Thread: Christingle, excited children and naked flames. Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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On an average Sunday, we are two-thirds empty. However we do have a couple of "standing room only" services each year, such as on Remembrance Sunday.
Last year we had more people than ever before at our Christingle service. We are risk-assessing this year's service, assuming similar numbers, and have concluded that actually lighting the individual Christingles in a packed church might be too risky. Instead we will have one lit at the front, and people will be asked to take theirs home and light them there.
What do other churches do?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Are there any reported instances of conflagrations caused by Christingle candles? If not, then your risk assessment may be unnecessarily pessimistic.
Just light the things.
Posted by Cottontail (# 12234) on
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A previous church I worked in was likewise packed for its Christingle service, and organised it thusly:
All the children were given an unlit Christingle orange when they came in. About two thirds of the way through the service, the children - about 70 of them - came out of the pews and stood all round the edges of the church (our pew arrangement allowed us to do this). If the child was under a certain age (say about 10), a parent or other adult was invited to come out with them.
The candles were then lit by volunteer adults going round with a gas lighter (so no passing the flame). The lights were dimmed, and everybody sang "Silent Night". Then the lights were brought back up again, the children blew out the candles, and all returned to their seats.
It seemed about as safe as we could make it. At least candles were not being lit in the crowded space of the pews, and an adult with each child answers some of the potential dangers.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Cottontail, that sounds ideal, but virtually everyone at the Christingle is a child under 10, an accompanying parent, or one of the regular congregation in some sort of organising capacity. I suspect we would end up with more people shuffling out to stand with the Christingles than remained in the pews.
Karl, quote:
Just light the things.
Pretty much my view. I have seen a hymn sheet catch fire, which created a bit of a frisson in the pew, but it was put out very quickly - I think it was dropped and stamped on. No toddlers were involved, though. If risk-assessing the Christingles wasn't bad enough, we also risk-assessed the possibility of smiting people with e-coli via the mince-pies.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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Risk assessments are part of my daily work. A risk assessment consists of two basic parts: the likelihood of something happening, and the seriousness of the consequences if it does.
If you're risk-assessing something that has already been happening for some time, then you're in the fortunate position of being able to ask, "What has happened before?" It gives you an excellent basis for assessing likelihood.
Or, as I said to our fire officer when we were discussing the risks of having altar candles in the hospital chapel at Sunday services - "Tell me, how many burning churches do you drive past on your way to work on a Monday morning?" He saw the point.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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NorthEastQuine - we do a similar thing to Cottontail, children in front, adults behind, ring around the church - adult helpers going round and lighting the candles (we use tapers). A good 100 Christingles are made.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Adeodatus, quote:
If you're risk-assessing something that has already been happening for some time, then you're in the fortunate position of being able to ask, "What has happened before?" It gives you an excellent basis for assessing likelihood.
We've been doing a Christingle service for some years now, but it's been growing in popularity; last year was our largest. Our Christmas services seem to be polarising amongst those who don't usually go to church; young families with under-8s go to Christingle, families with over-8s go to Carols by Candlelight, teens and childless young go to the Watchnight.
We really don't know what numbers to expect this year. I think last year we made 120 Christingles, though we had some left over at the end.
It could be that last year was a blip, or it could be that it was part of an increasing trend.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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I think if I were risk assessing a Christingle service, I'd want to break it down into a few more definable "events". Obviously the fire risks are only going to apply when the Christingles are lit. But even then, what are the fire risks? There's obviously a risk that someone will get burned. But are we talking injury, or fatality? Or multiple fatalities? Then there's the risk of damage to property - personal property such as clothing, and damage to the church building. And don't neglect the risk of distress and anxiety if a fire should break out. Finally, any of these could give rise to a risk of litigation.
But the point of analysing risk like this isn't to scare you into not doing it: it's to give you the information you need to go on and manage the risk. And the most obvious things you need when there's a fire risk are (a) a good evacuation plan and (b) people who are trained in fire safety, who can tackle a minor incident, and who can be trusted not to panic.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Last night's risk-assessment included a worst case scenario of a 5 year old girl with long hair, wearing an inflamable nylony jacket going up in flames; panicking parents attempting to scoop up and run with flailing toddlers, someone tripping and being trampled underfoot, with more people then tripping over them, eyes being poked out with cocktail sticks in the ensuing melee, and bodies piling up in the vestibule.
I kid you not.
And that was still better than the mince-pie / e-coli risk assessment, where the worst-case scenario involved carts rumbling through our village, and cries of "Bring Out Your Dead."
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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From my point of view, the risk area would be evacuating the church. We do the air-hostess style "the fire exits are here, and here" thing at the start, but if there was a problem, I could see a certain amount of confusion; especially if parents were trying to get hold of free-range toddlers prior to leaving the building.
But in terms of fire, I really can't envisage more than a nasty burn, or a badly scorched jacket.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
... bodies piling up in the vestibule.
See, there's your problem. Those bodies are blocking a fire exit.
Seriously, it's good to run a worst-case scenario exercise, but in my experience you usually do that after you've done your first-draft risk assessment and management. The purpose of the exercise is to make an extreme but reasonable test of your safeguards, not scare the life out of you. You need an experienced risk assessor to conduct the exercise, who'll have planned out the scenario in advance, and the outcome will be that you then go and redraft your risk management if you need to.
It can also be the source of a good deal of dark humour. I went to a risk exercise a while back where we were allowed to set up our own scenario - only to be told, "No, Adeodatus, you can't have an asteroid colliding with the chapel."
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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The other safety things are buckets of sand put at strategic places, making all the children face into the circle and hold out their candle in front of them and the helpers going around do a certain amount of making sure that hair is away from flames. They all sing "Round orange" and blow the candles out at the end, before moving back to their seats, or the helpers help them do so!
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Yes, I think that's it exactly. Apparently last year (I didn't see this, but I believe it) a group of Dads realising we were tight for space, selflessly left their wives with the over-excited toddlers in the pews and sat on the floor in front of one of our exits.
This is clearly a problem. We need to make sure it doesn't happen this year. But I'm not convinced about not lighting the Christingles.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We have the buckets of sand at the ready!
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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You can get (naff) little plastic flickering lights. The local hospice use them for their Light up a Life service.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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Probably the best safeguards are:
1. Have 4 - 6 people who've done basic fire safety training designated as "safety wardens". Identify them with sashes, big badges, whatever.
2. In particular, make sure your wardens know the "stop, drop, roll" technique if anyone's clothing or hair catches fire.
3. Have one person with a mobile phone designated to call emergency services if anything does happen.
4. Have some extra firefighting equipment around. Not just sand buckets (which are great for extinguishing candles anyway), but fire blankets big enough to wrap people in.
5. Brief the congregation beforehand: keep christingles away from hair and clothing. If anything does happen, step aside to make way for the safety wardens.
6. Keep exits clear.
7. Enjoy your christingle service.
That's just off the top of my head as I slurp a mug of coffee. There's probably more you could do, but be sensible.
Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on
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I think it strikes me as identical to the mad panic that prevented some congregations from receiving the Blood of Christ (or even shaking hands at the Peace) because they might get swine flu a few years back. This ridiculous situation went on in some congregations for months after the swine flu outbreak had subsided "just in case".
If the only way people can see to assuage their safety concerns is to fundamentally change the character of the event, then what's the point of doing the event in the first place? Christingle services are about the sharing of light in a dark world. Obviously I'm not suggesting giving flame-throwers to toddlers. But it seems to me that people are being rather too aware of the darkness of the world in their risk assessments.
Just light the things, having taken reasonable precautions that hundreds of other churches do every year! Or don't have a Christingle service at all- do something else.
(ETA- cross-posted with Adeodatus's very good list, which should surely calm the hearts of the most risk-averse PCC)
[ 02. November 2012, 11:52: Message edited by: Laurence ]
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The other safety things are buckets of sand put at strategic places, making all the children face into the circle and hold out their candle in front of them and the helpers going around do a certain amount of making sure that hair is away from flames. They all sing "Round orange"
Oh how I hate that song.
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I can see the worry, but not letting the children stand in a circle, hold their own orange with their own flickering candle and singing the chosen carol with the church lights turned off, more or less as Cottontail describes, is likely to mean they won't bother to come next year.
Likewise not giving them a nice mince pie and squash or a warm drink afterwards because one is worried they might get e coli.
But I suppose that will solve the problem for future years.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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The food hygiene thing is also very simple.
1. Wash your hands thoroughly before cooking or handling food.
2. Observe "use by" dates.
3. Make sure food is properly cooked.
4. Use only pasteurised milk and fruit juices.
5. If food is laid out waiting to be served, keep it covered with clean greaseproof paper.
The thing is, people know all this, but they get all jittery and panicky. Maybe they're scared of litigation. If so, all you really need to do is to have it written down somewhere that this is how you do things, and make sure this really is how you do things. Litigation is only really a problem if you've neglected to deal with a foreseeable outcome. And I assume your church has public liability insurance?
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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My fiancee had to put out a little girl's hair during a Sunday school that involved kiddies holding lit candles once. It does happen.
[ 02. November 2012, 13:06: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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bib,
quote:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is,
This is a Christingle. The sweets stuck on the cocktail sticks are the main attraction to small children.
Our Christingle services include a very simple retelling of the Christmas story, giving out and lighting the Christingles, singing some simple Christmas hymns, and a talk about the symbolism of the Christingle.
The candles are a bit more risky than carols by candlelight, because of children moving them around whilst grazing on the sweets, trying to nab their sibling's sweets etc. It's a sort of combined toy/ naked flame.
Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on
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Sunday school has a high kid:adult ratio (well, OK, Sunday School at churches with more than one family with young children). If the kids get over-excited, goofy, or are just plain naughty that can create problems.
At a Christingle, or any other family service, there are more adults around. In particular, the kids will be accompanied by a parent/grandparent or other responsible carer. That changes the dynamic, and the risk. Providing the adult carers are sensible, are supervising the kids in their care and have some level of control then the risks of lighted candles are minimized.
And, contrary to the "selfless" behaviour of dads who gave up their chairs (hardly selfless as that leaves their partners in sole charge of the kids - selfless would be "I can handle this dear, go and find a childless friend to sit with") that probably means all carers mucking in.
A simple statement at the beginning. "Some people have expressed concern about over excited children with lit candles. Those of you who have children, please ensure that your children behave responsibly when the candles are lit."
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.
But are completely boring and destroy the entire ambiance.
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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Do they have to be part of their own service? It seems like a neat thing to hand out to the kiddies for the carols-by-candlight service.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Do they have to be part of their own service? It seems like a neat thing to hand out to the kiddies for the carols-by-candlight service.
Heh. If you call it a "Christingle" then the church will be full. If you call it "Carols by Candlelight" the church will be half empty. Marketing, dear boy, marketing.
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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If you call it "Christingle" in the United States, no one will know what you are talking about. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We have a full church for both Christingle and Carols by Candlelight. But apart from the stalwarts from the regular congregation, we attract a different set of people for each service. It's the difference between "Away in a Manger" and "O Come, o come, Emmanuel" - the over 8s don't want to sing Away in a Manger, the parents of under 8s don't want to keep them amused during more complicated hymns. So people naturally chose which service is most family-friendly for them.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
If you call it "Christingle" in the United States, no one will know what you are talking about.
This I know.
Last year Christingle was on something like the 2nd December. The Rector, bless his cotton socks (or not, All Saints threads passim), told the kids to keep the orange and put it on the Christmas Dinner table to remind them of what they'd talked about at Christingle.
Thanks, Rev. Three squishy mouldy oranges with green bits hanging off them by 25th...
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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In the US Church, it is common to have an early evening Christmas Eve carol service oriented towards families, and then "Midnight Mass with Carols" for a more grown-up experience. So we've already got that division going on.
[ 02. November 2012, 13:51: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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We have four different Christmas services -Christingle, Carols by Candlelight, midnight Watchnight, Christmas Day. Plus a "gift service" at the start of December for donations of toys etc for social services, but that service doesn't attract any extra people. Christmas Day, too, tends to be mostly the regular congregation.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.
Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
My fiancee had to put out a little girl's hair during a Sunday school that involved kiddies holding lit candles once. It does happen.
I had to jump up and smack a Cardinal once - not to tell him he was an eejit or because I objected to the homily, but because he had leant into a candle unawares and the chasuble was starting to burn!
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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Christmas tends to be a private, family holiday in the United States. Christmas Eve services are often packed to the rafters, but Christmas morning is usually sparsely attended.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Karl, quote:
Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.
You're describing our dreaded "no Sunday School today, it's an All Age Service" avoided by every sensible parent, and full of elderly people struggling to do the "fun" action songs.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Karl, quote:
Orienting a service towards families over here usually guarantees the congregation will be thirty old ladies and four grandchildren.
You're describing our dreaded "no Sunday School today, it's an All Age Service" avoided by every sensible parent, and full of elderly people struggling to do the "fun" action songs.
Oh don't - nothing more toe-curlingly awful than watching a bunch of uninterested kids reading books or playing on DSes while their parents/keepers enthusiastically do "one potato, two potato" actions to I will build my Church
If I've led a wicked life, or some more enthusiastic supporters of the Hell doctrine are right, that that's what'll happen to me for all eternity - devils with guitars hanging on rainbow straps forcing me to run on the spot as I sing "the name of the Lord is a strong tower"
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima, maxima culpa; miserere mihi in die carminae actionis!
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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This is drifting away from the risks of toddlers / naked flames / sticky-out pointy cocktail sticks, but why can we fill the church to bursting point, standing room only, for Christingle; to the extent we have to risk assess for conflagrations in a tightly packed church, but on a normal Sunday we are two-thirds empty, with a median age of over 50?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by birdie (# 2173) on
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My neice's hair was once ignited by a christingle. Swift application of a service sheet to beat out the flames dealt with it without her even noticing.
I think the reason it happened that time was that the church was full, and the kids were doing some sort of procession with the christingles lit. So there were a lot of kids, and the one behind R was shorter than her, and close behind. Ideal hair-ignition conditions, I'd have said.
I think if the kids stay still when the candles are lit, and sit in their circle or whatever, and the candles are blown out before anybody goes anywhere else, that would go a long way to minimising the risk.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
This is drifting away from the risks of toddlers / naked flames / sticky-out pointy cocktail sticks, but why can we fill the church to bursting point, standing room only, for Christingle; to the extent we have to risk assess for conflagrations in a tightly packed church, but on a normal Sunday we are two-thirds empty, with a median age of over 50?
Sweets? It's only once a year? Habit?
Our gaff'd consider it a miracle if the median age was only over 50. Over 80 seems more usual.
[ 02. November 2012, 14:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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Two churches, two very different Cristingle services. In one they had the Scouts in so around forty kids, who were given Cristingles as part of the service. In the other the children were a subset of the Junior Church plus a family who happened already to be visiting Grandparents for Christmas. They made their own Cristingle. The thing was that at least for the smaller kids they both used glo sticks instead of candles.
Jengie
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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£18.89 for 25. I reckon we'd need 5 packs - almost £100.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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Yes but that is just an illustration, here are two hundred for less than £100 and I suspect that if you raided local discount stalls you might well find them going for less.
Jengie
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on
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Do you have a fire fighter in the congregation, or perhaps would you be willing to hire one for the night? You have to be careful about this, as it takes a very patient fire fighter to be around children with candles. If you have a trusted fire fighter friend or acquaintance, s/he could probably provide invaluable advice about evacuation plans and safety devices needed. In my town, even if we as a church randomly called the fire department and explained the predicament, I'm sure we could get a consultant to attend who would most likely refuse payment. The key, though, would be to get a level-headed person you know and trust.
[ 02. November 2012, 15:22: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on
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I go with one of the posters above. Our Christingle tends to be packed, rivalling our midnight service. We expect around 200 people upwards. The Children's Society, which sponsors Christingle services on this side of the border offers this sensible safety poster.
When the time comes to distribute the Christingles the safety points are outlined by the service leader; the children come out and collect their oranges and spread round the church forming a large circle facing inwards round the edges (parents are encouraged to accompany children who 'need help'); when children reach a standing still point, one of the four helpers who is lighting lights their candle, children have been told to stand still, hold the candle straight up in front of them with two hands, and not to bend over it, long hair should be tied back. Once all the candles are lit we sing (us. 'Away in a manger' because children can usually sing the first verse at least without a hymn sheet). Children are then told to blow their candle out, being careful of hot wax, and to return quietly to their seats. The noise level usually rises at this point as the lights go up again, but after a few minutes things calm down again.
Our risk assessment is that the big safety hazards are moving with lighted candles (we don't do it) bending over candles or having hair in candles (we give appropriate warnings), and children who are too young to cope (we require parents/carers to exercise their discretion). So far so good (over the last ten years or so).
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Many thanks everyone, for the sensible advice. We seem to have lots of options other than not lighting the Christingles.
Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I'm afraid I don't know what Christingle is, although it sounds a little like carols by candlelight. It is possible to purchase lights that do not involve flame. Once you activate them they give off light for a couple of hours. They were preferred at last year's carols by candlelight and of course posed no risks to young children.
Since Google is your friend, you can always find out about Christingle there. But it's interesting to note that some variant or another of Christingle is observed all across the UK, so everyone there knows what it is.
What am a Christingle?
In the USA no one knows what Christingle is because the custom of such services was never widely introduced here. That said, the now ubiquitous Christingle service in England was introduced by there by Anglicans only in 1968. The Christingle service itself seems to have been originally devised by the German Moravians, and it can be dated with them as far back as the year 1747.
*
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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It ws kind of forced on me in my parish in NZ. I hate it, but at least insofar as it attracts lots of people to church it seems inexplicably to "work". It seems to me like a gimmick looking for a liturgy, but so alas do a lot of things. So when someone in this parish eventually suggests it I guess I'll have to supress my cynicism and let it happen.
Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on
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I am as conservative as they come with worship, but for some reason I kind of like this idea. Though, given my druthers, I would probably just make it an understated part of the usual carols service by handing them to the kiddies instead of plain old candles. Kinda like the Advent wreath- just have it there. It doesn't need to be a frakkin' cutsey production!
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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I still think glo sticks are a safer alternative to candles around young children and in my experience they find them lots of fun. If cost is an issue, how about they buy one at the door -people were happy to do that at our carols by Candlelight Service. Surely safety is the main issue here as burns can maim a child for life.
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on
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One alternative to the cocktail sticks for those seeking to minimise risk:
When I've made Christingles I've tended to use wooden toothpicks that are only pointed at one end. I'm a bit squeamish even thinking about eyes and possible injury.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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When I was deputy headteacher we used to have a Christingle service every year - it became a tradition, all 300 children made one. We covered the stage in tin foil and placed all the christingles on there. TAs lit them and the children sat at a safe distance. We had teachers with buckets of sand etc under their chairs just in case. Our Chair of governors was a firefighter and was perfectly happy with the set up.
They were lovely services, enhanced by images on the big screen.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
In the USA no one knows what Christingle is because the custom of such services was never widely introduced here.
Indeed, when I saw my first photo of a Christingle, my impression was that it's absolutely bizarre and utterly unlike any Christmas tradition I'd ever heard of. This is partly because I wouldn't associate oranges with Christmas. But my horizons have fortunately been widened since that first shock encounter.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Doesn't help that most descriptions of Christingle services seem to amount to "Children are given this weird orange-based thing, then there is or is not a fire-related incident, and then Silent Night is sung." That's it?
[ 03. November 2012, 16:44: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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I am pretty sure American Moravians know about Cristingle service, as it comes from that tradition.
Jengie
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
In the USA no one knows what Christingle is because the custom of such services was never widely introduced here.
Indeed, when I saw my first photo of a Christingle, my impression was that it's absolutely bizarre and utterly unlike any Christmas tradition I'd ever heard of. This is partly because I wouldn't associate oranges with Christmas. But my horizons have fortunately been widened since that first shock encounter.
Doesn't help that most descriptions of Christingle services seem to amount to "Children are given this weird orange-based thing, then there is or is not a fire-related incident, and then Silent Night is sung." That's it?
And then the congregation goes home, leaving the church building smelling of caramelised orange.
Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I am pretty sure American Moravians know about Cristingle service, as it comes from that tradition.
Jengie
When I was a wee Lutheran (I'm talking 1980s here), I was duly given an orange at every one of my Christmas Programs. This was the big evening spectacle wherein all good Lutheran sang songs, recited special things they had to memorize, and performed skits. At the end, we passed out presents that parents and families had put under the church's tree earlier when we were practicing. Every child got an orange. I think it goes back to the olden days when oranges were a luxury in the Midwest during winter. It didn't make much sense to me, but then I read an explanation somewhere. (I think it was in a Laura Ingalls Wilder book, Olaf is manly enough to admit.) We didn't do anything with candles, though.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I am pretty sure American Moravians know about Cristingle service, as it comes from that tradition.
Jengie
I'm not so sure. I have lived all my life in one of the areas of the US where Moravians have historically been concentrated and where there is a noticeable Moravian influence (Moravian stars are a ubiquitous Christmas decoration in these parts) and have never seen or heard mention of Christingles here. (And a search of the word "Christingle" at the website of the Moravian Church in North America turns up 0 results.)
Say "Moravian" and "candle" around here and this is what people will assume is meant. Interestingly, both this link and the one you provided relate back to the same story. But the link you gave suggests that the oranges and candy are a British Moravian development. I think the word "Christingle" may be chiefly British as well.
There certainly is a common source and a common use of the candle with red ribbon/crepe paper, but I'm thinking Christingles as you on the other side of the pond know them are unfamiliar here.
[ 03. November 2012, 20:24: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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The link you give is to the same thing and is recognisable as a Cristingle. The orange may be British as the elaborate symbolism but the origin is Moravian.
Jengie
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The link you give is to the same thing and is recognisable as a Cristingle. The orange may be British as the elaborate symbolism but the origin is Moravian.
Right, there is definitely a common source. But I think that if you mentioned "Christingles" to American Moravians, most wouldn't know what you're talking about. And if you then described them, complete with oranges and sweets, they'd see the similarity/common source, but still see the "Christingle" as somewhat unfamiliar. That was my point.
Posted by Avila (# 15541) on
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We have a small building and a popular Christingle service. We do self assembly arrangements, with actual candles which can be lit at home at adults' guidance/own risk etc but for the lights out bit we use glowsticks.
As they are not trying to pretend to be the same size etc as the candles we can use the packets of skinny ones from the pound shop.
This year the service will be at the end of the weekend of the tree festival, so giving less space than previous years!
Posted by Laxton's Superba (# 228) on
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We use glo-sticks too, they can be obtained for only pennies each on ebay, market stalls, etc etc. We use cocktail sticks still, but put a biggish sweet on the end so that there is no sharp point. We have so many children and adults that we have to run 2 separate Christingle services, both of which are packed full.
Churches are full of fire hazards. Life is full of potential dangers. But the magic of candlight combined with sweets actually sanctioned and encouraged by grown-ups, is a big draw. We always have extra sidespeople and are diligent in keeping the aisles clear. We have buckets of sand in multiple locations. We give a clear indication of our awareness of risk at the beginning of the service and we encourage parents to help their children.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I think it goes back to the olden days when oranges were a luxury in the Midwest during winter.
Not that olden! Oranges were expensive and associated with Christmas in my own childhood here in England. Particularly tangerines for some reason.
The Moravian origin does seem odd to me. Did they really have oranges in 18th-century Bohemia?
But then I always assumed Christingle was American because, well it just seems so American. I was surprised to find it wasn't. I never really liked the idea myself. Too blibsy. But some people obviously do.
As for candles, just use candles. Its all part of the fun. And sort of real. No point in messing around with plastic glow-sticks. There's too much fakery around in the world anyway. Why add to it?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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blibsy blibsy blibsy <google is my friend ..... >
Googles ... blibsy blibsy blibsy ...
Nope.
No translation there.
What is 'blibsy' ken?
Posted by Cryptic (# 16917) on
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We have our Christingle at 6pm on Christmas Eve. The church is usually full to packed, we make about 300 Christingles to be distributed. Being a city church all kids come with an adult, although for many families the kid:parent ratio is pretty high.
At the time for the Christingle procession, the children come forward and are given a lighted Christingle, they process around the church then back to their seats. We have the clergy and servers leading the procession, and they keep things moving. Before the procession, we announce what is going to happen and suggest that older children can process on their own, but younger ones should be accompanied. All of our clergy/servers/vergers etc are briefed on being vigilant about kids and naked flames, and about the location os buckets of sand and water around and fire extinguishers. In the seven years that I've been doing it, there has never been anything even slightly worrying happen.
Just after I took over the organising of the service, the lady that used to run it wrote to our parish council about the dangers of naked flames and children and suggested that we use battery operated candles instead. The idea was condemned by all, on the grounds that too much of children's lives is being sanitised into oblivion. Real candles are worth the effort.
BTW - we used lollipops in place of lolly toothpicks as we don't fancy making up 1200 toothpicks!
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
What is 'blibsy' ken?
I'm not Ken, but I'd use it to mean twee or frilly - the sort of frou-frou nick-nack you might find in an over-priced 'gift shop' selling home-made craft goods.
Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on
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The original Moravian tradition (started 1747 in Marienborn, Germany) was for a candle with a red ribbon around it. The use of an orange began in Britain towards the end of the nineteenth century, which would explain why American Moravians might be unaware of it.
<sarky tangent>Perhaps the 'orange as a world, with bits stuck into it' appealed to late-nineteenth century Britons because it reminded them of those nice globes painted with lots of pink bits.</sarky tangent>
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
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I seem to remember reading a church court decision many years ago, refusing a faculty for an electric candle, on the grounds that God should not be worshipped with a fake. He may be worshipped with a flickering candle or with an electric bulb that is honestly a bulb, but not with an electric bulb pretending to be a candle.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
blibsy blibsy blibsy <google is my friend ..... >
Googles ... blibsy blibsy blibsy ...
Nope.
No translation there.
What is 'blibsy' ken?
In some parts of Australia we have an easter bilby. But that may be different.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I seem to remember reading a church court decision many years ago, refusing a faculty for an electric candle, on the grounds that God should not be worshipped with a fake. He may be worshipped with a flickering candle or with an electric bulb that is honestly a bulb, but not with an electric bulb pretending to be a candle.
Well, many of us feel like fakes when we are not in the mood for worship but turn up anyway, 'pretending' to be prayerful.
Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I think it goes back to the olden days when oranges were a luxury in the Midwest during winter.
Not that olden! Oranges were expensive and associated with Christmas in my own childhood here in England. Particularly tangerines for some reason.
The Moravian origin does seem odd to me. Did they really have oranges in 18th-century Bohemia?
Same here. Tangerines (and dates) were associated with Christmas - but not oranges. I have a vague memory they came from South Africa - so it may have been something to do with post-war colonial southern hemisphere summers.
I wonder if the Christingle orange has its Moravian origins in the pomander - the bag or ball of aromatics carried to conceal nasty smells.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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Thank you everybody. We lit the Christingles, sang one verse of one hymn, then all the children shouted out "Happy Birthday, Jesus!" and blew their candles out. Result - the candles were lit for a minimum time, and blowing them out was part of the fun.
No children were burned, maimed, blinded by cocktail sticks, trampled underfoot etc, etc. It was all good.
(Should I be worried that I found skewering 96 cute little jelly teddy bears on sharp cocktail sticks deeply satisfying?)
Posted by Gill H (# 68) on
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Ours was led under difficult circumstances - the person who would have led it was struck down by a nasty norovirus, and the soloist was ill too.
Despite this we had a great service, with an excellent two part message explaining that the meaning of Christmas was presents/presence.
Christingles were made during the service, although plans for them to be lit while the building was dark were scuppered by the pianist discovering he couldn't see the music for the hastily-arranged replacement soloist... (who did a wonderful 'O holy night' - probably the first time her newborn daughter had heard mummy's amazing voice).
It was all rather wonderful in a strange, unplanned sort of way. Bit like the first Christmas really.
[ 24. December 2012, 20:36: Message edited by: Gill H ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Our Christingle Service was also slightly (!) chaotic and informal, and so was our Crib Service & Nativity Play yesterday.......
....and yet, there was still a sense of awe and wonder at the mystery of the Incarnation - and both these services were very well-attended. My Anglican sense of a need for constant order and formality is beginning to wear thin......
By contrast, our formal and traditional Carols & Lessons and Midnight Mass both had rather sparse congregations this year (for various reasons, including heavy rain last night which doubtless discouraged potential visitors). Still, maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to tell us summink....
Ian J.
Posted by jugular (# 4174) on
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This year we had our first ever Christingle service on Christmas Eve. There were about 25 children present, with a total of about 60 people altogether.
We began in the hall, with the children sitting on the floor in a circle. I demonstrated how to make a Christingle, then the children went with an adult to tables which had been set up with the necessary materials. They made their Christingles and brought them back to the circle, where we revised what each part of the Christingle meant.
We then walked with (unlit) Christingles into the church building, singing Silent Night. We then had fairly brief and simple nativity play. Once the nativity 'scene' was complete, the children were invited to come forward to be the stars around the manger. The children stood in a large circle in the chancel, and their candles were lit from the Christ Candle in the Advent Wreath. The lighting was covered by the singing of a carol by the adults.
We then had a set of brief prayers with a simple response, while the children generally stared at their light and enjoyed being near fire (every child's dream). We then 'changed' the light. This is an idea from Godly Play - changing the light means extinguishing the candle, but it is explained as changing the light, so that instead of being in one place, it spreads and fills the whole room, and the whole world. Children watch the smoke from the candle rise up, and are invited to imagine the light around them all the time.
A final carol, a blessing and everyone was home in under an hour. The fire risk was managed by the children being in a circle, with an adult nearby for the smaller ones, and the candles only burning for about two minutes. We have fire extinguishers and whatnot on standby at all times, so that wasn't an issue.
Posted by Carys (# 78) on
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We have a risk assessment specific to Christingle and a standard fire plan which we even did a drill for in the summer. A couple of adeodatus's points could improve it though. BUt Christingle (with about 200 lit christingles went off fine.
Carys
Posted by Clemency (# 16173) on
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Cannot resist putting this in, I wrote a few years ago.... (to be sung by innocent childlike voices)
See the advent candles, standing in a ring
What a pretty sight; they show us Christmas is coming
Lucky Lucy gets to strike a match upon the box,
All at once its head cones off and sets fire to her socks
See the flames lead upwards! Lucy goes berserk
We bring a fire extinguished, oh dear! it does not work
Everyone is shouting, rushing to and fro
Pretty soon the church becomes a total inferno
See the bishop blazing! listen to the choir
They can sing much louder now, that they are on fire
The fire brigade are coming now, down the street they dash
What a pity nothing's left except for lots of ash
But what a jolly time we had, watching smoke and flame
It was so much fun that we must come to church again.
Apologies....
Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on
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The candle display on the centre table this morning suddenly decided to flame a little more brightly at one end than the other. Only four of us noticed. The Smudgelet was ready to leap into action, but one of the stewards calmly walked rather swiftly forward. He must have quite impressive lung capacity as he managed to blow the fire out! A little readjustment of the greenery around the candles and the rest were left to burn without further incident. I'll swear half the congregation didn't even notice!
Posted by Carys (# 78) on
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Other thing we do is have first aiders from St John Ambulance present at our big Christmas services. Not directly related to candles, but sensible for large crowds.
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Last night's risk-assessment included a worst case scenario of a 5 year old girl with long hair, wearing an inflamable nylony jacket going up in flames; panicking parents attempting to scoop up and run with flailing toddlers, someone tripping and being trampled underfoot, with more people then tripping over them, eyes being poked out with cocktail sticks in the ensuing melee, and bodies piling up in the vestibule.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I kid you not.
And that was still better than the mince-pie / e-coli risk assessment, where the worst-case scenario involved carts rumbling through our village, and cries of "Bring Out Your Dead."
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
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Given the multitudes of candles that were lit in churches in the UK (and most of Christendom) before the Reformation, and the passing of the various Health and Safety at Work Acts, is there any documentary evidence of how many people were consumed by fire in churches.......?
......I thought not..... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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