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Originally posted by PD:
....Chaps, BTW, are needed because cowboys rope from horseback and one often ends up with the ropes trailing back across your legs....

PD

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

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Originally posted by Spike:

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Originally posted by sebby:
There was a very silly, one might even say immature, habit in the late 1970s, to perhaps the end of the 1980s, when clergy seemed to abandon the clerical collar in the CofE, and the Church Times seemed to relish taking photographs of such persons so dressed.

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Really? I don't remember that at all. Perhaps I was worshipping at the wrong sort of church.

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Quite possibly! Alan Bennett made a few amusing references in some of his work to vicars who didn't look like vicars because it wasn't the right thing to do any more - wearing trainers, or no collars.

'Where did you get those shoes?'
He said, 'They're training shoes.' She said, 'Training for what? Are you not fully qualified?' He said, 'If Jesus were alive today, Mrs Whittaker, I think you'd find these were the type of shoes he would be wearing.' 'Not if his mother had anything to do with it,' she said. 'She'd have him down Stead and Simpson's and get him into some good brogues.....'

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Alan Bennett made a few amusing references in some of his work to vicars who didn't look like vicars because it wasn't the right thing to do any more - wearing trainers, or no collars.

'Where did you get those shoes?'
He said, 'They're training shoes.' She said, 'Training for what? Are you not fully qualified?' He said, 'If Jesus were alive today, Mrs Whittaker, I think you'd find these were the type of shoes he would be wearing.' 'Not if his mother had anything to do with it,' she said. 'She'd have him down Stead and Simpson's and get him into some good brogues.....'

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Originally posted by (S)pike couchant:
]Quite so: legal, academical, and clerical dress all share a common origin. Thus, the dress for priests, barristers, and BAs/MAs is very similar, as is that for bishops, judges, and doctors. The clearest indication of this may perhaps be seen when comparing the convocation dress of an Oxford DPhil with the ordinary quire dress of an Anglican bishop.

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Padre Joshua opined:
I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?

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Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

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Padre Joshua opined:
I was under the impression that grey and light blue were worn by deacons and possibly seminarians, black by presbyters/priests, and purple by bishops. Am I incorrect?

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Ah, you're looking for consistency and logic!?

In the Episcopal Church in the USA, you'll find that customs vary, especially by diocese. In my particular diocese, vocational deacons were instructed by a previous bishop to wear grey (I've seen blue) while performing their diaconal ministries in the community. They are not to wear clericals in the parish, and they certainly aren't to wear black. Priests, on the other hand, tend to be seen in black but sometimes in whatever.

As a seminarian, I was told by friends to ask the bishop before wearing a "seminarian's collar," and color was never mentioned. I mostly avoided the whole thing and wore a shirt and tie until ordination.

Now, I wear a black clerical shirt when I need to look priesty, though a blue or grey shirt sure looks tempting when it's 100 degrees outside!

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Originally posted by leo:
Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My diary runs out soon, should I buy a new one or can we fit it in?

AtB Pyx_e

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Originally posted by leo:
You can come and do my last rites then.

I have a sort of fantasy of being on my deathbed at a local hospital and being approached by a minister in a blue shirt. Blue denotes, for me, the sort of churchpersonship that means that before I made my confession I would have to explain the minister what s/he had to say and do.

Too much hassle. May as well die unshriven and trust that God is as merciful as he says he is.

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Sebby retorted:
Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?

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Originally posted by Basilica:
I was recently at a bedside when the presence of a chaplain was requested. She came in a frilly cream clerical shirt and declared that the Last Rites had been abolished and that nowadays we just do anointing. I didn't quibble (it wasn't quite the moment, and the person in question was a low-church Methodist anyway), but it was a bit of a struggle...

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Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

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Sebby retorted:
Why wouldn't a vocational deacon wear a collar in the parish?

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An excellent question, and I don't want to derail the discussion at hand.

Basically, the bishop revived the vocational diaconate (which to my knowledge had never been a part of this diocese) and was dealing with the difficult task of making clear to everyone involved the distinctive role of vocational deacons over and against priests, bishops, and lay persons. I'm sure he wanted to avoid the perception of the deacon as "junior priest," and it had something to do with the role of deacon in mission outside the parish rather than as liturgical assistant within. It's a complicated and thorny issue and how it's addressed will evolve over time.

Obviously, it's about far more than coloured shirts!

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Originally posted by sebby:


It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

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Originally posted by sebby:
Not entirely recent. The compilers of different versions of the BCP were also (to an extent) willing to look Eastwards.

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True, I think, of the Scottish and American books to a small degree (although Episcopalians choked way back on the Eastern borrowings of the Non-Jurors). Both traditions, to say nothing of the English, are still pretty clearly Latin Rite, and the theology behind them is Augustinian via the Reformed. It doesn't get much more Latin than that.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Originally posted by sebby:

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

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Originally posted by regulator reverend:
Many will be horrified, but I wear black clericals when very formal, but clergy t-shirts (with tunnel collars) when less formal, but I still want ot be seen in the collar. They come in some delicious colours.

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I take it you don't mean these then?

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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!

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Originally posted by Papouli:

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Originally posted by sebby:

It's like the custom in some AC churches of not calling a male cleric 'Father' until he is in priest's orders. There is no reason whatsoever for witholding the title - in Orthodoxy I understand that in some places even monks who are lay are called 'Father'. It is not a refernce to a sacerdotal function.

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Traditionally, the Orthodox address all members of the priesthood and monastics as "Father." Until the beginning of the 20th century, in Greece, even Readers were called "Father" (as they possess the first degree of priesthood in the Church).

In the US, the Antiochians began the custom of calling Deacons by their ministry (ie Deacon John) rather than the correct form of Father John. I'm sure they copied this from the Catholics, but it is certainly incorrect (do we call someone Priest John or Presbyter John?). This non-traditional custom has, unfortunately, crept into the other archdioceses here.

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Originally posted by sebby:
I have noticed that the tunnel neck variety seem to be the most common - well, amongst the clergy one sees around. The more formal sort showing white all the way around with a space at the front seem more recent creations (1980s) but not as common.

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

These posts are kind of funny, though.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
That last one ended in an almost mystic reverie - "and the Church Times, such a person, such a dress...".

I could almost imagine those being my last words on Earth, sitting in a peacock chair with a glass of gin in my hand, gazing out at a rural sunset.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

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Originally posted by Mamacita:

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Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Looking at the contributor's three posts thus far, I detect a bot. I'm sure the hosts and admins will pick up on it and act accordingly.

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Judging from the alerts posted in the H&A lounge, it seems like they strike most often in Eccles. Perhaps they know where to find the cleverest retorts.

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