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MW Report 2440: Michaelsgemeinde (Schloßkirche), Pforzheim, Germany (Page 1)
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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: MW Report 2440: Michaelsgemeinde (Schloßkirche), Pforzheim, Germany
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Seems this is as good a place to answer the closing questions of MW Report 2440 as any, since it's so short and all:
quote:
2 – I enjoyed the style of service, and can imagine coming back again. However, I don't see how one can get involved. There was no announcement as to which liturgy was being used. There was no attempt to make conversation or draw our attention to any other church activities. There is no current information on any activities during the week or even wider social work available on the web. Where would one start?
For the most part, German churches don't do the sort of lay involvement one finds in English speaking countries. Churches are more or less considered to be a service the State provides its citizens like schools or hospitals. The buildings are maintained by the State, and priests are considered to be public employees.
To be fair, coffee hour and bible studies and the like are a fairly new thing in English speaking countries too. After confirmation, one didn't usually hang around church too much outside of services unless one was a vestryman. The wave of "education wing" constructions in the 90's was necessary because most church never needed a space for such at thing before.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
... coffee hour and bible studies and the like are a fairly new thing in English speaking countries too. After confirmation, one didn't usually hang around church too much outside of services unless one was a vestryman. The wave of "education wing" constructions in the 90's was necessary because most church never needed a space for such at thing before.
I do remember the 1950s when perpetual, every Sunday coffee hours were introduced as a new thing following the main service.
I'm sure you're right about the education wing constructions of the 90s, but that has also been a perennial thing, mostly initiated during the periodic financial booms of the late 19th cen until the present day. No boom, no money for additions. The 1950s saw a boom in new church construction.
The 1920s had a huge boom in church building and in additions constructed for Christian education, with space for the works of the social gospel. In the 1920s we find the general advent of the parish house. as distinct from many an old rectory or church basement.
Further, the first half of the 20th cen saw large parishes such as New York City's St. Georges, Styvesant Sq, St. Bartholomew's, Park Ave, Trinity Wall St; in Boston, Emmanuel, Newbury St and Trinity, Copley Sq; and in Pittsburgh, Calvary Church, that were able to raise big money to build large and complex plants, super parish houses, for multi-purpose use.
Now they have to pay the utility and maintenance bills for a lot of that building still standing and in use. That's a point of course, if possible, to remember in planning.
*
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
We have been to several churches in Germany and found the same thing. Not always (an 'Old-Catholic' church laid on a full buffet lunch, with beer and wine, and were very friendly) but mostly people were even more reserved than Brits.
The exceptions were a small 'Evangelische' church in Berlin (not that different from MoR Anglican) where we were practically adopted! I think because it wasn't a big famous church - just one that happened to be near our hotel - they were thrilled to have visitors.
A Vineyard-style chuch in Stuttgart was also very welcoming. They offered headphones for a translation of the sermon. (My A level German is a bit rusty!). However, the pastor went way off his notes and the poor girl had to translate on the fly!
By contrast a Willow Creek style 'seeker' church left us cold. Great music, a good sketch and a thought-provoking talk (the bits I could follow). But come coffee time, we were ignored completely.
We retreated to a nearby ice cream parlour where people couldn't be friendlier!
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
Like the other correspondents,I have worshipped many times in a lot of churches in Germany. I like best the style of worship in the German Roman-Catholic Church.Good liturgy and excellent music and hymn singing.
The German Old-catholic church is rather low church, quite different from its sister church in the Netherlands.
With regard to the Evangelische Kirche, its churches look always magnificent,good organ music but I find the worship in most churches rather dull.Communion is not frequently celebrated and I would like to see the ministers in alb and stole rather than in the current old-fashioned preaching-gown or talar.
The German Lutherans could a learn a lot from their sisters and brothers in Sweden, where you will find the best form of High Church Lutheran worship.This church has adopted some very good liturgical elements from the Anglicans and Roman-Catholics.
As to the coffeehour or the opportunity to meet the clergy and fellow-worshippers this is with the exception of special occasions, unknown with the German Churches.
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Robert Kennedy
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
As to the coffeehour or the opportunity to meet the clergy and fellow-worshippers this is with the exception of special occasions, unknown with the German Churches.
To what extent is this a quirk of the anglophone world?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
Please note that I am a Dutch citizen and living in the Netherlands.
Most of the Dutch churches offer the opportunity to meet each ofter after the Sunday worship.
We have adopted this custom from the US churches.
However like a lot of British churches we do not always have large parish halls.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Utrecht Catholic: Most of the Dutch churches offer the opportunity to meet each ofter after the Sunday worship.
I take it that you're talking about Catholic churches?
My parents go to a mainstream protestant (PKN) church. The tradition is that they'd have 'coffee after church' with the community every 4–5 weeks or so. In my experience, there are some churches that started doing this every Sunday, but that's a relatively recent thing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Utrecht Catholic
Shipmate
# 14285
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Posted
I am a Dutch Old-Catholic and in most of our parishes, everybody is invited for coffee,tea after the Eucharist.
The coffee hour is as far as I know,customary among most Dutch churches,Catholic or Protestant,particularly in large cities.
For those who do not like it, you have always the choice to leave.
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Robert Kennedy
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Liturgylover
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# 15711
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Posted
I would agree with the comments that Robert and Gill made above. My experience has been that some churches in Germany do have coffee after the service, but there is no general invitation to attend - I once stumbled across people having coffee on my way to the toilet and was not invited to join the "regulars".
I must also share a very negative experience I had in August at the St Marien-Kirche, a fine looking city centre church in Berlin (almost in the shadow of the Berliner Dom)
Having attended an organ receital earlier in the week, the organist encouraged me to attend the communion service on Sunday when the once-a-month liturgical choir (another peculiar feature of Germany) would be singing.
Because of a cycle race and diverted buses I arrived 10 minutes late and was refused entry, even though I made it perfectly clear to the guards on the door several times (they certainly could not be described as welcomers) that I had come to attend the service and not just to see the church. Other people were also locked out and were as surprised and upset as I was. I returned at the end of the service to speak to the priest who was apologetic, but I have since heard from others about similar experiences at this church. Very poor.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Similar things happen at every tourist shrine in Europe. Sunday morning at Westminster Abbey was underwhelming to say the least. I usually skip the fancy cathedrals and go to the local parish church on Sunday morning when I am abroad.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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cross eyed bear
Shipmate
# 13977
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Posted
As author of the report, I feel I ought to join in!
It is true that coffee cannot always be expected after the service when worshipping here in Germany. As a rule, the 'free churches' (the denominations not funded by church tax deducted at source) offer coffee and chat after the service, whereas ist is certainly rarer in the state protestant churches. I'm afraid I don't have that much experience of catholic churches in Germany.
I regularly attend a free church ( baptist, although very different to my UK baptist experience) and church coffee, weekly meetings and community are very much a part of that church if you want it. The methodist churches I've been to here have been the same.
When I go to the small chapel in my village ( also state protestant), there isn't coffee either, but as everyone in the village knows each other, it isn't so much of an issue.
For me, the benefits I gain from being able to get to know my fellow worshippers has been the main reason I don't worship higher up the candle here in Germany, which is why the lack of coffee and contact featured so prominently in the report.
Sitting in a group of strangers can be incredibly lonely, and the opportunity to get to know fellow worshippers, support and be supported by them as needed,not to mention welcoming seekers if they want this and have questions about this strange church business is, for me, also an element of worship and service.
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"One false step in my direction, you'd better believe in the resurrection" Stillgoe & Skellern's "Mrs Beamish"
Posts: 120 | From: Southern Germany | Registered: Jul 2008
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am living in the wrong country.
I'd love to go to a church where there isn't an expectation that you have to hang around afterwards.
'Round these parts, everyone is gone and I'm locking up by 15 minutes after the service. We simply don't do a coffee hour, at least not in any of the (non-Anglican or Episcopalian) churches I've ever been to, or heard of. TEC places do it, to one extent or another, and I don't know about RCs, but all the Protestants are off like a shot. We all joke about "beating the Baptists to [restaurant name]." In fact, congregations have been known to start services 15-30 minutes earlier than the others just so they can be seated at their favorite restaurants before the other churches let out.
EDIT: I'm not in Germany, and I know no one gives a rat's patootie what we do in rural Alabama. My point in relating it is simply that the coffee hour is hardly a global phenomenon.
[ 19. September 2012, 21:40: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Our shack was built in 1886 and like many churches of its era, particularly those that went on to be United Churches, the basement doubles as the Sunday School and Church Hall. The wooden dividers, like the cover on a wooden roller-desk, drop down from the ceiling to convert the space to a Sunday School. You open them up to have a reception on the full floor as one space.
Because of frost heave, buildings here have to have foundations at least four feet underground, in that era it was usually six, and churches didn't just excavate a trench for the footings, they dug out the full depth for second level.
We've had receptions and coffee hour since forever.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I don't know about non-Anglican churches in the UK (except that Catholic ones tend not to do it, perhaps mainly for the logistical reason that they often have many masses on a Sunday), but in the C of E 'coffee hour' (which is never called that, and never an hour, IME) developed out of the 'parish breakfast'. Which itself was pioneered early last century by those parishes earliest to adopt the 'parish communion'. I remember an anglo-catholic church in South London where this consisted of milky tea and white-bread-and-marmalade sandwiches.
Because the 'breakfast', and the earlier than 11.00 start to the service, were a response to the discipline of fasting communion, it first caught on among Tractarian-influenced churches (I believe St John's Newcastle upon Tyne was one of the earliest). Not so much with the more extreme anglo-catholics who clung to the non-communicating High Mass until the 1960s in some places.
The later relaxing of the rules (or customs, in an Anglican context) about fasting meant that breakfast was not so important and the service time could be later. Also the parish communion became more or less universal across the churchpersonship spectrum, at least in urban parishes, and the desire for 'fellowship' began to be stressed more. So weak instant coffee came to be substituted for milky tea and sandwiches.
'Where two or three are gathered together, there is Nescafé in the midst of them.' (Usually two or three grains thereof per cup). I have experienced this phenomenon in an Anglican church in the south of France. Forget about the liturgy and the 39 articles, that is a sign of true Anglicanism.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
My visits to Anglican churches in the south of France were better-timed than those of Angloid. S Andrew's, Pau, provided a fellow Australian pilgrim and myself with two glasses of champagne each. Why is this godly hospitality not emulated throughout the communion?
[ 19. September 2012, 22:18: Message edited by: Augustine the Aleut ]
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I attended "tea in the hall afterwards" * for strictly theological reasons. My fellow communicants probably have very little in common with me socially. Nonetheless they are the body of Christ as much as the Blessed Sacrament itself. Therefore it is my Christian duty to try to relate to them as human beings in their own right, socially awkward though it may be.
* Sorry to sound so middle class, but for me, instant coffee is not coffee, just a coffee flavoured hot drink.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Utrecht Catholic: The coffee hour is as far as I know,customary among most Dutch churches,Catholic or Protestant,particularly in large cities.
I agree that it's probably more a city thing. In rural churches, a coffee hour every 4–5 weeks seems to be the norm, at least in my experience. Maybe it's because in these communities, most people see eachother quite often anyway?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I speculate that coffee hour is only really necessary when there is a clear distinction between the parish and the community. In the past, there really wasn't one- the parish was merely the community at prayer. If one wanted fellowship in the parish one simply popped over to the neighbors' for cake and coffee. Parish dinners were (and in rural parts of Europe still are) indistinguishable from civic festivals.
Just wild speculation there.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Sounds as if you might be about right, zach.
(I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
(I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)
I think this use of "hour" is to mean "time," such as "cocktail hour," "story hour," or "rush hour."
Sometimes I do attend coffee hour for an hour, if I get cornered by a particular parishioner who loves to have someone to speak to at length. I'm not skilled at extricating myself from such conversations once they've gone past the point where I'm glad to be listening.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
(A couple of weeks ago I swore I'd never attend coffee hour again, but I think I'm over that now.)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I don't know about non-Anglican churches in the UK
I can't think of a UK Baptist church which doesn't do a "coffee hour" - it has everything to do with fellowship, but nothing at all to do with parish breakfasts.
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PRESBY DUDE
Apprentice
# 16035
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Posted
An earlier post about the lack of cordiality at London's famous Westminster Abbey rekindled some memories.
I'm a dedicated Anglophile, and I love spending a few weeks each year in London. Sinful being though I am, I'm an active church-goer, and I truly enjoy visiting various London services.
Now I realize (realise for the Brit readers) that the Abbey is a very large tourist attraction, as well as a house of worship. The Abbey is inundated with people. However, the welcome for worshippers there seems perfunctory at best. When my wife and I make it quite clear that we've approached the hallowed walls to worship and not to tour, we are admitted. But on more than twenty visits over the years, I haven't received a warm smile, an acknowledging nod, or a cordial greeting yet. (And no, I don't expect to be hugged or presented with chocolate chip cookies, American-style.) We've still attended the Abbey, simply because the music is so magnificent.
We're spending the first three weeks of October in London. (Lest you should think, "Aha! Rich Yanks!", let me emphasize that the three weeks will be in a decent but reasonably priced guest house---not at the Savoy, the Dochester, or even a Hilton.) We're skipping the Abbey and St. Paul's this year, we think. While in London, we'll be looking for some friendly parish churches with good traditional services and music, regardless of denomination. Suggestions, anyone? We like St. Columba's Church of Scotland, but we're not limited to worshipping with our fellow Presbies. We like to visit hither, thither, and yon. We'll be avoiding the "happy clappy" praise bands and worship teams, as we're old fogies who don't care to rock 'n' roll in church.
I do think, though, that the large cathedrals - despite the large numbers of tourists - could attempt to offer a tad friendlier welcome to those who enter God's house. Perhaps some volunteers as the "friendliness brigade"? Example: In the USA, the Cincinnati Airport has volunteers from the community stationed around the airport to greet and welcome people and offer to assist them. Airports are usually very impersonal places these days, and the volunteers "soften" the harsh atmosphere.
Many cathedral visitors rarely set foot in a Christian church, and their welcome as tourists, whether worshipping or not, may be a rare exposure to the faith. It's a shame if these visitors find God's house to be a cold, impersonal place, even if the music is superb.
By the way, I love Ship of Fools!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
If you like cathedrals otherwise, and you'll be in London, you can't do better than Southwark. The very building itself is friendly.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PRESBY DUDE:
We're spending the first three weeks of October in London. We're skipping the Abbey and St. Paul's this year, we think. While in London, we'll be looking for some friendly parish churches with good traditional services and music, regardless of denomination. Suggestions, anyone? We like St. Columba's Church of Scotland, but we're not limited to worshipping with our fellow Presbies. We like to visit hither, thither, and yon. We'll be avoiding the "happy clappy" praise bands and worship teams, as we're old fogies who don't care to rock 'n' roll in church.
I do think, though, that the large cathedrals - despite the large numbers of tourists - could attempt to offer a tad friendlier welcome to those who enter God's house. Perhaps some volunteers as the "friendliness brigade"? Example: In the USA, the Cincinnati Airport has volunteers from the community stationed around the airport to greet and welcome people and offer to assist them. Airports are usually very impersonal places these days, and the volunteers "soften" the harsh atmosphere.
Many cathedral visitors rarely set foot in a Christian church, and their welcome as tourists, whether worshipping or not, may be a rare exposure to the faith. It's a shame if these visitors find God's house to be a cold, impersonal place, even if the music is superb.
By the way, I love Ship of Fools!
I hope you have a wonderful time when you come to London, and am happy to make some recommendations on friendlier places to visit by PM or if you want to start a new thread?.
Last time I visited the Abbey on Sunday for Evensong I noticed a much friendlier approach both from the staff at the gate and those inside the Quire. Perhaps they have been influenced by the Olympics!
I agree with you that cathedrals should be friendlier and think about how their welcome or lack of it might be interpreted - I have now learnt to be prepared to brace myself and explain that I have come to worship and not to visit.
What shocked me in Berlin (and this wasn't even at a Cathedral) was that even after explaining this in English and in German, they still refused me and others admission to the Sunday service (even though there were plently of empty seats and lots of people exiting at regular intervals.) I found this unnaceptable.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
What shocked me in Berlin (and this wasn't even at a Cathedral) was that even after explaining this in English and in German, they still refused me and others admission to the Sunday service (even though there were plently of empty seats and lots of people exiting at regular intervals.) I found this unnaceptable.
Utterly bizarre. Closed communion is one thing, but restricting a church to private worship is another. I must have misunderstood you.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Marienkirche is, indeed, a tourist shrine and the church of the Bishop of Berlin.
[ 20. September 2012, 16:25: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Marienkirche is, indeed, a tourist shrine and the church of the Bishop of Berlin.
That is no excuse or justification. I have been to much more popular tourist shrines and never been excluded from worship.
Posts: 452 | From: North London | Registered: Jun 2010
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.
I disagree (and incidently so did the Pastor when I spoke to him about the incident). They should be astute enough to distinguish a genuine worshiper from someone who has come to look at the church - especially when they are specifically told as I did. And most people are clever enough to work out that worship takes place on a Sunday!
[ 20. September 2012, 18:05: Message edited by: Liturgylover ]
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
Many years ago, before my first visit to the UK, I was given this advice by an experienced friend:
If you want to worship at a tourist-popular church (Abbey, StPauls, StGeorgesWindsor, etc) wear your 'Sunday best', carry your prayer book, and turn up on time. If questioned by usher/virger/bouncer/guard, just say 'We're here for the service.' Never had any problems, though at Chapel Royal Hampton Court we were cautioned 'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'
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You can't retire from a calling.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it's not an excuse, but the fact that the vast majority of visitors to Marienkirche are not there to worship, and that this is extremely disruptive to its life of worship, makes the behavior of the guards a little more understandable.
I disagree (and incidently so did the Pastor when I spoke to him about the incident). They should be astute enough to distinguish a genuine worshiper from someone who has come to look at the church - especially when they are specifically told as I did. And most people are clever enough to work out that worship takes place on a Sunday!
Would that it were so! While agreeing with you on how cathedral staff acted, many tourists come with little to no religious knowledge. As well, I have spoken with Japanese travellers on the road to Santiago who had no (repeat!) no understanding or knowedge of Xty, aside from the place of Santa Claus. I was once asked why there were no rabbits in churches, given their importance for Easter. While ignorance of Sunday as a day of worship did not come up in our discussions, it would not have surprised me one bit.
I have seen travellers enter Spanish and French churches when services were on and ushers prevent photographers, who were talking quite loudly, from circulating around the chancel when the celebrant was at the altar. Tour guides cheerfully walk their charges through the middle of a worshipping conversation, using their laser pointers to illustrate their monologues, all the while being pursued by ushers.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
venbede: (I'm still aghast at this coffee hour business. Do you mean a whole sixty minutes?)
In Holland, we usually call it 'Coffee after Church'. It alliterates a lot better in Dutch ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I am mystified at the confusion around the simple phrase "coffee hour." Is using "hour" to refer to the vague amount of time associated with some event an American thing? "Rush hour" is the time when traffic is heavy, "happy hour" is the period after work reserved for knocking back a few drinks, etc.
I mean, "coffee quarter-hour" would sound silly, wouldn't it?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Rush hour is usually longer than an hour; 'happy hour' can vary according to the establishment. Both terms are common this side of the pond; 'coffee hour' isn't. Just one of those things I suppose. Like spelling colour with or without a u. Nothing to get worked up about, or try to justify logically, but it can be an irrational trigger for cross-pond prejudice.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've not been conscious of this before, but I think there may be a difference of usage. I think over here if you call something 'XXX hour' you expect it to last either exactly an hour, or slightly more but less than two, never less. In a 'happy hour', people won't mind if the reduction lasts for more than an hour, but will mind a great deal if the beer go back to its normal price after 45 minutes. Whereas I suspect Zach from what you are saying that in the US 'hour' can mean just 'a period of time' rather than specifically '60 minutes worth of time'.
It's a bit like using 'ship' as a verb. In the US it seems to mean something general, more like 'consign', whereas here it still conveys the notion that the goods are going to come by boat.
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
Thinking back to my own childhood in the early/mid-60's...my earliest church, a very charming looking, fieldstone rural LCMS church near my home, didn't offer coffee after the service, at least not as far as I can remember -- we shook the pastor's hand at the front door and left immediately worship. I honestly don't recall there being a church basement...we had a separate fieldstone education building next door, which would have been the only space with room to accomodate a post-church nosh, but I just don't recall ever being part of such a thing.
When I was about 9 that church merged with a congregation in our town, and that church always had coffee hour after worship. (Coffee and boughten cookies; nothing fancy.) I think, as others have noted, that that custom came about in congregations where it was no longer assumed that everyone knew everyone else.
BTW, one of my German professors, who liked to wander over to the Lutheran church next to the MSU campus on weekday afternoons to play the organ, recalled attending worship there for the first and only time one Sunday -- he said he hated all the handshaking and peace-passing and visitor-fawning-over. "They acted like they wanted to marry me!"
[ 21. September 2012, 13:30: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Rush hour is usually longer than an hour.
And the one thing you can't do in it is rush - as far as driving is concerned, it's the slowest time of the whole day!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
I think it usually only becomes "a vague period of time" when used in conjunctions. Back in the day the local television station might air a 90 minute movie for "Mystery Hour" on Saturday nights. But "we studied for an hour" would actually mean "we studied for about 60 minutes."
Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?
[ 21. September 2012, 14:03: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?
Per my dictionary, one of the meanings of "hour" is "a short or limited period of time." Another meaning is "a particular or appointed time" (as in "the hour of his death"). I think it's usually clear from context whether one of these definitions is meant or whether 60 minutes is meant.
And I'd agree that where I live, coffee hours either occur between services so that worshippers from both services can visit or, where they occur after the service, are usually limited to congregations where people don't necessarily see each other elsewhere.
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Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Maybe it refers more to a specific point in the day instead of a period of time?
Yes, like "the dinner hour," really probably only 30 minutes or less...the "hour" is a general time of the day during which certain things generally happen and don't happen ("I hate getting phone calls during the dinner hour" doesn't mean 5:30-6:30 p.m. necessarily but does mean whatever period of time I generally spend in preparing and ingesting dinner).
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Coffee hour has always been completely optional at any church I have gone to. It's clearly after the service, not part of it.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
It is not quite clear to me why some people make such a fuss about the "Coffee hour",since it is no part of the service,you can alway leave.
However it is a good opportunity to speak with the celebrant/presider/minister and fellow worshippers.
I am glad that the European churches have adopted this custom from their US bretheren and sisters.
In addition to this, some London Churches offer even a nice lunch e.g.Margaret Street and Holborn.
A good tradition.
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Robert Kennedy
Posts: 220 | From: Dordrecht | Registered: Nov 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I have it on good authority that coffee hour is not a good time to bring up business with the priest if you want him or her to remember any of it come Monday morning.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
It is not quite clear to me why some people make such a fuss about the "Coffee hour",since it is no part of the service,you can alway leave.
If only. Ours is a touchy-feely sort of church and it seems like a moral obligation to stay.
I often slink off to the sacristy to do some photocopying - people come to find me if they want a serious conversation.
Then I can get out by the side door.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'You must stay for the entire service, you know.' To which I replied 'Well, of course.'
I'd ask whether the 'entire service' including the 'coffee hour' or whether this was optional.
Otherwise, I'd find a walk in the park more conducive (unless they were serving sherry - then I'd stay.)
Coffee Hour at Hampton Court Palace? The mind reels! On the other hand at ASMS the printed order of service included this notice: 'The licenced establishment in the undercroft opens xx minutes after the end of the high mass.' (or words to that effect) ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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