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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tell me about Francis
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
For some reason I've been thinking about Francis of Assisi recently. I assume that most of the well-known stories about him (talking to the animals, swapping clothes with a beggar) are imaginative hagiography, but though we may be short on accurate information about his precise words and deeds, it seems easy enough to get an impression of the man.
He believed in poverty and simplicity, seems to have been concerned to communicate vividly, and to have attempted peace making during the Fifth Crusade. Founding an order was a controversial move, and I have the impression that Francis and the Franciscans and the Poor Clares were under suspicious scrutiny for a long time. His influence and his movement was a significant attempt at nudging the church.
It's tempting to project all my personal interests onto him and call him an anti-clerical, communitarian, non-violent, feminist, environmentalist, proto-Baptist liberation theologian and poet. And birder. Shame he didn't also have the chance to cycle and play the accordion as I'm sure he'd have loved both, maybe both at once which is still beyond me.
What does he mean for you?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quite a Holy Punk, and a thorn in the flesh of the prevailing Zeitgeist when he lived.
And I too love the fact that he was a twitcher.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... an anti-clerical, communitarian, non-violent, feminist, environmentalist, proto-Baptist liberation theologian and poet ...
... would be a very good way of ending up on top of a pile of burning sticks in the 13th century. I don't think we can say those things about Francis. Or if we can, then we have to say a whole bunch of other stuff too.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I don't think,, to be fair, that the Medieval Catholic Church burned poets, at least not qua poets.
Someone once observed that it wasn't to big a stretch to imagine a scenario where the Waldensians were a mendicant order in the Catholic Church and the Franciscans ended up as a little known Protestant church in Northern Italy.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... an anti-clerical, communitarian, non-violent, feminist, environmentalist, proto-Baptist liberation theologian and poet ...
... would be a very good way of ending up on top of a pile of burning sticks in the 13th century. I don't think we can say those things about Francis. Or if we can, then we have to say a whole bunch of other stuff too.
Well, go on, then!
And how far was he from the burning sticks?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
From what I understand, Francis was quite careful to be humble and respectful to the pope and his bishops. Some later generations of Franciscans, not so much. So eventually the church managed to tame down the Fransiscan revolution into something conforming to the larger church.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
hatless, my friend Fr Augustine Thompson has recently written a new biography of Francis. It rather gives the lie to the morning-star of the green movement, RSPCA, Liberation Theology,...pick your own favourite right-on cause. I'm not a mediaevalist but I'm told its a pretty good biography.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Perhaps one of the things that is interesting about St. Francis is that whilst he was an orthodox Catholic his appeal reaches beyond that constituency. Part of this is no doubt wishful thinking - Innocent III would hardly have endorsed Francis had he not been on message. But part of it is something of the magnetism of the man himself. Years ago Tony Blair made a speech denouncing the 'forces of conservatism'. The Telegraph responded with a very funny leading article with 50 statements that, if one agreed with most of them, identified you as a member of said forces. Two of them went something like this:
34: Whatever you think of his politics you can't help liking Ken Clarke.
35: You can't say that about Peter Mandelson, can you?
This may be grossly unfair to the Colour Out Of Space but the point is a fairly obvious one. As with politics, so with religion. Some people appeal beyond the boundaries of their own faith. I think that says something profound about Francis even if we have to reluctantly conclude that he can't be co-opted as the regimental goat for the Bicycling Accordionist Tendency.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
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Posted
And Frankie was anything but an anti-clerical. He was supposed to have said "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel."
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
For me, it's the saying Preach the gospel always, and if necessary, use words.
I know this is only 'attributed' to St. Francis and may not have been by him (or not in that form) but it's the phrase which most springs to mind after his well-known Dr. Doolittle image.
Some of the attributed, and misattributed, sayings are listed here.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
The European Province of the (Anglican) Third Order of the Society of St Francis gives a biography of St Francis.
My favourite story is that of St Damiano, where St Francis heard a voice saying 'rebuild my church for it is falling into ruins' which at first he took literally, rebuilding the church at St Damiano, but which he then saw was a much wider call than that. The Canticle of the Creatures is important too. That as well as the story about asking the sparrows to be silent is where a lot of the environmental stuff comes from.
His break with his father (stripping naked in front of the bishop so as to retain nothing of his father's) and adoption of poverty strikes me as responding to the challenge of Jesus to the rich young ruler, though he renounced more than sold. And that was the heart of his rule -- living by the gospel. I'm still a young tertiary (professed a couple of years now) and working out what being a Franciscan means.
Carys
[ 25. March 2013, 22:09: Message edited by: Carys ]
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
... an anti-clerical, communitarian, non-violent, feminist, environmentalist, proto-Baptist liberation theologian and poet ...
... would be a very good way of ending up on top of a pile of burning sticks in the 13th century. I don't think we can say those things about Francis. Or if we can, then we have to say a whole bunch of other stuff too.
Well, go on, then!
And how far was he from the burning sticks?
Francis himself was too canny a politician to get so much as a sniff of the pyre; but some of his brethren in the next generation or two after his weren't so lucky. A fabulously rich Church doesn't take kindly to being told it should become poor. Even less so when such preaching stirs the Great Unwashed to rebellious mutterings.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think seeing St Francis as a proto-Baptist is wishful thinking ... although I can think of some Baptists I've known who've embodied elements of what we generally see as the Franciscan ideal.
Call me a fence-sitter but I'm always wary of any attempts to co-opt people who seem to transcend their particular tradition (or perhaps embody it more perfectly?) into our own ...
But imitation is the sincerest form of flattery ...
I can understand why St Francis has both been called the 'First Christian' and 'The Last Christian.'
The question I'm tempted to ask, is, where am I between that first and last notch on the continuum?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mary LA
Shipmate
# 17040
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Posted
Interesting review I bookmarked a couple of months ago -- Joan Acocella in the New Yorker on The Radical Vision of St Francis of Assisi, looking at biographies by Vauchez and Augustine Thompson as mentioned by Trisagion.
The Radical Vision of St Francis of Assisi
Years ago I read the medieval Little Flowers of St Francis, many charming and apocryphal stories. Many of the 'legends' about Francis and animals may have originated there.
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“I often wonder if we were all characters in one of God's dreams.”
― Muriel Spark
Posts: 499 | From: Africa | Registered: Apr 2012
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I don't think you could argue that he was anti-clerical, but he wasn't afraid to make a challenge either - in a peculiar, round about sort of way. He's recorded a few times as criticizing clergy quite strongly for approaching the altar with a library in one hand. He seems to have had a great concern that the church could fall into the trap of complicating or obfuscating the simplicity of the Gospel. But his deepest criticisms are not vocalized as such, they are shown through his actions. Obviously there are his actions towards the poor which undoubtedly caused discomfort to the church and very public shaming. For instance, imagine someone today having an 'alternative service' for people you had deliberately excluded, in the grounds of your church.
It's worth noting that in his day - and according to some records - that he was a dreadful preacher, and he seems to have been aware of it himself. In this respect he seems to know that his mission lies in practical action more than in teaching. I think it might be in Celano, but I'm not sure, but there are two versions of the story about the preaching to the birds. In one he has been heckled out of the pulpit for his interminable sermon so he preaches it to the birds outside, as he believes that God's creatures should hear it. As soon as he begins the birds fly off and at that moment he has his eureka moment about his preaching ability, and a humbling.
In other instances he does actions that embarrass the church; the famous incident when he turns up to the Vatican in a sack and enters by the back door and then acts like a court jester in front of the Pope. He portrays himself as a holy fool, yet is anything but. He's vehemently opposed to the practice of buying indulgences and rejects the payments made by entire towns to the Vatican, and in a coup begs for a very special indulgence - that anyone who gazes upon the town of Assisi be granted an indulgence. It was a clever and practical way of breaking the financial grip of the Vatican.
All in all, he's a complex character, but maybe because of that he tends to be 'adopted' for various causes.
[ 27. March 2013, 09:17: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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