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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Bathroom Gender Rules Be Enforced at All?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm not sure whether this is a tangent or not.
I can see that being a transgender person, is a tragic situation for a person to find themselves in. Which door you go into when you need to go is only one, and not the most difficult, of the problems you have to face.
However, I am in my sixties and as far as I know, I've only met one transgender person and two transvestites - who I know aren't transgender anyway. If it hasn't been pertinent to you, it doesn't rattle your cage. There are other social issues that you will regard as higher priority.
That though isn't my question.
I've picked up elsewhere, and it's clear from some comments on this thread, that there are people who think that as an issue of principle, of social dogma, we ought all, whether male or female, be required to use the same loos, washing and changing facilities. We all do in our own homes, but the general practice in the public sphere has, all my life, been to have separate ones.
I can see that people building hotels, pubs, public buildings etc might want to argue this so as to save money. I can also see that they might be grateful to be able to dredge up arguements that sound high minded to conceal their grubby motive.
However, I haven't really encountered this debate. So I can't actually see what the high minded, issues of principle, social dogma etc reasons are. It clearly isn't just the possible needs of the very small number of transgender people. Can somebody tell me please?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
First, 58% of people in India just try to find a patch of ground somewhere, and I suppose try to avoid eye contact.
I couldn't access your link (slow internet connection today) but my understanding (from charities who supply toilets!) is that for people without toilets in India, the experience is very different for men compared to women.
I have heard that it is far more common to see a man squatting in public than a woman -women are expected (as far as possible) to only come out after dark to meet their needs.
One charity magazine printed a story of a teenage girl's delight in the new enclosed toilet in her area, as she was fed up with risking harrassment by men every time she needed to answer a call of nature.
Another charity (run entirely by well-off locals) went to women in a slum, and asked them specifically what would improve their quality of life. A toilet block was high on the list. It turned out to be very easy to fund, as the government had already allocated money for it, but the money had been "misplaced" by disinterested officials. The charity's tactic was to point out to the officials how much respect and gratitude they would receive for doing their public duty, and to ensure that once the amenities were built, the beneficent officials involved got to cut the ribbon and be photographed for the local papers on opening day!
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
Once the amenities were built, the beneficent officials involved got to cut the ribbon and be photographed for the local papers on opening day!
Doing what? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I don't see the need for sex segregated restrooms at all. Especially in small places that have single user bathrooms... why not just have two for either sex instead of one for each alone?
I can see it might be more problimatical with larger rooms with more accomidations, but as doubtingthomas said, if everything is inside a stall there shouldn't be any problem.
Nor me. I have worked in two schools in which the staff loos have been unisex. So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
Male teachers in some schools hardly have time to sit down - indeed to go to the loo in the first place.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
At my last place of work, the unisex loo was more popular simply because it was on the ground floor, therefore took much less effort to get there.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--I wouldn't feel safe in a multi-stall unisex bathroom. People do get assaulted in restrooms--and they're already half-dressed, anyway, at least the women.
--I worked at a small company that had one unisex one-stall bathroom. There were maybe 10-12 men and 2 women. Besides the aiming problem mentioned upthread, how shall I put this...different hormones have different smells. And one kind can have a very bad scent to people who have another kind--especially if one group is in the majority.
--There should be a way to provide facilities for transgendered folks, but I don't think group toilets for all is the answer. Americans, at least, tend to like privacy in the "throne room". If that's taken away to accommodate trans folks, non-trans will feel resentful--and that won't help acceptance of trans people.
They could use the unisex one-stallers for disabled folks--but that would implicitly label them as disabled. Maybe just some extra one-stallers, with both male and female symbols on the door to show unisex status??
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
What bothers me a bit about this discussion is that there's not (to my knowledge) anyone trans involved. Now that may be an inevitable consquence of the overwhelming majority of shipmates being cis, but I'm generally a bit unhappy whenever this kind of conversation becomes "what do we do with THEM?" where the group discussed isn't even in the discussion. This happens with all minority and marginalised groups to some extent, but it seems clear to me that the first priority is finding out from transpeople what they themselves think the solution should be, and working from there. Because the fact is that as a ciswoman, I might have an opinion on this (I don't particularly feel strongly either way) but as it doesn't have the same impact on my life as it would on a transperson's life, my opinion shouldn't be given the same weight.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
What bothers me a bit about this discussion is that there's not (to my knowledge) anyone trans involved. Now that may be an inevitable consquence of the overwhelming majority of shipmates being cis, but I'm generally a bit unhappy whenever this kind of conversation becomes "what do we do with THEM?" where the group discussed isn't even in the discussion. This happens with all minority and marginalised groups to some extent, but it seems clear to me that the first priority is finding out from transpeople what they themselves think the solution should be, and working from there. Because the fact is that as a ciswoman, I might have an opinion on this (I don't particularly feel strongly either way) but as it doesn't have the same impact on my life as it would on a transperson's life, my opinion shouldn't be given the same weight.
True. But it's good that the discussion is being had by people who presumably have no real interest in it. Many of us are informed by what our trans friends have to say, and by paying attention to their experiences. Not the same as being trans yourself, but it's the best we can do.
Actually, I came here today to post this link:
Gender-neutral bathrooms become law in Philly
[ 10. May 2013, 20:10: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
For people who may feel uneasy about using a urinal for whatever reason, they can use one of the cubicles.
This applies to me every now and then, because of the awkwardness of dealing with cycling shorts.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Eyes front, no talking! And hence no tension or discomfort.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A related topic would be the question of a parent taking his/or her child into a restroom that matches the gender of the parent but not of the child.
I often use the urinal with a toddler of either sex on my hip. Sure - if there's a family facility I'll probably use that, but there often isn't. IMO, the same rule applies to toilet facilities as to changing rooms. Once a child gets to be about 6 or 7, he or she should use the facilities appropriate to his or her sex. Younger than that, and they go in with whichever parent or other carer happens to be there.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Take the quiz to see if you're an, erm, whiz on this topic.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Some of them
don't.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've read the comments and followed the links, but none of them have shed any real light on the question I asked two days ago. I accept that it's a bit of a tangent, but can any of you out there help?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
As long as I can recall, I've had what my doctor calls "bashful bladder" - I can't urinate at normal urinals if someone else is in the room, or provide a specimen on demand. So I use a stall when necessary. Strange, because I went to a boys school and had no problems showering after a game of rugby, changing after swimming and so forth.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
WTF?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
WTF?
Have you cleaned round a loo (and the surrounding floor) after it's been used by men standing up?
Here is a good explanation as to why the pee doesn't always end up where it should.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
At work I have to do it standing due to lack of proper facilities. Seem to have learnt to switch between the two without developing a split personality or such like.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
Traitor! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Traitor!
Yeah I know .
Maybe us guys have just gotta accept that society has changed somewhat from the days of Henry V111 when blokes used to pee in the fire hearth.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
Traitor!
I'm a traitor the other way. I don't give a shit if the seat is left up, I am a big girl and can put it down myself.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
At work I have to do it standing due to lack of proper facilities. Seem to have learnt to switch between the two without developing a split personality or such like.
Why don't you just put the seat down afterwards? I hate to be too graphic about this, but I find its much easier to 'get it all out' standing up.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
At work I have to do it standing due to lack of proper facilities. Seem to have learnt to switch between the two without developing a split personality or such like.
Why don't you just put the seat down afterwards? I hate to be too graphic about this, but I find its much easier to 'get it all out' standing up.
No compromise. Leave the seat up.
I agree with "getting it all out".
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
Traitor!
I'm a traitor the other way. I don't give a shit if the seat is left up, I am a big girl and can put it down myself.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I keep dipping into this thread to see if anyone's going to answer my question. It looks as though they aren't.
Altogether, too much detail at the moment.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I keep dipping into this thread to see if anyone's going to answer my question. It looks as though they aren't.
Altogether, too much detail at the moment.
Is your question as to whether the number or transgender people needed to be accommodated might be insignificant?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I keep dipping into this thread to see if anyone's going to answer my question. It looks as though they aren't.
Altogether, too much detail at the moment.
Is your question as to whether the number or transgender people needed to be accommodated might be insignificant?
No. That's why I said it might be a tangent.
What I was asking was why some people seem to think that as an issue of principle, of social dogma, the rest of us, whether male or female, should be required to use the same loos, washing and changing facilities, whether we like it or not.
I'd say 'unsegregated' except that in some other countries that might be assumed to be talking about race not sex.
That isn't the case in the link about Massachusetts, where it's clear that what is being proposed is a third option rather like the individual loos for the disabled that currently exist - well, they do here. I don't whether they do in Massachusetts.
i.e. Why shouldn't men and women carry on being provided with separate loos etc, since most of us prefer it that way?
[ 13. May 2013, 19:26: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
Why don't you just put the seat down afterwards? I hate to be too graphic about this, but I find its much easier to 'get it all out' standing up.
Suppose I could do . However I've come around to this for the reason Boogie outlined . BTW I wear elasticated waistband trousers at home.
Could be over-thinking this but I wonder if a school of thought still exists among us fellas that goes something like -- why shouldn't the Missis clean up my pee, that's what I keep her for isn't it ? 'Treat em mean, keep em keep' an all that.
Such domestic philosophy , merited or not, probably warrants it's own thread .
< Sorry Enoch , I promise to butt out for being off topic.>
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What I was asking was why some people seem to think that as an issue of principle, of social dogma, the rest of us, whether male or female, should be required to use the same loos, washing and changing facilities, whether we like it or not.
I'd say 'unsegregated' except that in some other countries that might be assumed to be talking about race not sex.
That isn't the case in the link about Massachusetts, where it's clear that what is being proposed is a third option rather like the individual loos for the disabled that currently exist - well, they do here. I don't whether they do in Massachusetts.
i.e. Why shouldn't men and women carry on being provided with separate loos etc, since most of us prefer it that way?
People will be discomfited regardless of which solution is used. As far as what "most" prefer, there exists legislation which has challenged that for the benefit of minorities, so I am not certain it is a completely valid argument.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
It is clear that, for men, urinals are more efficient than cubicles, both in terms of time and space, so removing urinals in favour of unisex cubicles is a mistake in a high-traffic facility.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
What I was asking was why some people seem to think that as an issue of principle, of social dogma, the rest of us, whether male or female, should be required to use the same loos, washing and changing facilities, whether we like it or not.
I'd say 'unsegregated' except that in some other countries that might be assumed to be talking about race not sex.
...
i.e. Why shouldn't men and women carry on being provided with separate loos etc, since most of us prefer it that way?
I don't firmly believe that they shouldn't "carry on" with that option, but I do think that it's necessary for most of us to realize the ways in which some of us are impacted.
This (warning links to a site that might not be utterly Safe for Work) is a voice that I think needs to be heard on this:
quote:
Since my gender presentation is most often mistaken for a teenage boy, the thought of using public bathrooms is anxiety-creating for any number of reasons. I hate the second looks, the stares, those who are bold enough to ask me if I'm in the right place. The vitriol in the woman's eyes when we made contact in the mirror — how did I inspire such a feeling in her, the same I've seen in others who did not want me in that space? At the same time, I feel guilty and ashamed that my presence in the women's bathroom was read by this woman as a threat. I don't want to make anyone feel unsafe or uncomfortable, but my very existence within that space had done exactly what I'd wanted to avoid. The fact she was so upset by my being there, maybe even fearful enough, that she needed to summon the manager to identify me and remove me, is scary to me; something I did not want to do to this woman.
This person's ability to comfortably deal with an innate biological need is badly impacted by how we do and see things right now, and she's not alone. There may not be a solution that is eagerly embraced by and comfortable to everyone, but I think it's important that we keep thinking about this.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
One more difficulty of group unisex restrooms occurs to me. It's TMI, but I'll try to put it delicately.
Girls and women often have monthly hygiene matters to attend to. The results can be smelly and messy, and will likely be in a disposal in each stall. So men sharing these stalls will likely find out farrrrr more about these matters than they care to.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
We were goofing on that upthread.
As I said, in a closed stall all you are going to hear as far as 'woman stuff" is the rustling of a wrapper and the peeling of paper away from adhesive. Which if that noise is enough to make you collapse, stay away from Band-aids.
Other than that, one presumes sanitary products would be disposed of in the kind of covered container they currently are in women's rooms, which means the only way a guy would find out more than he wanted to is if he himself went on a fact-finding mission.
[ 14. May 2013, 04:10: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
Traitor!
I'm a traitor the other way. I don't give a shit if the seat is left up, I am a big girl and can put it down myself.
You'd think so, right? But then, you tell that to your Significant Other, he rejoices for a week in his freedom to leave the seat up, then a little voice whispers to him:"You're not arguing about the condition of the toilet. You are not proving your manliness via slovenliness. You must therefore actually pee on the seat to prove yourself worthy of testosterone."
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... you tell that to your Significant Other, he rejoices for a week in his freedom to leave the seat up, then a little voice whispers to him:"You're not arguing about the condition of the toilet. You are not proving your manliness via slovenliness. You must therefore actually pee on the seat to prove yourself worthy of testosterone."
Not just the seat - the floor too. I lived with three men until recently, and still do when the Boogielets visit.
Luckily we have three bathrooms now so I have my own - bliss!! We clean our own bathrooms so how much spray goes on to the seat/floor no problem whatever for me. The real problem, mind you, is unseen spray. My husband eventually agreed with me when he saw his in a shaft of sunlight (like dust in the air, it's usually invisible) He now sits down as a matter of course, unless in public loos.
(TMI anyone? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) )
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
We were goofing on that upthread.
As I said, in a closed stall all you are going to hear as far as 'woman stuff" is the rustling of a wrapper and the peeling of paper away from adhesive. Which if that noise is enough to make you collapse, stay away from Band-aids.
Other than that, one presumes sanitary products would be disposed of in the kind of covered container they currently are in women's rooms, which means the only way a guy would find out more than he wanted to is if he himself went on a fact-finding mission.
You'd think so. But, in many women's restrooms (and not just ones in gas stations or fast food restaurants), Things Aren't Attended To With Enough Frequency--thus overflowing their receptacles, and presenting problems with sights, smells, and sanitariness.
Not to mention women in the throes of cramps and PMS.
Or pumping breast milk with an electric gadget. (I know some workplaces have lactation rooms these days. But I've seen co-workers go through their routine in the main part of the restroom, for lack of any other place to pump their milk.)
Plus we often stay afterwards to chat, and I gather men usually don't do that.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
If the garbage receptacles are overflowing, I would presume everything else would be overflowing as well. (see Boogies' comment above.)Sanitary products would be the least of it, or at least on an even keel with the rest.
And I hate to keep returning to this vivid example but it would astound me if a guy would have a problem sitting in the stall next to a woman moaning from cramps-- how PMS would effect a bathroom experience is beyond me, unless you are implying that the woman would go on some sort of rampage and tear off toilet seats, to which I say, "I can't believe it's a woman suggesting that"--rather than, say, the stall next to a person of either gender (or mixed) who has just had a bad experience with a plate of nachos.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Aaand thank you ever so much for that mental image, dear Kelly.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
As I said, in a closed stall all you are going to hear as far as 'woman stuff" is the rustling of a wrapper and the peeling of paper away from adhesive. Which if that noise is enough to make you collapse, stay away from Band-aids.
Mooncups can be a bit ... ummm... squelchy sounding.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
I don't think it's disgusting or unusual. But I also know it's not silent. I concur with The Guardian "Some undignified suction noises are a small price to pay" for the other massive advantages of the Mooncup.
[ 14. May 2013, 15:35: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Mooncups can be a bit ... ummm... squelchy sounding.
yeah but how many people do you know who actually use mooncups?
Plus which, a lot of other stuff sounds just as squelchy. I don't mean to keep banging this drum but I am really questioning the whole "Menstruation is the yuckiest thing going on in a public restroom" thing.
IOW, what Gwai said.
[ 14. May 2013, 17:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Well, I use a mooncup, and I think they're pretty widely used - you certainly see them for sale in enough shops. Maybe five / ten years ago, they'd have been unusual, but not now.
I don't think menstruation is yukky - but I also don't think it's necessarily silent. It's the audible aspect I'm arguing - not the yukky aspect.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Hmmm. Wonder if that's a pond thing. People seem unwilling to let go of their tampons around here.
Also, yeah I sensed you weren't one of the "yucky" crowd, but that seems to be the unspoken assumption in some of the comments up thread-- that men will disintegrate at any exposure to any hint of menstrual activity. Maybe we don't' give men enough credit to adjust. ANd my point is there is not all that much to adjust to.
Personally , I am with the "single occupant only" crowd; I have worked in facilities where that approach is taken, and it solves all kinds of problems-- the diaper problem, the accessibility problem, the acoustic ambiance problem--oops, but you still might see a Tampax wrapper in the garbage.
[ 14. May 2013, 18:10: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If the garbage receptacles are overflowing, I would presume everything else would be overflowing as well. (see Boogies' comment above.)Sanitary products would be the least of it, or at least on an even keel with the rest.
Not necessarily. In the UK, emptying the receptacles for sanitary products is often contracted out to a specialist company, which comes round every now and then, according to perceived need, so they can be badly overflowing while the normal garbage receptacles are emptied daily.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
OK.
The challenge in rural parts of California is that septic tanks often can't handle what city folk are used to flushing, so rural residents fall into the habit of putting the paper into the trash, and not flushing it at all. Boy, did that take some getting used to when I first came across it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Enoch, I think people are trying to find a solution to bathrooms that works for transgender people and hopefully genderqueer too. Same sex would be one solution. Also, it would save a lot of space or reduce waiting in bathrooms.
Thank you Gwai and Infinite_monkey for elucidating what the problem is seen to be. I have to say that the rest of the thread since, makes it abundantly clear that whatever the question, compelling everybody else to use the same loos is the wrong answer.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Personally , I am with the "single occupant only" crowd; I have worked in facilities where that approach is taken, and it solves all kinds of problems-- the diaper problem, the accessibility problem, the acoustic ambiance problem--oops, but you still might see a Tampax wrapper in the garbage.
But you do lose efficiency vs a room with urinals for men, and you lose efficiency by having enough footprint for one handbasin per stall, and what do you do - put a diaper changing table in every one?
Single-occupancy unisex is fine for low-occupancy facilities - the kind of place where you get one or two cubicles here and there - but doesn't scale efficiently.
Shared handbasins with unisex cubicles? I just don't know. At a previous job, women used to arrive in the morning to find one woman cyclist stripped to the waist at the handbasins giving herself a rub down with a flannel after getting sweaty on the way in.In my current job there are several men who like to run at lunchtime, and do the same thing. Yes, it would be better if we had showers, but we don't.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If the garbage receptacles are overflowing, I would presume everything else would be overflowing as well. (see Boogies' comment above.)Sanitary products would be the least of it, or at least on an even keel with the rest.
Not necessarily. In the UK, emptying the receptacles for sanitary products is often contracted out to a specialist company, which comes round every now and then, according to perceived need, so they can be badly overflowing while the normal garbage receptacles are emptied daily.
Yes. I've run into it in expensive office buildings. I think that, in the US, all the end-of-day bathroom cleaning is done by one group. But, well, some days there may be a need for more frequent attention, and that doesn't happen.
Re Kelly's responses upthread:
I wasn't suggesting that women all turn into raving PMS monsters in the restroom. (Though there are times...) Nor did I mean that we tear up the restroom. (Though sometimes stalls show signs of ill use, including doors and seats removed.)
I'm not saying that the used monthly products are worse than anything else in a bathroom, or that menstruation is dirty. BUT it's something that guys tend not to be used to nor comfortable around; and it's something that women tend to be both private and intense about.
So if you throw all these factors into one mixed-use restroom, with people finding out more about their co-workers than they ever wanted to know and with their own privacy being impinged, I don't think it will work well.
As I said upthread, I'm all for trans folks having their needs met in a respectful way. I just don't think that multi-stall unisex restrooms for all are they way to do it.
![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
If the garbage receptacles are overflowing, I would presume everything else would be overflowing as well. (see Boogies' comment above.)Sanitary products would be the least of it, or at least on an even keel with the rest.
Not necessarily. In the UK, emptying the receptacles for sanitary products is often contracted out to a specialist company, which comes round every now and then, according to perceived need, so they can be badly overflowing while the normal garbage receptacles are emptied daily.
Yes. I've run into it in expensive office buildings. I think that, in the US, all the end-of-day bathroom cleaning is done by one group. But, well, some days there may be a need for more frequent attention, and that doesn't happen.
Re Kelly's responses upthread:
I wasn't suggesting that women all turn into raving PMS monsters in the restroom. (Though there are times...) Nor did I mean that we tear up the restroom. (Though sometimes stalls show signs of ill use, including doors and seats removed.)
I'm not saying that the used monthly products are worse than anything else in a bathroom, or that menstruation is dirty. BUT it's something that guys tend not to be used to nor comfortable around; and it's something that women tend to be both private and intense about.
So if you throw all these factors into one mixed-use restroom, with people finding out more about their co-workers than they ever wanted to know and with their own privacy being impinged, I don't think it will work well.
As I said upthread, I'm all for trans folks having their needs met in a respectful way. I just don't think that multi-stall unisex restrooms for all are they way to do it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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