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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I'm a bit confused.....
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, I get that, really I do. And I one hundred percent agree! What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly. In his post I think he shouldn't have indulged himself with his final paragraph. The rest was fine with me, as is everything else people have added on this thread. FWIW.
Comes down to Hot Buttons ... Your hot button is the Admins telling people to leave. One of the Admin's hot buttons is people telling us that they'll leave if the Ship doesn't do x or y ...
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I can see that. Yep.
Thanks for the space to say my thing. Pax.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But suppose that you're one of the Shipmates that doesn't want his/her sex life being discussed on the Ship, but someone starts a thread in Hell that does so anyway. Ignoring the thread doesn't make the problem go away: your sex life is still being discussed.
Been there, have enough t-shirts to clothe leviathan. People will discuss what they want to discuss. Discussing it with them doesn't exactly reduce the effect, in my experience. And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.
What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.
The message is: if you don't want to be spoken about you in this way, then stay out. And I guess there are a number of Shipmates who avoid Hell because of this.
What if I would start a thread in Hell out of the blue about one of those Shipmates, titled "FluffyBunnyShipmate X is playing with herself too much?" Yes, the other Hellions would probably shread me to pieces, but for FluffyBunnyShipmate X the damage would already be done: her sex life has been put out into the open on the internet, even if she stayed out of Hell.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
LeRoc - the clear and official answer appears to be precisely nothing will be done officially about it. In Hell, providing you steer clear of legal issues, suicide, and reasoned discussion you can post whatever you want, and the hosts probably won't do anything about it officially.
That's what shipmates are for.
So if you wandered down to Hell and posted a thread about Motherboard's sex life (I say Motherboard cos I haven't seen her in Hell recently ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ), then the hosts would do nothing official about it. I imagine there would be a queue of denizens ready to:- Riff about your sex life instead
- Tell you to take your medication or ask where you left your brain cos Motherboard has done nothing to deserve this
- Simply rip you to shreds creatively discussing your (lack of) intellect, sex life, ability to eat and breathe at the same time, etc.
Some people posting as denizens may even be hosts or admins. They are shipmates too.
Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.
This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.
[ETA I doubt anyone would (unless playing games) start such a thread about someone who doesn't venture into Hell. Sine took a comment in Hell, made by a shipmate who posts a lot in Hell, and gave it its own Hell thread.]
[ 02. July 2013, 15:43: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly.
But is probably pretty much what Erin would have said, too - even though, yes, she was passionate about open communication. I don't think anybody likes established shipmates leaving, but H&As have generally had a pretty low tolerance of threats to leave. Those two things aren't incompatible, you know.
I'm guessing that the best protection against having speculation on your sex life posted in Hell is to use your real name - because then any speculation would probably be libellous.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Thank you Sarkycow for your answer.
quote:
Sarkycow: This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.
I agree with you that the Ship is very good in self-correcting, and it is one of the reasons I like to come here.
The way I see it, the self-correction works in this way: if I would start a thread about FluffyBunnyShipmate X's sex life in Hell, plenty of people would fall all over me, and I would very probably (and deservedly) loose the argument in a big way.
That's great, but that's not the point. The point isn't about winning or losing an argument. It's about things being posted about your sex life, real or imagined, without your consent, and these things will be preserved for all eternity in the Ship's archives, and in plenty of search engines on teh Internetz.
I guess what it seems to come down to is this: By signing on to the Ship, we accept that discussions may be started about any aspect of our private lives, even without our consent, and these discussions will be on the internet for everyone to see, and will be preserved for the future.
Is it like this? Do all people who sign up to the Ship know this? At least it gives a very strong reason to use a nick on the Ship, and not your real name.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
For the record, LeRoc, something very, very close to the scenario you are describing happened to me. I'll spare you. Believe me, I know how tough it can be to suck shit like that up.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all). So anything anybody posted here would just be slagging, and no more likely to be accurate than placing insults on a cork board and throwing a Montblanc at them. So even if everybody in the world can see them, what of it? Only a mouth-breathing horsewanker would take it seriously, and why would I want to work for somebody like that anyway?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mousethief: The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all).
But of course it would be quite possible to just invent things about your sex life. And you never know, we might hit bullseye and what we say might be true. Things can even happen by accident (which happened a bit in Orfeo's case).
Just an example. What if there was a Shipmate who didn't want anything being discussed about the relationship with his/her father on the Ship, for various reasons. Suppose this person got in a heated general discussion about the Ten Commandments (the Bible ones, not the Ship ones) in Purgatory, and someone would call him/her to Hell, taking the Sixth Commandment as an example and making some juicy remarks about it. I personally feel that if that person would say "I don't want to my relationship with my parents to be discussed", at the very least we should cut it out and switch to another example right there.
I also have some aspects of my personal life (not necessarily my sex life) that I don't want to be discussed on the Ship. What could I do if this would happen, even by accident?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)
(Sorry, guys, but y'all must know by now.)
In AS , in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.
I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.
It cuts both ways-- I have to be careful about what I post, and I have learned to be a big girl and suck it if I get weird responses based on something personal I have posted, therefore if I do, I do it boldly. (As Mousethief says,there are only about a half dozen people on the Ship who have gotten to know me enough for me to take their judgement under serious consideration)
But people delivering "gotchas" based on very personal info risk losing the respect of other Shipmates, or whatever rapport they may have built up with the person in question.
In both cases, you have to count the cost.
[ 02. July 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.
Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Organ Builder: In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.
To make the analogy more fitting, the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.
Which as far as I'm aware is pretty much never if you're using a screen name and not revealing your true identity.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.
We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.
Is there any further clarification that you might like?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.
I am SO remembering this option.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In AS, in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.
I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.
I rather think we have had at least one case where something that someone said in All Saints was flung in their face in Hell soon afterwards, and I rather think the offender was first roasted by all and sundry and then suspended. Do I misremember? if anyone cares to PM me, I could name the victim but not the perp.
Difficult boundary to police, because plenty of people post prolifically and share personal things on a variety of boards, so as time passes people might forget what was said where, but IMHO it's out of order to fling stuff fresh from All Saints at people in Hell. Unless someone's being a total and utter pain in the ass in AS, of course.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.
One problem with this is that someone can be a total asshole on main boards but refuse to 'do hell'. Instead, they just continue to be assholes on every other damn board. I can't think of a recent example, and they'd usually ended up being banned in the end, but in the meantime, when any confrontation is met with a "I can't hear you lalalalala", it can be quite frustrating, and any resulting hell thread has the potential of getting quite fiery, understandlbly IMO.
I don't think it's easy to come up with any rules (other than the already exisitng "don't be an asshole") to combat the problem you've highlighted, so it does seem that the best option is for the community to be self-correcting.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.
Is there any further clarification that you might like?
For the moment no. But I'd just like to register here that I'm not entirely comfortable with this.
Like I said before on this thread, there is an aspect of my private life that I don't want to be discussed here. Not on purpose and not by accident. Not even if ten of the most experienced Hellhounds on the Ship come to my defence. It's an aspect of my private life that I want to keep separate from the Ship (and I doubt very much that I'm the only one). To the question "Am I allowed to do that?" you just answered "No."
I also want to make clear that "If you don't want this aspect of your private life to be discussed on the Ship, then don't start talking about it" isn't a solution here. What happened with the thread about Orfeo is a clear example of this: he didn't start to talk about his sex life, but people discussed it anyway.
I already expect you to give me the "If you don't like it here, you can always leave" answer, but I just want to spell out what that means.
It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."
Is this what we want?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."
Is this what we want?
Yes. Because it's the least-bad alternative. I see what you're uncomfortable with as a fundamental aspect of online existence. And to struggle against the essential structure of the internet I think would mean choking the life out of the ship, and burning out its volunteer Crew.
Freedom has an ugly side, but not as ugly as losing that freedom.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: Yes.
Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?
I think Ruth answers this quite well. Think twice before you post anything personal, and then think a third time, take a day to consider the wisdom of saying it if need be.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RuthW: People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Tell that to Orfeo: he didn't post about his sex life (at least not in this occasion), yet people started discussing about it.
And made-up shit can hurt too. To give an example, supposed that someone suffered from abuse from his/her father in the past. I can imagine that (s)he wouldn't be too happy about a random thread in Hell saying "Person X is a dickhead who treats his/her parents badly", which could arise from something as simple as a discussion about Commandment Five from the Bible. If I were in this position, I'd just want it to stop, no matter how many people defended me.
If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(The last paragraph should start with "If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even want to say...")
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.
How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
But would not the requested Hostly intervention then effectively be the disclosure you're trying to avoid?
(X-post with Marvin)
[ 03. July 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?
I realize and accept that there isn't an easy solution to this. My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)
Of course, this doesn't completely take away the problem. As soon as a thread is closed there will be someone jammering in the Styx "Where did it go?" And it doesn't take away the problem of internet archives either.
I guess any solution would be a bit 'dirty' and incomplete. But at least it would be some kind of recognition by the Ship that some things can go too far.
When I signed up to the Ship, I accepted that my opinions will be challenged here, sometimes in a rough way. I accepted the possibility that I might be called to Hell (they haven't so far) and that people will call me nasty names there and say all kinds of stuff about me.
That's ok, but there are some limits somewhere. And I suspect that most people around here have some limit or another.
I accept that there isn't a 100% perfect solution to this, but I'm not sure if "You should just have to live with it" is a satisfactory solution either.
What I would propose is: if there is a thread (especially in Hell) that inadvertently hits too close to home, a Shipmate should have the possibility to PM a Host or Admin, and discuss what would be the best solution in this case.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)
I can only remember one thread that was shifted to the Secret Archive for this sort of thing, and that was for a REALLY nasty set of comments about a poster that also got the commenter banned.
And yes, I mean CONSIDERABLY nastier than merely speculating on how many times they might have got laid in the last week or so. Stuff that not a single person on the boards would just laugh off if it was said about them. We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.
And if I recall correctly, even in that case there was a Styx thread to explain why the thread wasn't there any more. Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lamb Chopped, I hope you don't leave. I've especially valued your posts in Kerygmania and look forward to more.
Just have to say that this goes for me too, LC. Multiplied by a factor of twelve.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: I can only remember one thread that was shifted to the Secret Archive for this sort of thing, and that was for a REALLY nasty set of comments about a poster that also got the commenter banned.
Alright, and thank you for admitting that there are limits somewhere.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.
Ok, I agree that any such solutions or interventions should be limited to extreme cases. But I'm glad to know that the possibility does exist.
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.
Amateurs.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What I would propose is: if there is a thread (especially in Hell) that inadvertently hits too close to home, a Shipmate should have the possibility to PM a Host or Admin, and discuss what would be the best solution in this case.
A Shipmate already has this possibility. It sounds like what you want is something more: that the overwhelming likelihood not be that the Host or Admin says "best solution is that thread stays."
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Autenrieth Road: It sounds like what you want is something more: that the overwhelming likelihood not be that the Host or Admin says "best solution is that thread stays."
No, that's not what I'm asking for.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
You're asking for the impossible, Le Roc. As soon as you publicly tell people not to talk about stuff, they will talk about it, and there is no mechanism here for the equivalent of a super-injunction (you're not allowed to say you're not allowed to talk about this).
There are laws of human behaviour in operation here. Let me give you an example. I used to work at a special school. One term, as boy X was due to satrt, the head called us all together and said:I want to make one thing clear. X's father is his father, and there is no argument about that.
So, of course, it was immediately obvious that there was an argument about it. And, almost inevitably, it later emerged that X's father wasn't his father.
Secondly, if a mechnaism for effectively silencing speculation existed, it would be ridiculously unfair. Shipmate Y emails a host and says: "I don't want anyone talking about my grandparents, because my grandfather abused me." How does the host know this is true? Maybe Y is just making shit up to be tiresome. In real life, adults don't get to go to someone else to help people stay off topics that press their buttons.
For all the talk about schoolyard bullies here, you're not in a school yard. If you just walk away, feigning disinterest, when a hot button topic springs up out of nowhere, no one is going to trip you up, or push you around, or knock you down and steal your lunch money.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.
Ok, I agree that any such solutions or interventions should be limited to extreme cases. But I'm glad to know that the possibility does exist.
It's one of the reasons Commandment 1 was written. But the flipside of the possibility existing is that, for obvious reasons, what constitutes an extreme case is the Admins' call, not the offended Shipmate's. And where there's any doubt we're almost certainly going to err on the side of not deleting posts/threads.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Autenrieth Road: What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.
Yes, but the tone on the first page of this thread was very much "We don't want to censure anyone in Hell, people should just defend themselves or suck it up etc. etc." which seemed to exclude any possibility of a solution in the form of a thread closing or something similar.
What I'm asking for is the possibility to PM a Host and discuss a solution, and that closing/deleting the thread might be a solution under consideration in extreme cases. The first page of this thread didn't make clear that this solution existed.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Marvin the Martian: Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.
Amateurs.
To quote one of my favourite webcomics: "What kind of evil overlord are you going to be, anyway?" "Apparently a better one than I'd thought..."
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: It's one of the reasons Commandment 1 was written. But the flipside of the possibility existing is that, for obvious reasons, what constitutes an extreme case is the Admins' call, not the offended Shipmate's. And where there's any doubt we're almost certainly going to err on the side of not deleting posts/threads.
I haven't been in the situation yet (and I hope I never will), but I guess that for the moment I can live with that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Autenrieth Road: What are you asking for then? Because a Shipmate can already PM a Host or Admin to ask about a thread.
Yes, but the tone on the first page of this thread was very much "We don't want to censure anyone in Hell, people should just defend themselves or suck it up etc. etc." which seemed to exclude any possibility of a solution in the form of a thread closing or something similar.
What I'm asking for is the possibility to PM a Host and discuss a solution, and that closing/deleting the thread might be a solution under consideration in extreme cases. The first page of this thread didn't make clear that this solution existed.
Which is what I said, although in fewer words: you want the result of the PM and the attitude of the Host/Admin to be something other than a repetition of the usual result that the thread stays open and the usual expression that this is the way it's going to be, at least almost always.
[ETA: cross-posted.... rereading the intervening posts, I see that the nuance is getting the acknowledgement that extreme cases might exist where the results might be different. Fair enough.]
[ 03. July 2013, 17:08: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Autenrieth Road: [ETA: cross-posted.... rereading the intervening posts, I see that the nuance is getting the acknowledgement that extreme cases might exist where the results might be different. Fair enough.]
Ok, it isn't always easies to get the nuances through (TBH I think this is what fuels a lot of discussions on the Ship).
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
QLib: Shipmate Y emails a host and says: "I don't want anyone talking about my grandparents, because my grandfather abused me." How does the host know this is true?
Another example. Suppose a Shipmate has under-age children. (S)he gets involved in a discussion in Purg about child-rearing that gets a bit heated. The opponent calls him/her to Hell, and composes an opening post saying a lot of nasty things not only about the callee (which is allowed in Hell) but also about his/her children.
This counts as off-limits to me. I imagine that Commandment I would cover this, but could it lead to closing/deleting of the thread?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
We don't have a Big Book of Rules that covers every eventuality. Hosts and Admins will judge according to the particular specifics of a thread. The H&As may, or may not, consider that a line has been crossed. Actions, in the event of a line being crossed, range from a acerbic, barbed witty "knock it off" semi-official nudge back to the right side of the line to someone being banned and the thread whipped off to the Secret Archive.
I, and no one else, can predict in advance what that judgement will be. Because, until those posts are out there with all the circumstantial background the judgement can't be made.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Ok, I can live with that.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
RuthW: People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Tell that to Orfeo: he didn't post about his sex life (at least not in this occasion), yet people started discussing about it.
Orfeo did not post about his sex life on this occasion, but he had on other occasions. Once you mention some aspect of your life, it's out there.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I can't recall specifically when I disabused people of the notion I was a eunuch...
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
What I mean is that the thread called "orfeo's Sad Little Sex Life" was a joke thread that didn't actually discuss orfeo's sex life until orfeo took it seriously and gave out information about his sex life.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
In real life, adults don't get to go to someone else to help people stay off topics that press their buttons.
Well, that depends, doesn't it. In real life, adults do require their employers to ensure that other employees don't go in particular directions (sexual harassment etc.).
Also in real life, if a guest in my house is upsetting another guest, I can and will tell him to knock it off or leave.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Online communities go through phases. Sometimes, it's helpful to keep that in mind.
A couple of resources:
--Natural Life Cycle of Mailing Lists, by Kat Nagel. This is posted as part of a larger work on cyber-psychology. Also check out the link at the bottom of the page to related light bulb jokes!
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-- Community Life Cycle, rooted in the experience of the Usenet community.
Some communities find it helpful to periodically dredge up reminders like these. FWIW. YMMV.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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