who doesn't have much time in the day for daily mass, I'm happy with the nearest parish's daily masses, which generally have no sermon except on holy days and special seasons (Like lent and easter)

I don't have an aversion to weekday homilies, just no time t spare. At my home parish, usually the 6:30 AM mass has no homily and no intercessions (because most of it's attendants are the sisters and other teachers at the parish school, the nearby hospital, or one of the two nearby colleges) and the 8:30 has both of these. It's a good balance.
 
Posted by windsofchange (# 13000) on :
 
I used to attend weekday Mass at a little RCC chapel in downtown L.A. (now closed and looking very abandoned and sad) staffed by two priests. There would always be a short homily at the noon Mass (when the majority of people attended).

Father A was the heart and soul of the chapel; everyone loved him and he said Mass wonderfully. However, his homilies were ... rambling, to put it kindly. They started out well enough but then he'd kind of drift off topic and finish way far away from where you initially thought he was going.

Father B was obviously just there killing time till something better came along. He was polite enough but no one really got to know him. And he ad-libbed the Mass to the point where those of us who were more tradition-minded resigned ourselves to yet another opportunity to "offer it up". However - his homilies were KILLER good. Five minutes from start to finish, always 100% related to the Gospel of the day, always with an excellent point, and often very helpful to one's daily life.

I used to wish I could somehow squish Fr. A and Fr. B together into Fr. AB, the perfect priest who would say Mass like a dream and deliver killer homilies. But I could never figure out the science. [Biased]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
In a city centre or big suburban parish it is pretty much essential to have short, non-preaching, communion Masses either early or late - or around 12.15pm if you are down town. Otherwise one misses out on a lot of the passing traffic.

Even in my small town parish I have one guy who never makes it on a Sunday, and if it were not for the Weds. morning Mass he would not get to church at all.

I often look enviously at Dearmer's advocacy of a Sunday schedule of 11am Matins; 11.40am Sermon: 12noon Communion. I like a substantial sermon on Sundays, but the modern Parish Communion tends to work against any serious preaching because of the pressure to keep things under an hour.

PD

[ 29. June 2012, 19:03: Message edited by: PD ]
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I like a substantial sermon on Sundays, but the modern Parish Communion tends to work against any serious preaching because of the pressure to keep things under an hour.

PD
Local TEC place, Rite II, can be in and out in 45 minutes with a 10-minute sermon. If it went an hour, that would provide time for a 25-minute sermon, although that certainly dominates the service with a gluttonously long sermon!
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Sounds to me as though they rather scamper over the liturgy. However, I am used to Sung 1928/Rite One, so with a 10 minute sermon one does not get much change out of an hour.

PD
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Sounds to me as though they rather scamper over the liturgy. However, I am used to Sung 1928/Rite One, so with a 10 minute sermon one does not get much change out of an hour.

PD
Definitely not, and they sing four hymns on top of it! I suppose it is noteworthy that Rite 2 basically only includes an acclamation and the Collect for Purity between the opening hymn and the Gloria. Five to seven minutes tops, from the start of the procession to the first reading. Maybe five minutes for the readings, with a spoken Psalm. They don't dawdle unnecessarily with texts, and I would say that they maintain a RC pace, rather than an Anglican one, for texts such as the creed. That reminds me, there are not a few RC places around here that can.be out in 45 minutes on a Sunday morning, although they usually have less hymnody and a more efficient communion distribution system.

[ 30. June 2012, 01:17: Message edited by: Martin L ]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
Rite Two is pretty terse all round, IIRC - a bit like Series 2 in England. I imagine they can get five minutes in the bag that way. Also, do they have a General Thanksgiving and Absolution. It is quite common now to omit them, which absolutely scandalizes me. Receiving the sacrament without receiving absolution first gets me into a purple panic.

I grew up on the old 'Shorter Prayer Book' in England, and you could get things done fairly quickly with that liturgy. We ran a bit over 20 minutes for a said Communion with no sermon, and about 55 minutes with four hymns and a sermon.

PD
 
Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
Yes, they do a general confession and absolution, but once again, Rite 2 expedites things. I just timed out the invitation to confession, five seconds of silence, a deliberately spoken prayer of confession and absolution at 48 seconds.
 
Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I've never understood the necessity for a sermon unless the preacher is really gifted or has something of special significance to say. It seems to me that it is the sermon that most relucant churchgoers complain about the most. I think the worst sermon I ever heard was from a priest who spent most of the minutes allocated berating the congregation for not coming to church - but we were there! He did the same the following week, so needless to say I went elsewhere.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Entirely serious. People complain and ask 'where have the young people gone?' yet they time services around the schedules of the elderly when most people are at work, when families are getting their children sorted out etc.
Yes, but there is NO TIME IN THE WEEK when those with work and/or kids are easily available.

Even if you ignore short-workers (and quite a few of our congregation work shifts) the ordinary working day is spread out - "9 to 5" is perhaps an average working day but its far from universal. Some people leave for work before 7am. Other full-time workers don't get up till after 9. Some are home before 4 to make tea for the kids, others aren't back till 8 or 9.

The early evening, say 5pm to 7pm, is the most valuable time of day for working parents with young kids. Its often the only time someone who works full-time gets to see their children. Its an utterly insane time to schedule meetings or other events if you want them to come. But for single people without children who are in full-time work its the deadest time of the day. Nothing happens then. Too early to go out for the night. No point in going home if you are the only person there. You might as well stay at work.


Then there is the commuting gap. For various reasons people who commute to work tend on average to start and finish work later than those who work near where they live. Add the commuting time on, and you've got a couple of hours time shift.

So what's the minister to do? There is no time that works for everybody, or even for a majority. Our vicar keeps on trying to schedule things on weekdays and keeps on getting rebuffed by the congregation because by far the easiest day of the week for most people is Sunday!

As for Saturdays. If I'm "on duty" at church on Sunday, then, as I work Monday to Friday, Saturday morning is the only decent sleep I get all week. I used to refuse any request for me to do churchy things on Saturday morning. Then I started ignoring them, because I ceased to be able to reply politely.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
From what I remember of my working life I have pretty much resigned myself to not seeing working folk except on Sundays. The exceptions are Christmas Eve and Ash Wednesday, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday when you will get the more enthusiastic there provided you get the timing right. 7pm seems to be the safest bet around here.

As a result I tend to gear my midweek services to the retired. This might sound like the counsel of despair, but as we are not a downtown parish in a big city it is realistic. You have to look at what is going on outside the front door and adjust accordingly.

PD
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
What ken and PD say is right. You can't expect working people, or those with children, to come to anything midweek. My last parish was in the city centre and there were almost as many communicants on weekdays (in total) as on Sundays, but they were quick 25-minute masses at lunchtime. Even that was difficult for some people as 'nosebagging' at the desk began to take over from a proper lunch break.

Most residential parishes have got to resign themselves to fitting everything into the hour (or slightly more if you're lucky) on Sunday morning. I think it's important, though, that the daily office, and eucharist at least on major feasts, continues to be offered through the week even if only a faithful few retired folk turn up. It's the worship of the Church and all members share in it in some way even if they can't be present in body.
 
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
When I was in my twenties and working, there were a number of churches nearby with weekday masses. I was delighted and even managed to attend mass every day in Easter Week.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
City Centre parishes tend to be big exceptions on a lot of counts. Even a High Church Protestant like me can see the need for a 20 minute Communion Service in those circumstance. In a reasonably well off city centre parish I could well see myself doing - Monday Music; Tuesday Teaching; Wednesday Communion; Thursday Prayer Meeting; Friday communion all at lunchtimes for about 20-25 minutes.

PD
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
When I was in my twenties and working, there were a number of churches nearby with weekday masses. I was delighted and even managed to attend mass every day in Easter Week.
That is an achievement Venbede. I have heard Easter week called the week of Sundays, and even the old Prayer Book had special readings for the Monday and Tuesday, maybe even more, I can't remember.

Now though I think it would be hard to do what you were able to do in your twenties, except in London. So many churches seem to close the doors during the week, and even if they are open at times they seem to be closed on Bank Holidays like Easter Monday.

It's the same after Christmas. We have those lovely festivals of St John and St Stephen but very few churches seem to observe them as we'll as they observe similar holy days at other times of the year.
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
I agree that a weekday Mass is to be short--in and out in about half an hour. People DO have TV shows to get back to.

Also, I don't see any reason to conflate "proclamation of the Word" with preaching. A first lesson, a psalm and a gospel portion have all been proclaimed. A minute or so of reflection on the saint or something else is all that is most people need.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Also, I don't see any reason to conflate "proclamation of the Word" with preaching.
[Overused]
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

Also, I don't see any reason to conflate "proclamation of the Word" with preaching. A first lesson, a psalm and a gospel portion have all been proclaimed.
Agreed, if it's that way round. In other words, the Word is proclaimed simply by reading it. But if you mean that 'preaching' is not 'proclamation of the Word' but something else I am baffled. [Confused]
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:

Also, I don't see any reason to conflate "proclamation of the Word" with preaching. A first lesson, a psalm and a gospel portion have all been proclaimed.
Agreed, if it's that way round. In other words, the Word is proclaimed simply by reading it. But if you mean that 'preaching' is not 'proclamation of the Word' but something else I am baffled. [Confused]
Don't be baffled, you got it!

I mean I think it often would be better to have a couple of lessons from the Bible at a midday Eucharist, (perhaps with a minute of silence ?)without a forced commentary.
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I've never understood the necessity for a sermon unless the preacher is really gifted or has something of special significance to say.
Well in the USA, the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist. There is no rubrical option for the omission of a sermon, such as are found for certain days with omission of the Nicene creed, Gloria in excelsis or the General Confession.

However there is also no requirement as to sermon length, so invariably during midweek or early Sunday Masses, or in midweek, non-choral saints and other festival day Masses, most priests prepare a little sermon or homily; brief remarks on the readings or short, but pertinent reflection material, 3-8 minute stuff. Quickies!

It's also an excellent idea to briefly break the Eucharist with a quiet sit down for all, Quaker style, for 3-5 minutes. The priest can offer reflective material and then join in the few minutes of quiet: Still quick, fulfills the rubric and adds a peaceable quality to the Mass.
*

[ 10. October 2012, 02:55: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Well in the USA, the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist.
Mr. Rob, would you favor us with a citation?
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Last night's low mass here took 26 minutes and included a one-minute homily of the Psalm (139) and the little sit down between the ablutions and the final prayer.

Nothing felt rushed.
 
Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Well in the USA, the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist.
Mr. Rob, would you favor us with a citation?
Not sure what Mr. Rob is thinking, TSA, but I would guess that the section of the Holy Eucharist called 'The Sermon" is in the same sized font as as other parts, "The Collect," "The Prayers of the People," and so on but unlike some of the other parts, there is no "may."

I guess too that this is why the celebrant almost always feels they MUST "say a few words" at this point, regardless of the mood.
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Not sure what Mr. Rob is thinking, TSA, but I would guess that the section of the Holy Eucharist called 'The Sermon" is in the same sized font as as other parts, "The Collect," "The Prayers of the People," and so on but unlike some of the other parts, there is no "may."
If one is really following the rubrics to the letter, then one may at the liturgy of the word utilize Morning or Evening Prayer, both of which have an optional sermon.

Also, if one technically follows the so-called Rite III rubrics on p. 400-401, which are perfectly permissible for a weekday eucharist, then one can quite easily omit the optional "talk."

And if one just happens to include the entirety of the rest of the Rite I or Rite II liturgy, as printed earlier in the prayer book and certainly not forbidden by "An Order for Celebrating the Eucharist," then so much the better.

[ 11. October 2012, 00:22: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The 1928 BCP Rubrics are looser in this regard. The cumulative effect is indicative rather than prescriptive. To cut a long story short 'if there is a sermon, it comes here.' The Canons of the period seem to prescribe a sermons on Sundays and (Greater) Holydays, so on a wet Wednesday of no other significance than that the Eucharist is being celebrated, then you are free not to preach.

In order to discover what the preaching requirement is in the newer boks it is often necessary to delve around in the rubrics before or after each Order of Service, or even in the General Instructions in the front of the Book. At the end of the day it still comes down to a should for every Eucharist, but a must for the main Eucharist on Sundays and Greater Holydays. You just have to wade through more rubrical crap to discover the relevant tidbits of information.

As a rule I tend to think that midweek Eucharists, with obvious exceptions such as Ascension Day, should be short and to the point. That is to say all required elements (including two readins and a psalm) present, but generally in the shortest authorized form. I would rather have room for reflection than have to gabble through to make the schedule.

PD
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Well in the USA, the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist.
Mr. Rob, would you favor us with a citation?
Here I am, citations in hand. As Mama Thomas mentions above, on page 326, for Rite I, and 358, for Rite II, The Sermon is listed in bold faced type as one of the invariable parts of the Holy Eucharist, with no enabling rubric for its omission such as are found with some other movable or optional part of the Mass.

For an example of rubrics allowing options, look a page 359. At the bottom of the page there is Confession of Sin is bold type. Discretionary rubrics are found in smaller, italic type below to enable options which must be read in conjunction with Additional Directions rubrics beginning on page 406.

One would need to dig deeper into the history of the sermon in the context of the Holy Eucharist 1979 prayer book revision, consulting the research work done by Marion Hatchett in his 1979 American Prayer Book Commentary in the first instance, to find out more about why the sermon was not made optional.

Marion Hatchett Bibliography

And of course Olaf is quite correct when he mentions An Order for Eucharist , commonly called "Rite III," intended for use only on when the occasion is not the principal Mass of Sunday or Mass of a weekday which serves as the weekly Mass of a parish. The item Proclaim and Respond to the Word of God on page 400, allows the omission of a sermon or homily. It allows for most anything or combination of things, as long as a Gospel reading is included.

However the use of a "Rite III" Mass form does not include swapping out its rubrics when convenient and applying them to the Masses of Rites I & II.
*
 
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
However the use of a "Rite III" Mass form does not include swapping out its rubrics when convenient and applying them to the Masses of Rites I & II.
*
There is nothing to prevent this.

"Rite III" is all about flexibility, since it does not expressly forbid the use of Rite I and Rite II texts. Also, since it actually preserves the Great Thanksgiving largely in its entirety, it can likewise be assumed that this would be allowable.

There are only so many ways one can rearrange liturgical actions within the scope of "Rite III," and I'm afraid that most liturgies that comply with "Rite III" rubrics would end up looking very much like Rite II.

[ 11. October 2012, 22:19: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
From Hatchetts' Commentary on the American [1979] Prayer Book:
A sermon or homily has been required at the Eucharist from the time of the 1549 Prayer Book. The exposition of the lections just read was a regular part of the Eucharist in the early centuries. Later...preaching became less regular...Luther required a sermon at every Mass...The first Prayer Book required a sermon or the reading of a homily at each Sunday or holy day Eucharist. The exception for the weekdays was not included in the 1552 revision. It is to be noted that the permission in many of the previous Prayer Books to allow announcements, hymns, or prayers to be inserted between the Gospel and the sermon has been totally deleted in this present revision.
quote:
From Shepherd's Oxford American [1928] Prayer Book Commentary:
Despite the frequent custom in the Western Church of celebrating the Eucharist without a sermon, it is noteworthy that the Prayer Book never speaks of sermons except in connection with Holy Communion...Both in word and in deed the Holy Communion is the proclamation of the eternal, life-giving Word of God revealed to us in our Saviour Jesus Christ.
quote:
From the 1549 BCP:
After the Crede ended, shall folowe the Sermon or Homely, or some portio of one of the Homeleys, as thei shalbe herafter deuided: wherein if the people bee not exhorted to the worthy receiuyng of the holy Sacrament of the bodye and bloude of our sauior Christ: then shal the Curate geue this exhortatio, to those yt be minded to receiue ye same.
quote:
From the 1552 BCP:
After the Crede, if there be no sermon, shal follow one of the homelies already set forth, or hereater to be set forth by commune authority. [There follow the announcements.]
quote:
From the 1559 BCP, quoted using Booty's modernized orthography:
After the Creed, if there be no sermon, shall follow one of the homilies already set forth or hereafter to be set forth by common authority.
quote:
From the 1662 BCP:
Then shall [after the Creed and various notices] follow the sermon, or one of the Homilies already set forth, or hereafter to be set forth, by authority.
quote:
From the American 1816 BCP:
[After the Gospel, then] shall be read the Apostles' or Nicene Creed...Then shall the minister declare [the announcements]...Then shall follow the sermon...
quote:
From the American 1928 BCP:
[After the Gospel, then] shall be said the Creed commonly called the Nicene, or else the Apostles' Creed...Then shall be declared [the announcements]...Here, or immediately after the Creed, may be said the Bidding Prayer...Then followeth the Sermon.
quote:
From the English "deposited" 1928 book:
And the Gospel ended, shall be sung or said the Creed following [Nicene], the people still standing as before...Then shall the Curate declare [the announcements]...Then shall follow the Sermon, or one of the Homilies already set forth, or hereafter to be set forth, by authority.
quote:
From the Canadian 1959 BCP:
[After the Gospel, then] shall be sung or said this Creed [the Nicene] by the Priest and people...[Then the minister makes the announcements.]THE SERMON [small caps]
quote:
From the American 1979 BCP, Rites I & II:
[After the Gospel]The Sermon [in large bold face] On Sundays and other Major Feasts there follows, all standing The Creed [in the same large bold face]
quote:
From rubrics of the English 1980 Alternative Service Book:
[Holy Communion A & B]The sermon is an integral part of the ministry of the Word. A sermon should normally be preached at all celebrations on Sunday and other Holy Days.

[The typography in both communion services for the Sermon and the Creed follow the lead of the American and Canadian books.]
The "announcements" contemplated in the older prayer books are notice of holy-days, fasting-days, upcoming celebrations of communion, briefs, citations, and excommunications. The American 1928 book adds "and other matters to be published."

Also, Shepherd tells that the form of Sunday divine service at the time of the first American prayer book was "Morning Prayer, Litany, and Ante-Communion, except four times a year when the full Communion service was celebrated. A sermon was always delivered..." (71).


So, one can see that there is, in fact, no rubric as to the sermon in the American 1979 as there was in all the previous prayer books. The rubric as to the content and location of announcements is also gone. The normativity of a preached sermon at the eucharist is expressed only typographically, this practice starting with the Canadian 1959 book and extending through the American 1979, to the English ASB.

The 1979 Book contemplates only weekly, Sunday celebrations of the eucharist, together with a celebration on Major Feasts, certainly even today, honored only in the breach. The book was also published at a time when Morning Prayer was being displaced at the principal divine service on, as they started calling it, the Lord's Day.

A daily eucharist was never in view; there was no daily eucharistic lectionary.

One may note that, in actual American practice, the placement of announcements before the Sermon or before the Peace is as widespread as crab grass.


A sermon at the Sunday eucharist ought to be preached. Of that there is no dispute.

However, at those parishes where the mass is celebrated on weekdays, outsiders should not to presume to dictate the form of piety where the daily celebration does not include a preached sermon.

If we Episcopalians tolerate, nay luxuriate, in prolix announcements at places where they are not expressly permitted by rubrics of the prayer book, perhaps we can graciously pass by the omission of the sermon at the daily mass at catholic parishes.
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
[QUOTE]

... outsiders should not to presume to dictate the form of piety where the daily celebration does not include a preached sermon ...

... perhaps we can graciously pass by the omission of the sermon at the daily mass at catholic parishes ...
Good grief! Outsiders? Outsiders to what and where?

And who said anything about dictating anything to anyone?

We pick our locations parishes, piety and church-person-ship, or lack of them, and that's nobody else's business. Let me assure you that I don't don't care where or when you attend Mass, or if you attend Mass all, wherever you might be. Believe me, I don't belong to the Episcopal Church police or Episcopal Church rubric police.
*
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Excellent, thank you for the clarification. Backing away from the assertion that "the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist" (original emphasis retained), we return to the position that the American Episcopal Church customarily grants great latitude in regard to local practice at the celebration of the eucharist—and, announcements.
 
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Excellent, thank you for the clarification. Backing away from the assertion that "the necessity is that the rubrics of the 1979 prayer book require a sermon at every Holy Eucharist" (original emphasis retained), we return to the position that the American Episcopal Church customarily grants great latitude in regard to local practice at the celebration of the eucharist—and, announcements.
The original statement about a sermon or not at the Eucharist came from a shipmate in Australia who didn't see the necessity of always including one (at a weekday Mass, I assume.). I merely wanted to comment on the absence of a discretionary rubric for the omission of a sermon in Rites I & II of the USA 79 prayer book. As a consequence, there are priests of my acquaintance who feel more compelled to prepare at least something by way of a brief homily or reflection at weekday Masses.
*

[ 12. October 2012, 19:08: Message edited by: Mr. Rob ]
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Silent Acolyte posts:
quote:
However, at those parishes where the mass is celebrated on weekdays, outsiders should not to presume to dictate the form of piety where the daily celebration does not include a preached sermon.

If we Episcopalians tolerate, nay luxuriate, in prolix announcements at places where they are not expressly permitted by rubrics of the prayer book, perhaps we can graciously pass by the omission of the sermon at the daily mass at catholic parishes.
Gee whillickers. As I cheerfully comment awsy on others' piety and practice, I can hardly complain when they cast their two denarii worth. Indeed, I often agree with them.

This may be a serious case of YMMV, especially as I attend very few anglophone RC outlets, usually frequenting French- or Spanish-speaking temples of the Scarlet Lady and almost never on Sundays so I can really only speak of weekday Masses, but I do not think I have ever attended an RC Mass without at least a brief homily. Admittedly, they are rarely very good, but they are there.
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
Parishes holding a daily celebration are really fortunate. I live in a country parish, and until recently the incumbent (MOTR) managed a daily eucharist and built up a small but regular congregation. Sadly, a new incumbent has curtailed the frequency of the celebration.

The nearby town parish also has a daily eucharist but strangley there is no mention on the church notice board of the times (which vary) AT ALL. The only way one can tell is to look on the internet or ask someone. This has the effect of restricting attendance to those in the know, as it were.

It is a huge blessing to have this privilege and should not be underestimated - with or without address.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I remember lamenting on here a few years ago about the decline in weekday masses in the C of E. When I was ordained (some time in the mists of the last century) it was very common, even usual, for town parishes of the sort that would be described as 'Prayer Book Catholic' or even MOTR, and above, to have a celebration every day (maybe except the Vicar's day off). Most low and evangelical churches would have at least one celebration during the week and usually also on Prayer Book Red Letter days.

Nowadays even some of the Anglo-catholic shrines don't manage this. Part of the reason must be comparative shortage of clergy; part dwindling congregations. But part of it seems to be a sense that 'we put on these services for the benefit of the people, and if they don't come it's not worth bothering', rather than that there is value in an objective offering to God no matter how popular or unpopular it might be.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
Sebby points to a very real problem. Perhaps wishing to keep their noticeboards simple and aesthetic, parishes with weekday celebrations rarely post them. On other threads, we have noted how many parish websites are not well-constructed, and it can take 3-5 clicks to get weekday times, and some parish websites do not even give service times (!).

Main entrances are often not used, or are locked, and visitors are apparently expected to know where the celebration is to be held. If it is in a side-chapel in the church, as is usually the case, this can be managed without much difficulty. However, some churches have their chapels in meeting rooms in the basement, or in an odd part of the building (in one case, across the road), so one must be definitely in the know to find them. In my travelling-for-work days, I would say that I had problems in about a third of instances, and was unsuccesful in more than a tenth. As walking about a city as it wakes is an agreeable experience, my time was not wasted, but it can be frustrating.
 
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
TSA and Mr. Rob:

I realise that you are both keeping to the point of the debate, but try not to let it become personal. Like an energy-saving bulb, Eccles thread should produce plenty of light with only minimal heat!

Thanks

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
During our previous regime, the so-called 'weekday entrance' was indeed invisible from the street, and known only to the faithful one or two who attended the daily Mass (though on some occasions, the congregation consisted of the Vicar alone......).

We now have our regular services on all three notice boards, with extra notices each week to emphasise that week's activities. The main door is always used, and the bell runf before each service. The two weekday Masses have a congo of anything between 8 and 14, and daily Morning Prayer can get up to 7 or 8.....penny numbers, I know, but not bad for a little backstreet parish!

All services and activities are easily seen on our two websites, which are regularly updated.

None of this is exactly rocket science or time-consuming!

Ian J.
 
Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :
 
I think that size of congregation in such a location is excellent Ian J. And your people are to be praised for their dedication.

So many churches have their doors firmly shut on weekdays, and sadly some that have weekday services are not very accessible - remote side doors etc.

Just a very brief aside - times vary to suit circumstances. However is their a restriction on weekday Eucharist times?
Not that I imagine any have celebrations at 2 am on a weekly basis.

I guess Anglicans, and several other denominations have no restrictions, but what about RCs or Orthodox?
 
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Sebby points to a very real problem. Perhaps wishing to keep their noticeboards simple and aesthetic, parishes with weekday celebrations rarely post them. On other threads, we have noted how many parish websites are not well-constructed, and it can take 3-5 clicks to get weekday times, and some parish websites do not even give service times (!).

Main entrances are often not used, or are locked, and visitors are apparently expected to know where the celebration is to be held. If it is in a side-chapel in the church, as is usually the case, this can be managed without much difficulty. However, some churches have their chapels in meeting rooms in the basement, or in an odd part of the building (in one case, across the road), so one must be definitely in the know to find them. In my travelling-for-work days, I would say that I had problems in about a third of instances, and was unsuccesful in more than a tenth. As walking about a city as it wakes is an agreeable experience, my time was not wasted, but it can be frustrating.
Thank you. You also describe EXACTLY the situation in the town church. I don't know how they expect people to pop into a weekday celebration if it is a tightly kept secret, Perhaps it is only meant for a charmed inner circle?
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Gee whillickers. As I cheerfully comment awsy on others' piety and practice, I can hardly complain when they cast their two denarii worth. Indeed, I often agree with them.

This may be a serious case of YMMV, especially as I attend very few anglophone RC outlets...
AtA, this exchange is very intramural, the catholics involved being of the TEC variety. Its intramural nature is why it radiated the heat resulting in comment by our irenic host.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Gee whillickers. As I cheerfully comment awsy on others' piety and practice, I can hardly complain when they cast their two denarii worth. Indeed, I often agree with them.

This may be a serious case of YMMV, especially as I attend very few anglophone RC outlets...
AtA, this exchange is very intramural, the catholics involved being of the TEC variety. Its intramural nature is why it radiated the heat resulting in comment by our irenic host.
ahhh... i misunderstood what was going on. This is a strong motif in my life.
 
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We have our two weekday Masses timed for when we can expect a congregation - 730pm on Wednesdays (and major Holydays like Ash Wednesday, All Saints etc.) and 930am on Saturdays (our open morning for coffee, visits re Baptisms etc.). Morning Prayer during the week is also at 930am - later than some might like, but it suits our priest-in-charge (who lives out of the parish and would otherwise be struggling through the rush hour!).

I know of churches which find midday or thereabouts a good time, and one or two which have mid-afternoon services e.g. in conjunction with a Seniors' Luncheon Club, Mums n'Toddlers or whatever - the C of E does not, AFAIK, place any embargo on particular hours of the day.

Ian J.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Morning Prayer during the week is also at 930am - later than some might like, but it suits our priest-in-charge (who lives out of the parish and would otherwise be struggling through the rush hour!).
10 am would suit better those of us whose free travel pass kicks in at 9.30! [Biased]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Walk, Father. It will do you good.
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
True. But also make me late.
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Walk faster/leave earlier.

Anyone would think that you lived in a big, northern city.
 
Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Come to Wales, Father
We can use our bus passes at any time.......
 
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
...there is a bus. Which outside the cities can be fairly rare.
 
Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
We do not have a specific embargo on certain hours, but Mass does tend to be celebrated in the morning - usually starting somewhere between 7.30am and 11am. I am assuming this is a hangover from the old fasting from midnight days. I think in the rather conservative High Church circles I move in there is still some resistence to evening Masses except on major holydays when one has no other option if one wants folks to attend.

PD
 


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