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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Bathroom Gender Rules Be Enforced at All?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... The parents and child were so offended that they started homeschooling the girl pending a lawsuit trying to force the school to let her use the girls' bathroom. ...
One does occasionally wonder whether some people go through life looking for opportunities to be offended.
There are always lawyers willing to oblige - for a fee.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
There's been previous discussion of the specific transgender case on this thread.
Enoch, to save you or anyone else wading through it all, here is Nicole Maines' dad talking about the family's experiences. Clearly he and his wife did not go out of their way to find an opportunity to be offended. He's a loving parent who has been on a journey.
[The Maines lost the court case, BTW. I don't think they lost the argument.]
[ 05. May 2013, 09:00: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
My apologies Barnabas. I did not realise this had arisen out of another thread. I had followed the earlier part of the other thread but lost interest, largely given up on it, and missed this reference completely. I withdraw my comment on this case (except for the bit about lawyers). It shows how one could so easily jump to a conclusion that looked fairly feasible based on the limited information in this thread.
[ 05. May 2013, 18:11: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Have a friend who (at the age of 14 or something) was lost in a city far from home, randomly knocked on some old dear's door and asked to use her loo.
I respectfully submit that having to use the loo is the least of troubles for a 14-year-old lost in a strange city far from home.
Unless, like me, one suffers from moderate to severe irritable bowel disease!! Mine is often induced by stress of even the mildest sort... I'd say being lost in a city far from home qualifies for a bout of I.B.D. ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
Yes, because God forbid we see women as living, breathing, real people who shit and piss! Oh, some women fart and vomit, too. So much for glamour. Hope that doesn't kill your romantic notions. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
The5thMary: Yes, because God forbid we see women as living, breathing, real people who shit and piss!
I'm sorry, but I've been led to believe that women only go to the bathroom to powder their noses.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pia
Shipmate
# 17277
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Posted
I have recently authorised the 'rebranding' of one of the loos in the building where I work as a 'non gender-specific' loo. We have segregated men's and women's facilities already, and some accessible loos, and one or two single-user facilities.* I am very happy for these to be clearly signposted as non gender-specific. Anyone who wants single-sex can use the single-sex loos, but trans people, people who need to use the one nearest to hand, and people who don't - if you'll pardon the pun - give a shit, can use the non gender-specific loo, without it needing to be specifically designated as being there for trans people and thus in some way 'labelling' its users.
*I do realise that we are lucky to have such an embarrassment of riches in the restroom department!
Posts: 151 | Registered: Aug 2012
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I also reckon that bogs for men, women and unisex are good ideas. I know that us men tend to be quicker than women, but I don't want women present when I've having a piss. Therefore, having extra bogs are useful.
In Taize, by the way, I was responsible for cleaning both male and female areas. There was no difference in cleanliness between then.
In my private life I notice that, as women don't tend to lift the toilet seat up, they don't notice the marks they leave and therefore do not clean them.
Still, coming back to the point, as pointed out here, such is our binary hegemony that we need to discuss this. Having three sets of bogs can be defeatism. Funny, saying that, I knew a male-to-female transexual and I wouldn't mind her being present when I was having a piss.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
Both of my two previous churches had conversions to add toilet facilities; one in a space off the church lobby and one in the hall. Each conversion added two toilet cubicles, neither of them gender-specific and without complete air separation (dividers did not go all the way to the ceiling; I can't remember if they went all the way to the floor).
I didn't like using either of them. I'm okay with using public toilet cubicles, but I didn't like the idea of Granny Miggins hearing, smelling or otherwise being aware of me in there! It's probably more because I knew Granny Miggins; I think I would have been less uncomfortable if it was Mr Miggins in the neighbouring cubicle, but still uncomfortable.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Bernard Mahler
Shipmate
# 10852
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Posted
Has this thread got rather bogged down?
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"What does it matter? All is grace" Georges Bernanos
Posts: 622 | From: Auckland New Zealand | Registered: Jan 2006
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yahoo tried unisex facilities at one of their campuses. They reverted to separate after a short time. I am thinking one of the issues was cleanliness. They aimed to solve an issue, but an issue arose from aim.
That is interesting. I never knew that. They never did anything like that at HQ.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
The5thMary: Yes, because God forbid we see women as living, breathing, real people who shit and piss!
I'm sorry, but I've been led to believe that women only go to the bathroom to powder their noses.
And chat. Don't forget the chatting (which I suppose might be another reason why women want separate facilities ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ).
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Yahoo tried unisex facilities at one of their campuses. They reverted to separate after a short time. I am thinking one of the issues was cleanliness. They aimed to solve an issue, but an issue arose from aim.
That is interesting. I never knew that. They never did anything like that at HQ.
My apologies, I meant to say YouTube, specifically YouTube Space.
[ 06. May 2013, 17:34: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
la vie en rouge: And chat. Don't forget the chatting (which I suppose might be another reason why women want separate facilities ).
In fact, this would be a good reason why I would favour them too. I like some room for quiet contemplation when I'm alone with my, erm, willy.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
At the moment, when entering a female only loo block, I do not expect to see a man in there. Therefore, if I was to see one, alarm bells in my mind would start ringing and I'd make a very quick exit, assuming the reason to be malign.
If the loo block was unisex, how would I know if the man's intentions were malign or whether he just needed to use the facilities?
(Remember I'm talking particularly from the viewpoint of loos in quiet rural areas.)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
At the moment, when entering a female only loo block, I do not expect to see a man in there. Therefore, if I was to see one, alarm bells in my mind would start ringing and I'd make a very quick exit, assuming the reason to be malign.
If the loo block was unisex, how would I know if the man's intentions were malign or whether he just needed to use the facilities?
(Remember I'm talking particularly from the viewpoint of loos in quiet rural areas.)
How do you know you aren't going to get jumped by the guy in the bus shelter, or the sole male attendant in the garage, or the male standing behind the cashpoint etc. What is it that makes you uniquely vulnerable washing your hands ? (Or males in a shared toilet facility likely to be much more dangerous than those in other kind of shared facility.)
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
la vie en rouge: And chat. Don't forget the chatting (which I suppose might be another reason why women want separate facilities ).
In fact, this would be a good reason why I would favour them too. I like some room for quiet contemplation when I'm alone with my, erm, willy.
Generally people don't try to talk to you when you are in a cubicle. (I think the most conversation I have had in a public toilet has been, 'there's no loo roll in that one' or 'excuse me' on the way to the hand drier.)
[ 06. May 2013, 21:30: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Generally people don't try to talk to you when you are in a cubicle. (I think the most conversation I have had in a public toilet has been, 'there's no loo roll in that one' or 'excuse me' on the way to the hand drier.)
Whilst stood queueing in the Ladies in a pub once, I had a conversation with a girl in a cubicle. Unfortunately, she refused to close the door and wouldn't stop talking until she was done. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Only happened the once, but once was enough.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
la vie en rouge: And chat. Don't forget the chatting (which I suppose might be another reason why women want separate facilities ).
In fact, this would be a good reason why I would favour them too. I like some room for quiet contemplation when I'm alone with my, erm, willy.
Generally people don't try to talk to you when you are in a cubicle. (I think the most conversation I have had in a public toilet has been, 'there's no loo roll in that one' or 'excuse me' on the way to the hand drier.)
I'd agree that you don't expect conversation from strangers but in my experience if you go into a loo with a friend it's quite usual to carry on the conversation you're having while you're both in the cubicles as well as while washing your hands and standing at the mirror reapplying your lipstick.
I guess we're all talking about the kind of shared loos which are reasonably nice, not the sort that you only visit if you're desperate and get out of as soon as possible. Some restaurant and hotel toilets are positively delightful... individual rolled up hand towels, flowers, soap, hand cream, mirrors, armchairs... The sort you visit even if you don't need to, just for the experience.
Nen - Nice Toilets I Have Known.
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They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Backward colonial living on the Canadian prairies here, beware of avatar twins.
In small towns and rural, when the women's can is in use, women commonly use the men's. And why not. Men efficiently pee, and the toilet is vacant. The stall is lockable.
It is also common that there is only one potty, and all use it in turn. Also, sometimes the men's room doesn't have a toilet at all, just a trough for pee, all lined up, trying to aim away from those on the left and right (this is the small town legion or church hall experience). Men have to use the women's for the other job.
Finally, it is rather clear that the person who is to use the facilities makes the decision which one to use. I've never seen anyone bat an eye about anyone using whatever one they want to. Here I'm referring to gas stations, public buildings, sports arenas.
Now, if you're actually bathing, there might be a difference in conduct, i.e., a shower, locker or change room. Though we commonly have 3 change rooms: men, women and family. When crowded anyone will use the family one.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
How do you know you aren't going to get jumped by the guy in the bus shelter, or the sole male attendant in the garage, or the male standing behind the cashpoint etc. What is it that makes you uniquely vulnerable washing your hands ? (Or males in a shared toilet facility likely to be much more dangerous than those in other kind of shared facility.)
Because in the sort of loos I'm talking about, nobody would hear you scream - you are in rarely used facilities, not in a well-populated place. It's probably rather different in busy cities, although there are documented cases of young girls being attacked in supermarket loos so not impossible. A man lurking in a place normally reserved for women would alert you to danger, a man in a unisex area probably wouldn't, even if he actually is a danger. It would be harder to read the signs.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I think you are right to be suspicious of somebody of the opposite gender in a segregated area - because then you are talking about breaking boundaries etc. But that is different from planning unisex facilities in the first place.
Isolation is easier to solve, you put a jackpot alarm in the facility itself and cctv on the outer door.
But I suppose my point is, that there are many places where you may end up alone with men. Driving lessons for example. Usually we don't read that as a threat, you are - of course - far more likely to be attacked at home by someone you know.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
I'm just dandy with the idea of a unisex toilet- most of the month. But the sound of a maxi pad or tampon wrapper opening up is pretty hard to disguise, and I don't ant to explain that one to any of the guys I work with. And they really don't want to know!
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The bathrooms at Lewis-Clark College in Portland OR are gender neutral. It is not unusual to see male and female dorm mates sharing the same bathroom. One shaving while the other is putting on makeup.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by AmyBo:
I'm just dandy with the idea of a unisex toilet- most of the month. But the sound of a maxi pad or tampon wrapper opening up is pretty hard to disguise, and I don't ant to explain that one to any of the guys I work with. And they really don't want to know!
(wonders idly what a man would make of the suctiony sound of mooncup removal / replacement)
lightbulb moment!
Having puzzled for several days over loggats remark:
quote:
I mean, we all know what goes on in a loo but it does sort of kill the glamour of a woman.
starts to think loggats may have a point.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I'd think after you'd heard the sounds of several of your co-workers of both genders after a staff meeting that involved a huge Chipotle order, the sound of a thin strip of paper separating from adhesive would no longer hold the horror it once did.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I take Doublethink's point about how, if starting from scratch, it wouldn't be seen as such a problem. But the current situation has certain activities seen as more personal than others (ones involving bodily functions and nudity or part nudity). So mixed changing areas in shops, sports halls and swimming pools would be similar to mixed loo areas. Somehow, mixed sex individual cubicles, with a door leading straight out into a well-populated area, seem more safe than communal areas behind a general entrance for all of these activities.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
One shaving while the other is putting on makeup.
I wonder which does what? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[Miss Amanda will get her wrap.]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
There's something unusually prudish about this thread, that perhaps needs a little Canadian informality, I suspect a large number of my American friends might have me broaden this to those who live in the great open spaces in the western part of the continent.
A couple of things to keep us grounded (I didn't realize what a Big Deal this is for some of you). First, 58% of people in India just try to find a patch of ground somewhere, and I suppose try to avoid eye contact.
Second, I wondered how many of you have ever used a two-holer? or gone in the woods? (the first thing to consider is location BTW)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I trekked the wilderness with nary a loo in sight. It is different within civilisation. In an urban environment, I do not care to share with anyone, though do as a necessity.
Every culture has those things in plain view which they do not see, necessity often rules this.
Yes, the west can be a bit precious because it can be. Pointing this out is of interest, but will change behaviour and discomfort not a whit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I don't see the need for sex segregated restrooms at all. Especially in small places that have single user bathrooms... why not just have two for either sex instead of one for each alone?
I can see it might be more problimatical with larger rooms with more accomidations, but as doubtingthomas said, if everything is inside a stall there shouldn't be any problem.
Nor me. I have worked in two schools in which the staff loos have been unisex. So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I'm not sure whether this is a tangent or not.
I can see that being a transgender person, is a tragic situation for a person to find themselves in. Which door you go into when you need to go is only one, and not the most difficult, of the problems you have to face.
However, I am in my sixties and as far as I know, I've only met one transgender person and two transvestites - who I know aren't transgender anyway. If it hasn't been pertinent to you, it doesn't rattle your cage. There are other social issues that you will regard as higher priority.
That though isn't my question.
I've picked up elsewhere, and it's clear from some comments on this thread, that there are people who think that as an issue of principle, of social dogma, we ought all, whether male or female, be required to use the same loos, washing and changing facilities. We all do in our own homes, but the general practice in the public sphere has, all my life, been to have separate ones.
I can see that people building hotels, pubs, public buildings etc might want to argue this so as to save money. I can also see that they might be grateful to be able to dredge up arguements that sound high minded to conceal their grubby motive.
However, I haven't really encountered this debate. So I can't actually see what the high minded, issues of principle, social dogma etc reasons are. It clearly isn't just the possible needs of the very small number of transgender people. Can somebody tell me please?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
First, 58% of people in India just try to find a patch of ground somewhere, and I suppose try to avoid eye contact.
I couldn't access your link (slow internet connection today) but my understanding (from charities who supply toilets!) is that for people without toilets in India, the experience is very different for men compared to women.
I have heard that it is far more common to see a man squatting in public than a woman -women are expected (as far as possible) to only come out after dark to meet their needs.
One charity magazine printed a story of a teenage girl's delight in the new enclosed toilet in her area, as she was fed up with risking harrassment by men every time she needed to answer a call of nature.
Another charity (run entirely by well-off locals) went to women in a slum, and asked them specifically what would improve their quality of life. A toilet block was high on the list. It turned out to be very easy to fund, as the government had already allocated money for it, but the money had been "misplaced" by disinterested officials. The charity's tactic was to point out to the officials how much respect and gratitude they would receive for doing their public duty, and to ensure that once the amenities were built, the beneficent officials involved got to cut the ribbon and be photographed for the local papers on opening day!
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
Once the amenities were built, the beneficent officials involved got to cut the ribbon and be photographed for the local papers on opening day!
Doing what?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
I don't see the need for sex segregated restrooms at all. Especially in small places that have single user bathrooms... why not just have two for either sex instead of one for each alone?
I can see it might be more problimatical with larger rooms with more accomidations, but as doubtingthomas said, if everything is inside a stall there shouldn't be any problem.
Nor me. I have worked in two schools in which the staff loos have been unisex. So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
Male teachers in some schools hardly have time to sit down - indeed to go to the loo in the first place.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
At my last place of work, the unisex loo was more popular simply because it was on the ground floor, therefore took much less effort to get there.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Various:
--I wouldn't feel safe in a multi-stall unisex bathroom. People do get assaulted in restrooms--and they're already half-dressed, anyway, at least the women.
--I worked at a small company that had one unisex one-stall bathroom. There were maybe 10-12 men and 2 women. Besides the aiming problem mentioned upthread, how shall I put this...different hormones have different smells. And one kind can have a very bad scent to people who have another kind--especially if one group is in the majority.
--There should be a way to provide facilities for transgendered folks, but I don't think group toilets for all is the answer. Americans, at least, tend to like privacy in the "throne room". If that's taken away to accommodate trans folks, non-trans will feel resentful--and that won't help acceptance of trans people.
They could use the unisex one-stallers for disabled folks--but that would implicitly label them as disabled. Maybe just some extra one-stallers, with both male and female symbols on the door to show unisex status??
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
What bothers me a bit about this discussion is that there's not (to my knowledge) anyone trans involved. Now that may be an inevitable consquence of the overwhelming majority of shipmates being cis, but I'm generally a bit unhappy whenever this kind of conversation becomes "what do we do with THEM?" where the group discussed isn't even in the discussion. This happens with all minority and marginalised groups to some extent, but it seems clear to me that the first priority is finding out from transpeople what they themselves think the solution should be, and working from there. Because the fact is that as a ciswoman, I might have an opinion on this (I don't particularly feel strongly either way) but as it doesn't have the same impact on my life as it would on a transperson's life, my opinion shouldn't be given the same weight.
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
What bothers me a bit about this discussion is that there's not (to my knowledge) anyone trans involved. Now that may be an inevitable consquence of the overwhelming majority of shipmates being cis, but I'm generally a bit unhappy whenever this kind of conversation becomes "what do we do with THEM?" where the group discussed isn't even in the discussion. This happens with all minority and marginalised groups to some extent, but it seems clear to me that the first priority is finding out from transpeople what they themselves think the solution should be, and working from there. Because the fact is that as a ciswoman, I might have an opinion on this (I don't particularly feel strongly either way) but as it doesn't have the same impact on my life as it would on a transperson's life, my opinion shouldn't be given the same weight.
True. But it's good that the discussion is being had by people who presumably have no real interest in it. Many of us are informed by what our trans friends have to say, and by paying attention to their experiences. Not the same as being trans yourself, but it's the best we can do.
Actually, I came here today to post this link:
Gender-neutral bathrooms become law in Philly
[ 10. May 2013, 20:10: Message edited by: churchgeek ]
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
For people who may feel uneasy about using a urinal for whatever reason, they can use one of the cubicles.
This applies to me every now and then, because of the awkwardness of dealing with cycling shorts.
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Eyes front, no talking! And hence no tension or discomfort.
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
A related topic would be the question of a parent taking his/or her child into a restroom that matches the gender of the parent but not of the child.
I often use the urinal with a toddler of either sex on my hip. Sure - if there's a family facility I'll probably use that, but there often isn't. IMO, the same rule applies to toilet facilities as to changing rooms. Once a child gets to be about 6 or 7, he or she should use the facilities appropriate to his or her sex. Younger than that, and they go in with whichever parent or other carer happens to be there.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Take the quiz to see if you're an, erm, whiz on this topic.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
--This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
Some of them
don't.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've read the comments and followed the links, but none of them have shed any real light on the question I asked two days ago. I accept that it's a bit of a tangent, but can any of you out there help?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
This may not be the place to discuss this (if there is one!, but how do guys cope with the usual "everyone front and center" design of men's restrooms? Seems like an opportunity for all sorts of tension and discomfort.
As long as I can recall, I've had what my doctor calls "bashful bladder" - I can't urinate at normal urinals if someone else is in the room, or provide a specimen on demand. So I use a stall when necessary. Strange, because I went to a boys school and had no problems showering after a game of rugby, changing after swimming and so forth.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
WTF?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
So long as the men are reminded to sit down I'm fine with it!
WTF?
Have you cleaned round a loo (and the surrounding floor) after it's been used by men standing up?
Here is a good explanation as to why the pee doesn't always end up where it should.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
At work I have to do it standing due to lack of proper facilities. Seem to have learnt to switch between the two without developing a split personality or such like.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Since being with my partner of 12 years I've come around to peeing sitting down . Don't give it a second thought now . You could say it helps keep the peace where toilet-seat 'up/down' war is concerned .
Traitor!
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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