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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The place of the choir in church services
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I have sung in a parish church choir since childhood, believing music to be a very important part of the liturgy and the service as a whole, with those who have talent in this area helping to lead the singing and enhance the worship of others in the congregation, both with communal song and also choir-only anthems.
However, I have been giving a deal of thought to this assumption recently, due to the combination of a number of factors - and would welcome suggestions from other choristers, church musicians and members with wider church experience.
The situation, as we have it, is a choir of amateur singers who are welcomed without audition to contribute as well as they can to the musical life of the church. The present choir master believes strongly that the choir should be open to all who wish to participate, as we are an inclusive church. So far this has worked well - we have a mixture of very talented singers, some (including me) fairly average but willing to work hard to reach a good standard, and others who don't really have much of a clue when they start but manage to learn on the job.
Recently, however, the news of the lack of audition has got around and we are starting to see more people becoming brave enough to give it a go - people who cannot sight-read and in some cases people who cannot even sing in tune. This is not really a problem if they have very quiet voices and listen more than they sing - at worst they cannot be heard, at best they may be able to improve over time. The difficulty occurs when the balance changes - people with loud voices who cannot sing in tune overwhelming those who are singing what they are supposed to be singing. The danger, once the choir reaches this stage, is that good singers might no longer want to join what they will see as a poor choir, and that members of the congregation will not wish to attend a church where the choir are poor.
Does one accept that they are doing their best in the worship of God? Or bring in compulsory auditions for choir members, whilst being inclusive in accepting everyone into the wider ministry of the church? Should the choir be limited in their repertoire only to simple items that all can manage? Should the sung items in church services be limited only to hymns which involve the whole congregation, good singers and poor singers alike?
Have other people experienced similar dilemmas? Any ideas on best practice?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Isn't there an unwarranted definite article in the thread title? 'The' choir implies that churches have them. Most of the churches I have worked in (Anglican, mostly middle to high) have not. This might not be typical but the OP is taking a lot for granted.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And very few Nonconformist churches have choirs of that type - although we do, as it happens. Of course quite a number of Afro-Caribbean churches have "Gospel" choirs, and many of the more Evangelical churches have music groups, about which one could ask the same question posed by the OP.
I have to say that this is verging on DH territory as it has come up before on several occasions. One possible solution - if one is seeing quite a lot of folk coming forward - is to have two choirs, one of them a "training choir" which would sing simpler music and lead worship (say) once a month, and perhaps sing together with the "proper choir" on Festal occasions. Moving up from one to the other would be by audition and/or decision of the Music Director.
Does anyone do that?
[ 30. January 2013, 17:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If only people who can sight-read can sing in the choir there wouldn't be very many people in the choir. Thankfully our church doesn't have that requirement or we'd have no tenors or basses at all, and precious few sopranos.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Out of all the churches I've been to, only the Anglo-Catholic ones have ever had choirs.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I've attended MANY Episcopal churches over my life time. Every single one has had a choir, though with a variety of quality -- from Saint Thomas, Fifth Avenue, on down the line.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I'm happy to hear from people in churches with choirs, and without. Unprecedented occasions call for all viewpoints.
I'm especially interested in the idea of a training choir - that sounds rather like the junior choir we used to have, the youngsters started off in this and then didn't join the main choir until they were ready.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
A possible solution, and one I have seen in a few churches and at college, is to have a no audition choir that sings at all services, but the good singers are part of (an auditioned; or at least invited) group who, on occasions, sing more complex motets etc. They are often called things like 'schola' or 'the chamber choir'. These singers act as section leaders for the normal choir, sing solos etc.
It seems to work quite well provided the good singers want to be fully involved in the music making of the whole church.
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That's not how we do it here.......
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Out of all the churches I've been to, only the Anglo-Catholic ones have ever had choirs.
Interesting. I would associate 'choirs' in Chorister's sense with MOTR churches. Anglo-catholics often go for select groups of professional singers, unless they are the back-street sort of church I'm more familiar with, which struggle along with Gregory Murray and an amateur organist.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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wheelie racer
Shipmate
# 13854
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Posted
I co-ordinate the music group in a small, but growing inner-city CofE church. We would probably describe ourselves as "slightly left of centre" in terms of theology and worship. The group I lead consists of people ranging in age from 8-80 and we have a very eclectic mix of talent, instruments, ability etc - both instrumentalists and singers, ranging from child recorder players to a music teacher in a private school. The principles I employ are (1) people must first have a commitment to faith, or be searching for faith and have some level of commitment to being a part of the worshipping community of St X (2) Be committed to attend and participate in regular practices (3) espec in the case of children, be able to play at least two tunes at a reasonable standard on a sunday morning - tunes that they are unable to play, they will not be able to play with group for those songs - may be allowed to stand with adult singers and sing instead. (4)Be prepared to be part of prayers during rehersals, and occasional teaching/ development sessions as a worship team (5) Have, or be open to developing some understanding of what worship is, and an understanding that participating in the worship group is about leading and helping others to meet with God in worship
We do not audition, and are fairly fluid in the make-up of the group on a sunday morning. We don't audition, but do insist on meeting with potential new musicians and singers before they attend first practice, and ask that they attend a few practices before participating on a sunday morning, so we, and they can get a gauge on whether it is going to work, and both myself as co-ordinator and the person involved can work out whether they should b e a part of the worship team.
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Disability Rights: To boldly go where everyone else has gone..
Posts: 171 | From: off this planet | Registered: Jun 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
A possible solution, and one I have seen in a few churches and at college, is to have a no audition choir that sings at all services, but the good singers are part of (an auditioned; or at least invited) group who, on occasions, sing more complex motets etc. They are often called things like 'schola' or 'the chamber choir'. These singers act as section leaders for the normal choir, sing solos etc.
It seems to work quite well provided the good singers want to be fully involved in the music making of the whole church.
Now that sounds like a really good idea. We do have a quartet that do show pieces at concerts, etc. What you seem to be proposing is something in between the full choir and a quartet, say about 12-16 singers, comprising the best of each part put together.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
A 'select group of professional singers' sounds like London to me, or at least a church with access to University choral scholars. I'm not so sure it works in more rural areas.
Wheelie Racer's set-up sounds like a good compromise between the 'let all-comers join in' and the 'check-em out first' approach.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I would no more let the socially tone deaf occupy front-line leadership positions in a caring ministry, say for example, a community dinner for the area homeless or a visiting hospice ministry, than I would fly to the moon.
Why on earth should the ministry of music leadership be left to the musically tone deaf? quote:
Chorister asks:
Does one accept that they are doing their best in the worship of God?
Their best does not entail musical leadership. There is plenty to do in worship. Not everyone should be singing in the leadership. quote:
Or bring in compulsory auditions for choir members, whilst being inclusive in accepting everyone into the wider ministry of the church?
Either we think we should be offering our best during the divine worship, or we don't.
Auditions ought to be the norm when a parish has enough musical talent to field a capable choir.
Worship leadership is not a right. quote:
Should the choir be limited in their repertoire only to simple items that all can manage?
A choir should offer to God the very best of which they are capable; but, no better.
But, that does not mean that choir membership should be limited to the worst musicians. That is what will happen should duffers get the upper hand. quote:
Should the sung items in church services be limited only to hymns which involve the whole congregation, good singers and poor singers alike?
That is limiting the richness of the church's offering. Hymns are both the musically capable and for the duffers.
I've rarely been in a Sunday morning service in an Episcopal parish which did not have a choir of some sort.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm back to say that the process wheelie racer describes is an audition by another name.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
At our little place, basically anyone with musical experience and minimal talent is in the choir; this is never more than about seven women and three men. Their purpose, though, is to lead the congregation in singing (or chanting the ordinary), and this they do well enough. It does help if the congregation likes to sing, of course, as ours does. I would rather hear my congregation singing a hymn together than hear some complicated choral arrangement any day.
I'm with TSA here. Most church choirs are not professional organizations, but the leading of worship in a church does require a minimal level of skill. Most people really are self-aware enough to understand that if they can't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid on it (and I surely cannot), their place is not in the choir. Those in charge of organizing worship ought not to be afraid to point that out.
[ 30. January 2013, 20:00: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by aig:
A possible solution, and one I have seen in a few churches and at college, is to have a no audition choir that sings at all services, but the good singers are part of (an auditioned; or at least invited) group who, on occasions, sing more complex motets etc. They are often called things like 'schola' or 'the chamber choir'. These singers act as section leaders for the normal choir, sing solos etc.
It seems to work quite well provided the good singers want to be fully involved in the music making of the whole church.
Now that sounds like a really good idea. We do have a quartet that do show pieces at concerts, etc. What you seem to be proposing is something in between the full choir and a quartet, say about 12-16 singers, comprising the best of each part put together.
In the churches that I have been in those that have a 'choir' only number at most 10 people maybe only half a dozen.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Pulsator Organorum Ineptus
Shipmate
# 2515
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Posted
It's fine.
In addition, people with no experience or aptitude should be allowed to make vestments, play (and even tune and repair) the organ, mend the roof, rewire the lights, service the boiler - oh, and touch up the wall paintings.
What could possibly go wrong?
Posts: 695 | From: Bronteland | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
...oh, and touch up the wall paintings.
What could possibly go wrong?
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In the churches that I have been in those that have a 'choir' only number at most 10 people maybe only half a dozen.
In Creamtealand we seem to have 'bunching' - many choirs have either died out or been encouraged out, consequently the choirs that are left attract keen choristers who have been left 'homeless' as a result, and are therefore of a good size.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
A 'select group of professional singers' sounds like London to me, or at least a church with access to University choral scholars. I'm not so sure it works in more rural areas.
Not necessarily London, but I'm sure you are right. IIRC Chorister, you are in a country town, which I imagine is the ideal sort of place for your sort of choir. In a town you will have a good cross section of ages, classes, backgrounds, and doubtless several competent musicians without many alternative outlets for their skills. And you will have a church with a fairly large and settled congregation which will not be dominated by a largish choir.
Village churches won't have those advantages. Nor do most urban (ie city) parishes. Here I know a few churches- usually with a bigger than average congregation - which are lucky enough to have an enthusiastic organist/choir trainer who can encourage a competent choir, but the majority of churches have small congregations: if they are traditionally-inclined they might dress up two or three children and elderly people in surplices and make some attempt, but generally they will either rely on congregational singing accompanied by an organ, or some sort of music group. One otherwise prestigious city church I know of has a deliberate policy of not having a choir, except for the occasional use of professional singers.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I must admit I dislike being in a choir where those who can't read music tend to just sing the 'tune'. This is particularly difficult if these voices happen to be male as the balance and whole sound is distorted. I would prefer a choir of musicians who can read music and add to the worship, but I realise that in some churches there are insufficient people who can do this. However, it must be remembered that we are told in Corinthians that some are preachers, some are teachers, some are healers and I guess to extend this, some are singers. People need to be aware of their particular gifts and use the appropriately. I would no more get up to preach than fly to the moon. However, there are many in the congregation who can sing and read music but are not willing to make the committment to be in the choir. I don't know how you overcome this reluctance.
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Rural choirs:
From Thomas Hardy: "Now mind, neighbours," he (William Dewey) said, as they all went out one by one at the door, he himself holding it ajar and regarding them with a critical face as they passed, like a shepherd counting out his sheep.
"You two counter-boys, keep your ears open to Michael's fingering, and don't ye go straying into the treble part along o' Dick and his set, as ye did last year; and mind this especially when we be in 'Arise, and hail.'
Billy Chimlen, don't you sing quite so raving mad as you fain would; and, all o' ye, whatever ye do, keep from making a great scuffle on the ground when we go in at people's gates; but go quietly, so as to strike up all of a sudden, like spirits."
From Laurie Lee: One by one they came stumbling over the snow, swinging their lanterns around their heads, shouting and coughing horribly. “Coming carol-barking then?”
We were the Church Choir, so no answer was necessary. For a year we had praised the Lord, out of key, and as a reward for this service - on top of the Outing - we now had the right to visit all the big houses, to sing our carols and collect our tribute ...
Our first call as usual was the house of the Squire, and we trouped nervously down his drive. A maid bore the tidings of our arrival away into the echoing distances of the house. The door was left ajar and we were bidden to begin. We brought no music, the carols were in our heads. 'Let's give 'em 'Wild Shepherds', said Jack. We began in confusion, plunging into a wreckage of keys, of different words and tempos; but we gathered our strength; he who sand loudest took the rest of us with him, and the carol took shape if not sweetness.
I think things have probably improved since then ...
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It would seem from the attitude displayed here that the true solution would be to hire a professional choir. Clearly amateurs aren't up to snuff, and God hates a cheerful giver, and the widow's mite sucks. Let those who REALLY have money do the giving. Some are teachers, and some are prophets, and some are donors. Why fight it?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It shouldn't be necessary to be able to read music in order to sing in parts. What it takes is an appropriately trained choir leader and an appropriate choice of repertoire. I once attended a workshop led by some people from Iona, and it seemed quite doable with their technique.
I'm not speaking from an Anglican point of view, though, and I suppose a 'traditional' CofE choir needs very precise skill set.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Out of all the churches I've been to, only the Anglo-Catholic ones have ever had choirs.
I'm glad enough that most Anglo-Catholic churches at least try to have good choirs, Sir Frederick Gore Ouseley having made his enduring mark despite the sad demise in our day of his beloved laboratory, S. Michael's Tenbury, for financial reasons. But according to Bernarr Rainbow's Choral Revival in the Anglican Church, his Anglo-Catholicism was relatively moderate and a bit Johnny-come-lately. The most radical Anglo-Catholics in the mid-19th century believed in singing the psalms, and other parts of the liturgy, in plainsong by the entire congregation. If there was a schola, its role was limited.
In my American experience, furthermore, Episcopalians talk about having good choirs while Presbyterians more often actually do it.
The embarrassment of riches that Chorister describes is unusual. I've certainly never faced it as a choir director. The suggestion of a group that welcomes all comers together with a sub-group of the most expert sounds like a good solution, and there is plenty of various historical precedent for it. But don't underestimate the ability of incompetent people to become competent if they persevere with encouragement.
Choral music must be presented and preserved as an art before it can be justified in public worship as a social activity. Only recently has another aspect of its role as "handmaid of the liturgy" occurred to me: At the heart of the liturgy is the Eucharist, or thanksgiving. Thanksgiving promotes health and long life. An appreciation of beauty is one part of it, or itself an opportunity for gratitude. If something makes us say, "wow, that's beautiful!," the very exclamation is an act of thanksgiving.
May the church arrange for it to be said as often as possible!
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I feel you, MT, but I think superb music has its graces too. What would you say if a well-meaning, perfectly pious old widow gave the ugliest, most tasteless icon in the universe to your church? I don't know where the line is m'self, but there's one in there somewhere.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Choral music must be presented and preserved as an art before it can be justified in public worship as a social activity.
I don't understand this at all. Why does it need to be justified? Orthodox choirs have been singing choral music for 2000 years without the need for its prior preservation as an art.
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I feel you, MT, but I think superb music has its graces too.
I have nothing against superb music. But what is going on in this thread is simple snobbery. When you've got a church of 40 people, waiting around for people who can read music and have 5 years of performance experience or whatever these snobs think is necessary means you're not going to have a choir at all.
I'm perfectly down with auditions for a large choir, and I pity the choir leaders who have to tell someone they can't sing and should bow out. Ours occasionally has to hush people who aren't singing in tune -- it's happened to me too -- and it can't be a fun feeling to have to do that.
But this attitude of perfection, you have to be able to sight read or you shouldn't even open your mouth -- excuse me? It flies in the face of hundreds or thousands of years of choral experience to think only sight readers can sing.
It sounds like we're making the perfect the enemy of the good here. If you typed up the perfectionist comments in this thread and put them in an ad in the church bulletin seeking new choir members, how many volunteers do you think you'd get?
quote:
What would you say if a well-meaning, perfectly pious old widow gave the ugliest, most tasteless icon in the universe to your church? I don't know where the line is m'self, but there's one in there somewhere.
Icons aren't about artistic quality. They're not "art." That's a category error. We have some shudderingly awful ones from the most sappy, saccharine period of 19th century Russian iconography. They're still icons.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Icons aren't about artistic quality. They're not "art." That's a category error. We have some shudderingly awful ones from the most sappy, saccharine period of 19th century Russian iconography. They're still icons.
I wasn't questioning its status as an icon. I was doubting that you would put the most tasteless icon in the universe on the church wall, thus cursing the generations to come with the pious lady's terrible taste.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If we didn't already have an icon of that saint, we probably would.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
*Sigh* Maybe icons are a bad example. What if that well meaning widow donated this lighting fixture to the church? Would you be talking about holy widow's mites then?
Or does the Orthodox Church simply lack well meaning, but completely tasteless people?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That is truly a hideous lamp. I can't imagine anyone donating it to a church, but yeah, if somebody did, it would be turned down. I forget now what this has to do with choir. Nobody who sings in a manner that is analogous to the hideosity of that lamp tries to join the choir, at least I've never heard of it happening at an Orthodox church. And I stand in a position in the church in the US such that people email me crazy things that happen at their churches and ask me to write articles about them.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I don't understand this at all. Why does it need to be justified? Orthodox choirs have been singing choral music for 2000 years without the need for its prior preservation as an art.
All I meant was that "singing choral music" implies standards such as singing certain pitches at certain times-- whether by reading notes or other means. Chorister is wondering what to do with volunteers who are unable to meet these standards. Unfortunately, they are able, despite their good intentions, to ruin the efforts of everyone, and the effect cannot be described as beautiful music. If the word "art" makes you uncomfortable, I guess the word "craft" would do as well here.
[ 31. January 2013, 00:30: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
That's an extreme example, of course. My point was that having a really superb music program might leave out a lot of well meaning singers of middling ability. It just isn't clear to me which one is better- the superb music program or the less-than-stellar take all comers choir. The perfectionists might be on to something after all, is my drift, at least in some situations.
Maybe it's just me. I only have so much "Golly, they tried real hard, praise Jesus!" in me.
[crossposted with Alogon , eh?]
[ 31. January 2013, 00:37: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Alogon:
"Craft" does in fact make more sense than "art" because "art music" has a particular meaning, and church music presented "in concert" out of the context of a sacred service is in fact very jarring to many Orthodox people. But I still don't understand the "prior." Surely in western European history, it was the choirs that presented and preserved the singing. They were prior to any other presentation or preservation?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The perfectionists might be on to something after all, is my drift, at least in some situations.
I guess it depends on what you want. I have heard that in Anglicanism, perfectionism of presentation matters more than spirituality, but I had always thought that was a nasty stereotype, not something that people really took seriously. Now I'm not so sure.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
The perfectionists might be on to something after all, is my drift, at least in some situations.
I guess it depends on what you want. I have heard that in Anglicanism, perfectionism of presentation matters more than spirituality, but I had always thought that was a nasty stereotype, not something that people really took seriously. Now I'm not so sure.
So, you're telling me Orthodox sacred music is only truly beautiful, from a purely technical standpoint, when by sheer luck only accomplished singers sign up? That is the only situation in which this posturing is justified.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I wouldn't say that because I don't think you need "accomplished singers" to make beautiful music.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I wouldn't say that because I don't think you need "accomplished singers" to make beautiful music.
I think music is more beautiful when the musicians know what they are doing, and that this beauty is something worth bringing to Christian worship. If you think that cuts me out of the simple, humble godliness of the Orthodox faith, then whatever. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 31. January 2013, 01:01: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Cryptic
Shipmate
# 16917
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Posted
Here are some vaguely connected thoughts from me (sorry, rushed posting during lunch break). Disclaimer - Anglican, church musician since childhood (but not currently).
My solution would be more than one choir, but this may test the resources of your parish, the patience/sanity/people management skills of your music director and the good grace of existing musicians. I wouldn't want to see any keen person turned away, but the obvious difficulty here is the varying standards of musical ability that being inclusive will bring. That's where the multiple choir thing comes in, grade the repertoire and frequency of performance to the ability level of the group.
I don't see anything wrong with an audition process. The music director has every right to know what level of ability that they are working with - and this is where the patience/people management thing come in - and they should be able to gently and helpfully steer the less skilled into the correct part/choir/group/whatever. There are roles within a church where any keen person can help, and there are roles where there has to be a selection process. I have no problem with a selection process for musicians.
The things that I think are essential for any church musician - the desire to make music in the worship of God, that the music made serves and supports the liturgy, and that the commitment of each musician is there to support the choir.
My list of essentials then naturally leads to my pet hates and killers of church music:
Lack of commitment - the music director should make the level of commitment that is expected quite clear, be that attendance at services, attendances at rehearsals or even, God forbid, practice at home. Don't want to commit? Go somewhere else.
Joining a church choir becuase music or singing is your hobby. I don't deny that there have been many people brought to God through music, but I've met may folk over the years for whom God or the church mean nothing, they're just there beacuase singing is their hobby.
Professionals - I'm afraid to say that too many choirs are using professional singers (I can already feel the flames over this statement...). Not going to go into the reasons for this here, but to my mind many of these people are not keeping church music alive, but killing it. I don't deny that anybody should be able to make a living in their chosen profession, but back to my point above abut the reasons for being in a choir, session singers just don't do it for me. I've heard many wonderful performances by amateur choirs, and too many by professionals that just leave me cold.
That's my two bob's worth...
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Illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 225 | From: Sydney | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
My solution would be more than one choir...
This seems like a good enough solution to me. Have one choir with enough technical expertise to pull off medieval and baroque masterpieces that specializes on choral anthems and the like, and another that specializes in leading congregational singing. Having too good a choir leading the congregational singing is actually a problem in my experience.
[ 31. January 2013, 01:20: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
My suggestion would be the same as aig's suggestion: a larger choir made up of everybody that handles the easier repertoire and a smaller choir/ensemble that handles the more difficult stuff and for which they audition. The auditions for the smaller choir could be yearly and so the ones with less experience and/or skill have something to strive for and a reason to improve their abilities.
I sometimes attend a choral mass at another parish where the music is divided between hymns, an ordinary in Latin and Gregorian chant, and polyphony. The congregation has the opening and closing hymns and are free to join in the ordinary of the mass that is one of the standard Gregorian chant settings like the Missa de Angelis that are within the reach of most people (not that many people join, but still...). The choir handles the propers (introits, communions) as well as motets and other fancy choral pieces that are sung at the offertory and during communion. A few times a year they keep the hymns but the choir takes over the ordinary with a fancy setting by someone like Mozart or da Viadana.
Your choir could do something similar. Have the big choir sing hymns, the ordinary, and easier choral pieces. Use the smaller chamber choir for the fancy stuff. You could balance things throughout the year by relying on accessible but satisfying settings of the eucharist for most Sundays but every so often give the big choir a break and have a more challenging setting for the smaller choir to show their chops.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I would add that parishes ought to look for choir directors that are good at teaching singing and sharpening the skills of choristers.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cryptic:
Professionals - I'm afraid to say that too many choirs are using professional singers (I can already feel the flames over this statement...). Not going to go into the reasons for this here, but to my mind many of these people are not keeping church music alive, but killing it.
It depends on how they are treated. One admired colleague in Piporg-L could barely contain his impatience with parishioners who either begrudged his paying some singers or cold-shouldered those he hired. "Look, these are college kids trying to pay the rent!" And some of them ended up joining the church. Fr. John Andrew at St. Thomas NYC (like his successor from what I see) also was careful to consider his professional choirmen as part of the parish family and regretted his counterparts in other "cardinal parishes of New York" treating them as mere "functionaries." Parishes well-enough off to hire people to attend their services and come under their influence ought to be thankful that they can do so and make the most of it. One recent guest speaker at Holy Apostles' explained that people used to visit a church looking for God and also found a community. Nowadays they visit a church looking for a community and also find God. Being a good enough musician to be paid for it doesn't make one any less in need of a community than anyone else.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
A lot of it depends on the parish. If the parish has a strong choral tradition in which choirs regularly sing polyphony, chant, and other forms of music not written for congregational singing, then it would be sheer madness not to have an auditioned choir. It's not fun when you are not a good singer, trying to sing Haydn's Mass setting for Midnight Mass with everyone else.
If however, you have a parish where the choir simply is seen as a backup for the congregation and the pieces are relatively simple and easy, auditions might not be necessary. Typically, people who volunteer to be choir members would at least carry a tune (most people who can't carry a tune at least are smart enough to figure it's not their gift or talent). With average to decent voices, a good choir master should be able to train a parish choir to sing simple settings and motets reasonably well.
In parishes with 2 main services, typically one service would be a choral service in which the auditioned choir would sing difficult pieces such as polyphony and chant. The second service, usually a service with modern language, would have a small non-auditioned choir singing simple pieces.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I wouldn't say that because I don't think you need "accomplished singers" to make beautiful music.
I think music is more beautiful when the musicians know what they are doing,
Know what they are doing <> accomplished.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It would seem from the attitude displayed here that the true solution would be to hire a professional choir. Clearly amateurs aren't up to snuff, and God hates a cheerful giver, and the widow's mite sucks. Let those who REALLY have money do the giving. Some are teachers, and some are prophets, and some are donors. Why fight it?
You are seriously off the beam mousethief. You need to get out a little bit more.
I've worshipped in Orthodox joints from Linthicum to Sacramento to Shawnee Heights to Anchorage to Park Drive to Rusk Road and waaay beyond.
The choirs, singing the OCA repertoire, in those parishes raised the hair on the back of my neck with their devotion and piety. They induced my sin-sick soul to truly feel the presence of the Triune and Tripersonal God. I was privileged to be a blow-ashore in each place.
It's horse for courses.
As perfect they are and as perfectly apt for their parishes, they wouldn't be able to fulfill the worship-ethos of any of a dozen Anglo-catholic joints. Places which are able to fulfill their mission of worship of the Holy Trinity with disciplined and beautiful music, of its sort.
They, and their piety, is not the less. It is just not apt for some of the parishes described the on this thread.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I'm a bass and I learned to sing in church choirs. No United Church of Canada is seen without a choir, of whatever standard.
John Wesley's Directions for Singing are printed in our hymn book. Those directions are a good place to start.
First, throw out that horrid excuse that reading music is difficult. It isn't. Piano music is complicated because of the speed and versatility you can manage there; voice music is much simpler. In fact your part will only have an octave of notes and the most complicated thing you'll see is a triplet.
John Wesley said everyone can sing; to which I add anyone can read music.
Next, the choir director must have enough authority to let beginner singers know that they need to blend. Quiet works, especially at the start. If you are singing bass like me, you have to practice to ignore the melody and those **** sopranos.
Then you just practice. A lot.
I get the sense that the "Church Choir" as known in North America is not really known across the Pond. I mean an adult choir, of both sexes, singing SATB performing sheet music or SATB arrangements from the hymn book. Gowned of course.
In Canada both the Anglican and the United Church hymn books, both printed in the 1990's, have SATB music in the standard edition.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
It's horse for courses.
See, you're the first person to say this, or to even suggest that the perfectionism required of the Anglo-Catholic choir maybe isn't necessary at every church of every tradition everywhere in the world. Everybody else before has all but suggested that if you aren't Pavarotti you might as well stay home.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I get the sense that the "Church Choir" as known in North America is not really known across the Pond. I mean an adult choir, of both sexes, singing SATB performing sheet music or SATB arrangements from the hymn book. Gowned of course.
That's exactly what our small choir does. But, then, we're not Anglican but URC/Baptist - and URC is a pretty close match to the UCC.
Point is, Nonconformists (not that many have choirs these days) don't have sung liturgies or chants in their services - the choir sings an introit and/or anthem, and leads the congregational singing.
I have seen the same in the Church of Scotland but I don't know how common it is.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I must admit to being rather bewildered by Mousethief's take on the thread - on reading it all through, I can only see reasoned debate and a good range of practical and carefully thought-out suggestions. Perhaps if one has had a run-in on a similar subject before, there is a tendency to be more touchy and to read into remarks something that isn't actually there? Or perhaps there is some 'stirring' going on - if so, it is admirable that people are calmly discussing, rather than rising to the bait.
At the Eucharist, the choir sing exactly the same as the congregation (they are there to lead them) for all the hymns and the sung parts of the Eucharist. There are only three items which the choir sing on their own: the verses of the responsorial psalm (the response is sung by all), the short Gospel Acclamation (which the congregation joins in at the repeat) and the Anthem (which is sung during the administration of Communion). Almost everyone in the church comes to the Eucharist, so they join in a lot with the singing as you would expect. Given current difficulties, it is only the unaccompanied choir-only parts which are exposed and obvious when someone is not singing in tune, particularly if we are singing in unison.
At Evensong, things are slightly different. It is much more the sort of service to which a particular interest-set of the church attends, and expects to join in less and to listen more. A larger part of the Cathedral repertoire is known to these attendees - they would probably attend Cathedral evensong if only one were closer (50 miles). So we are seen as almost the only church in the area to offer this type of service. The music is therefore more demanding than you would expect at the morning Eucharist: regularly different settings of responses, canticles as well as anthems. I think it matters more at this service that the choir is musically competent. I know for myself, when I attend evensong as a member of the congregation not as a singer, that one can gain huge spiritual benefit from listening to others sing the service - it is not a performance when people's souls take part.
Sadly, although some posters have indicated to the contrary, there are some people who are not 'smart' enough to realise that they are not able to sing in tune. And when those people have loud voices, that is when the problem outlined in the OP arises. It has never happened in our choir before, but it has now. You have to deal with a given, not a 'how you'd like it to be'. I guess that's why I'm having to do some adjustment of preconceptions. And thanks to all participants, this discussion is really helping. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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