|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Preaching Undressed
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
If the celebrant/presider at a service of the Holy Eucharist is also the preacher, does he/she wear the chasuble while preaching?
In my limited experience – I have been a long-term member of just two different Episcopal churches over 3 decades, so you might say I don't get around much – the celebrant wore only alb and stole until the Liturgy of the Word was completed. I took for granted that this was standard operating practice, and the occasional comments I've seen in Eccles have been consistent with that.
On the other hand, we recently completed an interregnum with a priest who wore the chasuble for the entire service. Is this a common practice in other places? Does it signal a particular churchmanship? Or is it a matter of preference/personality?*
We've had a string of supply clergy over the summer, and it's been about 50/50, so that offered me no clue.
*[I might add that this individual had, shall we say, issues with power and authority, so I have wondered whether that might have influenced his/her choice.]
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
I have to say that probably most of the TEC places I've visited where the preacher was the celebrant, he/she wore the chasuble from entrance to exit. There have been a couple where the preacher was a different person, and in one case the celebrant still wore chasuble from entrance to exit, and in the other case wore alb and stole until the liturgy of the table began. I missed the actual putting on of the chasuble, but I think it took place while the deacon was receiving the offerings and arranging the altar.
This is in the US South, and churchmanship was... Well, it was Rite II, no incense, and across a variety of sung or said responses. MOTR for the US, I think.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I missed the actual putting on of the chasuble, but I think it took place while the deacon was receiving the offerings and arranging the altar.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that's how it worked. It was certainly subtle.
quote:
Rite II, no incense, and across a variety of sung or said responses. MOTR for the US, I think.
Yep, that's us.
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
[check sig first!]
From my visits around this corner of the diocese, I would probably put it at 60/40, with 60% using chasuble the whole time, and 40% "dressing for dinner." That said, all bets are off in the summer, when chasubles are used less frequently, even mysteriously when the space is air conditioned. Your summer situation was probably a reflection of this, more than anything else.
This diocese has a very Modern Roman Catholic liturgical style to it, so it doesn't surprise me that priests would employ the Catholic chasuble-the-whole-time practice.
One also must take into account whether the parish has a cope in the correct liturgical color available. Episcopal priests seem to love their copes, and when they use them, they usually dress for dinner during the collection.
Does the preference indicate churchmanship? In my observation, priests around here who wear the chasuble the whole time lean toward modern Roman Catholic and tend to be liturgically higher, while priests who wear alb and stole for part or all of the time tend to be quite MOTR, and trying to seem less fussy, more family-friendly, or less off-putting.*
I know, doesn't it seem silly that anyone could possibly think that changing vestments mid-service is less fussy, or that it might be a visual color-overload to newcomers to see the priest at the beginning of the liturgy wearing a chasuble instead of a plain white alb with a little swatch of color?
*In church visiting, I know how long the sharing of the peace will last based on what the priest is wearing. Chasuble=short, alb & stole=oh brother!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
Sorry for the double post.
I should have added that women around here are far less likely to wear a chasuble than men. In fact, I think I have only encountered one, and it was one I never would have expected. Yours was special, I guess. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
|
Posted
In our shack, a chasuble stays on for preaching (such as at our 9 a.m. Sung Mass), but a cope comes off (such as at our 11 a.m. Solemn Mass). At Solemn Mass, the deacon and subdeacon do the honors of removing and replacing the cope on the celebrant. Cope gets exchanged for chasuble at the start of the Offertory.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
|
Posted
IME (and this seems related to what Oblatus reports), in a high Mass (or, in many places, principal Sunday service) if the preacher and celebrant are one and the same, the chasuble goes on during the offertory. They will usually wear a cope coming in, and sometimes change back after Communion (especially if it's the Bishop).
However, in weekday or early Sunday a.m. or Sunday p.m. services, they'd wear the chasuble throughout.
My experience is in Episcopal cathedrals (Sun. & weekdays), and weekdays also in Catholic churches, as well as Episcopal and Catholic seminary chapels.
[ 13. August 2012, 05:47: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The argument for wearing the Chasuble for the sermon is that the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Table form one, united, complete Mass. The Chasuble is the vestment for the Mass, not just the liturgy of the table. To put on the Chasuble at the offertory would symbolize that the Liturgy of the Word is not part of the "real" Eucharist.
The reason why a cope is worn for a Procession is that a Procession is considered separate from the Mass. By that logic, the cope can also be worn for the first portion of the Easter Vigil since the Mass proper does not start until the Glory to God.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Of course, chasubles are banned here, but there's none on copes*. At our church, the Presider wears a cope throughout, save for any sermon he preaches; the crucifer helps remove and re-vest the cope.
* A chasuble is clearly a vestment which can be worn for a sacrifice, while a cope just as clearly is unsuited to that.
[ 13. August 2012, 06:35: Message edited by: Gee D ]
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I must say I'm gobsmacked. The president wears the chasuble for the whole service: it's all an entity.
It's very rare in my experience in England to see otherwise: low church bishops wearing a cope for the entire service, an priest of evangelical background at a baptism only putting on a chasuble after using the water, a small church with a nice black cope using it for part 1 of All Souls.
As for anything called "High Mass", I'm amazed that the chasuble isn't used throughout.
(I'm not meaning to be all huffy and disapproving: I'm just saying my reaction.)
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I think this is a pond difference again. In some circles in the Cof E there was a brief fashion for not donning the chasuble until the offertory when the new rites started to come out in the 1960s and 70s, but it didn't last: I think the message that the Mass is a unity of word and sacrament got through.
Part of it might have been the notion that the chasuble is a 'sacrificial' vestment, which is clearly why it is banned in the diocese of Sydney and why many other Anglicans felt that it shouldn't be worn outside the eucharist (including the liturgy of the Word). But the official line of the C of E is that there is no doctrinal significance to any vestment, hence that argument fails.
The justification for wearing a chasuble is IMHO that it links us with the custom of the majority of the Church world-wide and across time. The Eucharist is the assembly of the people of God and the president thereof shows that s/he represents the wider Church, partly by wearing the traditional vesture. Word and Sacrament are essential parts of this assembly, but it can also include other elements such as Baptism... there is no reason for dressing or undressing during the course of the liturgy. If one was wearing a cope (a strange and uncomfortable garment) there might be a need to remove it if it got in the way. I hate the things!
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Part of it might have been the notion that the chasuble is a 'sacrificial' vestment, which is clearly why it is banned in the diocese of Sydney and why many other Anglicans felt that it shouldn't be worn outside the eucharist (including the liturgy of the Word). But the official line of the C of E is that there is no doctrinal significance to any vestment, hence that argument fails.
The justification for wearing a chasuble is IMHO that it links us with the custom of the majority of the Church world-wide and across time. The Eucharist is the assembly of the people of God and the president thereof shows that s/he represents the wider Church, partly by wearing the traditional vesture. Word and Sacrament are essential parts of this assembly, but it can also include other elements such as Baptism... there is no reason for dressing or undressing during the course of the liturgy. If one was wearing a cope (a strange and uncomfortable garment) there might be a need to remove it if it got in the way. I hate the things!
I agree entirely with you, but the sense of your comment appealed to the powers that be here no more in 1910, when the ++ directed that chasubles not be worn than in 1949, when the Sydney Synod formally banned them.
[ 13. August 2012, 09:01: Message edited by: Gee D ]
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
Many years ago I attended a church that strictly followed the Roman ritual (post Vatican II) with an unapologetically central altar but Anglo Catholic style and a mainly Caribbean congregation.
Come the sermon, the preacher (in chasuble of course) mounted the pulpit, and the entire sanctuary party of servers and assistant priests (no priests dressed up as deacons) left the sanctuary to sit at the side of the aisle.
Therefore the congregations could concentrate on the preacher (and Father was one of the best preachers I've ever known)without being distracted by movement in the sanctuary. Always struck me a bit unnecessary.
Pity they couldn't accept women priests. Great pity.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
|
Posted
I still remember the days, when the celebrant removed his chasuble, before starting the sermon.
It was rather universal,Roman-Catholic,Old-Catholic,Anglican and Swedish Lutheran.
I am glad that this tradition has gone now.
With regard to commence the Mass in a Cope, this is rather an American Custom.
I have seen it in St.John the Divine, New-York,but not in Washington Cathedral,which is a little bit lower than its counterpart in New-York.
Strangely enough,the Anglican rite Catholics in Texas have kept this custom e.g. the Our Lady of the Antonement in San Antonio.
As already mentioned before, the Chasuble has no doctrinal associations,e.g. all the Scandinavion Lutheran Churches, have continued the use of this vestment after their break with Rome.Even Fiddle back chasubles were in use in Sweden.
So the Anglican Church in Sydney is wrong, by not allowoing the chasuble to be worn at the Eucharist.
But I saw once a picture of a priest wearing this vestment in St.James Church in Sydney,
which is unlike Christ Chiurch St.Lawrence, not Anglo-Catholic,where copes and incense are the rule.
Should I conclude that there are always exceptions, even in Low-Church Sydney ?
--------------------
Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
|
Posted
Changing clothes in mid-liturgy (save for that necessitated practically by the occasional full immersion baptism) is always a mistake. The Prots in the CofE played around with Geneva Gowns for preaching; the ultra Catholics sometime try to get you to vest differently for the eucharistic prayer. Indivisibility of word and sacrament. Vesting differently for one or other is theologically incoherent.
--------------------
Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
|
Posted
I seldom to never see the chasuble removed for the sermon now, which of course is part of old rite ceremonial.
As will be generally realised, in modern usage, the celebrant is vested in exactly the same manner, all the way through the Mass (or other service); this is in the interests of simplicity.
For example, in the old rite Easter Vigil ceremonial, it was usual for a single-handed celebrant to change variously to/from deacon's dalmatic; priest in cope; priest in chasuble, which of course was cumbersome. Nowadays, it is more usual (and more seemly) for the celebrant to be consistently and invariably wearing the customary Mass vestments all the way through, for the Easter vigil liturgy.
--------------------
Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
the ultra Catholics sometime try to get you to vest differently for the eucharistic prayer. .
Not the sort who follow the General Instruction to the Roman Missal. That sort of thing is much more MOTR High Church.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
When precisely to wear a chasuble is not a question which arises frequently in a British Methodist context(!) but what I would say is that we've had a bit of a journey (and arguably we are still on it) to see the Eucharist as an integral part of the service. For too long, it was a stay behind affair for the pious - the regular preaching service would happen, the minister would greet those leaving at the door and the return to celebrate communion beginning at "Ye that do earnestly..." (remembering that the 1936 Methodist liturgy is very close to the 1662 rite). When we celebrate the Eucharist, the whole service is the Eucharist from beginning to end and I would always want to steer away from anything that might lead us to regard the ministries of word and sacrament as being somehow separate.
[ 13. August 2012, 13:01: Message edited by: seasick ]
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
As Angloid said, there was a time when it was a bit 'right on' and a la mode to put the chasable on at the offertory and not for the liturgy of the word.
However common in TEC, this incoherent liturgical practice of aging trendies with open-toed sandals and wispy beards died out in the more rural backwaters of England in the mid80s, I think.
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
There is one place when the presiding priest changes vestment which is when there is a procession at the start or end of mass.
I rather like it: a cope looks right in a procession. although I suspect the new Roman rules are probably to wear the chasuble for an entire function.
The change of vestment usualy takes place discretely in the sanctuary. I remember going to one small but exotic shack with a coped procession. The chasuble was laid out on the altar rails. The priest faced it, took of his cope, which was then held by the MC fully spread out while the priest modestly put on the chasuble out of sight.
I was young and foolish and murmured to my partner "It's a backless alb".
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
this incoherent liturgical practice of aging trendies with open-toed sandals and wispy beards died out in the more rural backwaters of England in the mid80s, I think.
You can make your point, sebby, without these stereotypes.
I am sitting here with grey hair and open toed sandals. My beard, I'm glad to say, is not wispy but carefully groomed.
I completely agree with your basic point despite my footwear and facial hair not finding your favour.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I was young and foolish and murmured to my partner "It's a backless alb".
That reminds me of the quip of a friend of mine when we were visiting a church that had a freestanding altar, fully vested on the front but bare and with the structural timbers showing at the back where it had been pulled away from the wall. He said he expected the priest would wear a chasuble in front and vest and braces behind.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
|
Posted
The practice in my A-C parish here in the American southland is that the celebrant wears a cope for the entrance, whether a formal procession or just a parade up the center aisle, and changes to chasuble (and maniple) as the gospel procession moves into the nave. This, while a little quirky, is sort of coherent with what is done in many other places.
BUT !! after the Blessing and Dismissal the cel changes back into the cope for the grand exodus (complete with incense).
To my way of thinking, that's not catholic practice, just high-church fuss-and-feathers. (YMMV, obviously)
--------------------
You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mettabhavana
Apprentice
# 16217
|
Posted
quote:
You can make your point ... without these stereotypes.
I hope not - that would spoil at least half the fun of Ecclesiantics!
--------------------
And are we yet alive?
Posts: 39 | From: London, England | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
Depends on the intent. Stereotypes can be used playfully or as put-downs. I saw more of the latter in sebby's post. Perhaps one's mileage varies.
I have suspected that the differing practices I described above have to do with the former rector's distinct, intentional non-fussiness in most matters. By that I do not mean sloppiness, much less incoherence: he was a stickler for well-ordered liturgy. I think he possessed a strong ethic of the liturgy being "not about him" to use the vernacular and so he echewed ceremonial bits that drew attention to him. His office, as well as the rectory, were decorated simply. On the other hand, when the interim arrived, she found a cope tucked away in the sacristy and brought it out for the Easter Vigil and used it much as described above. (Along with unearthing some giant silver candlesticks and more ornate liturgical hardware from previous eras.)
Which again leaves me wondering whether there is leeway in the practice and our parish's recent experience is due to the vastly different personal tastes of two priests.
[ 13. August 2012, 17:05: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
If there's no cope, I'll wear the crazier through the whole service. Unless it's really sweltering.
There are priests of a certain churchmanship, no doubt influenced by RC custom, of ignoring the altar until the offertory. They see the Mass as two services in one: the first of the Word the second of the Sacrament or Table or what have you.
The Word half will take place all over the church, the collect at The Chair, OT and Psalm and epistle at a lectern, though sometimes at the pulpit or even an ambo, and i have seen them resd in place by a parishioner The gospel will read in the midst of the congo, the sermon in the middle in front of the rails, or rarely at the pulpit or ambo.
After the Peace the Table will be set and if the celebrant is male, a chasuble will be donned. Women celebrants seem to prefer cassock-albs and large, wide stoles. Generally, though, as no two TEC churches or priests are a like.
Other priests will be at the altar most of the time except for the Gospel and sermon, and they tend to wear the chasuble throughout..
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
|
Posted
The swopping of clothes during a service most certainly draws attention to the wearer. However, there is a liturgical precedent for using copes in processions. It is a mark of the 'old rite' catholicism.
Incoherence can come in when things become a matter of personal whim or taste. I remember a friend saying being told at theological college after he expressed a wish to do something in particular in the liturgy 'Oh no! David's getting IDEAS. That is always dangerous. Stick to the rubrics' In that particular college it meant the General Instructions in the front of the missal. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
And then the altar is ignored, the first half's emphasis on the Chair and ambo.
But in the ordinary form, Roman priests will wear the chasuble from start to finish, a human link, the presider, linking the whole service together.
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
And then the altar is ignored, the first half's emphasis on the Chair and ambo.
Isn't the rationale for that, because it trivialises the altar to use it as a bookstand? Also, because the president ('celebrant' if you insist), while clearly 'presiding', has less of an active role during the liturgy of the Word. In fact, saying the greeting and the collect is the only essential part of it. Others read the scriptures and say the prayers; why should the priest remain standing at the altar meanwhile?
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
So the Anglican Church in Sydney is wrong, by not allowoing the chasuble to be worn at the Eucharist.
But I saw once a picture of a priest wearing this vestment in St.James Church in Sydney,
which is unlike Christ Chiurch St.Lawrence, not Anglo-Catholic,where copes and incense are the rule.
Should I conclude that there are always exceptions, even in Low-Church Sydney ?
A few points. How old was the photograph? Chasubles have been banned here for over a century. All priests are required to give an undertaking not to wear one, and any doing so will swiftly lose his licence (male gender everywhere in Sydney, of course). There are no exceptions. Subject to weather, copes are common wear. The rule is observed by clergy visiting from other dioceses and permitted to preside at a service in Sydney.
Then St James is Anglo-Catholic, as are quite a few others in Sydney, and you might like to look back at some Mystery Worshipper reports. Most of them are not as spiky in liturgical practices as CCSL, but the theology preached and general churchmanship are definitely at the catholic end of the spectrum, rather than the evangelical or Moore College ends.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
Ahh, the benefits of being located WITHIN the Diocese of Sydney, but not being part OF the Diocese of Sydney.
In our Community celebrations the Chief Celebrant (we use that term to indicate that there are other 'celebrants' who preside over different aspects of the service, such as readings, intercessions, etc, but only one Chief Celebrant) wears the chasuble from beginning to end, with the Deacon and Sub-Deacon in dalmatic and tunicle.
In my former Sydney parish, the celebrant wore a cope and the Deacon and Sub-Deacon dalmatic and tunicle. Mind you, given Sydney's extreme summer temperatures, the Deacon and Sub-Deacon were released froom the extra layer, and the chief celebrtant wore the cope into the church, removed it until the offertory, then wore it from then to the end of the service.
Thank heavens our Community gathers in air-conditioned comfort - so summer and winter we can maintain the same vesture code.
I have seen the chausble worn for only The Liturgy of the Sacrament: I too felt that this indicated two distinct and unconnected parts, whereas the Liturgy of the Eucharist is a continuous entity.
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by emendator liturgia:
In my former Sydney parish ... <snip> ... the chief celebrtant wore the cope into the church, removed it until the offertory, then wore it from then to the end of the service.
Emendataor Liturgia (thanks for adding the upper case ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), was there an explanation for this practice? It seems to differ from the generally accepted use of a cope (if I understand it correctly, see next paragraph) and gets us back to separating, as you pointed out, the service into two parts.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's entry on Copes is interesting in that it suggests (if I'm reading it correctly) the cope and chasuble may have been the same garment originally, before distinct uses emerged. In any case, it seems consistent with what I've gathered from other posts in Eccles, i.e. that the cope isn't used for the sacrifice of the Mass.
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
|
Posted
I don't have a lot of data points either but here are mine:
St Spike's - previous rector used to be fully vested for the entire 8 am service, but put the chasuble on during the Offertory at 10 am. (The chasuble had been carefully draped on the rails - at our place the rails are in a U-shape to the side of and in back of the altar, so the side rails near the presider's chair are "out of sight").
Interims carried on that practice for a short while and decided it was too much faffing about for them so decided to wear the chazzie for the whole 10 am service.
Occasionally, for festival days, one of them will want to wear one of their snazzy copes for entrance, so in that case we (Altar Guild) lay out the chasuble on the side rails as before if it is a Eucharistic service.
Cathedral - celebrant fully vested for entire 11 am service, probably for the 8:15 as well but I don't recall as there was not the grand procession and the clergy sat out of my sight for the service of the Word. Other clergy in stoles or stoles-and-copes. The Cathedral has a room full of copes. Churchgeek can advise if they have changed practice since I left.
--------------------
WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
I tend to associate 'dressing for dinner' with MOTR-Low parishes, any lower than that and it likelihood is that they will be alb and stole.
I usually start out in what I am going to wear for the whole service with a few exceptions such as Palm Sunday, when there is a procession before Mass, and I change from Cope to Chasuble after the Palm liturgy during the Introit/Opening hymn. I also try to be in my home parish for Holy Week.
I do occasionally remove the chasuble to preach, if it a warm day and a Gothic chasuble, but more usually I just remove the maniple.
When I am out bishopping it is not unknown for me to celebrate in rochet and stole, or rochet, black chimere and tippet - especially in desert parishes with unpredictable air conditioning. The general rule is that the junior warden will set the A/C for 78F, which is a tadge too hot for clergy in full vestments. The priest will turn it down to 70; then the junior warden will bump it back up to 78 when he is not looking. It is best to be prepared!
PD
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Emendataor Liturgia ... was there an explanation for this practice?
The only reason we did this was a practical one - in temperatures where the candles were dropping, it was just plain too hot to wear the cope for long periods of time - prefer liturgical innovation to having the chief celebrant passing out from the heat! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
That's an interesting link Mamacita . It's easy to look at the vestments and see how a shortened cope could be turned into a chasuble.
Think back to the Temple, with all those sacrifices of birds and beasts. A cope would have been totally unsuitable; shortening it and joining up the straight edges would have given a garment which could easily be worn while making sacrifices and have kept undergarments clean. The transition into Western liturgical vestments than becomes logical, as does the ban in Sydney where the theological position did not support the wearing of a vestment designed for sacrificing. A variation on lex credendi lex orendi*.
I'm not 100% sure how your community manages EmLi . I assume that your services are not conducted on diocesan property and that the community does not fall under the discipline of ++ Peter. The rest of us are bound by the ordinance.
* What you believe prescribes how you pray
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
I always understood a chasuble was a version of the normal formal wear of a Roman gentleman - a late form of the toga. It's origin would therefore be secular.
What Jewish priest wore is spelt out in Leviticus and I can't remember the details. But I'd be surprised if Christian priests would adopt it.
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
I apologise - where I said "ordinance" I should have said :canon".
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I'm not 100% sure how your community manages EmLi . I assume that your services are not conducted on diocesan property and that the community does not fall under the discipline of ++ Peter. The rest of us are bound by the ordinance.
Ahh yes indeed: we're an independent body that does not meet on Church Property Trust presmises - so free to do what we like, within the bounds of decency and reasonably good order.
When +Peter Watson presided and preached at last years Feast of Title celebration, he was given a hand-embrodiered chasuble and stole as a present. He loved it, though wondered where he could use it. My quick answer was "Feel free to come and celebrate here, Bishop!"
I seem to reacll an old Australian bush priest's definition of the perfect parish as being fifty miles from the nearest nun and one hundred miles from the bishop. (could have been the other way round)
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
And then the altar is ignored, the first half's emphasis on the Chair and ambo.
Isn't the rationale for that, because it trivialises the altar to use it as a bookstand? Also, because the president ('celebrant' if you insist), while clearly 'presiding', has less of an active role during the liturgy of the Word. In fact, saying the greeting and the collect is the only essential part of it. Others read the scriptures and say the prayers; why should the priest remain standing at the altar meanwhile?
Because it makes a great place to preside from. I really prefer ad orientem, with more or less trad positions and sliding the book stand all over the place. It has great meaning for me and many others. But in the vast majority places with the altar pulled out, the president of the assembly gathered, and the altar before the altar.
I am not alone in kissing the altar, opening the book, greeting the congregation, leading the act of praise of the Gloria, summing the gatherings prayers in the collect, all at the altar.
Sit for the readings, out of site, out of mind I hope, then proclaim the Gospel and preach on it from a pulpit, then pop back to the altar to lead the people in the profession of faith. I almost always "plug in" for the absolution and blessing, right from the altar, and from there pronounce the peace. I don't think it detracts from the second half at all or lessons the altar to a book stand.
But by now I'm learning to like all varieties of churchmanship. I never seen the same Mass twice!
--------------------
All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
So the Anglican Church in Sydney is wrong, by not allowoing the chasuble to be worn at the Eucharist.
But I saw once a picture of a priest wearing this vestment in St.James Church in Sydney,
which is unlike Christ Chiurch St.Lawrence, not Anglo-Catholic,where copes and incense are the rule.
Should I conclude that there are always exceptions, even in Low-Church Sydney ?
A few points. How old was the photograph? Chasubles have been banned here for over a century. All priests are required to give an undertaking not to wear one, and any doing so will swiftly lose his licence (male gender everywhere in Sydney, of course). There are no exceptions ...
I have read of one particular priest in the early 20th cen, in Sydney, who had a situation where he was able to defy the diocesan ordinance banning Eucharistic vestments and get away with it until he retired. I don't have the particulars at hand on this chap, but I can assure you that I did read about him and his courage. Perhaps, if it was an old photo, it was him that you saw' but I don't recall that he served at St. James, King St.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
As I noted before, the banning of chasubles was a 2 stage process. In 1910 or so, ++ Wright banned their use relying for his authority on decisions of the church courts in England. There was considerable doubt that these decisions were valid in Australia, and in the late 1940s, the position was regularised by a Synod vote. The matter came before Synod in a rather irregular manner, which does no credit to either T C Hammond, who moved the motion, or ++ Mowll, who did not rule it out of order.
That leaves a few possibilities. The first is that the photo predates ++ Wright’s ban. Then, he or a subsequent ++ may have given permission to a particular priest or for a particular occasion; as the ban until the late 1040s was by the ++, it could have been relaxed by one. This is rather doubtful.The photo may have been taken at somewhere such as St Paul’s College at Sydney University or The King’s School, not within the diocese in the same manner as a normal parish. It may be a photo of a Sydney priest in another diocese. My guess is that it is a pre-1910 photo as the most likely choice.
I’m at work and can’t check precise dates and so forth, but there is a good account (from memory) in The Archbishops of Railway Square , a history of the rectors of CCSL.
[ 17. August 2012, 06:33: Message edited by: Gee D ]
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
|
Posted
GeeD - from memory (not always a good tool) the pic was taken post-1910, but of a priest who had been inducted into his parish during the time of ++Barker - as Wright's decision only affected NEW incumbents into the diocese rather than current (which then had to wait until 1949 for final renforcement, as you mentioned), he was able to wear 'the garment' with impunity.
I'll try and dig up the material on the morrow when I am more awake and in a research mode.
--------------------
Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
