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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Intrusive moneybags
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I don't know if this will develop into a long discussion. I was in Spain last week, and attended a fairly standard Vatican 2 mass which was fine in every respect except that, at the offertory, two or three people started to patrol the church with collecting bags (or plates, I can't remember which, but it's irrelevant). So far, so good: what one would expect. But there was no hymn or other cover for this, and they continued to make their way around the church proffering their receptacles under everyone's nose, even when the priest had begun the eucharistic prayer. I rather think they were still at it by the words of institution.
This is something I have noticed on many occasions at mass in continental europe. Even at one very 'reformed', radical Catholic church in the Netherlands, which in many respects resembled a protestant service except for communion (in one kind, from the tabernacle!) and this irritating business of the collection. I haven't noticed it in the UK.
Traditional C of E practice (described by Betjeman as 'the elevation of the plate') tends to lay a lot of emphasis on the collection of money and can even make it seem the highlight of the service. But this seems different: it's a utilitarian collection of money done in the most intrusive and irreverent way possible, IMHO. If there is a desire to link it with the action of the offertory, why not begin the process, say, during the prayers of the people? Or at least wait until after the most solemn part of the liturgy is over before resuming.
Any comments?
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
That is intrusive. I've always known it 'covered up' by a hymn or similar, and personally I always feel antsy if the music runs out before the collection gets to the altar.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The churches in northern Spain where I've been all used moneybags. I have a vague recollection that this was done during a hymn, or shortly afterward. In a few places, the cash was brought up with the bread and wine at the offertory, as we see in many Anglican churches while, in a few other, it made its way up to parish officers.
I do not remember it being particularly annoying. In some of the Camino churches, the bag was not presented to obvious pilgrims.
Generally, they got few banknotes, and it appeared to be mainly one- or two-euro coins. A Spanish friend of mine told me that her practice was the equivalent of a cup of coffee but it could run up to 2E if she were in a good mood. I was told that it was generally agreed that, if the sermon was political, nothing should be given and she believed that certain clerics were exempted from Sunday duty as the effect on parish finances would be too damaging. She said that, for the same reason, Castilian priests rarely presided or preached in the Basque country but I suspect that the low level of language knowledge might have its place here.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
For some reason I thought this thread would be about how to handle the church's high-rolling benefactors who are then in turn demanding.
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
Wow, I've never seen such intrusive collecting at any church. But then I've never been to mainland Europe.
This brings to mind the winsome manner in which the Chapel of New College Oxford does it collections. On Sunday nights, boys from the New College School handle the collection during the closing hymn. On some other nights, two cheerful choristers wait at the door to take offerings as people depart.
One has to be very hard-hearted or very poor not to give there. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Is this an effect of the idea that the collection is to pay for the priest's Mass Stipend, so the congregation needs to be thoroughly "frisked" by the Dismissal?
Lots of churches run on a cash basis, but this is a bit extreme.
I remember Triple Tiara said he used to say an early Mass at a Convent every so often; after which he received a nice breakfast and his stipend for the Mass. He would usually turn the stipend cheque around and donate it back to the nuns, and then enjoy his breakfast.
One or two Euro coins? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Dear me, I've been a Steward, that doesn't even begin to cover it. It never did either. In Quebec, Canada the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for most social services and education before 1968. It got education taxes from the province and lots of breaks for running hospitals. It takes a lot to keep all these institutions going.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The Introduction to the Order of Mass says that the priests and minsters remain seated and wait during the collection (105). I've never seen this (and the Introduction is instructive not legislative). The collection is not for the priest's stipend, but "for the relief of the needs of the Church and of the poor." (GIRM 140).
Continuing the collection during the Eucharistic Prayer seems disruptive to me. I have seen it often in the basilica here, at the televised Mass which has to fit into an hour.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Is this an effect of the idea that the collection is to pay for the priest's Mass Stipend, so the congregation needs to be thoroughly "frisked" by the Dismissal?
Lots of churches run on a cash basis, but this is a bit extreme.
I remember Triple Tiara said he used to say an early Mass at a Convent every so often; after which he received a nice breakfast and his stipend for the Mass. He would usually turn the stipend cheque around and donate it back to the nuns, and then enjoy his breakfast.
One or two Euro coins?
Dear me, I've been a Steward, that doesn't even begin to cover it. It never did either. In Quebec, Canada the Roman Catholic Church was responsible for most social services and education before 1968. It got education taxes from the province and lots of breaks for running hospitals. It takes a lot to keep all these institutions going.
In fairness, it needs to be noted that the state began cutting off the Spanish church's funding some years ago, completely by 1990 (there's a really complicated history about this, going back to the compounding of rents after the confiscation of religious houses in 1821 etc etc), and congregations are still developing an awareness that they're supposed to be paying. Historic churches, such as Burgos cathedral (the prototype, it is said, for the castle at Disneyland), are now charging 5euro for entry (services are free, and outside service times they keep a free-entry chapel open for devotions).
I recall seeing a table of stole fees outside churches in Potes and Las Salas, outlining what gets charged for what. In Potes, the sermon touched on the social services provided by the parish and that the government no longer provided funds for them, and that the government had ceased paying clergy salaries many years ago. As the state's social services are being cut under the current economic crisis there, I would imagine that there will be even greatly reliance on what the church provides.
Still, I've been in a few dozen Spanish churches over the years, and never saw the approach Angloid reports.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
I once saw this at the noon mass at a diocesan RC parish in the central business district of a small midwestern city...collecting during the consecration for sure, in that case. I know that it can be tough to balance paying the bills and not slowing things down overmuch, but at least get it done by the words of institution, and ideally before the orate fratres or equivalent!
Posts: 49 | From: Chicago | Registered: Oct 2011
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Angloid's experience is almost identical to mine every time I've ever been to the evening, said Mass at the Oxford Oratory (congregation 250+, length about an hour but no hymns to cover anything).
Thurible
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
We just stopped taking the collection here.
If someone came round to my house, I would offer them a seat and a cup of tea - I wouldn't get them to pass a plate to collect their money.
Why should it be any different with guests at church?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
How are you doing it then? Have you got all your regulars to sign up to standing orders or is there a bowl at the back (or both)?
Thurible
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
both. Plate at back brought up during service, when we thank God for gifts (as normal). Most give by standing order though.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
One or two Euro coins?
Without trying to pry, this seems to be the level of giving that I've noticed in Italy and (recently) in Spain. Not sure about France: maybe as secularisation has a longer history there churchpeople are more realistic givers (although the state owns most of the historic church buildings).
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Bear in mind that cultures are rather different there. Some of those only giving E2 may be doing so at the daily Mass, not just Sunday, so you might have to multiply by seven. Others will be paying for Mass Intentions. There is also a voluntary tax which supports the church in many countries.Perhaps most importantly, those who want to make major bequests to the Church will almost certainly do so by another route, above all via their wills.
I would suggest that in this context the donations given via the moneybag are more symbolic of the offering made during the Mass than a primary source of income.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Good point, dj_o. I should have realised that.
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135
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Posted
I think that we need to work out what the collection during a service is for. Is it the primary way the church funds itself? In which case, proudly putting One English Pound in the plate with an expression of great beneficence won't cut it, except for the very poorest widows. Certainly not if you drove to church in a new Range Rover.
But how many people who are active in the life of their church aren't enrolled in some sort of direct debit, or at least a weekly envelope scheme? It can't be many, now. Certainly if I visit a church and put money in the plate, it's usually next door to a pile of envelopes or little cards stating that the person gives electronically.
So perhaps it might be best to emphasise the ritual, token aspect of any public collection in the middle of the service? That way we avoid the embarrassing scrabble during the Offertory hymn. There's no reason for the plate to actually contain everyone's contribution, any more than we need to have a three-course Sunday lunch at the altar.
(It would also remove the risk of the sin of pride amongst those of the congregation who know how much it actually costs to run a church and give accordingly!)
[ 09. October 2012, 15:12: Message edited by: Laurence ]
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Bear in mind that cultures are rather different there. Some of those only giving E2 may be doing so at the daily Mass, not just Sunday, so you might have to multiply by seven. Others will be paying for Mass Intentions. There is also a voluntary tax which supports the church in many countries.Perhaps most importantly, those who want to make major bequests to the Church will almost certainly do so by another route, above all via their wills.
I would suggest that in this context the donations given via the moneybag are more symbolic of the offering made during the Mass than a primary source of income.
I've emailed two Spanish friends to ask how people provide support to their parish. Only one has written back (from Aragon, where the RCC took nasty hits during the civil war, with some dioceses losing a majority of their priests) in a lengthy reply to say that most people she knows just put a few euro in the plate, but will double or triple the stole fee for a Mass stipend, or will underwrite a seminarian's expenses for a year, or pay for the restoration of some worship utensil (repairing a chalice etc). A cousin paid the salary of an immigrant aid worker as a memorial to a relation, but made certain that the priest had a year of Masses to say as well-- my correspondent noted that doing good was one thing, but fire escape maintenance should never be forgotten. She notes that her uncle felt that his obligations were fulfilled for life because he strong-armed the council into repaving the square beside the local church-- I suppose that this is a contribution of sorts!
She also noted that only PPP (political heir of moderate nationalists) supporters went to church in her home town and when the Socialists were in the majority, the street cleaners only tidied up the square by the church once a week.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
We just stopped taking the collection here.
If someone came round to my house, I would offer them a seat and a cup of tea - I wouldn't get them to pass a plate to collect their money.
Why should it be any different with guests at church?
Because when people come to your house there's no reason why they should be paying your bills or maintaining the work and living of the residents in your house? Presumably they're not expecting to get married, baptized or buried there either? And however grateful they may be for the coffee and custard creams, is it likely they'd feel such a depth of response for your love and mercy towards them, they'd feel compelled to fund your mission of hospitality, in spreading it to the wider community? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We used to ask people to put their dosh on a plate on a table at the back of the church, which plate was then brought to the altar at the offertory. Our last treasurer re-introduced the passing of the bag, instantly doubling the amount of dosh (in coins + notes, at any rate).....
......and our miniscule congo can easily be covered during the offertory hymn!
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
We just stopped taking the collection here.
If someone came round to my house, I would offer them a seat and a cup of tea - I wouldn't get them to pass a plate to collect their money.
Why should it be any different with guests at church?
Because when people come to your house there's no reason why they should be paying your bills or maintaining the work and living of the residents in your house? Presumably they're not expecting to get married, baptized or buried there either? And however grateful they may be for the coffee and custard creams, is it likely they'd feel such a depth of response for your love and mercy towards them, they'd feel compelled to fund your mission of hospitality, in spreading it to the wider community?
My reaction was similar to yours, Anselmina. I guess a lot turns on what we see as the primary identity of our pew-dwellers. My primary vision of them is as co-workers in the vineyard. They come to church to worship God and are sent out for their primary apostolate, the work of sanctifying the mundane and secular. As co-workers of those of us who staff parishes, one of the ways they contribute to the work is providing the parish with financial resources and other to survive and engage in outreach.
Your primary vision seems to be of guests, who come to be welcomed, nourished and evangelized.
Of course, I recognize there will be people who truly are guests in the congregation most weeks. Maybe we need to be more explicit about making clear that they're not expected to give.
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