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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Swords in Church
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
The thread on medals on tippets made me think of this.
Is it appropriate for a man in the forces who is entitled to wear a sword as part of his uniform to wear it in church, if he wears his uniform to the service?
This came up recently at a celebratory service where one of the sidesman was an officer, and wore his dress uniform, and wanted to wear the sword but was told not to.
I was recently at a wedding at which the father of the bride was a Navy officer and he made a point of explaining he had left the sword off for the service (the bride later used it to cut the cake at the reception).
For some reason I was under the impression that Navy officers were permitted to wear their swords in church as a courtesy, but I can find no substantiation of this.
So, are there rules (or conventions) for this and would it make a difference if one were participating in the service rather than just attending?
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The number of times a member of the Canadian Forces wears a sword in their career may typically be counted on one hand.
Swords would be a problem when sitting in the pews, depending on how they are slung. Slings would be easier than a frog and Sam Browne belt.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I believe that in the British Army there may be some regiments which do or did- the old 53rd Foot (now i think part of the Rifles) springs to mind for some reason, but whether that has carried on into the successor regiment or not I don't know. Somewhere buried deep in the MOD website there are IIRC dress regulations for the RAF and probably RN and RM which i think cover this point too.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
"Swords" in Rifle regiments are sword-bayonets, bayonets which are longer than average. The original Baker Rifle of the Napoleonic Wars was shorter than a musket and so had a longer bayonet issued to make up the difference.
I'm a Sharpe fan.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I was at a wedding recently where a guest wore military uniform including a sword. I think that bringing weapons into church is always inappropriate and had it been a church for which I had responsibility I would have asked the guest to leave the sword outside.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
One would love to see Isaiah 2:4 for the reading.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
I played for a wedding, with the groom in his Civil War re-Enactment uniform, complete with sword. The bride was in an Old South Belle of the ball flouncy dress. He did a lot of bowing and kissing her hand. It was a little too stage-crafty for me.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
I once did some supply preaching at a country church. Just as the service was starting, a man in kilt and armour, including a helmet with visor covering most of his face, wandered into the church and sat at the back. He joined fully in all the hymns and worship. At the door, he wished me good morning as I shook his hand, then picked up his broadsword from the porch and left without explanation.
When I asked the locals about him, they confirmed that he was a regular, and that he always dressed like that. "But we did have to ask him to leave his sword at the door," they informed me cheerfully.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There are some old churches in the UK which have a 'sword stand' eg St. Stephen's City, Bristol. It is on the south side of the chancel.
That will be for the Lord Mayor's ceremonial sword, carried if front of him by his Swordbearer, if Bristol and the City of London follow the same traditions.
The Queen was presented with a ceremonial sword in the course of her coronation. This is quite different from members of the congregation wearing swords.
What did the old South re-enactment do about slaves?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
I don't see a problem either way. It is a courtesy that should be shown by an officer to ask if there is any objection to wearing a sword. If so, then the sword can be removed and replaced on leaving the church. Similarly, the military guests can don theirs at the end ready for the Guard of Honour at the door.
A sword is never worn in the mess (or at the reception). In the Army, medals are also removed on entering the mess. This does not apply to miniatures word with mess kit in the evening (when swords are never worn).
If a sword is permitted, great care has to be taken when kneeling as they are liable to get in the way.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I don't think it's appropriate to wear a sword in church. It's also quite clear that there's a long tradition of removing them, for very good practical and symbolic reasons.
This isn't an issue round here, but for the same reasons, I don't think it's appropriate to wear a handgun in church. I'd be very suspicious of the validity of someone's faith if they can't see why.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Anyone remember if Prince William, or any other royal groom, wore his sword with his military uniform at his wedding?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Anyone remember if Prince William, or any other royal groom, wore his sword with his military uniform at his wedding?
I just did a Google image search -- lots of pictures of the Prince from every angle possible, and I didn't see one.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Prince William did not wear one, and there are good reasons for not doing so - both out of respect for a house of Worship, and for polite reasons. It is a matter of choice for the individuals and local church authorities.
As for the comment 'I would question the validity...' that is just a little silly.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In many areas these days, if you left your sword in the porch it will have been nicked by the end of the service. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Is it appropriate for a man in the forces who is entitled to wear a sword as part of his uniform to wear it in church, if he wears his uniform to the service?
I feel obliged to point out that this dilemma could also apply to a female officer.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
"Swords" in Rifle regiments are sword-bayonets, bayonets which are longer than average. The original Baker Rifle of the Napoleonic Wars was shorter than a musket and so had a longer bayonet issued to make up the difference.
I'm a Sharpe fan.
Ah yes, you're right. Now I think of it, it wasn't teh 53rd, who became Light Infantry and then Rifles. 29th Foot- later the Worcestershire Regiment is the one I think I mean- now part of the Mercians.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
The post is somewhat timely for me because my parish is, in a few hours, going to celebrate a requiem Eucharist for all the first responders (police, fire, and EMT) in our community who have died in the line of duty. I think that this is a wonderful and appropriate gesture. However, the processional will be led by a police honor guard armed with ceremonial swords and (deactivated) rifles (the honor guard duty alternates between police and firefighters from year to year). The color guard will then present the flags for the Pledge of Allegiance from just outside of the chancel. While I think that for a civic service of this nature having a color guard is wonderful and appropriate, I would like to have the color guard ceremony take place in the narthex, and require the weapons to remain outside of the consecrated ground. However, there are two reasons, one practical and one pastoral, that prevent this from happening. First, our nave has a sloped floor, so people in the front pews cannot see the narthex. Second, the color guard has to remain near the colors and are not allowed to put down their weapons, but they want to take Communion. Thus, we have swords and guns in the nave. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over it, and I think the service is a wonderful idea in general.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Prince William did not wear one, and there are good reasons for not doing so - both out of respect for a house of Worship, and for polite reasons. It is a matter of choice for the individuals and local church authorities.
As for the comment 'I would question the validity...' that is just a little silly.
When in Full Dress, as William was, there are various options available with respect to the details. For instance, the Irish Guards wear bearskins, but William wore the undress peaked cap. My cousin served in the band of the Governor General's Food Guards for two summers here in Canada, and the uniform is the same. The GGFG wear bearskins on parade and when mounting guard on Parliament Hill, but wear peaked caps when playing band gigs in the ballroom at Rideau Hall, the Governor General's residence.
It is entirely appropriate the leave off certain items of dress if they are clearly impractical or uncalled for by the rules of polite company.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In many areas these days, if you left your sword in the porch it will have been nicked by the end of the service.
I note from the RC Royal Navy chaplaincy page that it is suggested that swords be left in the charge of one of the party. I suspect that the laws of most places will require that this be done for firearms, loaded or not.
One of my mother's golfing buddies in Florida kept her (loaded) sidearm in her purse using that state's conceal and carry procedures, but I do not know if any of the clergy would dare challenge or regulate this. However, that is a different pastoral situation.
Perhaps a CoS or Presbyterian shipmate could clarify for us if a piper's skean dhu is removed during divine service.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
One of my mother's golfing buddies in Florida kept her (loaded) sidearm in her purse using that state's conceal and carry procedures, but I do not know if any of the clergy would dare challenge or regulate this.
As far as I know, weapons are never permitted in an Orthodox Church, and if the clergy at an Orthodox Church were told that someone was carrying a weapon, they'd have to challenge it.
The subject has, in fact, come up at our parish.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
My authority is Nancy Mitford's book on the Sun King, where she refers to James II's wearing a sword to Mass, that being a privilege attaching to him as king, a Garter Knight, or some such. She notes how the sword clanked as he entered and left. It would have been very difficult to kneel, genuflect and so forth*.
At school, the colours are marched into chapel for the service preceding the passing-out parade. The swords for the flag party are left on a table in the porch, under guard.
*The limerick comes to mind (hope this is OK in Ecclesiantics):
There was a young fellow called Bates
Who danced the fandango on skates,
Til a fall n his cutlass
Rendered him nut less,
And practically useless on dates.
[ 24. September 2012, 03:52: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
A big pond difference is guns. The general feeling here is that guns are not acceptable in public and mum's golfing buddy is being criminal. (She may actually be criminal in UK: I've not checked the exact UK legal situation.)
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
She would be very unlikely to meet any of the criteria to be permitted to own one, yet alone to remove it from its locked container and wander around with it.
This is very much what I was getting at when I said what I was criticised for saying by Sebby above.
I can see that an unarmed clergyperson might be a bit wary of taking issue with an armed lady golfer, but if she can't see why this calls into question whether she has grasped certain basic principles of Christianity, then she ought to be worried.
If the security situation in Florida is really that bad, and she's also worried about having her gun stolen, the least she could do would be to empty it before going into church.
I agree with Josephine and Orthodoxy on this.
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Perhaps a CoS or Presbyterian shipmate could clarify for us if a piper's skean dhu is removed during divine service.
I have no idea! Pipers don't tend to come into the church anyway, mostly playing outside. But wedding parties, though - I have honestly never thought about it. I suspect skean dhus were properly banned back in the old days, when they were actually used as weapons, but in their dress role now they have been overlooked.
I seem to recall that legally, there was some court case about men in Highland Dress having the right to wear the skean dhu in public without being charged for carrying an offensive weapon. Sikhs can carry a kirpan for the same legal reasons, I think.
One of my bad ancestors killed the rightful King of Scotland in a church. Probably with a wee dagger. Oh well.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
Posts: 2377 | From: Scotland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
A member of the church choir I sang with in the '60s was also a member of the police Diplomatic Protection squad. I was startled to see him putting a well-filled shoulder holster on after morning service. He explained he was going straight to work; I believe the gun and holster had been in the church safe during the service. And I saw it on only this one occasion; if it happened often he must've been very discrete. He was, I suppose, sensitive to the issue because it would've been invisible under his cassock.
My late FiL was an incumbent and a group scout master (as it was called in those days). He regularly wore a Swiss Army style knife hanging from his belt when in uniform. Nobody ever said anything, except a bold churchwarden who said he didn't like weapons in church: FiL said "that's all right then, [first name]; it's a tool."
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
This was something that came to mind at a local civic service I attended recently at the parish church. The deputy Lord Lieutenant, a big, burly, jolly looking man, wore a black uniform with spurs on his very shiny boots- and a sword!
He was presenting (I presume as the Queen's representative) various local worthies with little medals to celebrate their lives of service for the community. There was a retired headmaster, a non-conformist minister, that sort of thing. The liturgy had a British Shintoism feel: the hymns were All things Bright and Beautiful and I Vow to Thee, my Country, the town mayor wore his chain of office while the priest wore black scarf and surplice. And, movingly, there was a minute's silence for two members of the local regiment who had died recently in Afghanistan.
But I did raise an eyebrow at the sword being worn in the chancel of the church. I thought it might have been an effective theological statement to have laid it aside at the church porch (in addition to giving the opportunity for a nice bit of business at the start of the procession!). There could definitely have been a touch more counter-culturality: as it was, it rather felt like the C of E in its role as obedient chaplaincy to the Establishment.
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I googled FiL and got, first, Federation of International Lacrosse, and second, Forum for Interlending and Information Delivery.
But maybe it's Cornish.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I googled FiL and got, first, Federation of International Lacrosse, and second, Forum for Interlending and Information Delivery.
But maybe it's Cornish.
Father-in-Law was my guess.
I can't say we encounter many armed churchgoers in New England—and especially not at my college chaplaincy, average attendance ten! But I especially agree with Laurence regarding counter-culturality. There's certainly no need to be proclaiming a kingdom other than God's in the church.
But I suppose that after all I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor guys with swords in the pew will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
For information:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
A big pond difference is guns. The general feeling here is that guns are not acceptable in public and mum's golfing buddy is being criminal. (She may actually be criminal in UK: I've not checked the exact UK legal situation.)
All handguns are illegal in the UK (other than used by the police or military), and cannot be legally owned or used by any civilian for any purpose whatsoever. IIRC the UK Olympic shooting team practice in France because of this.
Also, I suspect that Morlader's use of FiL is referring to Father-in-Law
Angus
ETA x-post with Bostonman
[ 24. September 2012, 12:29: Message edited by: A.Pilgrim ]
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
I once did some supply preaching at a country church. Just as the service was starting, a man in kilt and armour, including a helmet with visor covering most of his face, wandered into the church and sat at the back. He joined fully in all the hymns and worship. At the door, he wished me good morning as I shook his hand, then picked up his broadsword from the porch and left without explanation.
When I asked the locals about him, they confirmed that he was a regular, and that he always dressed like that. "But we did have to ask him to leave his sword at the door," they informed me cheerfully.
Suspect I have worshipped at that very church and seen that individual. It must have been over a decade ago now. So yes a regular, irc there is some colourful past but I can't quite recall what. It is near a major walking route which is why I happened to be there.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Morlader
Shipmate
# 16040
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Posted
Tangent/
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
...
But maybe it's Cornish.
Nyns yw Kernewek! [It is not Cornish!] I would've done a translation.
I first saw FiL for Father in Law on these boards soon after I registered.
[ But I suspect you're just winding me up, vb.] /tangent
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.. to utmost west.
Posts: 858 | From: Not England | Registered: Nov 2010
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Honest, I hadn't come across FiL before. I was trying to be playful.
One person's playfulness, is another's wind-up, I fear.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
A big pond difference is guns. The general feeling here is that guns are not acceptable in public and mum's golfing buddy is being criminal. (She may actually be criminal in UK: I've not checked the exact UK legal situation.)
Indeed, in many countries. In Canada, unless she be one of the rare people allowed a handgun permit (IIRC there are about 30 in Ontario, with a population of 13 million), it would be a serious offence-- indeed, aside from my military or constabulary acquaintances, I know of nobody who has ever held or used one, even in practice (an ex of mine, in her spare time a reserve captain of dragoons, tells me that they are useless, a knife being more practical if one's C7 did not get them first). However, the State of Florida has few restrictions on handguns, other than one may not carry them openly (Jack Hagler Self-Defence Act) although one needs a concealed-carry permit, available from the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Affairs (I hesitate to mention this, as perhaps some of Mr Harper's staff may be reading and would grow excited in their desire to bring US standards into the True North).
After some innocent enquiry, I discovered that almost 1 of 4 of my mother's golf club and Episcopalian buddies heft sidearms with them, usually in their car's glove compartment, or in an optional lockbox by the driver's side. I do not know how many of them bring their weapons into church but I would think that the abovementioned detective's approach of placing the weapon in a locked safe would be preferable (perhaps a parish would have lockboxes inserted in empty niches in the columbarium as a revenue source). I think that the Orthodox approach is worthy of emulation in this, as in some other matters.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
We've had pipers in a few times, most recently for a very dear friend's funeral. They usually wear garters but not skean dhu's. They probably don't want to be hassled by the police. I don't know what the Criminal Code says about it, but most probably think it's not worth a court case.
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Is it that golf courses particularly dangerous places? Is the main danger from ones fellow players, criminals or alligators? Or is it that trigger happy Episcopalians are a well known risk that churchgoing golfers need to protect themselves against?
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Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
We've had pipers in a few times, most recently for a very dear friend's funeral. They usually wear garters but not skean dhu's. They probably don't want to be hassled by the police. I don't know what the Criminal Code says about it, but most probably think it's not worth a court case.
Where's PD when you need him? His missus is, I believe, big in bagpiping.
Here is a picture of Military Knights of Windsor on their way to the annual Garter service. I don't know what they do with their swords when they get to the Chapel.
This is what RAF dress regulations say: quote:
A member of a
church congregation, attending the service only and not taking part in any parade or ceremony before, during, or after the service, should not
wear a sword unless specifically requested to do so
although swords are to be worn at the grander kind of funerals, by pallbearers, and may, it seems, be worn at weddings.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Some golf courses certainly seem to be dangerous. I recall an episode of LOST when Sayed, being Ben's hit-man at the time, shot his fellow golfer at point blank range. There again, being on Ben's list, the golfer must have been a Bad Person.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Prince William did not wear one, and there are good reasons for not doing so - both out of respect for a house of Worship, and for polite reasons. It is a matter of choice for the individuals and local church authorities.
Looking back over photos, though, I find that Prince Charles did wear one in St. Paul's at his wedding to Lady Diana Spencer.
Also, a photo I have of the wedding of Prince Rainier to Grace Kelly, shows the prince wearing a sword, though it is unclear if the pic was taken in the church.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
After some innocent enquiry, I discovered that almost 1 of 4 of my mother's golf club and Episcopalian buddies heft sidearms with them, usually in their car's glove compartment, or in an optional lockbox by the driver's side. I do not know how many of them bring their weapons into church but I would think that the abovementioned detective's approach of placing the weapon in a locked safe would be preferable (perhaps a parish would have lockboxes inserted in empty niches in the columbarium as a revenue source). I think that the Orthodox approach is worthy of emulation in this, as in some other matters.
I know several RCMP who are plainclothes. They may not leave the handguns anywhere, and have what you might consider a "man bag" which holds it. I have never seen a person in uniform with a weapon at a Canadian Anglican church. I expect if a police officer attended in uniform, no-one would think anything of it as the gun is part of the uniform. Anyone else carrying a gun to church would undoubtedly result in a 911 call.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
The post is somewhat timely for me because my parish is, in a few hours, going to celebrate a requiem Eucharist for all the first responders (police, fire, and EMT) in our community who have died in the line of duty. I think that this is a wonderful and appropriate gesture. However, the processional will be led by a police honor guard armed with ceremonial swords and (deactivated) rifles (the honor guard duty alternates between police and firefighters from year to year). The color guard will then present the flags for the Pledge of Allegiance from just outside of the chancel. While I think that for a civic service of this nature having a color guard is wonderful and appropriate, I would like to have the color guard ceremony take place in the narthex, and require the weapons to remain outside of the consecrated ground. However, there are two reasons, one practical and one pastoral, that prevent this from happening. First, our nave has a sloped floor, so people in the front pews cannot see the narthex. Second, the color guard has to remain near the colors and are not allowed to put down their weapons, but they want to take Communion. Thus, we have swords and guns in the nave. I'm not going to get too bent out of shape over it, and I think the service is a wonderful idea in general.
I intend no offense toward you, Try, and no doubt mine is a perverse opinion, but I find the presence of the American Battle Pennant, er...American Flag, within the church to be a vastly greater danger than the presence of actual weapons.
The Symbol being more powerful than the sword—or firearm.
Speaking of Symbols, it would be a more potent one for the entire assembly to gather outside the church and perform whatever civil and martial religion need tending to.
Then the entire company could process into the sacred ground of the Church behind the processional cross, the ensign of our salvation!, with all the symbols of Mars (flags, swords, firearms) left outside the church in a locked and guarded shed, or even in the narthex if one must.
But, Modern American Christians must deposit their Weighty Behinds comfortably in their churchy-theatre seats ("sloped floor"!), so a gathering outside and a processing in are off the menu in most places.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Prince William did not wear one, and there are good reasons for not doing so - both out of respect for a house of Worship, and for polite reasons.
I think there is a strong tendency on this thread (OK, Enoch and I) that wishes other military gents and ladies entitled to wear ceremonial swords would follow the tact and good taste of our church's future Supreme Governor.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
I can only recall one instance in which we had someone with a weapon at services. It was a local police detective who had just finished his shift and was attending to partake of the L.S.. I didn't realize it until after services.
In my corner of Restorationism there are no flags, no processions and only the briefest of verbal acknowledgements of the civic calendar.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I intend no offense toward you, Try, and no doubt mine is a perverse opinion, but I find the presence of the American Battle Pennant, er...American Flag, within the church to be a vastly greater danger than the presence of actual weapons.
The Symbol being more powerful than the sword—or firearm.
Speaking of Symbols, it would be a more potent one for the entire assembly to gather outside the church and perform whatever civil and martial religion need tending to.
Then the entire company could process into the sacred ground of the Church behind the processional cross, the ensign of our salvation!, with all the symbols of Mars (flags, swords, firearms) left outside the church in a locked and guarded shed, or even in the narthex if one must.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
[ 24. September 2012, 21:29: Message edited by: Josephine ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
I once was at a mass where there was some special thing involving the Knights of Columbus. It was quite a long while ago and I don't remember all the details, but not only did they wear swords but at one point when they were in the central aisle of the church, in unison they whipped them out and raised them in some sort of salute. (put your preferred emoticon here).
PS, (tangent alert) Augustine the Aleut, how i envy you living in a place where there are 30 people legally permitted to have a handgun out of 13 million people. Civilization must be a wonderful thing.
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
I once was at a mass where there was some special thing involving the Knights of Columbus. It was quite a long while ago and I don't remember all the details, but not only did they wear swords but at one point when they were in the central aisle of the church, in unison they whipped them out and raised them in some sort of salute. (put your preferred emoticon here).
PS, (tangent alert) Augustine the Aleut, how i envy you living in a place where there are 30 people legally permitted to have a handgun out of 13 million people. Civilization must be a wonderful thing.
Zouaves, originally recruited in francophone Canada to assist in the defence of the Holy See during the unification of Italy, featured in RC parish life until very recently and the viewer of this interesting film will find the presence of rifles during services to be of interest.
@malik3000. I did not point out that well over 30 individuals have handguns. The thirty (a figure I have once seen and I hope I did not mistake) are simply the ones who carry them legally. I am reliably informed that hot irons will set you back between $700 and $1000 and clergy should not assume that they will obtain a discount.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The RCMP has statistics and numbers about restricted weapons licences. Link here. There are more than 30, the neighbourhood of 740,000. It doesn't look like handguns are separated from other restricted guns. I'm not really up on what other weaponry is included.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
My apologies to one and all. Sixty-four hundred posts into the project and I still cannot restrain myself.
After a tightly written four-paragraph denunciation of weapons in church, I had to go off-topic and further than necessary to hit below the belt, denouncing big bottoms, too.
It was the sloped floor I couldn't resist, but I'm still guilty, guilty, guilty. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 25. September 2012, 00:23: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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