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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Are 'power' prayers helpful?
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AngloCatholicGirl
Shipmate
# 16435
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Posted
I ask this because I have been following a blog on Facebook by someone who is losing a loved one to cancer. The disease is now in the final stages and the question is now around whether they give up on treatment to focus on quality of life.
My unease is that in the comments was one prayer that began 'I command cancer to go now' and carried on in that vein for the rest of the prayer- the commenter was obviously genuinely praying for a healing and that is fine.
But I was unhappy with the aggressive nature of the prayer (it will happen if you just have faith, implying your faith isn't good enough if healing doesn't happen) as barring a miracle the person involved will sadly die soon. I found the prayer upsetting and thought it left no space for the notion that death might be God's healing from pain.
Is this just me being unfamiliar with these types of prayer that makes me feel uncomfortable? Have people found these prayers be quite helpful?
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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson
Posts: 75 | From: Now from across the pond | Registered: May 2011
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AngloCatholicGirl
Shipmate
# 16435
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Posted
My apologies hosts, I seem to have used my usual IT genius when attempting an edit and have instead posted twice. Would you kindly close the duplicate down?
Many thanks and grovelling apologies (promise not to do it again ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson
Posts: 75 | From: Now from across the pond | Registered: May 2011
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
I have always been very uncomfortable with these prayers, and practically writhed visibly when one gentleman of a Pentecostal persuasion prayer over me in such a vein.
And "it" didn't go.
Again, upsetting implication was that I did not have enough faith, and that feeling has beset me for the rest of my Christian (not Pente) life.
If people want to pray for me, I wish they'd go away and do it quietly somewhere else.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
"I command..."? That seems a bit mixed up. God's in command, surely. This is where people get faith and magic confused. A person who believes s/he uses magic is in charge of its uses. A person who prays for the power of God's intercession leaves God in charge, no matter the outcome.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
I think the justification for this kind of praying is that it's how the early Christians (and Jesus himself) are recorded in the New Testament as praying. 'Be healed', 'Get up and walk' etc.
Also, you look at Jesus' instructions to his followers - 'Heal the sick', 'Cast out demons in my name'. It's not 'Ask God / me to heal the sick'.
But praying this way can set up unrealistic expectations, I think, and I'm sure it can be rather shocking and disconcerting if one isn't expecting it...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I used to be in a small fellowship where there was a tendency to speak to (make proclamations to) demons - sometimes even more than speaking to God. I got the feeling at times that we were getting bored and frustrated with 'normal' prayers, and so we felt that God must be telling us that it was down to us to take command and control of the situation and "exercise our authority" as believers.
I found it very dangerous. I regret to say (and it embarrasses me intensely when I remember those days) that I participated in this, and, in fact (while not the prime mover) was one of the worst culprits.
My advice to anyone is this: don't do it! (unless you really really have a very strong leading from God to do so, and that would only be in exceptional circumstances).
Even if you don't believe in evil spirits, it is still damaging, because, from a psychological point of view, it is manic, and it creates even more frustration and false expectations (as well as stirring up an unacceptably aggressive and confrontational attitude).
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
What you describe, EE, is what I call "paranoid spirituality". It sees demons behind everything. Everything is interpreted in terms of spiritual warfare, defined as fighting directly against demons, in the way you describe.
Inevitably, more and more things get labelled as conduits for the demonic. Fantasy RPGs are a favourite. Anything with the remotest connection to a non-Christian religion (artefacts brought back from foreign holidays, for example), any ornaments bearing images considered "negative", like snakes or dragons, even fairies...
At its worst it descends into a sort of dualism.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
I feel the need to clarify my previous post - I do believe there are malign spiritual forces which one might call demons, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of seeing demonic influence behind every misfortune. S**t happens, often without any spiritual reason or purpose, IMO.
So I don't go round praying against demons in all sorts of situations, but when we are praying for healing or spiritual comfort I say let's be guided by how the first Christians prayed (and indeed by how Jesus told us to pray).
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm with EE. A friend of mine's wife lost her faith about three years ago and is now quite antagonistic to all things Christian.
One of the reasons for her loss of faith was the fact that they'd prayed for a relative suffering from cancer and done all the 'commanding' and what-not and the loved one had died.
I think this kind of teaching and emphasis is dangerous - even in its milder forms, as in the case of South Coast Kevin and his Vineyard church.
I would suggest that it's based on a faulty and over-egged reading of the way Jesus prayed and the disciples operated.
Sure, there are rather 'commanding' prayers recorded in Acts and the Gospels but we need to look at the context and also at the theological import of what was happening. I'm not saying that these healings didn't happen but they are recorded for a purpose and there's generally a didactic/theological element. They aren't there to suggest that Christ, his disciples and anyone else went around healing everybody in their path.
Christ raised Lazarus, not the entire cemetery.
He healed Peter's mother-in-law not everyone else's mothers-in-law.
Put bluntly, it's poor theology and poor practice.
I'm not singling the Vineyard out for censure here, but I know of an instance where a couple from a Vineyard church went to the house of a friend who'd lost her baby and prayed over the corpse 'commanding' the dead baby to come back to life.
I find it hard to conceive of anything more likely to cause pastoral problems and lead to major upset.
Sure, I believe that God answers prayer, I believe that people can recover in response to prayer ... but as Nicodemia says, I wish people would pray those prayers privately without barging up to people and laying guilt-trips on them.
I'd seriously question your standpoint on this one, South Coast Kevin my estimable friend, very seriously ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I agree with all that.
Furthermore, such prayer can become akin to us browbeating or even blackmailing God (i.e. saying, "You have promised in your Word, therefore we command ...").
How DARE we humans do such a thing? It smells of blasphemy.
But - at the other end of the spectrum - there can also be too much pussy-footing around with "If it be thy will" prayers too. Somehow we need to find a balance.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
No prayer is good if it tries to paint God into a corner, or if it implies that it's God's will for people to suffer in agony from the evils of disease, hunger, etc.
We're only ever given authority by God to serve God, not to make demands of God.
God gives gifts freely, with no requirement for faith other than sufficient faith to pray.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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AngloCatholicGirl
Shipmate
# 16435
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Posted
It's good to know that other people are uncomfortable with this type of prayer. I had heard of them before but never encounted them directly and I thought maybe my reaction of 'this is terrible' was the result of my being out of my comfort zone.
I have dealt with families (including my own) having to make hard end of treatment decisions and I think this type of prayer is about as unhelpful as it gets and could even cause harm.
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Love is the wisdom of the fool and the folly of the wise -Samuel Johnson
Posts: 75 | From: Now from across the pond | Registered: May 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I think the only reasonable sort of prayer for illness, for impending death, and other trials is 'help me to bear up under this, give me strength to accept what is happening (or what has happened'. The answers to prayer coming mostly from other people and an internal sense of peace. It doesn't get much better than this, and it is absolutely enough.
God seeming to distinctly not having the inclination to affect the physical, biological etc running of the world and universe. I suspect the reason runs in the direction of free will, with free will also referring to natural processes being let operate as they are set up naturally to do so.
God's purpose only to chip away the bits of us that are not fitted to god's purposes, with our health and safety being epiphenomena. Thus, the bad made good, which is really what the crucifixion message is: that god can make good of pretty much anything if we are only willing to do it, and we also must not be passive and merely go along, we must do and act.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
But, but... these aren't prayers, are they? If they're addressing demons (or cancer, or death, or what have you), it seems to me that "prayer" is the last thing you'd call it. Who prays to demons?
And if you're not talking to God, well... you're not talking to him, then. You're not praying.
This maybe looks really petty and pedantic, but I think it's important. Because if we take it out of the category of "prayer," we can maybe avoid the automatic aura of holiness that pops up and see more clearly.
What I see (you can argue with me, of course!) is not prayer, but order-giving. And that's damnably presumptuous if you [general you] are not the person who naturally posesses authority over the one you are giving orders to. In the case of demons etc. only God has that authority as he's the creator of everything. And unless he's clearly and unmistakably delegated to you (and the results make it pretty clear he hasn't, in these cases!), we're back to damnable presumption again. Along with a whole lot of pain for the people involved.
I don't see anything at all admirable in usurping God's authority without clear commandment. And with the damage it does, this kind of thing really ticks me off.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
this I think is a very good point...
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But, but... these aren't prayers, are they? If they're addressing demons (or cancer, or death, or what have you), it seems to me that "prayer" is the last thing you'd call it. Who prays to demons?
And if you're not talking to God, well... you're not talking to him, then. You're not praying.
However, I think seeing it that way actually gives it a slightly (but only slightly) more positive light. Recognizing (correctly I believe) that it is not prayer but something else takes away the heavy stench of blasphemy about it, since it's not the Sovereign Lord you're trying to boss around. (Although it only applies to some of these "power prayers". Some seem to be directed at the demons, others though ARE directed at God in a bossy sort of way-- "You have promised this... so you HAVE to do this... so your name can be glorified..."). otoh, perhaps not any more so than when Moses starts bargaining with God over Sodom...)
However, I would say re: this:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
What I see (you can argue with me, of course!) is not prayer, but order-giving. And that's damnably presumptuous if you [general you] are not the person who naturally posesses authority over the one you are giving orders to. In the case of demons etc. only God has that authority as he's the creator of everything. And unless he's clearly and unmistakably delegated to you (and the results make it pretty clear he hasn't, in these cases!), we're back to damnable presumption again. Along with a whole lot of pain for the people involved.
I don't see anything at all admirable in usurping God's authority without clear commandment. And with the damage it does, this kind of thing really ticks me off.
I think that may be the only part of the equation they got right. We do have verses like quote:
Luke 10:19: I have given you authority to tread on snakes & scorpions & over all the power of the enemy & nothing will hurt you.
where Jesus does delegate that authority, at least to the 70. It's no different than coming up against any other systemic evil-- poverty, child abuse, injustice. We dare to do it because Christ has called us and equipped us for the task.
otoh, the rest of your comments I think are spot on. It's the fruit of this that shows it to be a poisonous plant-- the inevitable pain, despair or disbelief when it doesn't pan out, and the underlying prosperity gospel and all the damage that does.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I find these kind of prayers where we the created tell God the Creator what to do.
I understand where this person is at I lost my father to cancer in 1981 and my mother to demetia 5 yeras ago. Would have prayed such a prayer ? No . When Dad died I had a friend ,an RN tell me be realistic about what is happening advice I was thankful for then and again 5 years ago.
Does this mean I don't believe in the miraculous power of God ? By no means it's just that we can not tell God how things should be. He is afterall God and we are not .ACG I hope yopur friends familu has many concerned friend s like yop around them to support them. They are more precious than gold . ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm not so sure it takes away the odor of blasphemy, at least for me. The person is still attempting to fill Christ's shoes, and the bad result shows it is wiithout his sanction. That's close enough to blasphemy for me!
I agree that there are some to whom Christ does give this authority and responsibility. But I don't think it's to all or even most of us (as Paul says somewhere, "Are all workers of miracles?" A rhetorical question that clearly expects the answer, "No."
IMNSHO anybody who intends to do this kind of thing had better confirm that he or she is gifted for it before inflicting major pain on a family or suffering person. And certainly refrain from excusing any failures by blaming the faithlessness of the sufferers. I know Jesus occasionally ran into cases where lack of faith was a problem, but he already had a well known miracle record a mile long and an ocean deep. I'll accept that excuse for blaming people from a fellow Christian if he or she can honestly claim the same.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I agree that there are some to whom Christ does give this authority and responsibility. But I don't think it's to all or even most of us (as Paul says somewhere, "Are all workers of miracles?" A rhetorical question that clearly expects the answer, "No."
IMNSHO anybody who intends to do this kind of thing had better confirm that he or she is gifted for it before inflicting major pain on a family or suffering person.
Agreed. The problem, of course, is that the only way to really confirm a gifting is to try it, and see the fruit. That's not so bad when you're testing a gift of teaching or preaching, where the fruit may be simply a bunch of bored/mildly irritated folks. But, as we have seen, the fruit of testing a gift of healing (or prophesy for that matter) can be horrific.
I think humility is the key-- as well as the key to avoiding that heavy stench of blasphemy. Asking for healing (or asking for revelation) but doing so with humility, recognizing that we are engaging the Lord of the universe, not a cosmic slot machine, and that we are entering into a great arena of mystery. Indeed, even if your gift has been "confirmed" by dozens of "successful miracles", humility is still the way to go. Not just humility in your own heart/soul (altho it must begin there) but also explicitly in the way you teach/preach/explain what you are about to do-- or rather, what you're about to request God to do.
I wonder if the problem is related to the whole alpha-dog "muscular Christianity" movement? At least in the US it seems to be connected to this whole idea that leadership, particular Christian leadership, is all about a very uber-confident, decisive (which, in American parlance, seems to mean "deciding quickly" rather than deciding well) and unapologetic sort of action (even when things turn out desperately wrong). All very much egged on by a generous dose of hubris IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And certainly refrain from excusing any failures by blaming the faithlessness of the sufferers.
amen and amen.
[ 12. April 2013, 16:48: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
“If you have enough faith and pray the right prayers your cancer will be healed”. Oh it hasn’t worked. Now you have cancer and have demonstrated that you don’t have faith enough to be healed. I really find it hard to see why God’s choice to heal or not to heal would be based on anything as faltering as whether we have it in us to believe the right things at the right time. There’s got to be more to God’s decision making process than that surely?
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
“If you have enough faith and pray the right prayers your cancer will be healed”. Oh it hasn’t worked. Now you have cancer and have demonstrated that you don’t have faith enough to be healed. I really find it hard to see why God’s choice to heal or not to heal would be based on anything as faltering as whether we have it in us to believe the right things at the right time. There’s got to be more to God’s decision making process than that surely?
Ooo. This has got me. It couldn't be the person doing the praying that's got it wrong.
As this is not Hell I'll keep my emotions in check and not say what I really feel about the twats who say things like this.
But God can and does heal. I've received healing myself. Ive been part of a group praying for someone where the prayee has got well both immediately and over a few days. I beleive God heals because I've seen too much to believe otherwise. Hell, I know God heals.
But most of the time I've prayed for people nothing seemed to happen. I'll freely admit that in the vast majority of these cases nothing did happen.
But that does not stop me from praying. Even though the idea of a God who will heal one person and nor another sounds like a god who is cruel for denying healing to some.
Then seven years ago I had an accident. I was knocked off my push bike by a motorist. And it was not my fault (the courts agree). Since then I walk with a stick and have constant pain.
I have been prayed for healing lots of times. Some of them the claimed the healing. One tried to cast out the demon that caused it (it wasn't a demon, it was a Ford Fiesta).
Nothing.
Zilch.
But rather than wallow in the self pity of a victim mentality, or believe that I don't have enough faith to be healed, or to blame an evil God (I've gone through that one) I have come to realise that God can be relied on. God can go through the suffering with you, and in so doing this can bring you closer to God. Which is my experience.
Not that God caused the suffering to bring me closer. Hell no.
Shit happens, but the story of the incarnation is that God involves himself in the shit.
But telling the sickness to go? This comes from the false belief that it is always God's will to heal in every circumstance. It's lazy, but it does make life easy in that you don't have to do the hard stuff of finding out what God actually wants, which in my experience involves a lot of trial and error, getting it wrong and *gasp* apologising.
I have seen people healed, I've received healing, there's no doubt in my mind that God can, and does heal. But for his own reasons, not always.
There seems to me to be a lot of arrogance in an approach that will blame the victim for their lack of healing when prayed for. But that could be just my conceit in thinking people I disagree with are arrogant.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
"I command..."? That seems a bit mixed up. God's in command, surely. This is where people get faith and magic confused. A person who believes s/he uses magic is in charge of its uses. A person who prays for the power of God's intercession leaves God in charge, no matter the outcome.
Precisely Lyda*Rose, precisely. As C. S. Lewis said, prayer is a request to God, which may or may not be answered.
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
Posted by balaam
quote:
I have seen people healed, I've received healing, there's no doubt in my mind that God can, and does heal. But for his own reasons, not always.
I certainly wouldn't deny someones experience of healing and, whilst I've never seen anything like it myself, pray for healing for people regularly. I think that "for his own reasons" is very important. We don't have access to God's reasoning (if I may put it like that) and I dislike, perhaps detest would be more accurate, the idea of demanding healing them blaming the victim when it doesn't transpire. I think we're on the same page here.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Such prayers are a form of atheism - the same way Christianity was in Rome. Of disavowed disbelief. Projection. Self-deceit. And worse of course as they completely, psychotically distort reality.
People who pray that way need deliverance and the rest of us need to be left alone to die of cancer in peace. Not that I am yet.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
Thanks balaam.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Indeed Squibs, thanks balaam. Although I have never seen anyone healed and never will. I don't have that disposition. Although I see healing in you as I am experiencing it in myself. I have that one ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 13. April 2013, 10:39: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What balaam said. Verily God hath spoken through the mouth of an ass ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I just hope that various ass-holes (to mix the metaphor and not referring to anyone here) have the wisdom to receive it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
What balaam said. Verily God hath spoken through the mouth of an ass ...
I just hope that various ass-holes (to mix the metaphor and not referring to anyone here) have the wisdom to receive it.
Agree w/ my witty friend on both counts. Thank you, Balaam.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crazy Cat Lady
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# 17616
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Posted
Well i have been described as a 'healer' and that makes me feel quite uncomfortable because I don't think I am.
But I do have an ability to help people who feel emotionally down, to feel alot better, just by sitting and talking. I think i can do this not via any miracle, but simply because I have had alot of experience of feeling down and I know what helps.
The fact that I can use this experience to benefit others and always seem to know when someone needs a chat even if I haven't spoken to them for a while - now that might be divine.
I do try and avoid butting into people's lives - the 'over eager helper' is just an annoying as those who are indifferent.
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'They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me!"
Nathaniel Lee
Posts: 52 | From: Suffolk | Registered: Mar 2013
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gextvedde:
Posted by balaam
quote:
I have seen people healed, I've received healing, there's no doubt in my mind that God can, and does heal. But for his own reasons, not always.
I certainly wouldn't deny someones experience of healing and, whilst I've never seen anything like it myself, pray for healing for people regularly. I think that "for his own reasons" is very important. We don't have access to God's reasoning (if I may put it like that) and I dislike, perhaps detest would be more accurate, the idea of demanding healing them blaming the victim when it doesn't transpire. I think we're on the same page here.
Right on. A strong and resilient faith is about understanding that God will often have even better things in mind than a miraculous healing (i.e. one that's more miraculous than the miraculous "normal" way the body heals itself) and that things generally go better for us when we avoid putting God in a box.
quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Cat Lady:
Well i have been described as a 'healer' and that makes me feel quite uncomfortable because I don't think I am.
But I do have an ability to help people who feel emotionally down, to feel alot better, just by sitting and talking. I think i can do this not via any miracle, but simply because I have had alot of experience of feeling down and I know what helps.
Others who read 1 Corinthians 12 as it was intended (a non-exhaustative list giving examples of some spiritual gifts) might describe that as a spiritual gift of compassion or pastoral care. Whether others have a faith mature enough to not try and squish the unique set of abilities God has given to you into a checklist is their problem, not yours.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
I am very familiar with the type of prayer in the OP from my time in a "Name it and Claim it" prosperity gospel church.
The same form of prayer was used on Sunday mornings to pray for, a small selection from my memory:
1) the return of a runaway child
2) recovery from drug addiction
3) money to appear in a bank account (no words on how it would get there)
4) cheating spouses to become faithful
5) the assistant pastor to get a new BMW Z class
6) my 'recovery' from a 'rebellious spirit'.
In my opinion (which is part of why number 6 got prayed) this isn't prayer. It's wishing.
Of course, those who have grown up in such a tradition don't really see it that way, they see it as helping. And then if it doesn't work-- well, there's the fallback explanations that Gextvedde cite-- which turn it into "name it and blame it".
I don't discount the faith of people who have raised in these traditions. I just, you know, sometimes wish they'd shut up.
I'm sure they feel the same way about me, though, when I'm all, "Let's open the Book of Common Prayer to page 827."
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mark Betts
Ship's Navigation Light
# 17074
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I am very familiar with the type of prayer in the OP from my time in a "Name it and Claim it" prosperity gospel church.
The same form of prayer was used on Sunday mornings to pray for, a small selection from my memory:
1) the return of a runaway child
2) recovery from drug addiction
3) money to appear in a bank account (no words on how it would get there)
4) cheating spouses to become faithful
5) the assistant pastor to get a new BMW Z class
6) my 'recovery' from a 'rebellious spirit'.
In my opinion (which is part of why number 6 got prayed) this isn't prayer. It's wishing.
Of course, those who have grown up in such a tradition don't really see it that way, they see it as helping. And then if it doesn't work-- well, there's the fallback explanations that Gextvedde cite-- which turn it into "name it and blame it".
I don't discount the faith of people who have raised in these traditions. I just, you know, sometimes wish they'd shut up.
I'm sure they feel the same way about me, though, when I'm all, "Let's open the Book of Common Prayer to page 827."
Ah yes, the (UK) Sky TV "religion" channels (with the exception of Revelation - sometimes - and good ol' Jimmy Swaggart's station.)
I'm shocked how christianity could ever have degenerated to this in "the land of the free."
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"We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."
Posts: 2080 | From: Leicester | Registered: Apr 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's because it's the land of the free Mark. And vice-verse. It's the land of the free (what massive irony: how can you be free if you have something that actually has you as its slave therefore (think 'job'), and it's layered, not only does the land have you, 'freedom' does: the greatest possible irony) because of it's got God on its side. God the tooth fairy. God the deus ex machina. The God who answers OUR prayers.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think this kind of teaching and emphasis is dangerous - even in its milder forms, as in the case of South Coast Kevin and his Vineyard church.
I would suggest that it's based on a faulty and over-egged reading of the way Jesus prayed and the disciples operated.
This strikes me as explicitly false. The Gospels are very clear on prayer, including healing prayer, as the kind of thing that we are commanded to do. I admit to finding this a rather challenging command, but the notion that somehow it really isn't part of Christ's commision to us seems more wishful thinking that honest exegesis.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think this kind of teaching and emphasis is dangerous - even in its milder forms, as in the case of South Coast Kevin and his Vineyard church.
I would suggest that it's based on a faulty and over-egged reading of the way Jesus prayed and the disciples operated.
This strikes me as explicitly false. The Gospels are very clear on prayer, including healing prayer, as the kind of thing that we are commanded to do. I admit to finding this a rather challenging command, but the notion that somehow it really isn't part of Christ's commision to us seems more wishful thinking that honest exegesis.
--Tom Clune
I'm going to have to agree. There is a lot of wisdom on this thread and very apt examples of things we should avoid-- things that very much cause more harm than good. But we also need to take care not to eschew was does, in fact, seem to be a central part of the mission Jesus calls us to, a central theme of Jesus' ministry. We do this not because we are so gifted or spiritual, not to demonstrate our spiritual heft, not to dazzle or impress, but simply because there is much suffering, and Jesus calls us to care (not that others here don't care, just that Tom is right that this is one way we're called to care).
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Thank you, tclune and cliffdweller. I was feeling a bit lonely with my opinion on this, and (I confess) had been rather scared away from contributing to this thread any more, in the face of everyone decrying the 'commanding' prayer approach.
I'm certainly conscious of the dangers that folks have expressed upthread. Yes, there can be an implication that someone involved (the pray-er or the afflicted person) lacks faith if healing doesn't happen. Yes, it can become a form of bossing God around.
But I just can't get away from what I read in the New Testament - it's full of command-type prayers and completely lacking (I think...) in prayers along the lines of 'Lord, please heal this person'. If we're going to pray for healing at all, then I want a very clear reason for not doing it in the way commanded by Jesus and evidenced in the rest of the New Testament.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But what do we do in the meantime? We're all 'agreed', we all know what the Bible says, what all know what Jesus and the apostles did and said.
What does that have to do with us and our experience? With our reality? Which has NOTHING to do with theirs in overlap of external experience.
Until all the miracles that we dutifully, powerfully, formally, atheistically pray for happen - which they DON'T, not in my narrative, even if I were there with you for whom it does while it did for you and didn't for me - what do we do? For the sick? The afflicted? The poor?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until all the miracles that we dutifully, powerfully, formally, atheistically pray for happen - which they DON'T, not in my narrative, even if I were there with you for whom it does while it did for you and didn't for me - what do we do? For the sick? The afflicted? The poor?
We pray.
We pray for healing. We pray for wisdom. We pray for discernment. We pray for comfort. We pray for understanding. We pray for compassion. We pray for forgiveness when our fumbling attempts to help do more harm than good. We pray for the presence of Christ to be in and with us in our suffering. We pray for healing, in every sense in which that is true.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My wife and I were once phoned by a Christian young person whom we knew well. This person was very distressed as a school friend had phoned and was threatening suicide. It was proving impossible to make any contact with her as she had turned off her phone and was not responding to calls or texts.
I felt totally helpless; all I could do was pray over the phone, asking that the girl in question (whom I didn't know personally) would draw back from committing the ultimate act. Fortunately she did: I later learned that she had indeed self-harmed and gone to the hospital but that her injuries were superficial.
My question with relevance to this thread is one which I am sure many of us have faced: what if my prayer had "failed" and the girl had killed herself? What would have been the effect on the faith of the young person who had phoned us and with whom I had prayed?
[ 14. April 2013, 15:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until all the miracles that we dutifully, powerfully, formally, atheistically pray for happen - which they DON'T, not in my narrative, even if I were there with you for whom it does while it did for you and didn't for me - what do we do? For the sick? The afflicted? The poor?
We pray.
We pray for healing. We pray for wisdom. We pray for discernment. We pray for comfort. We pray for understanding. We pray for compassion. We pray for forgiveness when our fumbling attempts to help do more harm than good. We pray for the presence of Christ to be in and with us in our suffering. We pray for healing, in every sense in which that is true.
And we pray for universal healthcare...
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Guys, we're converging. But you're, WE'RE, all avoiding the elephant in the room.
What do we DO? When we're all prayered out what do we DO?
Baptist Trainfan. If the girl had killed herself that wouldn't have been a failure of prayer. It CERTAINLY wouldn't have been God saying no to the prayer or ignoring it.
As has been WELL and properly said, we MUST pray. We must pray AS IF God were to respond just as He did to Jesus and the apostles. All bar one of whom were murdered. While knowing and admitting FULL WELL that we will have no way of knowing that He intervened one way or the other and in FACT therefore didn't and doesn't. That He NEVER does. In His providence for which we must express our gratitude in prayer. As Job did.
We MUST fully enter in to the crucifixion. Ours. Every day. In to the mystery of unknowing, of helplessness. Of crucifixion.
Even if You're NOT there at all God, I believe in You and in fact it certainly feels, looks like there is NO trace of You. And I feel the fear of Your non-existence. Of meaningless.
Which means I am in You and You are in me and that You know exactly what I mean because You have been there on the cross, bereft of Yourself.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Until all the miracles that we dutifully, powerfully, formally, atheistically pray for happen - which they DON'T, not in my narrative, even if I were there with you for whom it does while it did for you and didn't for me - what do we do? For the sick? The afflicted? The poor?
We pray.
We pray for healing. We pray for wisdom. We pray for discernment. We pray for comfort. We pray for understanding. We pray for compassion. We pray for forgiveness when our fumbling attempts to help do more harm than good. We pray for the presence of Christ to be in and with us in our suffering. We pray for healing, in every sense in which that is true.
And we pray for universal healthcare...
--Tom Clune
And then we do stuff.
We feed the hungry, invite strangers in, give clothes to those that need them, look after the sick and visit those in prison.
Prayer is vital, but it does not exist in a vacuum.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Amen balaam. HOW? When? How much? I'm sick of church. Of church services where I'm asked to worship with money. Of a concert of me, me, me hymns to dying, dying, dying for me, me, me Jesus interrupted by a lecture on doing more, more, more. Where do they fit in to DOING something?
Don't worry, that's rhetorical
No one here has the answers, can show the way. That IS the answer as it is to the OP.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
tclune - either I didn't express myself clearly enough or you've misunderstood what I said.
I will go with the former as I'm a charitable soul and of a sunny disposition ...
I didn't say it was wrong to pray for healing.
The practice I was criticising was the 'commanding' prayer malarkey - and I gave examples as to why I thought it was iffy and to be avoided.
I certainly did not say that we shouldn't pray for healing.
What I was concerned about was the WAY that we pray for healing because the commanding kind of way strikes me as pastorally insensitive at best and dangerous at worst.
It's not just a question of saying, 'Well, Jesus and the early disciples did it so it must be ok ...'
What I was suggesting was that we look at the theological lessons that these instances are there in the Gospels to teach us.
'Who is he that the winds and waves obey him?'
The story of Jesus walking on water is there to tell us that he's pretty special. He's doing something that the rest of us can't do. Heck, for a short time even Peter is able to do it too ...
It's telling us that Jesus is divine and that we can share in that to some extent ... but it isn't there to tell us that we can go out for a jog along the lake.
I'm really very sorry to clash with South Coast Kevin on this because he's an all-round good bloke. One of the nicest and most harmless guys on the Ship in my opinion.
But I'm sorry, I must disagree with him on this one.
None of you - besides Baptist Trainfan - have engaged with the instance I gave from an incident I'm aware of. Someone taking it upon themselves to go and pray over the corpse of a dead baby and 'command' that it return to life in the name of Jesus.
Fortunately, in this instance, the parents were pretty cool about it (or as cool as anyone could be in such circumstances) and there was no harm done. But it could easily have had a far more upsetting outcome.
I've seen someone hauled out of their wheelchair and pushed/man-handled around an auditorium with people bellowing and naming-and-claiming and giving it large in tongues and all the rest of it - only for them to slump back into their wheelchair once everyone had worn themselves out ...
It wasn't pretty. It wasn't edifying. It was awful. Probably among the worst things I've seen.
I know what South Coast Kevin is proposing isn't as full-on and wrong-headed as this. Nowhere near. But it's at the milder end of a continuum that leads in that direction.
Sure, there's an equal and opposite error of not actually praying at all ...
But there is a balance.
But I'm afraid I've seen too much huffing and puffing and 'I'll blow your house down' with very little to show for it to want to join Kevin and his pals in praying this way to want to engage in anything like this ever again.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
Answer to the o/p - "Yes, when these prayers are answered." Need to be careful not to confuse style with substance. Someone who tries to drag someone out of a wheelchair isn't an idiot because he's "commanding prayer" - he's just an idiot.
There's all kinds of different ways to pray in the NT - commanding prayer is one of them.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Thank you, tclune and cliffdweller. I was feeling a bit lonely with my opinion on this, and (I confess) had been rather scared away from contributing to this thread any more, in the face of everyone decrying the 'commanding' prayer approach.
I'm certainly conscious of the dangers that folks have expressed upthread. Yes, there can be an implication that someone involved (the pray-er or the afflicted person) lacks faith if healing doesn't happen. Yes, it can become a form of bossing God around.
But I just can't get away from what I read in the New Testament - it's full of command-type prayers and completely lacking (I think...) in prayers along the lines of 'Lord, please heal this person'. If we're going to pray for healing at all, then I want a very clear reason for not doing it in the way commanded by Jesus and evidenced in the rest of the New Testament.
While I agree that we want to follow the example of Jesus, we must remember that everything he did was to show us God.
Unless we're specifically given a gift from God and the authority to use it - and the disciples were given authority (Luke 9:1) - it may not only be against the will of God but dangerous to try to assume authority for ourselves (as in Acts 13-16).
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Gamaliel, as always (who'd have thought it eh?).
Truman White. How would we know?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Gamaliel, as always (who'd have thought it eh?).
Truman White. How would we know?
Know what Marty me old' son - that a prayer's been answers or that someone's an idiot?
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Yes.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
And we pray for universal healthcare...
--Tom Clune
Amen and amen.
And sometimes, when our efforts to that end begin to feel futile, I go a bit further and just pray "Maranatha, come Lord Jesus, come."
But so far he hasn't changed his calendar to meet my agenda, so the next day we get up and advocate some more.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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