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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The head, the heart and the gut
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Hi Folks
I was having a conversation with someone about 'the sinner's prayer' recently, and started to think afresh about "welcoming Jesus into my heart" (TM).
I REALLY HOPE TO AVOID A THREAD ABOUT THE THEOLOGY OF THIS PRAYER! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Instead, could we talk about the last word in the phrase, what it means to us now, and what it might have implied in colloquial speech to folks in early NT times? And while we're at it, perhaps we could talk about the 'head' and the 'gut' (or, as I think it says somewhere in a passage in the bible I read not so long ago, 'bowels' as in 'moved in my'. Can you suggest the verse?).
As a first guess, perhaps we're talking about colloquial shorthand for emotion, motivation and intention, love, courage, analytical thought, something raw and unprocessed...I don't know. What do you think? What did they think? Where does 'spirit' (mine, and The Holy) fit into this? Where is my spiritual battle with fear and despair (see Christian Aid thread) taking place, speaking colloquially rather than anatomically...
MiM
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Instead, could we talk about the last word in the phrase [into my heart], what it means to us now, and what it might have implied in colloquial speech to folks in early NT times?
Well for us now, I guess it's being used roughly interchangeably with life, spirit, soul etc. as you suggest in your post. Unpacking the phrase a bit, I'd say it means (or should mean...) putting God first; which in turn means always doing what I think he would have me do, always trying to live within his will. It's a very odd phrase though, isn't it: 'welcoming Jesus into my heart'? Not a phrase used in many other contexts (the 'into my heart' bit).
As for its use in NT times, I don't think it was used in anything much like the 'sinner's prayer' way, was it? The equivalent for Jesus himself was simply 'Follow me', right? And for the NT writers, they often wrote about 'living according to the Spirit', 'putting to death the sinful nature' and similar.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Thanks Kevin
I'm partly interested in this because I've come to sense (you'll see why I use that word in a mo) that before I "know" something, I "feel" it; even in my (scientific) work, I "feel" something (good, iffy, a bit smelly, very smelly) about what I'm doing / thinking, and it's this sense that drives me to move confidently forward with rational analysis / hesitate / re-try / give up. In a way it preceeds and directs thought - it's not consciously rational. And I'm thinking about connections to ideas like 'spirit', because I can't use charismatic language in a way that feels truthful to myself - I want to understand it in what feel like real, truthful terms, to me.
I'm asking myself whether I can make the vaguest category-level connection between 'God speaking in my *heart*' and the odd feeling I get before I've even had time to ferret out a missing factor of pi, or to find the precise root of obfuscation in a memo - because at that moment those functions are not yet happening in my *head*.
(ETA: and since I'm trying the very unfamiliar and unscientific stunt of talking about emotions, I need some reassurance about the use of allegorical body parts to describe experiences to other people using language which will not be fatally compromised by a lack of shared meaning.)
[ 13. May 2013, 10:56: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
I've heard that a couple of millennia ago, the heart was regarded as the seat of the intellect, not of the emotions, but I can't quote you a text on that.
These days, I think "heart" is too much associated with drippy romanticism to be of any use in Christian discourse. Jesus is not my boyfriend.
[Cross-posted with everybody except South Coast Kevin.]
[ 13. May 2013, 10:56: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
These days, I think "heart" is too much associated with drippy romanticism to be of any use in Christian discourse. Jesus is not my boyfriend.
Agreed that the heart is too often associated with drippy romanticism.
But the Church will be the Bride of Christ, so some degree of such is appropriate.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
I wonder if "heart" could be something more akin to what we refer nowadays as "subconscious"? Has anyone here ever read "The inner game of tennis"? In it the "mind", self 1, is the controlling part, the part that likes to rationalise and judge things. "Heart", self 2, is the instinctive part, the part that already knows what to do.
As with all such things, balance is the key.
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Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
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Posted
Posted by Adeodatus
quote:
Jesus is not my boyfriend
Good because he told me he's mine and I don't think the's the unfaithful sort.
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"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My instinct led me to think that in this context "heart" meant "core", the centre of being - and a quick search of the etymology of "core" confirmed that that was of the same root as many words meaning "heart". Which would suggest that the idea of a centre like the core of the Earth, or of an apple, without which the whole could not exist, could be contained within the word heart as well.
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Thanks Penny, that's helpful.
So in these early stages of my nascent journey out of my head (so to speak)...I might think of 'heart' as 'core' (or couer ![[Smile]](smile.gif) ) - that from which much else grows, thereby being identifiable as core and not something out-on-a-limb.
Perhaps that means my remedial noodling with emotion (I'm in the makrame basketwork class as far as understanding emotion goes) and for that matter 'spirit' had better be located in the 'gut' - along with gut-level knowledge / instinct / the subconscious (thanks AdOrientem) ?
Are emotions identified with the subconscious in therapeutic thought - I guess they might be visible indicators of whatever the subconscious is doing?
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've heard that a couple of millennia ago, the heart was regarded as the seat of the intellect,
One hears this, but simple observation should be sufficient to prevent such stupidity.
"Fascinating, every major blow to the head seems to damage the heart as well."
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Hallellou, hallellou
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
In much Eastern thought heart and mind are absolutely interchangeable (e.g. in Pali/Sanskrit same word "citta" means both heart and mind).
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I've just been reading John Keats on the 'Vale of Soul-making', and trying to get my head around it.
He distinguishes between the intelligence of the human heart, which he calls the 'seat of the human passions', and the mind. The world is suited, he says, for the 'proper action of Mind and Heart on each other for the purpose of forming the Soul or Intelligence destined to possess the sense of Identity.'
The heart according to Keats is 'the mind's bible, the mind's experience, the teat from which the mind sucks its identity'.
Circumstances of the world are touchstones and provings of the heart, fortifiers of the nature, which when altered becomes the Soul, which was previously an intelligence without identity.
I'm not sure whether this is helpful, but thought I'd throw it in.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've heard that a couple of millennia ago, the heart was regarded as the seat of the intellect, not of the emotions, but I can't quote you a text on that.
These days, I think "heart" is too much associated with drippy romanticism to be of any use in Christian discourse. Jesus is not my boyfriend.
You don't have to go much farther than a Bible dictionary such as IVP New Bible Dictionary to confirm what you heard. Guts were considered the 'seat of the emotion' in those days.
Think of heart wood- the core at the centre of a tree.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I wonder if "heart" could be something more akin to what we refer nowadays as "subconscious"?
If you want to gain some understanding of the experimental evidence relating to the relationship between the conscious and the unconscious I suggest you read the easily digested Incognito by David Eagleman – he’s a “neuroscientist at Baylor College of Medicine” etc.
ISBN 978 1 84767 940 6
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Guts were considered the 'seat of the emotion' in those days.
That explains Cromwell's choice of words when he said quote:
I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
Guts were considered the 'seat of the emotion' in those days.
That explains Cromwell's choice of words when he said quote:
I beseech you in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken.
Moo
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I suppose the old interpretations were based on where we physically feel things. So some feelings seem to be definitely located in the chest, and others lower down in the stomach and intestinal area.
I'm not sure what I feel in the head - amusement?
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
In terms of the sinners prayer, I suspect heart is used to say belief in Christ is not enough. It the yes to the offer of relationship that is important.
For me, my entire theology is based around love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. And your neighbour as yourself. It is a beautifully holistic command recognising the elements of physical, emotional and spiritual self and giving it your all. It reassures me that you can be rational and intelligent and Christian, or emotional or physical or any combination... And the only strength I need is what I have at any given time. And at times when I am somewhat disconnected in many areas, that feels me with hope.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm not sure what I feel in the head - amusement?
orgasm? elation? euphoria? excitement? maybe
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Yangtze
Shipmate
# 4965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I was having a conversation with someone about 'the sinner's prayer' recently <snip>
Could you help those of us who have no idea what 'the sinner's prayer' is by posting it?
(Yes I know google is my friend but on a thread about it having it posted would probably be a good idea, no.)
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Sorry, Yangtze
I'm thinking of an old shibboleth which people used to hit me with as a young person...'yes, but have you asked Jesus into your heart'?
aka 'Are you saved?'
As to the prayer istelf, in whatever form it normally involves some confession of one's fallen state (see current Fallen Human thread - I really like Spufford's HPtFTU) followed by an invitation to Jesus to Live In One's Heart.
I've found it fruitful to throw some mental resource at well-worn phrases which never had much 'punch' with me, and to see what might fall out. I'm also interested in language to describe the non-rational, since I have a current need to share information about emotional realities, and sod-all experience of doing so.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I'm thinking of an old shibboleth which people used to hit me with as a young person...'yes, but have you asked Jesus into your heart'?
To which, the correct response is always 'Not only my heart but my head also!' and see what they make of that.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm not sure what I feel in the head - amusement?
orgasm? elation? euphoria? excitement? maybe
Ah, seriously iffy stuff, all.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've heard that a couple of millennia ago, the heart was regarded as the seat of the intellect, not of the emotions, but I can't quote you a text on that.
These days, I think "heart" is too much associated with drippy romanticism to be of any use in Christian discourse. Jesus is not my boyfriend.
You don't have to go much farther than a Bible dictionary such as IVP New Bible Dictionary to confirm what you heard. Guts were considered the 'seat of the emotion' in those days.
Think of heart wood- the core at the centre of a tree.
Well yes, but what evidence would, say, the IVP dictionary cite? What non-Biblical texts? Or is this just something that's been 'widely accepted' for such a long time that nobody has bothered to check whether it's true or not?
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've heard that a couple of millennia ago, the heart was regarded as the seat of the intellect, not of the emotions, but I can't quote you a text on that.
These days, I think "heart" is too much associated with drippy romanticism to be of any use in Christian discourse. Jesus is not my boyfriend.
You don't have to go much farther than a Bible dictionary such as IVP New Bible Dictionary to confirm what you heard. Guts were considered the 'seat of the emotion' in those days.
Think of heart wood- the core at the centre of a tree.
Well yes, but what evidence would, say, the IVP dictionary cite? What non-Biblical texts? Or is this just something that's been 'widely accepted' for such a long time that nobody has bothered to check whether it's true or not?
I dunno. I'm not a scholar in ancient languages. There comes a point when doubting sources comes a bit unprofitable for a lay person. They usualy have further reading references in the articles. I CBA to looke them all up.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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