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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why should the devil have all the best death metal tunes?
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
The BBC are running this story at the moment. I'm intrigued by its growing out of a genre of music that a lot of people associate with Satanism. What do other people feel about alternative forms of churchgoing?
AG
(I can't see another thread on this - if I've been beaten to it, please move appropriately!)
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
The question is, "how uncomfortbale would a hypothetical fan of folk-rock, with, say, the initials T and K in some combination, feel fitting into a church where lots of folk liked death metal?" ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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'Angels and demons dancing in my head,
Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Probably very well. It would presumably depend on how loud the music is and the degree to which it permeates the services, and to what degree the congregation is accepting of all comers rather than those who conform to a particular sub-culture.
From what I'm led to understand, the answers as far as one of the churches mentioned in the article is concerned are (a) not very, (b) not all that much; other genres are in use, and (c) extremely.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
So, how is this different from the regular Protestant programming? "Make them feel at home in church." Different target group, same method, same inevitable fail...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
So, how is this different from the regular Protestant programming? "Make them feel at home in church." Different target group, same method, same inevitable fail...
I suggest you put your head around the door rather than writing stuff off before you know anything about it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd just started one in Eccles,
I was going to add it to the Hell music thread, but found it had just been closed.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
One of the key elements of metal is surely to do with angst, rage, frustration and a good old dose of testosterone? Any Christian stuff I've heard often sounds at odds and from the linked BBC article on the other thread it looks like a cheap corporate branding, but maybe thats me being hyper critical and unfair. This on the other hand is somewhat interesting and along a similar vein, but has a slightly different approach
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
From what I understand, the OotBS has its origins within the Death Metal scene, and lots of members, imagery and decor that's in keeping with that, but has moved beyond being restricted to that particular genre. In particular, it seems to do particularly well with families with children, despite having no dedicated "children's work".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
There's nothing new here. There've been Cowboy Churches in the Mid-West using Country & Western music, various Metal churches in the US too - I remember seeing some on the telly about 20 years ago now.
There have even been some Elvis churches and there's a Jazz one with Coltrane as its patron saint.
These things crop up from time to time.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There's nothing new here. There've been Cowboy Churches in the Mid-West using Country & Western music, various Metal churches in the US too - I remember seeing some on the telly about 20 years ago now.
There have even been some Elvis churches and there's a Jazz one with Coltrane as its patron saint.
These things crop up from time to time.
They do, and until mainstream churches can start being a quarter as welcoming and friendly as many of these startups are, then they'll continue to "crop up", meeting a need for people who'd either never darken a conventional church door, or who have finally given up trying to find acceptance, understanding or meaningful spiritual connection in those mainstream churches.
Snore away. It's fairly easy to do in a virtually empty nave.
[ 14. February 2013, 10:04: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
One of the key elements of metal is surely to do with angst, rage, frustration and a good old dose of testosterone?
So... just like the Psalms, then? ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Lord Jestocost
Shipmate
# 12909
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Posted
An instinctive stumbling block for me would be reconciling statements like "The more dark and twisted the better" with Philippians 4.8. But I'm aware that's probably just my sheltered upbringing, and any Christian ministry should be judged by its fruit rather than its self-definition. If this is making disciples then may their amps ever be set to 11.
Posts: 761 | From: The Instrumentality of Man | Registered: Aug 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Dunno about the Psalms, but it describes me pretty well.
The Rage, Angst and Frustration bits anyway. You'd have to ask Mrs Backslider about the testosterone.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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markporter
Shipmate
# 4276
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Posted
There are so many different priorities to juggle with questions like this:
- What kind of church community is being created and who is welcome?
- What kind of subjectivities and forms of expression is that congregation trying to encourage and why?
- Are there any kinds of meaning in the music inappropriate to the church gathering, if so is there a way of transforming/redeeming something appropriately?
- How does the music relate to the kinds of things that churchgoers are used to and comfortable with? Are there ways of engaging those not normally at home in this environment so that they find a way in?
- How important is it to welcome the musics (or aspects of the musics) of churchgoers' (and non churchgoers) regular lives in order to fully welcome them and all they represent into worship?
I think we're often too quick to adopt something wholesale without trying to engage with what it represents and how it or us might be transformed in the process of welcoming it into the life of the church.
So, I think that it could be incredibly important for the church to engage with death metal, but that means actually taking the effort to deeply engage rather than simply saying yes or no to it.
Posts: 1309 | From: Oxford | Registered: Mar 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by markporter:
There are so many different priorities to juggle with questions like this:
- What kind of church community is being created and who is welcome?
- What kind of subjectivities and forms of expression is that congregation trying to encourage and why?
- Are there any kinds of meaning in the music inappropriate to the church gathering, if so is there a way of transforming/redeeming something appropriately?
- How does the music relate to the kinds of things that churchgoers are used to and comfortable with? Are there ways of engaging those not normally at home in this environment so that they find a way in?
- How important is it to welcome the musics (or aspects of the musics) of churchgoers' (and non churchgoers) regular lives in order to fully welcome them and all they represent into worship?
I think we're often too quick to adopt something wholesale without trying to engage with what it represents and how it or us might be transformed in the process of welcoming it into the life of the church.
So, I think that it could be incredibly important for the church to engage with death metal, but that means actually taking the effort to deeply engage rather than simply saying yes or no to it.
I have sufficient knowledge of the set up to be able to address some of these questions.
As does the church's website at http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/
1. a Christian community of whoever wants to be part of it.
2. can you unpack the question for thicko scientists like me who don't do long humanities type words?
3. much of the music used in services is actually instrumental. Where it's lyrical, (a) it mostly isn't actually death metal - a range of genres is employed, and (b) yes, it's appropriate.
4. it's certainly no more alien to regular conventional churchgoers than conventional church music is to much of the population. It's not like there's wall to wall death metal at high volume. I think the article overdoes the "death metal" bit. It's not a heavy metal church. It is a church for people alienated by conventional church culture; the pioneer minister happened to be a death metal musician and therefore that's the alienated subculture he knows best and how it began.
5. it's more about the people who form the community using artistic (i.e. musical) forms that they can relate to. Trying to second guess what other people might like isn't a brilliant idea.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Everyone knows that blues is the real “Devil’s music”.
That metal rubbish is just kids playing around. Some of those old blues guys would scare them witless.
Altogether now…
Going down to the crossroads, tried to flag a ride…
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Should add to answer 1 - "Yes, even Deano. As long as he behaves himself" ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil to be able to play a guitar that way; and Antonio Stradavari before him with his violin!
Jokes aside, I think it does raise an important question about welcome in churches which has been hinted at further up thread. If we go down the route of churches catering for differing groups it can create little islands of like minded and can possibly dissolve community which I think has to do with how we understand and cope with difference. Seems to me that this is one of the greatest challenges facing the church today in many ways, and groups like this may be a symptom of the sickness.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
The title and thrust of the article is unfortunate, in a way. The OthBS does not cater to a group - or rather it does, but that group is a diverse collection having in common only being hacked off/rejected by/weirded out by conventional church offerings.
It's probably no secret by now that I'm one of the OotBS' regular attenders. So I can report that, for example, last Sunday's recorded music ranged from ambient electro (albeit with a vaguely metally tonality) to chant (I unfortunately was put in mind of the monks singing "Pie Jesu" in Holy Grail and nearly got the giggles); I don't recall any death metal.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil to be able to play a guitar that way; and Antonio Stradavari before him with his violin!
Not him. That rumour was about another Italian fiddler with a long name ending in "i". Feel free to Google for enlightenment
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Pat Boone covers Ozzy
The lyrics, when clearly enunciated, actually contain a bit of social commentary that many Christians would find agreeable, if slightly trite. The usual bemoaning of modern social pressures, media manipulation etc.
Something I've noticed is that most of the really iconic "satanic" metal lyrics don't praise Satan, they just focus on him. The narrator of Iron Maiden's Number Of The Beast, for example, isn't pleased by the diabolical things he witnesses, in fact he wants to stop them.
[ 14. February 2013, 12:59: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I can see your point Karl, but I'm still snoring ...
But it is an issue. As both Fletcher and yourself have identified. I'm still looking for a niche church. A grumpy-old-git-who-has-seen-it-all-before-friendly church.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become. And while I do mean this in a religious sense, one can say this on purely psychological grounds, without believing in any of it. This is just not how humans work. Of course, you can make a philosophical point by looking at a cheese sandwich and saying "This is extraordinary." But beyond the intellectual point this will not stick. For worship, long term, you need something awe inspiring that appears to have God's sanction.
This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I think we've been here before. All churches are, IME, niche churches. There's no escaping it. I've yet to find a church that isn't of a particular type, appealing to particular types of people. At least places like the OotBS are recognising that there are plenty of people whom the existing niche churches do not and cannot reach and are creating spaces for them - for us, for me, indeed.
Take my local parish church (Warning - Les Dawson joke approaching: "Yes, take it, please...") where we spent some nine years (All Saints threads passim) trying to fit in. We didn't, not because the congregation was unwelcoming or rejecting, but because we weren't their niche - and their niche, in a village of 2000 souls of all ages, was elderly people of a liturgical bent - and this was reflected in the congrgation, many of whom were from outside the parish. What they had in common was being elderly and of a liturgical bent.
The one size fits all parish church for the people of the parish model is dead, for good or for ill. Society is so diversified that I struggle to imagine that a non-niche church is even possible, and I certainly can't imagine what it would look like.
That's the current state of my ruminations over this subject over the last few years and months. I was at one point firmly wedded to the parish principle, but I think that horse has long bolted, been tracked down and rendered into a Lidl ready meal.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become. And while I do mean this in a religious sense, one can say this on purely psychological grounds, without believing in any of it. This is just not how humans work. Of course, you can make a philosophical point by looking at a cheese sandwich and saying "This is extraordinary." But beyond the intellectual point this will not stick. For worship, long term, you need something awe inspiring that appears to have God's sanction.
This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.
In which case, IngoB, let me set your mind at rest. The sense of awe as I perceive it in what is done at the OotBS is at least equal to and often exceeds that of other forms, and we are as sanctioned as any other CofE setup, with an ordained priest and the Eucharist celebrated using the forms set out and authorised. Not quite sure what more you'd like. Thing is, though, this "awe" thing is, I'd suggest, almost entirely subjective. But that may be the point here - and the reason that dissatisfaction is present with traditional forms - although they're intended to convey awe, they may fail to do so because that sense of awe is an interaction between the forms themselves and the cultural background of the awestruck, or indeed non-awestruck. As that cultural background changes and varies, so will the forms that generate awe.
Or so it seems to me. Running to stay still, perhaps.
[ 14. February 2013, 13:39: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Tallis Acres
Apprentice
# 17553
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Posted
I agree with IngoB here to some extent.
I am sorry but the christian rock and many of the modern "happy clappy" (sorry-found the term on SW)does less than inspire me.
However, I don't think that Latin and Greek are essential and unless I am mistaken, the RCC does not claim so either.
Neithe Tallis nor Byrd wrote exclusively in Latin. Hanacpachap cussicuinin was written in the Quechua language of Peru.
But Heavy Metal is, IMHO, not appropriate for worship.
But if it works for other people, why not?
[ 14. February 2013, 13:52: Message edited by: Tallis Acres ]
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thank you St Jude for favours granted
Posts: 5 | Registered: Feb 2013
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I wish it well. When i trained to be spiritual director it was pointed out that not everyone finds God in silence and stillness. I experienced a meditation session where we had to dance to very loud music. Although it was entirely out of my comfort zone, it touched me.
Heh - neither really would do much for me.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become. And while I do mean this in a religious sense, one can say this on purely psychological grounds, without believing in any of it. This is just not how humans work. Of course, you can make a philosophical point by looking at a cheese sandwich and saying "This is extraordinary." But beyond the intellectual point this will not stick. For worship, long term, you need something awe inspiring that appears to have God's sanction.
This does not mean that there cannot be any "local colour" or "adaptation to circumstances". There is nothing intrinsically evil about "youth masses" or "folk masses" or whatever. But the question is whether the differences to a normal mass are geared toward maintaining sanctioned awe in a more appropriate way, or whether they are just attempts to please the current crowd. And so in practice most of these attempts are really misguided.
But on what basis is, say, Gregorian plainchant in Latin 'sanctioned' but the St Louis Jesuits or some other contemporary Catholic worship music not?
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tallis Acres:
I am sorry but the christian rock and many of the modern "happy clappy" (sorry-found the term on SW)does less than inspire me.
But that's the thing, it's about what inspires different people, and people are different.
I've almost never felt inspired by music in church. I'm very aware that my tastes in music are very different to most peoples'. IngoB can tell me that I should be inspired by some kind of awe-inspiring traditional mass, but I'm sorry, it doesn't do anything for me. Nor does Jesus is my boyfriend pop-crap in more contemporary churches.
The thing is, music in churches is generally created as the lowest common denominator, because it has to be 'acceptable' to everyone, like musak. It can't really offend or be too edgy, because that will just alienate people.
I know there are a lot of people out there that love 'worship' music, or love traditional hymnal worship. It's so damn easy for them, because there are so many churches that they can pop into and feel right at home in during the worship.
But for people like me, who find a lot of worship music grating, and traditional music boring, but love music nevertheless, church attendance can be a right struggle. I go despite, not because.
I quite like metal, so I'd probably like the meetings at that church, but really, for me, the genre of music is extremely low on the scale of importance of what church is. I'd be much more interested in what the community is like in terms of living out a social gospel, loving each other, teaching and learning, and so on. So, although it would be nice, I guess I'll just have to live with being bored for large parts of Sunday mornings, which I've pretty much come to terms with. Same as the fact that it's just not worth listening to most music radio stations, because I just don't like pop, and 90% of what they play is pop.
But it would be nice if people who DO like the stuff served up in churches had a bit more sympathy for those of us that don't. For us, sacrifice of worship is an apt phrase.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
goperryrevs - we did that until the children started to grow up. It's much more of an issue for them that both traditional and contemporary church music was a turn off for them. For myself, I can quite go along with the former.
I agree that music genre isn't that important. It's worth restating that notwithstanding the article slant the OotBS is not a "heavy metal church". Actually, our services don't involve congregational singing at all; we use music of a range of genres in the same way that TV programme makers do - as a background to enhance the action taking place, which may be the movements and speaking of the Eucharist service, or film montages and clips, according to what's been put together.
Liking metal would probably more put you on the wavelength of some of the more exotic members of the congregation than put you in stead for liking the meetings. The church is much more focused on the things you mention as valuing rather than the music genres of its meetings
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Dark Knight
Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become.
It seems to me that you are trying to make an argument here. For it to work, the second sentence above needs to logically follow the first.
It doesn't.
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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
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Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
Bread and wine are both fairly ordinary.
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Bread and wine are both fairly ordinary.
Oh I don't know. Those flying-saucers-without-any-sherbert-in-them and that not-quite-sherry wine are pretty extraordinary
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Why inevitable fail? And how is it different from, say, the idea of a folk Mass?
For something to be holy it must be hagos (Greek) / sacer (Latin), i.e., a matter of religious awe, as well as hosios (Greek) / sancitus (Latin), i.e., sanctioned by God. The more "everyday" or "normal" or "according to typical taste" one tries to make a religious gathering, the less holy it will become.
It seems to me that you are trying to make an argument here. For it to work, the second sentence above needs to logically follow the first.
It doesn't.
Quite. The inability of the everyday/normal is why we use only the finest pastries and exotic delights for the Eucharist, and why God became incarnate in the form of the resplendent Prince of the Ostriches. Wait, no, that can't be right...
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Heretic! Blasphemer! All True Believers™ know - not just believe but know - that He is Prince of the Peacocks in His Incarnate form.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
The reason Milton wrote in fetters when he wrote of Angels & God, and at liberty when of Devils & Hell, is because he was a true Poet and of the Devils party without knowing it.
William Blake, "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell"
Seems relevant to the topic...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
A plausible mistake in Blake's time. Since then...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The one size fits all parish church for the people of the parish model is dead, for good or for ill. Society is so diversified that I struggle to imagine that a non-niche church is even possible, and I certainly can't imagine what it would look like.
That's a bit OTT, isn't it? Certainly in the RCC parish churches remain the norm, and they remain restricted in how niche they can get by norms. I wouldn't exactly say that they are thriving, but I don't think that they are dying faster than their CofE counterparts - niche or non-niche - on average.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
In which case, IngoB, let me set your mind at rest. The sense of awe as I perceive it in what is done at the OotBS is at least equal to and often exceeds that of other forms, and we are as sanctioned as any other CofE setup, with an ordained priest and the Eucharist celebrated using the forms set out and authorised. Not quite sure what more you'd like.
Well, OK then. I'm not in fact hung up about liturgy as such all that much personally. My personal preference is for traditional worship mostly because I find that congenial to contemplation, which is my primary spiritual mode. Unlike some, I see liturgy as a means to an end. Perhaps I will indeed check out a OotBS at some time, why not. The only condition would be that no offence would be taken at me not taking communion. That I cannot do in a non-RC church.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
As that cultural background changes and varies, so will the forms that generate awe.
Hmm, not so sure about that one. What I would rather say is that our improved technological capabilities and the incessant search by entertainment industry to "wow" us have started to tease apart "psychophysical awe" from "spiritual awe". Once upon a time a full-blown high mass simply was grand theatre, about as much "wow" as one could get unless the king was in town. But nowadays that's more an acquired taste and the US mega-churches show what extremes one has to go to to still approach "spiritual awe" via the psychophysical "wow" route. But in a way that is also a chance to focus on other things.
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
But on what basis is, say, Gregorian plainchant in Latin 'sanctioned' but the St Louis Jesuits or some other contemporary Catholic worship music not?
Hmm, the songs I sing each Sunday are hardly Gregorian plainchant (and yes, I usually worship at a normal RC parish). Now, in my opinion there are good reasons why Gregorian plainchant ought to have pride of place in Church music. I'm not a musician though, and I approach this from a prayer / contemplation perspective (which includes by the way experience in Zen chanting...). That unfortunately means my "reasons" are more experiential than rational hypotheses. But anyway, practically speaking the "sanctioned" musical repertoire certainly has some flexibility.
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
IngoB can tell me that I should be inspired by some kind of awe-inspiring traditional mass, but I'm sorry, it doesn't do anything for me.
How many have you visited? But anyway, if you approach a traditional mass along typical Protestant ideas of "vibrant community spirit", then that is quite likely to be a fail. It's just not trying to do that. Same with the Gregorian chant. While I find that musically enjoyable (not excessively so, I'm more likely to listen to "Indie Rock", "Big Beat" and "Irish Folk" privately), that's not what it is about.
quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
But it would be nice if people who DO like the stuff served up in churches had a bit more sympathy for those of us that don't. For us, sacrifice of worship is an apt phrase.
It's been six years now since I last regularly attended a mass that was to my liking. The most I can say about the last six years of Sundays is that I was positively disgusted only about a quarter of the time.
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
It seems to me that you are trying to make an argument here. For it to work, the second sentence above needs to logically follow the first. It doesn't.
Well, congratulations if your everyday is that holy.
quote:
Originally posted by Waterchaser:
Bread and wine are both fairly ordinary.
Consecrated bread and wine however are not. And even in the modern RC mass, you will not be left in doubt about that.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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markporter
Shipmate
# 4276
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have sufficient knowledge of the set up to be able to address some of these questions.
As does the church's website at http://www.theorderoftheblacksheep.com/
Ah, I should have followed some links. I was responding directly to the Title/OP/discussion rather than reading around.
quote:
1. a Christian community of whoever wants to be part of it.
Ok, so that presumably means that the music isn't trying to gear itself directly at a specific subculture and thereby isolate itself from broader forms of community
quote:
2. can you unpack the question for thicko scientists like me who don't do long humanities type words?
Sure. I simply mean that music nurtures specific kinds of feelings, specific kinds of way of feeling/relating to the world and that the question of how that relates to the church's task in spiritual formation is important.
quote:
3. much of the music used in services is actually instrumental. Where it's lyrical, (a) it mostly isn't actually death metal - a range of genres is employed, and (b) yes, it's appropriate.
I was trying to point more to the ways in which non-lyrical content is generally meaningful in some way (however vague), and so that aspect is as worth considering as whether the lyrics have been changed over. How does that kind of meaning translate. It sounds, from what you say, that this kind of thing has been fairly well considered though.
quote:
4. it's certainly no more alien to regular conventional churchgoers than conventional church music is to much of the population. It's not like there's wall to wall death metal at high volume. I think the article overdoes the "death metal" bit. It's not a heavy metal church. It is a church for people alienated by conventional church culture; the pioneer minister happened to be a death metal musician and therefore that's the alienated subculture he knows best and how it began.
Sounds good to me
quote:
5. it's more about the people who form the community using artistic (i.e. musical) forms that they can relate to. Trying to second guess what other people might like isn't a brilliant idea.
True. It's worth having a conversation with them though about how they relate to the music that the church is using and making sure that they can find ways into it and understanding what it's about.
Posts: 1309 | From: Oxford | Registered: Mar 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd just started one in Eccles,
I was going to add it to the Hell music thread, but found it had just been closed.
Darn. I knew there was a genre or two we'd missed in the concert programme...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Most of the 'traditional' music that certain people adore and find inspiring was, at some point in time, weird new-fangled stuff that was considered grossly improper by someone else. It's all just a question of which century you're living in.
About the only type I can't say that for with confidence is Gregorian chant, because it was essentially the first kind of music to be written down (NB not necessarily the only kind of music that existed at the time - writing it down had to do with standardisation). But it certainly wouldn't surprise me if a 4th century Christian, upon hearing 9th century plainsong, would be shocked and horrified at the music people were claiming to worship God with.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
This isn't exactly my cup of tea, but it might be interesting for those involved. A few things bothered me, though.
quote:
"We want it to be as uncomfortable as possible for people who'd go to an ordinary church," [Mark Broomhead, the vicar of the church in question] says, speaking about his new ministry.
This, ISTM, betrays an extremely childish attitude. Why not rather make it as comfortable as possible for people who'd like go to that particular church? There can, of course, be a causal relationship here: What I might find extremely uncomfortable, might be comfortable for the parishoners of this particular church. But to phrase it like this makes that vicar sound like a brat.
quote:
The service itself lasts just a few minutes. A short sermon about Lent is interspersed with film clips and an electro soundtrack. The congregation sink into bean bags instead of filing into pews, and afterwards bread and wine are passed around at leisure. Informality reigns.
Just a few minutes? So the vicare consecrates the bread and wine before the parishoners come, or do they just 'snack' on unconsecrated bread and wine?
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
k-mann - you assume that reporters, when they quote people, actually report what they said.
They don't.
I imagine that Mark isn't terribly pleased how that was reported. What I understand he meant was exactly what you say - making it - comfortable's not the word, but it'll have to do - for us inevitably does make it uncomfortable for people who don't feel uncomfortable in the conventional churches where we do.
If you see what I mean.
I was interested that the service "took just a few minutes" because I was there and it was about half an hour, and includes the Liturgy of the Eucharist, done in the service by the priest in the normal manner. The sharing is very much part of the service, not after it, and the service concluded in the normal manner after communion. The reporter may have mistaken the reflective atmosphere during the distribution for the service having ended.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I would agree with Karl to an extent that most churches incline towards the niche ... but in smaller towns and rural areas they have to at least try to be all things to all people. I'd also suggest that RC parishes tend to be more working class - on the whole - than Anglican and Free Church ones - other than particular groups like the Pentecostals.
I used to be part of a Baptist church plant - where I was very happy, on the whole - which set out to be 'relevant'. What that meant in effect was that it became relevant to the core members ie. 'people like us' Guardian-reading, university educated professionals in social work, the caring professions, teachers, lecturers and the like.
Sure, it was pretty arty and inclined towards the post-modern to a certain extent but it was very much a 30-somethings church - with a small number of slightly older people. There were a handful of us in our 40s and an even smaller number in their 50s or 60s. It worked well - for us - but arguably wasn't that effective in gaining new/unchurched members - although it did do that to some extent although fairly temporarily in some instances.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's probably all part of a 'disturb the comfortable and comfort the disturbed' philosophy - sounds clever but, taken to extremes, a dangerous policy when you lose the ones who do want to come to church but don't actually gain the others. It sounds like a great addition to a varied church programme, though, if time and presonnel resources permit, and doesn't sound unlike the youth church housegroups that some churches have.
Interesting that the BBC news find it worthy of their front page, as they did with the 'atheist church' - perhaps hunting out unusual churches will become a (mainstream) newsworthy feature? If so, that's got to be good.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Actually, our services don't involve congregational singing at all; we use music of a range of genres in the same way that TV programme makers do - as a background to enhance the action taking place, which may be the movements and speaking of the Eucharist service, or film montages and clips, according to what's been put together.
[Having read the article and looked at the website] I'm curious, how do you stop this becoming just another packaged experience (and as such a form of entertainment).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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