Ship of Fools: Black Mitre

Thread: Black Mitre Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Miss Madrigal (# 15528) on :

In the BBC's presentation of Henry IV Part 2 (shown last night) the Archibishop of York was shown wearing a rather fetching black mitre. I've seen many a gaudy mitre, but never a black one. Was this dramatic licence? Would we see such a thing in action today?

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

In the Catholic Church and (usually) the Anglican churches there are only three types - one is white, one cloth of gold and one that may be decorated with precious stones, but still on a plain gold background, so I suspect the answers to your questions are yes, dramatic licence and no, it wouldn't be seen today.

Having said that, TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...

[ 15. July 2012, 14:25: Message edited by: Boat Boy ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...

Case in point.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

From the look on the face of the bishop with the crozier, he's suffering from a s severe case of mitre-envy.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

I'm not surprised, when he's been left wearing a quilt as a cope.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
I'm not surprised, when he's been left wearing a quilt as a cope.

Maybe it's a holy comforter.

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

A quick Google search pulled up this, which mentions a "mitra nigra." I will have to defer to the Ecclesiantics Latin brigade to confirm whether I translate correctly or not.

When it would have been used, I have no idea. The traditional three mitres go back quite far.

A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.

Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy? If so, it may have simply been dramatic license, as you suggest? I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.

[ 15. July 2012, 17:35: Message edited by: Martin L ]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.

No doubt you can obtain such a thing, but you would hope that any bishop sufficiently au fait with traditional vestments to wear black for a requiem would understand that a mitra simplex is the only possible mitre for such an occasion.

(The use of the plain linen mitre is required for requiems, Good Friday and indeed throughout Lent according to the Ceremonies of the Modern Roman Rite.)

Posted by Miss Madrigal (# 15528) on :

Outstanding work, shipmates, thank you.

quote:
Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy?

No, it was a Shakespeare history play so it was awash with blood, but the Archbishop was just doing some general Archbishoping rather than anything liturgical.

As for the episcopal tribute to Zippy, George and Bungle, all I can say is, "Wow!". That really is quite something, isn't it?

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
An example of Martin L's xeric wit:
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.

Ostensibly a reference to episcopal headgear, on this thread pocked with potshots at TEC, Martin L expects us to pass by this gem without comment.

quote:
RUSSIAN LIFE TO-DAY
BY THE
Right Rev. HERBERT BURY, D.D.

Bishop for Northern and Central Europe

Author of “A Bishop among Bananas”

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Potshots? Is it not true then that TEC bishops often wear more garish mitres than those from other churches?

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
Case in point.

I suppose if ever the TEC Primate (is that the right title?) ever tires of her mitre, she could always use it to take the roast out of the oven.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
A quick Google search pulled up this, which mentions a "mitra nigra." I will have to defer to the Ecclesiantics Latin brigade to confirm whether I translate correctly or not.

When it would have been used, I have no idea. The traditional three mitres go back quite far.

A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.

Was the program depicting a requiem liturgy? If so, it may have simply been dramatic license, as you suggest? I have little doubt that one can obtain a black mitre to match one's black cope and chasuble nowadays. In the past, I believe a Mitra Simplex (plain white mitre) would have been used at a requiem.

White linen for a requiem. However, that does not cover the now suppressed neo-Gallican Uses which may have had different customs.

PD

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
An example of Martin L's xeric wit:
A black mitre is mentioned here, in connection with an abbot.
Ostensibly a reference to episcopal headgear, on this thread pocked with potshots at TEC, Martin L expects us to pass by this gem without comment.
quote:
RUSSIAN LIFE TO-DAY
BY THE
Right Rev. HERBERT BURY, D.D.

Bishop for Northern and Central Europe

Author of “A Bishop among Bananas”

Like a true Reference Librarian*, I diplomatically refrain from judging. Thus is my normal practice, anyway.

*which I am not

[ 15. July 2012, 20:20: Message edited by: Martin L ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

Surely the point here is not what the rubrics say now, but what they said in early 15th century England. And I, for one, haven't a clue.

I think I once read somewhere that in the Orthodox Church (or bits of it), the most important festivals get the "best" vestments, regardless of what colour they are. Might there have been similar rules at the court of King Henry IV? (Regardless of which of his Parts we're talking about.)

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Samuel Seabury had a black mitre and wore the mitre when no one else did. It had been modified from a top hat, and as the top hat was a new fashion at the time we can surely say that he was in the very avant-guarde of Anglican bishops. There's a picture of it somewhere on the web. I shall have a look to see if I can turn it up.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Here we are. It's more ornate than I had recalled. There's another photo somewhere else in which you can make out that it was created from a different piece of headgear. I don't suppose the good bishop possibly had more than one of these things?

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

It's certainly true that in 15th Century England many churches would simply have had one or two sets each of 'light' and 'dark' vestments for festal and ferial days as they couldn't afford every colour, but I suspect the Archbishop of York wouldn't have that problem...

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
It's certainly true that in 15th Century England many churches would simply have had one or two sets each of 'light' and 'dark' vestments for festal and ferial days as they couldn't afford every colour, but I suspect the Archbishop of York wouldn't have that problem...

Oh I don't know. Scruffy buggers, some of them.

Or there could be two sacristans sniggering in the background, one saying to the other, "I can't believe you sent him out in the black. Did he really not notice?..."

At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style?

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

Well orthodox bishops have black headgear don't they ? Presumably, therefore, coloured mitres were a later development - so early on post-schismatic bishops in the west probably had black mitres.

(That's my reasoning and I'm sticking to it.)

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style? [/QB]

Well, Edward King, the Bishop of Lincoln, was the first Anglican bishop to actually wear a mitre since the Reformation (as opposed to simply putting one on a coat of arms). He had two and they are both of the low, early mediaeval style. They're now in the loving care of the sacristy at St Stephen's House. Very fetching they are too...

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :

There is a little diagram of the progression on wiki.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
TEC bishops seem to have some extraordinary tastes in colourful headwear...
Case in point.

We've all heard of a heart bypass, but I'd call that a taste bypass.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

At the risk of a(nother) tangent, how and when did mitres go from this rather fetching little number to this "what do you mean, build a higher door?" style?
Well, Edward King, the Bishop of Lincoln, was the first Anglican bishop to actually wear a mitre since the Reformation (as opposed to simply putting one on a coat of arms). He had two and they are both
of the low, early mediaeval style. They're now in the loving
care of the sacristy at St Stephen's House. Very fetching they
are too... [/QB]

You do realise that Samuel Seabury, Bishop of Connecticut and the first bishop consecrated for the American Church wore the mitre long before Edward King -- indeed in the late 18th Century?

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Not in England (sorry if that seems a little provincial, but I was only thinking of England as the thread was about the Archbishop of York).

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Plus King's look nicer that Seabury's [Razz]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frmaniple/270050485/

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is a little diagram of the progression on wiki.

Goodness, how they grow! Anybody would think that the space between some bishops' ears was filled with some sort of highly effective fertiliser ...

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Plus King's look nicer that Seabury's

http://www.flickr.com/photos/frmaniple/270050485/

Well! I have never been so insulted in all my life! And even our Primate's mitres fail to please you. There's just no pleasing some people!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.

That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.

[ 16. July 2012, 21:20: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :

Not only that, but I can think of no group at all whose entire membership is immune to tat faux pas.

Besides, for all we know the Presiding Bishop likewise found this set questionable, but for diplomatic reasons felt obligated to wear it.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.

That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.

woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.

That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!

You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you have an axe to grind about TEC, so why shouldn't we see your comments here as just another snide pot shot?

We've been getting that a lot around here lately. [Roll Eyes]

[ 16. July 2012, 21:58: Message edited by: Zach82 ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I am hardly going to defend the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments, but I do see it as particularly vicious, hateful idiocy to try to make the case for the apostasy of the Episcopal Church with it- and that seems to be the general gist of people who see the need to bring it up.

That may be, if I might say so, why there is a perception that potshots are being taken at TEC.
woah Woah WOAH! At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!
You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you have an axe to grind about TEC, so why shouldn't we see your comments here as just another snide pot shot?

We've been getting that a lot around here lately.

Where?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Oh Lord. Your posts on this very thread reveal a habit of making vicious generalizations about TEC.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

At the risk of this becoming a little hellish, I think that to accuse me of 'vicious generalisations' and 'snide pot shots' for saying that I thought a couple of mitres tasteless is rather rude and unnecessary.

Who's using 'vicious generalisations' now?

[ 16. July 2012, 22:19: Message edited by: Boat Boy ]

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Forgive me, dear Eccle-hosts, for distracting from the general course of this thread. I swear I thoroughly regret starting to hoe this row of turnips.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
At no point have I suggested, hinted, intimated or demanded that anyone leave the TEC because of the Presiding Bishop's taste in vestments!

Does it reveal me as shallow that some episcopal TEC getups—never mind the bendy poles—suggest, nay demand, the very same to me?

Now you get out of my bird blind, so I can get on with letting loose my own rhetorical volleys! I can't reload with you crowding me like this.

[ 16. July 2012, 23:21: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

What are the bendy poles exactly? I've heard a couple of Americans mention them but I've not heard of them here.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Bendy poles be wondrous machines, to some known as Spirit Banners. These be long flexible poles cunningly krafted of polyurethane esters to which be affixed a bit of comely bunting to be waved and twirled about in Solemn Procession of ye Church.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
There is a little diagram of the progression on wiki.
Goodness, how they grow! Anybody would think that the space between some bishops' ears was filled with some sort of highly effective fertiliser ...

I particularly enjoy the one in the top row, center, mostly because I am a congregationalist at heart and have an emotional age of twelve, I think that making all bishops, everywhere, everywhen wear an asshat would be hilarious.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Bendy poles be wondrous machines, to some known as Spirit Banners. These be long flexible poles cunningly krafted of polyurethane esters to which be affixed a bit of comely bunting to be waved and twirled about in Solemn Procession of ye Church.

Gosh...erm......gosh...

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Googling bendy poles gets us nothing. "bendy poles" church is no better.

But, shiver me timbers, "bendy poles" episcopal (as in "church") scores!

It's so embarrassing, but then, "To whom, Lord, should we go?"

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

SA, surely there be better photographic images than that! I shal endeavor to find a true and proper image of a Bendy Pole for the general edification.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

This young maiden doth exemplify the bearing of ye Bendy Pole right well, albeit outside ye parrish church -- a procession out-of-doors, no doubte.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Forgive me, dear Eccle-hosts, for distracting from the general course of this thread. I swear I thoroughly regret starting to hoe this row of turnips.

Thank you, Zach82. The good ship seems to have righted herself since this post, so I won't comment further.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

[ 17. July 2012, 02:45: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

And if you guys are going to mock bendy poles, then at least do it up right with a photo of one trailing a dove. Sheesh. [Snore]

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
Not only that, but I can think of no group at all whose entire membership is immune to tat faux pas.

Besides, for all we know the Presiding Bishop likewise found this set questionable, but for diplomatic reasons felt obligated to wear it.

I really tend to lean in the direction of "Wears what she's been given", myself. I wish people wouldn't give her things that look like fancy potholders!

The one time I saw her in person was at my own bishop's installation, when she was Bishop of Nevada and PB-elect.

She stood on the patio at Grace in hugely-rare-in-San-Francisco 95 F heat and received well-wishes from attendees. She was wearing a white cope and mitre over her alb (she was one of the few bishops with an Eucharistic role so was not in choir dress like most of the other bishops in attendance).

I remember thinking the decoration on the cope to be quite pretty - ISTR it was a braid/Celtic knotwork motif outlined in blue, orphrey style, solid white sides and back. I don't think that any regular Eccles denizens would have found it objectionable at all.

Disclaimer: I should ask whether Grace owns such a cope. They've got closets full of vestments, many of them quite lovely. It was a great treat to be given a backstage tour by our own churchgeek and get to fondle the garments appreciatively.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

I'm sure I've seen a video of a procession in which bendy poles were used. Chances are the link was posted on here. But "bendy poles church" on YouTube yields nothing.

I've typically seen mitres matching copes in my church life. When I've seen bishops in chasubles it's normally been the parish's euchies, so the mitre wouldn't have matched.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Mamacita - so rude posts like those from Zach are acceptable are they?

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

I believe there are bendy poles with streamers in a recent video of a celebration of the centennary anniversary of St John the Divine, but would have to find it. I believe they are correctly referred to as spirit banners, although I've never been in a place where they were actually in use. I tend to go in more for the flabella and ombrolino kind of shacks.

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

Does anyone know if they've ever been seen in the UK? I certainly haven't seen any (thank goodness).

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Oh dear! I here offer and present a completely cringe-inducing video of the re-dedication service for the Aeolian-Skinner organ at St John the Divine in 2008. It is first necessary to endure a half dozen maidens perseveratively waving white banners about (flags of surrender?)until the bendy poles really come into view at about 2 mins 30 secs into this horror flick. Actually, you can see the bendy poles in the east end of the nave almost from the beginning, but they don't get into the procession and start bending about until about two and half mins into the thing. So here it is. [Waterworks]

Posted by Boat Boy (# 13050) on :

What exactly are they meant to be for?

I shan't say what I think of them, since they're from the TEC, so I would probably be accused of 'hateful idiocy' again.

What I will say is how amazing the Cathedral looks.

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
Mamacita - so rude posts like those from Zach are acceptable are they?

Had I arrived on the thread between 21:18 and 22:23 yesterday I would likely have issued a warning. When I reviewed Ecclesiantics last night, Zach82 had already posted an expression of regret, and, as Host, I accepted that.

If you are not ready to move on, you have a couple of options. You can take the issue to Hell. If you want to express further concern over my judgment as a Host, the correct forum for that is the Styx.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

[ 17. July 2012, 13:51: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boat Boy:
What exactly are they meant to be for?

I shan't say what I think of them, since they're from the TEC, so I would probably be accused of 'hateful idiocy' again.

What I will say is how amazing the Cathedral looks.

What are they for? I'm told they're meant to represent the Holy Spirit. Actually, the ones used at St John the Divine are pretty cool IMO -- just not as liturgical accoutrements. They'd be quite nice in some strictly secular parade or festival. I've actually seen far more pathetic bendy poles in various videos -- ones with just some skimpy little bit of stuff tied on the end. I'm afraid they evidence the mania for banners in the American Church generally. There are all manner of innovative banners to be found - not just in TEC - amongst Christians on the left side of the pond. They're almost all tacky and awful; certainly if they were made after about 1970. Truthfully, I'm not even all that keen on the better made, more traditional ones from the early or mid-20th Century. They're fiddly in procession, and often strike me as rather drab, besides just being more clutter in many instances.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

I recently saw my first bendy poles standing in the corner of a parish church. I was at a funeral and my eye caught these odd looking things in the corner. When I inspected them I was horrified to see them! (Just joking)...

I don't think they symbolize anything really, they are just meant to be festive in my estimation.

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

I see bendy poles as a sort of visual incense, though incense itself is mentioned repeatedly in scripture and has the benefit of covering up your neighbor's BO in a way that streamers on bendy poles just don't. While I prefer incense to bendy poles, and consider it a shame when there is a bendy pole but no incense, either is far preferable to giant puppets.

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