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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: unwatchable "great" films
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That said, it's pretty hard to deny that they struck some impressive sparks in their career. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albatross!
Actually, that's one of the skits they reverse bowdlerized on the Drury Lane album.
JONES: Do you get wafers with it?
CLEESE: Course you don't get [adjectival form of slang word copulation] wafers with it ya [extremely obscene insult for a male homosexual]!!
It really didn't add much to the script, beyond, as I say, making the live audience roar with laughter.
By the way, do you happen to have any idea what that skit is supposed to be referencing? I know a lot of Python alludes to undergraduate in-jokes and arcane erstwhile current events(eg. the gangster in Pirahna Brothers who claimed to have laid Stanley Baldwin was based on a real criminal who had affairs with cabinet-ministers), but I've never been able to figure out what Albatross was all about. Something to do with the Ancient Mariner, I suppose, but why is Cleese dressed as a nurse?
quote: Well yes and no; there's more to MoL than Live Organ Transplants and Mr Creosote. And I'm afraid to say I find both of those funny anyway. Especially the former; it's the "I told him not to fill in that form, but he wouldn't be told!" stuff that always makes me roll around on the floor kicking my little legs in the air.
Yeah, I don't absolutely dislike those skits either. But still, on the whole, much of MOL strikes me as a failed attempt at doing Mel Brooks. And that's being charitable.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by lilBuddha: Blasphemer!
God, that's brilliant. The guy playing the bishop does a perfect rendition of the real bishop(can't recall his name) from the original debate.
Satire ABOUT satire is always tricky to pull off, but that skit did it perfectly. In the same vein, this old National Lampoon parody of Mad Magazine was fairly clever as well.
-------------------- I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Never, ever, ever watch live Python. It is abysmal. It isn't simply the non-sequitur vulgarity, their timing is bloody awful. The Hollywood Bowl performance is a perfect example. They seem to be phoning in their performance and the reason the audience laughs is they know the joke beforehand. If that performance had been their introduction to the world, it would have also been their finale.
As for the Mel Brooks comment, I disagree and would retort that Mel Brooks is often a failed attempt at doing Mel Brooks.
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Oh my gosh , I nearly forgot ..... The DaVinci Code
Unless it's up-thread somewhere .
Did manage to watch some of it between slumber . Poor old Hanksy was handed a proper turkey with that one . ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by scuffleball: A bit off topic as it's a TV programme, but around here if you're highbrow you're "supposed" to find Monty Python funny. I just don't get it at all.
My view has always been that Python, like Gaul, is divided into three parts. There is funny stuff, there is material that isn't funny but had merit otherwise and then there is utterly pathetic, self-indulgent guff.
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson: [QUOTE] By the way, do you happen to have any idea what that skit is supposed to be referencing? I know a lot of Python alludes to undergraduate in-jokes and arcane erstwhile current events(eg. the gangster in Pirahna Brothers who claimed to have laid Stanley Baldwin was based on a real criminal who had affairs with cabinet-ministers), but I've never been able to figure out what Albatross was all about. Something to do with the Ancient Mariner, I suppose, but why is Cleese dressed as a nurse?
Somehow I think you are missing the point here...
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Firenze
 Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
And I think this thread has wandered off the point somewhat.
Can I suggest a separate thread for Is Python funny?
Meanwhile, back to celluloid turkeys.
Firenze Heaven Host
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Ok, definitely not a "great" film, but I have this perverse urge to make Roger Ebert roll over in his grave:
Beyond the Valley of the Dolls
What. The hell. Was he thinking?
Kel//too soon? ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kelly Alves: Ok, definitely not a "great" film, but I have this perverse urge to make Roger Ebert roll over in his grave:
Beyond the Valley of the Dolls
What. The hell. Was he thinking?
Kel//too soon?
Well, factor in that it's a Russ Meyer film, so it's arguably meant to be tongue-in-cheek.
In Ebert's decidedly thumbs-down review of Caligula, he wrote, by way of exonerating himself on charges of prudery, that he has nothing against erotic movies, and mentioned as an example "the pop-comic absurdities of Russ Meyer". Which leads me to think he shares the view that Meyer's films are meant as parody.
Mildly risque link to the Ebert site
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I know it was supposed to be parody. it was still ghastly, Ye gods, that band. The squicky predatory Leonard Nimoy look alike. The Cadillac scene. Jeez I was so appalled I had to watch it four or five more times to just immerse myself in disgust.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Ye gods, that band.
Actually, one of the few things I recall from that film IS the name of the band, the Carrie Nations, which was clever, albeit in a ham-fisted, Terry Southern sort of a way.
Also, the narrator's monologue at the end, where he goes on and on bombastically about what lessons the girls all learned from their adventures. Possibly a send-up of "redeeming social value" in nudie movies.
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson:
Also, the narrator's monologue at the end, where he goes on and on bombastically about what lessons the girls all learned from their adventures. Possibly a send-up of "redeeming social value" in nudie movies.
You're right, that was priceless. And it went on for flipping ever.
May have to watch yet again just to stoke my outrage. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) [ 20. April 2013, 05:19: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Chorister
 Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
'Revelation' would make a good horror film, what with all those Apocalyptic end-times scenarios.
Meanwhile, we just have to make do with 'The Passion' - I haven't been able to bring myself to watch that yet.
-------------------- Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
[Keryg thread idea] "Did eschatological writings serve the same function as horror film/ lit does today, and if so, what exactly is that function?" [ 20. April 2013, 18:44: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Chorister: 'Revelation' would make a good horror film, what with all those Apocalyptic end-times scenarios.
'Revelation' would make a great bad movie! I don't think it could turn out any other way.
I suppose 'Revelation - The Musical' might fly though. [ 20. April 2013, 18:59: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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LeRoc
 Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote: 'Revelation' would make a good horror film, what with all those Apocalyptic end-times scenarios.
Wikipedia lists at least 22 films based on Revelation. I think A Thief in the Night and Left Behind are the most well-known (not commenting on the quality of those films).
-------------------- I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
What we need is George Romero to tackle the subject....
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kelly Alves: What we need is George Romero to tackle the subject....
The Romero-produced remake of Dawn Of The Dead used Johnny Cash's Revelation-esque song When The Man Comes Around for its credit sequence.
"It's Alpha and Omega's Kingdom Come..."
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
"Left Behind". I got a fit of the giggles watching that at a church away weekend a lot of years ago. I remembered a Tony Campolo one liner. "i'm so pre-millennial I don't eat post toasties for breakfast". That set me off. Had to leave the room to avoid spoiling the enjoyment of those who were into it ....
The hardest part was dealing tactfully with the expressions of concern for my health afterwards ...
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: "Left Behind". I got a fit of the giggles watching that at a church away weekend a lot of years ago. I remembered a Tony Campolo one liner. "i'm so pre-millennial I don't eat post toasties for breakfast". That set me off. Had to leave the room to avoid spoiling the enjoyment of those who were into it ....
The hardest part was dealing tactfully with the expressions of concern for my health afterwards ...
I have to ask. Was this being shown as exotica, light relief, or on the assumption that everybody was supposed to believe in the rapture?
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
New thread! make a new thread!
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
OK folks. Gentle nudge back on track away from the Book of Revelation to those unwatchable classics. Or start a new thread as Kelly suggests.
Ta.
Ariel Heaven Host
My parents used to say "The Blue Max" was the most boring film they'd even seen. I could add the mercifully unmemorable one with Steve McQueen as a racing driver, whatever that was called, though the driving/flight/seemingly endless chase sequences in the Star Wars films could usefully be cut down, or out, IMO.
Strangely enough, though I'm a fan of Leslie Howard, and have enjoyed the other films I've seen, "The Scarlet Pimpernel", which is probably his best-known film, is one I never seem to be able to watch without breaks, and sometimes without resuming. [ 21. April 2013, 07:26: Message edited by: Ariel ]
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I can't remember, Enoch. It was a late evening thing and somebody must have thought it was a good idea.
I went out of curiosity, I'm afraid. Had some idea of what to expect (and what not to expect), but was "surprised by joy" (well, giggles, anyway) nevertheless.
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Sorry, Ariel. Cross post!
-------------------- Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Ben Hur: not the silent one which is great, but the epic drama from the sixties! Too bloody long!
-------------------- If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson: quote: Originally posted by scuffleball: A bit off topic as it's a TV programme, but around here if you're highbrow you're "supposed" to find Monty Python funny. I just don't get it at all.
I think it's a combination of thinking that anything absurdist must be extremely clever, plus they throw around a lot of deliberately archaic and obscure references. So if you laugh, it means you're smart.
Hmm yes, I find xkcd falls into this category somewhat too.
-------------------- SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Noxious
Apprentice
# 17318
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Left at the Altar: The Unbearable Lightness of Being
I read a review that suggested that it would have been better to simply call it Unbearable. I agree.
"The Unbearable Longness Of Watching" was how I summarised it on first viewing. I can't remember a detail of the film now, thankfully...
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Noxious: quote: Originally posted by Left at the Altar: The Unbearable Lightness of Being
I read a review that suggested that it would have been better to simply call it Unbearable. I agree.
"The Unbearable Longness Of Watching" was how I summarised it on first viewing. I can't remember a detail of the film now, thankfully...
I really dislike all of Philip Kaufman's erotic films, especially Quills, which made the Marquis De Sade look like an 18th Century version of a Third Wave feminist.
And Henry And June. Hedonistic expats in Paris. Just not my scene, I'm afraid.
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Dark Knight
 Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
Loving reading this thread. It's like confession. Everyone getting off their chests a dislike for things they are supposed to be enamored of.
Agree with those who nominated Dr Strangelove - it's awful.
I enjoyed 2001, but have no idea what the fuck it was meant to be about. Kind of like listening to Bob Dylan for me.
Hated The Big Lebowski, and I have no idea what the fuss is about. I do like some of the Coens other stuff though.
Prometheus may not qualify as a great film, but I mention it here because it just isn't very good.
Secrets and Lies was so dreadful I fell asleep about two thirds of the way through it. It was traumatic. Not because of any traumatic themes - just remembering that I had paid money to rent it out (that was back in the old video shop days).
Psycho and The Shining were big disappointments. They were more amusing than scary. Particularly the dreadful acting by Shelley Duvall in the latter.
Finally, I agree with whoever mentioned Walkabout, which was utterly shambolically awful. And The Piano Teacher was so bad that I just have no words. ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
-------------------- So don't ever call me lucky You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
---- Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
Posts: 2958 | From: Beyond the Yellow Brick Road | Registered: Apr 2005
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dark Knight: Secrets and Lies was so dreadful I fell asleep about two thirds of the way through it. It was traumatic. Not because of any traumatic themes - just remembering that I had paid money to rent it out (that was back in the old video shop days).
I actually found this film screamingly funny, but I like Mike Leigh in general. Brenda Blethyn's character was just so dreadful.
"You don't half pick your moments!"
quote: Psycho and The Shining were big disappointments. They were more amusing than scary. Particularly the dreadful acting by Shelley Duvall in the latter.
Scroll down to 10.
Not that I am condoning what Kubrick did-- he sounds just as jackbatty as Hitch was, TBH-- but I read elsewhere that the pivotal scene where Wendy is screamed at by Jack when she interrupts his writing was an improv requested by Nicholson, who was trying to provoke a realistic performance from her. In other words, he was pissed off at how things were going and he actively took it out on her, in a method sort of way. [ 25. April 2013, 05:10: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Dark Knight
 Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
I guess Kubrick could be a real Ku-prick at times.
I thought of some more canonical unwatchables: - Mean Streets - WTF is so great about it?
- Someone up thread mentioned Punch-drunk love - I'm not sure I've ever been told it was a great film, but it was certainly unwatchable.
- Aguirre: The Wrath of God - blerg
- Dead Man - came out in Oz not long after the Port Arthur massacre, so it was probably a bad decision to go see it at that time. Doesn't take away from the fact that it's dreadful.
- My own private Idaho - finished watching it about two years ago, and I'm still waiting for something worthwhile in the plot to happen.
- The Breakfast Club - not unwatchable, but after all the hype I was expecting it to be SOOO much better than it was.
I'm sure there are others. I actually have films I like, too. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
-------------------- So don't ever call me lucky You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
---- Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Kelly Alves: Scroll down to 10.
Not that I am condoning what Kubrick did-- he sounds just as jackbatty as Hitch was, TBH-- but I read elsewhere that the pivotal scene where Wendy is screamed at by Jack when she interrupts his writing was an improv requested by Nicholson, who was trying to provoke a realistic performance from her. In other words, he was pissed off at how things were going and he actively took it out on her, in a method sort of way.
Yeah, her performance is dishrag-limp, and that's irritating. Even more irritating is that the character of Wendy, who is something of a Mama Bear in the original novel, is transformed into a one-dimensional doormat in the film--most likely by Kubrick's command.
In fact, the production pretty much exudes an air of "I'm going to take this pulp material and make Real Meaningful Art out of it". Really, if the original material is so unworthy then why work with it at all?
[little code fix, since I'm here.] [ 25. April 2013, 20:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- "The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Really, if the original material is so unworthy then why work with it at all?
Probably because it saves you the trouble of having to write a script off the top of your head.
Even if you don't think the book is a work of genius, it does give a starting point to construct your story from. And, there might be a few things in the novel that you think would go really well in your film, but which you couldn't appropriate without buying the rights.
As for Shelley Duvall, I'm a big partisan of her performance in The Shining. I think the whole point is that she's supposed to be a timid, submissive, not-particularly-intellectual person, pushed by circumstance to acts of astounding bravery.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Fr Weber: Yeah, her performance is dishrag-limp, and that's irritating. Even more irritating is that the character of Wendy, who is something of a Mama Bear in the original novel, is transformed into a one-dimensional doormat in the film--most likely by Kubrick's command.
Both King and Nicholson really protested this shift in Wendy-- King in particular wanted Wendy to be a bubbly, centered person who was suddenly thrust into madness. Kubrick wanted a dishrag. In her defense, though,(1.)she was only acting like the asshole Kubrick wanted her to be, (2.)both King and Nicholson later rated her on what a trooper she was for putting up with Kubrick's special brand of shit, and (3.)you gotta admit, when she stopped being the chirpy Stepford Hippie and devolved into a gibbering wreck, she began to kick a little ass.
One more thing in her defense-- Kubrick clearly hated her in a special way. Evidence: that Christ-forsaken wardrobe. Holy shit on a stick. I wouldn't dress Pol Pot in that ensemble.
A whole lot more on why Kubrick is batshit. A disturbing argument that power doesn't just corrupt, it actually fucks you up.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
tangent/ I think in the case of both Hitch and Kubrick, power and "art" merely fertilised what was always there./tangent
-------------------- I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning Hallellou, hallellou
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
Re: The Shining. Has anyone seen the later mini series and if so, how would you compare them? It's supposed to be closer to the book. I don't find the film particularly scary (though I've only seen part of it). The mini-series has some very creepy moving snow scultures; the rest of it is a little meh.
-------------------- 'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Dark Knight
 Super Zero
# 9415
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson: As for Shelley Duvall, I'm a big partisan of her performance in The Shining. I think the whole point is that she's supposed to be a timid, submissive, not-particularly-intellectual person, pushed by circumstance to acts of astounding bravery.
Yeah, but the point is she executed it badly. This was because she can't act. It would have been better if she had just spoken her lines into the camera. Well, not better. But the same.
More unwatchable 'great' films from me: - Candyman - OK, it was scary. But it was really awful. It was scarily awful.
- Independence Day - one of the worst things I have ever paid money to see.
- Requiem for a Dream - ok, this is an odd choice, because it's actually a good film with good performances. So I'm not criticising the film. But I wish I'd never seen it, and I will never see it again. Some things you just can't unsee. That scene with Jennifer Connelly is one of them. There are far too many scenes in that film like that.
-------------------- So don't ever call me lucky You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me - A B Original: I C U
---- Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Dark Knight: [*]Requiem for a Dream - ok, this is an odd choice, because it's actually a good film with good performances. So I'm not criticising the film. But I wish I'd never seen it, and I will never see it again. Some things you just can't unsee. That scene with Jennifer Connelly is one of them. There are far too many scenes in that film like that. [/list]
Oh I so know what you mean. (Although I have managed to watch that one again-- sucked in by good pacing again.)I was thinking there should be a sub-index of movies you actually thought were quite well done but just really hard to watch.
Audition. Seven. Boys Don't Cry.
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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fletcher christian
 Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Dark KNight: quote: Mean Streets - WTF is so great about it?
As a stand alone film it's not particularly great, but as an event on film's timeline its pretty important. It marks the moment when Marty starts to show (frighteningly early in his career) all the signs of being a formidable auteur, and (possibly more importantly) Robert De Niro positively crackles with acting style and flare* and pretty much secures his acting career from that point on......until Rocky and Bullwinkle. Oh God, the horror.
* This was the second time his ability was recognized in the same year. The other film was Bang The Drum (or something like that; can't quite remember)
-------------------- 'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe' Staretz Silouan
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
re: Requiem For A Dream.
I think I'm the opposite of people here. I found it watchable enough(I am not easily put off by "disturbing" content), but I didn't think it was a very well done film. The bleakness and despair had a rather contrived quality to them, like I was conscious of the script going out of its way to shock the audience.
This review from a trostskyite website pretty much summed it up for me.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Kelly Alves
 Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Aronofsky said something in an interview that made me watch the film in the first place-- he said he was trying to put together story arcs for the characters (pretty much straight from Selby's book) and it was coming out all wonky. Then he decided to turn Addiction into the triumphant hero of the story, and give it its own story arch. He said everything fell into place after that. But it might explain the detached feel.
The stylistic filming-- like the tummy camera, and the sped up dialogue in places--etc was something Aranofsky more or less pioneered, but in this late hour that style feels dated and overwrought to me. [ 26. April 2013, 18:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
-------------------- I cannot expect people to believe “ Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.” Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
Okay, I get that it's really artiphoto, but "2001: A Space Odyssey" makes little sense to me, especially the beginning and ending.
And there are other really artiphoto films that people criticize for having a hackneyed (e.g. Avatar) or merely banal (e.g. Scott Pilgrim and the Tron films) plot; 2001's plot is merely incomprehensible in a Philip-Glass-esque way. Seems a bit pretentious to me.
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Okay, I get that it's really artiphoto, but "2001: A Space Odyssey" makes little sense to me, especially the beginning and ending.
Actually, for the most part, it's fairly straightforward, once you work it out.
God(or whatever it's supposed to be) descends to Earth in the form of the monolith, and makes the apes human. Upon moving up the evolutionary ladder, the apes learn to use tools and kill one another.
Millenia later, HAL, nearing another one of God's monolithic avatars on Jupiter's moon, makes(or at least begins the process of making) the same evolutionary leap that the apes made millenia ago, even learning to kill just as they did. But the astronaut shuts him down, largely in self-defense, but with the added benefit of maintaining humankind's hegemony in the known universe.
Like you, I'm uncertain about the denoument, with the elderly astronaut being interrupted by the intrusion of the spaceship into his dining room. I think the scene(apart from being just another excuse for Kubrick to indulge his interest in filming ornate and spacious rooms) is meant to portray the astronaut's actual dwelling in the future, not just something that exists in his own mind.
Possibly the point is that man, having kicked machines back down to their rightful place on the evolutionary ladder, has now himself made the next step forward, conquering the limitations of time. Just some semi-educated speculation.
I'm guessing that Arthur C. Clarke was familiar with Samuel Butler's novel Erewhon, which satirizes various ideas of evolution. In his imaginary land, the people keep machines locked up in prison, terrified that they might attain consciousness. This was a spoof on evolutionists who tried to maintain a qualitiative difference between man and his ancestors, the joke being "Well, if non-human animals can develop consciousness, why not machines?"
-------------------- I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
To me, "2001" wasn't an occasion for linear thought nor analysis.
It did seem to me to come full circle, at the end.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
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Robert Armin
 All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
I watched 2001 in the cinema with my sister. At the end, as I sat in awed silence, she turned to me and asked, "What happened to the monkeys?".
-------------------- Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Stetson: Like you, I'm uncertain about the denoument
It represents Bowman becoming the next evolution of humanity through contact with the monolith, just as the apes had become the first evolution of humanity through contact with the monolith. He fast-forwards through the rest of his natural life and is reborn as the starchild.
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Marvin the Martian: quote: Originally posted by Stetson: Like you, I'm uncertain about the denoument
It represents Bowman becoming the next evolution of humanity through contact with the monolith, just as the apes had become the first evolution of humanity through contact with the monolith. He fast-forwards through the rest of his natural life and is reborn as the starchild.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at in my explication, but you've filled in a few of the blanks for me. Thanks.
-------------------- I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The best thing about 2001 was the special effects - years ahead of their time and won an Oscar for Brit Tom Howard.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by L'organist: The best thing about 2001 was the special effects - years ahead of their time and won an Oscar for Brit Tom Howard.
Stunning special effects. They weren't surpassed till Star Wars. When they hand painted mattes for the ship over the stars, they did three color separated mattes by hand to avoid color fringing.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Tom H was very modest - used his Oscars as doorstops.
Was a charming chap. I've happy memories of him starting a talk to a youth club with "I'm very old and was only a backroom boy so you won't have heard of me, but your parents may have heard of some of the people I worked with." He then gestured to a display at the back with handwritten notes from people like Burton, Elizabeth Taylor, Olivier, etc, etc, etc.
-------------------- Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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