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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Bathroom Gender Rules Be Enforced at All?
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
On one side, you have transgender persons, one of the most persecuted groups in society, wanting to go to the bathroom where they feel they belong without fear of harassment or legal action, and on the other side you have conservative Muslims, Haredic Jews, and other social conservatives who may refuse to use public restrooms if they feel that someone born to the opposite biological sex as they could go inside. It is clear to me that the transgender community is the one facing the greater discrimination here since many of them frequently feel their lives are at risk (or are at risk of committing suicide due to the oppression they face). However, I am unsure how the law and the policies of the owners of buildings with public restrooms should address this in a way that is fair to everyone. Should gender segregation in public bathrooms exist at all? If it does exist, should it be enforced? If transgender people are allowed to use the bathroom of their choice (as I believe they should be able to), should a person's verbally identifying as transgender be enough to allow him or her to use whatever bathroom she or he chooses? If gender segregation in restrooms should be enforced, what guidelines should be followed in deciding when to enforce it?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
What about genderfuck bathrooms? A lavatory for people who identify as purely androgynous? Unisex commodes that can be used by both sexes? Entirely private spaces where gender segregation isn't an issue, because there's no communal area at all?
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Most people probably aren't going to be paying much attention if a person dressed and looking female goes into the ladies' room. The problem is going to arise when a person who to all appearances is male demands a right to enter the women's restroom because she identifies as female.
Most people would probably be creeped out by that. I don't know if I'd blame them.
So it seems to me that the best solution might be a third, non-gendered restroom.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Trying to construct an ordering of oppression never works out. Is a rich Lesbian of Color more oppressed than a parapalegic pagan?
What about people whose religious sensibilities forbid them sharing public bathrooms with people of other religions?
What do the religious people you mentioned do when they are out in the woods where Pope and Bear and Transgender people share the space?
I had a friend who talked about being impressed about some bathrooms he encountered in Germany. There was a men's door and a women's door, but they lead into the same shared bathroom with stalls. Only the proprieties were being observed.
So perhaps the solution for places with
religious sensibilities is to provide single person pay toilets that are self cleaning. They are made for city street use.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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doubtingthomas
Shipmate
# 14498
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Posted
A local pub used to have 3 single-room loos, marked "male", "female", and "not sure". Sadly, under new management, these were converted into 2 conventional two-cubicle units.
Personally, I think entirely non-gendered bathrooms* should not be a problem, since anything that involves a level of undress either is or can be done in a cubicle - the public urinals coomon in gents' bathrooms are not really necessary; toilets can be used fot the same purpose, or urinals can be put in cublicles.
Even sinks can be put into a cublicle with a toilet (and already somtimes are); so issues of privacy and concerns over gender mixing could be solved with interior design and willingness.
(Furthermore, unisex batchrooms would also help alleviate the much more trivial, but widespread problem of long queues at the ladies' while hardly anyone uses the gents'...)
*I use this in prefernce to "toilet" to avoid confusion with the indiviual piece of hardware
Posts: 266 | From: A Small Island | Registered: Jan 2009
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
I don't see the need for sex segregated restrooms at all. Especially in small places that have single user bathrooms... why not just have two for either sex instead of one for each alone?
I can see it might be more problimatical with larger rooms with more accomidations, but as doubtingthomas said, if everything is inside a stall there shouldn't be any problem.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
I've only used a unisex bathroom once (that I can remember) and it felt odd watching women leaving the stalls, walking over to wash their hands and doing all sorts of quite private things. I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
Maybe that's what 21st century gender studies is all about though - destroying the mystery of being a man/woman.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
Ok, I've reread my post... I wasn't hanging around and watching people (from a darkened corner). There was something of a queue and everyone had to wait. Which basically means that unisex toilets would mean that men will have to wait just as long as women do to use the bog.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
We're facing this problem at my work now, with a trangender (F to M) student who wants to use the men's washroom and feels that's more appropriate for him. Not all the guys are comfortable with it as they tend to think of him as a girl dressed in boy's clothing, and our worry is that if we allow/encourage him to use the bathroom he prefers (which as we understand it he has every right to do, and we ought to allow) we cannot guarantee his safety if some other young man takes offense and decides to beat him up in the bathroom.
Our ideal solution is to get a single-person washroom put in between the men's and women's washrooms, which would be good for transgender people and the several others we have who for various reasons (anxiety, IBS, etc) are uncomfortable going into a public restroom with multiple stalls, but we've been told the the cost of adding this extra washroom would be prohibitive.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
For facilities which don't have a high volume of traffic, I'm in favour of individual non-specific bathrooms (complete with sink and bin in each) over sex-specific bathrooms with stalls. Just so long as they are equipped with a proper door and are actually a separate bathroom, I don't think it would be good to simply remove urinals and declassify the high volume bathrooms.
Most places in Australia already have them even if they do also have the high volume bathrooms with stalls and urinals. I'm talking the larger individual bathrooms that equipped with facilities for people with disabilities and for parents/caregivers to take care of small children. It's not too far a stretch to give everybody individual bathrooms.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
After all, who has separate toilet facilities for males and females in their own homes? I would like to see unisex facilities with individual handbasins etc. Let's do away with urinals which always seem rather unhygenic to me.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
Urinals are amazingly convenient!
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
After all, who has separate toilet facilities for males and females in their own homes?
Who invites strangers into their home to piddle and poo?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
After all, who has separate toilet facilities for males and females in their own homes?
Who invites strangers into their home to piddle and poo?
Have a friend who (at the age of 14 or something) was lost in a city far from home, randomly knocked on some old dear's door and asked to use her loo. She was happy to oblige and gave him a cup of tea too.
Takes all sorts.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Let's do away with urinals which always seem rather unhygenic to me.
I don't think they're any worse than a toilet.
You certainly don't get the same amount of mist sprayed into the air when flushing them, and the majority of new shared men's bathroom facilities in Australia are now using bacteria-based flushless systems to cut down on water use. Some boys have trouble aiming, but that's no less a problem with a urinal than it is with a toilet.
The big plus with urinals is that at a large place like a stadium, they enable the majority of men to cycle through the toilets much faster than women. This in turn means that the men's facilities can be smaller than the women's (a ratio between 1:1.5 and 1:2 ratio is recommended these days) to equalise the rate they move through. Removing urinals and replacing them with stalls would just slow down everybody because the male:female ratio would have to be equalised or (at stadia which attract a majority male audience) even tipped in favour of the men and attract intolerable shrieking from the sexism-only-hurts-women crowd.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Have a friend who (at the age of 14 or something) was lost in a city far from home, randomly knocked on some old dear's door and asked to use her loo.
I respectfully submit that having to use the loo is the least of troubles for a 14-year-old lost in a strange city far from home.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Have a friend who (at the age of 14 or something) was lost in a city far from home, randomly knocked on some old dear's door and asked to use her loo.
I respectfully submit that having to use the loo is the least of troubles for a 14-year-old lost in a strange city far from home.
He was dragged home a couple of days later, no harm done and a lot of funny stories to tell. But yep, it could have been tragic.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
While I can see the point of the op, and recognise the problem, there is no way known that I want to share a toilet with men - the possibilities for harassment are pretty horrendous in most work places. I would not have a problem with someone transgendered who identified as a woman, since that is how they identify: but your average "alpha male" hanging around making comments? Nope. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Of the possible solutions, I think the 3 separate facilities is probably the best, but recognise that cost is an issue. However, as TGC said above, most large public spaces here do have the third toilet, so it could be doable.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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Athrawes
Ship's parrot
# 9594
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Posted
Sorry, double posting to add: I know the issue of harassment goes both ways. Women are just as capable of harassing men using shared facilities. My response was just a gut reaction to the idea of unisex toilets.
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Explaining why is going to need a moment, since along the way we must take in the Ancient Greeks, the study of birds, witchcraft, 19thC Vaudeville and the history of baseball. Michael Quinion.
Posts: 2966 | From: somewhere with a book shop | Registered: Jun 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Yahoo tried unisex facilities at one of their campuses. They reverted to separate after a short time. I am thinking one of the issues was cleanliness. They aimed to solve an issue, but an issue arose from aim.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Don't do away with urinals in public places. They take up less room than cubicles and also speed up the "flow of traffic". (Lord it is hard to write on this thread without some form of "double-entendre" creeping in).
But I can see an argument in favour of changing the design of public loos. Instead of M/F segregation, you could have U/C (Urinals/Cubicles) segregation. Make the cubicles and associated washroom facilities unisex. Can't see anything wrong with that. You've got some privacy apart from the handwashing, and even that could be resolved by providing facilities for each cubicle.
The main argument against that is probably cost, but it could be introduced gradually, for new builds and renovations.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
I live in the middle of rural nowhere, remote Victoria in Oz. My parish is 5 hrs drive wide thru mountains and national parks. Most public loos are in camp grounds and are very basic. Generally just one cubical.
Or we use trees and bushes.
But we manage!
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yahoo tried unisex facilities at one of their campuses. They reverted to separate after a short time. I am thinking one of the issues was cleanliness. They aimed to solve an issue, but an issue arose from aim.
Our aim is to keep these loos clean. Our aim depends on yours.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I don't think that you can say to transgendered people, "There's an accessible toilet for the disabled, but you must use it too, because other people using shared facilities might feel a bit icky about you." You have to provide something less discriminatory.
One other issue of segregated facilities is the question of where a parent of one gender takes a child of another gender. This is where the accessible toilet can be useful for parents who need to assist, because of the size. But if a father is out shopping with a daughter who can toilet herself, but may need some assistance, so he needs to be outside the cubicle, where does he go? Take her through the urinals to a cubicle in the men's, or into the women's?
No clear answers, but the binary divide does have an impact.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I don't see the need for sex segregated restrooms at all. Especially in small places that have single user bathrooms... why not just have two for either sex instead of one for each alone?
I've long wondered this. I mean if it's a one-hole, and each person locks the door until they're done, why in the hell does it need to have a specification as to which sex can or cannot use it?
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I've only used a unisex bathroom once (that I can remember) and it felt odd watching women leaving the stalls, walking over to wash their hands and doing all sorts of quite private things. I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
I'm having a hard time seeing what's glamorous about hand-washing.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yahoo tried unisex facilities at one of their campuses. They reverted to separate after a short time. I am thinking one of the issues was cleanliness. They aimed to solve an issue, but an issue arose from aim.
This would seem to suggest something of a bifurcation of humanity:
Males: are unclean and don't care about cleanliness
Females: are clean and care about cleanliness
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
There's nothing glamorous about handwashing. Or farting. Especially not farting.
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"He brought me into the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."
Posts: 245 | Registered: Apr 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
I don't think that you can say to transgendered people, "There's an accessible toilet for the disabled, but you must use it too, because other people using shared facilities might feel a bit icky about you." You have to provide something less discriminatory. ...
No, with a big N or in capital letters. That's accepting that it is legitimately derogatory to someone else to associate them in any way with those with disabilities. That is seriously insulting to those with the more usual disabilities.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think the assumption that mixed gender toilets will result in harassment or people getting beaten up is a) depressing and b) solved by having a toilet attendant. I realise b) is expensive, but could be implemented in high volume areas - and could solve any ongoing cleaning problems too.
[ 04. May 2013, 09:19: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
That's exactly why I suggested single bathrooms (with sinks included so it can have a door straight off there into the corridor) rather than shared mixed-sex facilities.
As I was in the city today, I noticed that public toilets are starting to head this way as all of our parks now have the EXELOO automated self-cleaning single bathrooms instead of toilet blocks. They can look a bit silly at times, but they can also be built into existing structures as well as being on their own in the middle of a park.
The issue with directing people to use the single disability-friendly bathrooms could be made less discriminatory by referring to them as "single bathroom facilities" and placing a notice requesting that people give priority to people who use mobility aids and parents with small children.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This would seem to suggest something of a bifurcation of humanity:
Males: are unclean and don't care about cleanliness
Females: are clean and care about cleanliness
Having worked in a place where we had two single bathrooms that were not sex-specific, I can assure you that this is most definitely not true. For kids maybe, but for adults it's closer to going the other way.
[ 04. May 2013, 10:09: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Ha! I disagree.
As a student teacher I went into a (presumably female)staff toilet and was surprised at the unpleasant smell. Like a gents, I thought. On my way out I met a surprised looking man coming in, and bless him, he didn't comment. Neither did I.
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I realised later I should have trusted my nose!
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ha! I disagree.
As a student teacher I went into a (presumably female)staff toilet and was surprised at the unpleasant smell. Like a gents, I thought. On my way out I met a surprised looking man coming in, and bless him, he didn't comment. Neither did I.
I realised later I should have trusted my nose!
The place I was commenting on was a school too. The staff toilets no longer had the sex-specific signage on them because it was a 14/2 ratio of female/male staff. Both of the male staff were away on a camp at the time that I was working there temporarily and had to use the toilets, there was no escaping the blame that time.
I do agree with you when it comes to children's toilets though, it takes time to get used to aiming.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Women can be as unclean as men.* It is a function plumbing design which generally causes uncaring men to generate more mess than uncaring women.
By TGC
quote:
do agree with you when it comes to children's toilets though, it takes time to get used to aiming.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Indeed, some take decades.
*oh, could I tell you stories....
[ 04. May 2013, 14:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I've only used a unisex bathroom once (that I can remember) and it felt odd watching women leaving the stalls, walking over to wash their hands and doing all sorts of quite private things. I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
Maybe that's what 21st century gender studies is all about though - destroying the mystery of being a man/woman.
Nope, trying hard. But still can't imagine what it is a woman can do - in the normal way of things! - in a public convenience that should 'kill the glamour'. Of course, if we tried to think of her as a person, rather than a 'glamorous' woman, that might reduce the problem we have with facing up to the fact she goes to the toilet like other human beings.
And what are all these 'all sorts of private things' that these women you saw, were doing in the public part of the lavatory that so de-glamorized them? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Having said that, I would prefer segregated loos myself. Not because I think they're needed as such. Just because most times I've had to access the man's toilet, they're usually much more of a sty than the woman's. No offence, guys!
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
This may have been covered on the ship before, but there was a primary school in Colorado where a male-to-female transexual girl was treated by a girl by the students and teachers but was asked to use a single gender-neutral bathroom or the teacher's bathrooms instead of the large girls' bathrooms. The school district justified it by saying that when the girl was older (ie, past puberty), some of the other female students might feel uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with her. The parents and child were so offended that they started homeschooling the girl pending a lawsuit trying to force the school to let her use the girls' bathroom.
So a third, single, gender neutral bathroom, even if it is not associated with the disabled or any other group, still feels discriminatory. It makes FTM transsexuals feel like less than a man and MTF transsexuals feel like less than a woman.
A lawmaker in Arizona proposed a law that would require that people, when asked, show that the gender on their government-issued ID matches the bathroom they use (transsexuals in that state are able to change the gender on their ID after surgery). That is an awfully discriminatory law and I doubt it will pass.
Of course some people may identify as intersex (biologically neither entirely male or female, at least in phenotype) or androgynous (not identifying as entirely male or entirely female, regardless of their biological sex at birth) and feel equally at home (or not at home) in either sex's bathrooms.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
A lawmaker in Arizona proposed a law that would require that people, when asked, show that the gender on their government-issued ID matches the bathroom they use (transsexuals in that state are able to change the gender on their ID after surgery). That is an awfully discriminatory law and I doubt it will pass.
Never underestimate the bigotry of the Arizona legislature.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
I've been dotting in and out of public loos for a good few decades, and I can't say I've ever devoted much time to wondering whether any other users are, were, or ever have been, differently gendered. If the essential bit is clean, has paper and a door that locks, what odds?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Ok, so now the Arizona law is advancing in their legislature after being altered so it just prevents private establishments from being sued or penalized for not allowing transgender persons to use the bathroom of their choice on their property. It is still wrong. Sorry for posting out of date info above.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Nope, trying hard. But still can't imagine what it is a woman can do - in the normal way of things! - in a public convenience that should 'kill the glamour'.
Nor can I; I've been wondering about it since I first read this thread several hours ago. Particularly "private things" done outside the cubicle... you really think we can look and smell this good all the time without recourse to hairbrush, perfume spray, lipstick and checking the mirror for things between the teeth at regular intervals?
I confess to not having given the question of transgender people using public toilets a great deal of thought and had kind of assumed there wouldn't be a problem with them using the gender that they identify with. How do Muslims and Haredic Jews manage about sharing bathrooms at home?
Nen - who unglamourously washes her hands at frequent intervals throughout the day.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
A lawmaker in Arizona proposed a law that would require that people, when asked, show that the gender on their government-issued ID matches the bathroom they use (transsexuals in that state are able to change the gender on their ID after surgery). That is an awfully discriminatory law and I doubt it will pass.
If you don't have your ID with you, do they make you hold it till you get home? Wait, don't tell me, I'll bet this law was mooted by a Republican.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But I can see an argument in favour of changing the design of public loos. Instead of M/F segregation, you could have U/C (Urinals/Cubicles) segregation. Make the cubicles and associated washroom facilities unisex. Can't see anything wrong with that. You've got some privacy apart from the handwashing, and even that could be resolved by providing facilities for each cubicle.
Nice. So men who need to pee can go into a room with nothing but urinals and get out pretty quickly, while women who need to pee have to wait in line for a stall where now the odds are twice as many people are taking a long, smelly dump? (I hope that's not too unglamorous of me to say.)
A few weeks ago, I attended a lecture and after, darted into the restroom just to wash my hands (I had been late to the lecture and hadn't had a chance to wash the public transit off my hands). I went over to the sink and washed up, noticing, but somehow not registering, the line of men facing a wall over my left shoulder... until I started to leave, and passed a man who was headed for the sink. "Oh my gosh, I'm in the wrong room! I'm so sorry!" I gasped. "No problem," he presumed to say on behalf of all the men in the room. Oops. I should confess I'm not normally very concerned with gender and really consider myself androgynous. I do wonder how aware most of the men were of my presence there, at least before I said anything!
At work we have a shared bathroom in the vestry - it used to be a men's room back in the day when only men would be in a sacristry/vestry, so there are urinals in it. Once several years ago I was in there washing my hands (again with the hand-washing!) and a male priest came in, and, while chatting with me, almost started peeing in a urinal. I honestly wouldn't have cared. He caught himself, though, and said, "Oh, I should probably wait..." Normally, though, people who go into that bathroom close the door, and others knock first to see if it's currently a men's or women's room.
So for me, anyway, you can imagine, I don't care if a transperson wants to use the same restroom I'm in. I was in a class, though, with a transguy who hadn't come out to anyone else in the class, and I did notice that during break, he waited to use the restroom until the other men had. He was pre-op (if that's the right term for someone who never intended to have reassignment surgery anyway). I can imagine for transmen it must be harder, since, at least pre-op, they have to always use a stall, and that might be considered unmasculine. Then again, I have no idea whether some men prefer stalls to pee in and walk right past the urinals, because other than that once, I haven't exactly frequented men's rooms (at least not while they're in use!).
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
A related topic would be the question of a parent taking his/or her child into a restroom that matches the gender of the parent but not of the child.
I know that it's not wise nowadays to ask a stranger to help one's child in this regard, and that there really isn't any other option, but on those occasions when I've visited the loo and seen it, I've felt very uncomfortable indeed. I really don't want a strange child not of my gender to be present near where I am relieving myself.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
In Creamtealand, most of the new public loos are unisex. They get around the safety aspect by having a door that leads directly out onto the street, rather than a set of cubicles in one building. Some of the more rural loos can be in quite quiet and lonely places, so this is the only viable alternative to avoid people feeling fearful.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Years ago, when the all male suite organized college dormitory went co-ed the first step was all women suites.
There was a lovey photograph in the dormitory newspaper of an amenity in the ladies room in their suite which was missing in the other suites;
a wall mounted porcelain flower vase with plumbed in watering. It has a lovely arrangement of flowers in it ;-)
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Chas of the Dicker
Apprentice
# 12769
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Posted
The Loo at my theological college had, for a time, a sign over the light switch which proclaimed:
"A light to enlighten the genitals"
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Chas of Blacklands
If you know exactly what you are going to do, why do it? (Picasso)
Posts: 35 | From: Hastings, East Sussex, UK | Registered: Jun 2007
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A related topic would be the question of a parent taking his/or her child into a restroom that matches the gender of the parent but not of the child.
I know that it's not wise nowadays to ask a stranger to help one's child in this regard, and that there really isn't any other option, but on those occasions when I've visited the loo and seen it, I've felt very uncomfortable indeed. I really don't want a strange child not of my gender to be present near where I am relieving myself.
Best resolved by the parent and child using the accessible facility, which will almost never be marked as being sex-specific and will always open directly. Many of them actively encourage this use and will provide a fold-out table and disposable paper covers to allow a parent/carer to change a small child's nappy.
Some places even take this a step further and include extra rooms which are exclusively designed for parents with children. I've only seen this a few times though, at major shopping centres and a medium-large church which got it funded by the government as part of a multi-use facility also used by the adjacent school for assemblies and performances.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
"Kill the glamour"? Really?
Maybe if you tried thinking of women as people, you'd have less of a problem with this.
I don't really see a need for sex-segregated loos, myself.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Like some guy waving his wang at a wall with his pants bunched around his hips is the prettiest picture in the world.
Do you know that first public toilets were not only unisex, but open-plan? Bunch of delicate little hothouse flowers we are, nowadays.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But I can see an argument in favour of changing the design of public loos. Instead of M/F segregation, you could have U/C (Urinals/Cubicles) segregation. Make the cubicles and associated washroom facilities unisex. Can't see anything wrong with that. You've got some privacy apart from the handwashing, and even that could be resolved by providing facilities for each cubicle.
Nice. So men who need to pee can go into a room with nothing but urinals and get out pretty quickly, while women who need to pee have to wait in line for a stall where now the odds are twice as many people are taking a long, smelly dump? (I hope that's not too unglamorous of me to say.)
You missed the redesign bit. In the same space, you have the same number of cubicles as before in segregated M/F toilets, only under this idea they're all available for use by either sex. Greater flexibility.
In practice, you get loads of unoccupied cubicles in public men-only toilets lots of the time.
In this kind of combo solution, you actually reduce cubicle waiting time for women - though you might increase it for men.
Trust me, that's the way it would work. Urinals keep men out of cubicles, speeds things up for women. At the cost of sharing the same smelly dump zone. Simples.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
Stalls with a lock. No urinals.
And wash your hands.
And, for Pete's sake, flush.
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I want privacy.
Visual, auditory and olfactory privacy.
Exiting my stall in a clearly labelled ladies loo in a bus station 3 weeks ago (and on my way to church!) I was surprised by a young (18-25) year old man "washing his hands and face". That's what he told me in reply to my assertive "What are you doing here?!". He got very nasty actually and I was a little shaken.
Then 2 min later 3 other young men came in and I physically pushed them out and barred the doorway with out-stretched arms gripping the door frame. (More hand-washing!)
There was a crowd of women inside - including older women and women more religiously observant than I. The presence of young men full of testosterone and energy-drink-caffeine-fuelled aggression is not only unpleasant but unexpected and therefore disorienting and frightening.
And I say that as an old time porn-shop smashing feminist so I am no shrinking violet.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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