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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: I'm a bit confused.....
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I was just wondering, apart from this specific thread about Orfeo: what if someone starts an unsollicited thread in Hell about someone's sex life, and the person in question doesn't want that?
People usually don't want the threads started about them in Hell. I've never had anyone start a thread about my sex life, probably because such a subject would be a huge creative stretch for even the ship's best writers, but I did have someone start a thread about my sphincter one time and it went as you've guessed, at first others were happy to join in and then a few came to my defense -- or "had my back," as they say, (sorry, I just can't stop myself.)
My point being, where have you and Lamb Chopped been? To me it seems like Hell has softened somewhat in recent years. Mrs Bennet? Really? Literary characters are hardly the severe beat downs I've seen Evensong and others get on a weekly basis -- and I say this after having someone compare me to that awful, shallow girl from, "The Poisonwood Bible."
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
Here is the thing. Everybody is vulnerable in some way. And the more one invests themselves the worse they can be hurt. I think Orfeo not posting on that thread is probably the smart thing.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
So, is the conclusion: anyone can start a thread in Hell on the sex life of any Shipmate (s)he wants, and the only thing this Shipmate can hope for is that enough other Shipmates will come to his/her defence? Or is there more to it?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{{{{{{{Orfeo}}}}}}}
I understand your wanting time off, especially in combination with your travels. But please don't leave permanently.
{{{{{{{Lamb Chopped}}}}}}}
Please neither vacate nor leave permanently.
Same to anyone else who's thinking of leaving.
As bad as it can be, Hell has been much, much worse in the past. This is a *relatively* mellow version of it.
I'm not defending the excesses of Hell. I've spoken up, a good many times, about them.
But Hell isn't the sum total of the Ship.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Got to chime in here to add my voice to those who are asking Lamb Chopped not to leave. Don't go, please!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Earnestness is a flammable substance in Hell. If you carry it in with you, expect to abandon it quickly or be burned.
I am very sorry that orfeo and Lamb Chopped have been hurt. I do not wish to see either of you depart, temporarily or permanently. I enjoy your postings. And I am very sorry that you have had this painful experience with Hell. I do not know what to say beyond that; my bag of salve is limited. I hope you stay.
If necessary, practice this liturgical response for Hell: "Ah, fuck you too."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
From my brief time here, I have understood that the line was at the level of legal liability. But then apparently suicide and related references to self are also off, and then there's some reference to priestess and bishopess being off limits. Would overt racism, sexism, homophobia or attacks on some groups be okay and not on others in hell? Hard to really know. Sometimes it doesn't really seem there are any lines, and at other times there are sort of some. The only one that seems clear is obedience etc to hosts/admin.
Certainly, some people are much, much nastier than they would be in person or electronically to others who could identify them. I stopped doing anything here last week until I saw this tonight due to observations that predated the sexual life thread about a member, and will be interested to see if in fact, the ship is really self correcting and worth staying with.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So, is the conclusion: anyone can start a thread in Hell on the sex life of any Shipmate (s)he wants, and the only thing this Shipmate can hope for is that enough other Shipmates will come to his/her defence? Or is there more to it?
There is more to it. It is also allowable to ignore stupid Hell threads, even ones pointed at you specifically.
To those who want to leave: just go. See if it suits you better.
If it doesn't, just come back. No harm, no foul.
But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Sometimes it doesn't really seem there are any lines, and at other times there are sort of some.
There are lines, but they're deliberately fuzzy and loosely defined to stop assholes playing the "how close can i get to breaking the rules without actually breaking them" game.
The problem here is not the rules. The problem is that pretty much everyone has hot buttons that when pressed will send them into fits of apoplexy, be it discussion of their sex life, comparison to a fictional character, or whatever. And we can't legislate for that.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
So the universal rule of internet forums also applies to Hell:
Behind every pitchfork there is a real, feeling human being.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.
Are you referring specifically to the behaviour of orfeo and Lamb Chopped? If so, I think you need The Nurse to go through her Understanding Human Behaviour, The Basics for you one more time.
The fact that you're so dismissive of people's investment here says something about you, and that's a problem when your being so and being an Admin says something about the Ship.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
But to dangle your participation in some histrionic game? It's the fucking internet, and you're all nominally adults.
Are you referring specifically to the behaviour of orfeo and Lamb Chopped? If so, I think you need The Nurse to go through her Understanding Human Behaviour, The Basics for you one more time.
The fact that you're so dismissive of people's investment here says something about you, and that's a problem when your being so and being an Admin says something about the Ship.
Problem is, Yorick, this shows a hot button of your own. On personal levels we can all be as sensitive as we want to be, but once we try to incorporate that into the guidelines here, the place is doomed.
The ethos is unrest. There aren't too many of us who have hung around for a while who haven't been discomforted or had our buttons pressed by someone or something. Sure, sometimes it comes across as cruel and unusual. I'm not all that thick-skinned either. After some bruising encounters here I've sometimes thought "why do I bother?". But that's the thing about hot buttons. We cool off and re-evaluate.
For good or ill, Shipmate, the balance of the loose guidelines and H&A monitoring (rather than a complex cookbook) has probably done more for the survival of this forum than anything else. Sarky's post is spot on re Hell policy and Marvin's pragmatism gets pretty close to the heart of application across the piece.
Best we can do, I think. And we do try to do our best in the wider interests of the place.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I wholeheartedly agree with all of that, B62, and think Sarky's post should be stapled to the mast on Hell for perpetuity. And you're right about my own hot button- I do get upset when I feel people are put off contributing here, especially by the PtB. The ethos here is democratically free and open communication- something Erin was absolutely passionate about- and whenever people find they have to leave, that's a minus. When it's because they feel the Ship is being navigated through seas they cannot endure, that's a bad thing. And when it's LC and orfeo, that's a very bad thing.
I just want as many people as possible to feel welcome to contribute here. Soppy idealism maybe, but there it is.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I do get upset when I feel people are put off contributing here, especially by the PtB. The ethos here is democratically free and open communication- something Erin was absolutely passionate about- and whenever people find they have to leave, that's a minus. When it's because they feel the Ship is being navigated through seas they cannot endure, that's a bad thing.
Ay, there's the rub! Because ISTM that closing down discussions such as the one that inspired this thread would be antithetical to the principle of democratically free and open communication. And if we were to do so in order to stop some people from leaving, would we just end up causing a different set of people to leave? And if people are going to leave whatever we do is it better to chart the course of openness or censure? Such are the questions that keep the cocktail bar in the H&A Lounge busy ![[Frown]](frown.gif) ...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Maybe I'm not being clear. My particular gripe is with Admins who say that valued Shipmates who admit considering leaving are just dangling their participation in a histrionic game, when this might encourage them to jump ship. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Maybe I'm not being clear. My particular gripe is with Admins who say that valued Shipmates who admit considering leaving are just dangling their participation in a histrionic game, when this might encourage them to jump ship. It's unnecessary and counterproductive.
If someone says that they disagree with something and feel strongly enough to leave, then there are two possible responses:
A Where The Wild Things style, “Oh please don’t go, we’ll eat you up, we love you so”, coupled with frantic attempts to fix whatever it is.
Or to call their bluff, “To those who want to leave: just go. See if it suits you better. If it doesn't, just come back. No harm, no foul”. No one called a bluff quite like Erin. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
The Ship has changed a lot over the years. But all of that change has come through thoughtful, reasoned argument rather than threats to leave. All Of It.
Tubbs
[ 02. July 2013, 11:16: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Yes, I get that, really I do. And I one hundred percent agree! What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly. In his post I think he shouldn't have indulged himself with his final paragraph. The rest was fine with me, as is everything else people have added on this thread. FWIW.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: There is more to it. It is also allowable to ignore stupid Hell threads, even ones pointed at you specifically.
Thank you for your answer.
But suppose that you're one of the Shipmates that doesn't want his/her sex life being discussed on the Ship, but someone starts a thread in Hell that does so anyway. Ignoring the thread doesn't make the problem go away: your sex life is still being discussed.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Yes, I get that, really I do. And I one hundred percent agree! What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly. In his post I think he shouldn't have indulged himself with his final paragraph. The rest was fine with me, as is everything else people have added on this thread. FWIW.
Comes down to Hot Buttons ... Your hot button is the Admins telling people to leave. One of the Admin's hot buttons is people telling us that they'll leave if the Ship doesn't do x or y ...
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I can see that. Yep.
Thanks for the space to say my thing. Pax.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But suppose that you're one of the Shipmates that doesn't want his/her sex life being discussed on the Ship, but someone starts a thread in Hell that does so anyway. Ignoring the thread doesn't make the problem go away: your sex life is still being discussed.
Been there, have enough t-shirts to clothe leviathan. People will discuss what they want to discuss. Discussing it with them doesn't exactly reduce the effect, in my experience. And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: And we're not going to censor people in Hell, as long as they keep out of legal issues and it isn't part of a larger systemic Commandment-1 issue.
What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.
The message is: if you don't want to be spoken about you in this way, then stay out. And I guess there are a number of Shipmates who avoid Hell because of this.
What if I would start a thread in Hell out of the blue about one of those Shipmates, titled "FluffyBunnyShipmate X is playing with herself too much?" Yes, the other Hellions would probably shread me to pieces, but for FluffyBunnyShipmate X the damage would already be done: her sex life has been put out into the open on the internet, even if she stayed out of Hell.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
LeRoc - the clear and official answer appears to be precisely nothing will be done officially about it. In Hell, providing you steer clear of legal issues, suicide, and reasoned discussion you can post whatever you want, and the hosts probably won't do anything about it officially.
That's what shipmates are for.
So if you wandered down to Hell and posted a thread about Motherboard's sex life (I say Motherboard cos I haven't seen her in Hell recently ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ), then the hosts would do nothing official about it. I imagine there would be a queue of denizens ready to:- Riff about your sex life instead
- Tell you to take your medication or ask where you left your brain cos Motherboard has done nothing to deserve this
- Simply rip you to shreds creatively discussing your (lack of) intellect, sex life, ability to eat and breathe at the same time, etc.
Some people posting as denizens may even be hosts or admins. They are shipmates too.
Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.
This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.
[ETA I doubt anyone would (unless playing games) start such a thread about someone who doesn't venture into Hell. Sine took a comment in Hell, made by a shipmate who posts a lot in Hell, and gave it its own Hell thread.]
[ 02. July 2013, 15:43: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
What I find leaves an unpleasant taste in my mouth is when RooK doesn't leave it there, but suffixes his contempt for those who admit their flouncy inclination and dismisses it as histrionic gamesmanship. Maybe he's right, and maybe not, but given his position as Admin and therefore a figurehead of the place, it's easy to imagine it having an undesirable effect on those who feel wobbly.
But is probably pretty much what Erin would have said, too - even though, yes, she was passionate about open communication. I don't think anybody likes established shipmates leaving, but H&As have generally had a pretty low tolerance of threats to leave. Those two things aren't incompatible, you know.
I'm guessing that the best protection against having speculation on your sex life posted in Hell is to use your real name - because then any speculation would probably be libellous.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Thank you Sarkycow for your answer.
quote:
Sarkycow: This is what's known as the Ship being self correcting.
I agree with you that the Ship is very good in self-correcting, and it is one of the reasons I like to come here.
The way I see it, the self-correction works in this way: if I would start a thread about FluffyBunnyShipmate X's sex life in Hell, plenty of people would fall all over me, and I would very probably (and deservedly) loose the argument in a big way.
That's great, but that's not the point. The point isn't about winning or losing an argument. It's about things being posted about your sex life, real or imagined, without your consent, and these things will be preserved for all eternity in the Ship's archives, and in plenty of search engines on teh Internetz.
I guess what it seems to come down to is this: By signing on to the Ship, we accept that discussions may be started about any aspect of our private lives, even without our consent, and these discussions will be on the internet for everyone to see, and will be preserved for the future.
Is it like this? Do all people who sign up to the Ship know this? At least it gives a very strong reason to use a nick on the Ship, and not your real name.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
For the record, LeRoc, something very, very close to the scenario you are describing happened to me. I'll spare you. Believe me, I know how tough it can be to suck shit like that up.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all). So anything anybody posted here would just be slagging, and no more likely to be accurate than placing insults on a cork board and throwing a Montblanc at them. So even if everybody in the world can see them, what of it? Only a mouth-breathing horsewanker would take it seriously, and why would I want to work for somebody like that anyway?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mousethief: The thing is, nobody knows anything about my sex life other than the fact that I'm married (which carries some implications about one's sex life, but that's all).
But of course it would be quite possible to just invent things about your sex life. And you never know, we might hit bullseye and what we say might be true. Things can even happen by accident (which happened a bit in Orfeo's case).
Just an example. What if there was a Shipmate who didn't want anything being discussed about the relationship with his/her father on the Ship, for various reasons. Suppose this person got in a heated general discussion about the Ten Commandments (the Bible ones, not the Ship ones) in Purgatory, and someone would call him/her to Hell, taking the Sixth Commandment as an example and making some juicy remarks about it. I personally feel that if that person would say "I don't want to my relationship with my parents to be discussed", at the very least we should cut it out and switch to another example right there.
I also have some aspects of my personal life (not necessarily my sex life) that I don't want to be discussed on the Ship. What could I do if this would happen, even by accident?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(I'm sorry, 'Honour thy father and thy mother' is the Fourth or Fifth Commandment, depending on your tradition. I lost count there somewhere.)
(Sorry, guys, but y'all must know by now.)
In AS , in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.
I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.
It cuts both ways-- I have to be careful about what I post, and I have learned to be a big girl and suck it if I get weird responses based on something personal I have posted, therefore if I do, I do it boldly. (As Mousethief says,there are only about a half dozen people on the Ship who have gotten to know me enough for me to take their judgement under serious consideration)
But people delivering "gotchas" based on very personal info risk losing the respect of other Shipmates, or whatever rapport they may have built up with the person in question.
In both cases, you have to count the cost.
[ 02. July 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.
Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Organ Builder: In this respect, LeRoc, it seems to me the Ship is very much like a real neighborhood. If the neighbors want to gossip about some aspect of your personal life, there is not much you can do about it except hope your friends will defend you.
To make the analogy more fitting, the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Just as in real life, that changes only if something crosses over into slander or libel.
Which as far as I'm aware is pretty much never if you're using a screen name and not revealing your true identity.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
the Ship would be like a neighbourhood where the neighbours will gossip about you and publish all those gossips in a newspaper for anyone to read. My questions are about the last bit.
We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.
Is there any further clarification that you might like?
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Some passing person with the power may even change your thread title if they found a sufficiently amusing alternative.
I am SO remembering this option.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In AS, in a weak moment, I discussed some bombastic behavior on the part of my mother, who has always has a sharp tongue it is becoming master-class in her old age. Later I was arguing in Hell, and apropos to nothing on the thread, the stuff I brought up in AS was entered into discussion on the thread.
I didn't bother to protest, but I think one other Shipmate did, and pretty much got the answer you are getting.
I rather think we have had at least one case where something that someone said in All Saints was flung in their face in Hell soon afterwards, and I rather think the offender was first roasted by all and sundry and then suspended. Do I misremember? if anyone cares to PM me, I could name the victim but not the perp.
Difficult boundary to police, because plenty of people post prolifically and share personal things on a variety of boards, so as time passes people might forget what was said where, but IMHO it's out of order to fling stuff fresh from All Saints at people in Hell. Unless someone's being a total and utter pain in the ass in AS, of course.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
What about people who don't want to venture in Hell much? The guidelines of Hell are clear: if you post here you put on a bull's eye on yourself, if you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen etc. etc.
One problem with this is that someone can be a total asshole on main boards but refuse to 'do hell'. Instead, they just continue to be assholes on every other damn board. I can't think of a recent example, and they'd usually ended up being banned in the end, but in the meantime, when any confrontation is met with a "I can't hear you lalalalala", it can be quite frustrating, and any resulting hell thread has the potential of getting quite fiery, understandlbly IMO.
I don't think it's easy to come up with any rules (other than the already exisitng "don't be an asshole") to combat the problem you've highlighted, so it does seem that the best option is for the community to be self-correcting.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: We get that; we really do. And our answer still stands.
Is there any further clarification that you might like?
For the moment no. But I'd just like to register here that I'm not entirely comfortable with this.
Like I said before on this thread, there is an aspect of my private life that I don't want to be discussed here. Not on purpose and not by accident. Not even if ten of the most experienced Hellhounds on the Ship come to my defence. It's an aspect of my private life that I want to keep separate from the Ship (and I doubt very much that I'm the only one). To the question "Am I allowed to do that?" you just answered "No."
I also want to make clear that "If you don't want this aspect of your private life to be discussed on the Ship, then don't start talking about it" isn't a solution here. What happened with the thread about Orfeo is a clear example of this: he didn't start to talk about his sex life, but people discussed it anyway.
I already expect you to give me the "If you don't like it here, you can always leave" answer, but I just want to spell out what that means.
It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."
Is this what we want?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
It comes down to: "If you're not prepared for the possibility of all aspects of your private life to be discussed openly on the Ship, even against your wishes, then you can always leave."
Is this what we want?
Yes. Because it's the least-bad alternative. I see what you're uncomfortable with as a fundamental aspect of online existence. And to struggle against the essential structure of the internet I think would mean choking the life out of the ship, and burning out its volunteer Crew.
Freedom has an ugly side, but not as ugly as losing that freedom.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RooK: Yes.
Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Just out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what (non-Admin) Shipmates think about this too. Are all Shipmates prepared for the possibility of all aspects of their private lives being discussed openly on the Ship, even against their wishes?
I think Ruth answers this quite well. Think twice before you post anything personal, and then think a third time, take a day to consider the wisdom of saying it if need be.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
RuthW: People can't discuss things they don't know about. They can make shit up, sure, but that's fiction. If you don't want people discussing a particular aspect of your life, don't post about it on the boards.
Tell that to Orfeo: he didn't post about his sex life (at least not in this occasion), yet people started discussing about it.
And made-up shit can hurt too. To give an example, supposed that someone suffered from abuse from his/her father in the past. I can imagine that (s)he wouldn't be too happy about a random thread in Hell saying "Person X is a dickhead who treats his/her parents badly", which could arise from something as simple as a discussion about Commandment Five from the Bible. If I were in this position, I'd just want it to stop, no matter how many people defended me.
If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(The last paragraph should start with "If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even want to say...")
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
If I were in this position, maybe I wouldn't even have to say "I don't want to discuss my relationship with my parents because I've been abused in the past" on the thread. What I would like, is the possibility to write a PM to a Host or Admin, saying that I don't want this discussion to happen, for personal reasons.
How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
But would not the requested Hostly intervention then effectively be the disclosure you're trying to avoid?
(X-post with Marvin)
[ 03. July 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Marvin the Martian: How exactly are the H&A to put a stop to such discussion without making it obvious to everybody on the Ship that you have parent issues? Just move the thread to the Secret Archive without telling anybody else why?
I realize and accept that there isn't an easy solution to this. My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)
Of course, this doesn't completely take away the problem. As soon as a thread is closed there will be someone jammering in the Styx "Where did it go?" And it doesn't take away the problem of internet archives either.
I guess any solution would be a bit 'dirty' and incomplete. But at least it would be some kind of recognition by the Ship that some things can go too far.
When I signed up to the Ship, I accepted that my opinions will be challenged here, sometimes in a rough way. I accepted the possibility that I might be called to Hell (they haven't so far) and that people will call me nasty names there and say all kinds of stuff about me.
That's ok, but there are some limits somewhere. And I suspect that most people around here have some limit or another.
I accept that there isn't a 100% perfect solution to this, but I'm not sure if "You should just have to live with it" is a satisfactory solution either.
What I would propose is: if there is a thread (especially in Hell) that inadvertently hits too close to home, a Shipmate should have the possibility to PM a Host or Admin, and discuss what would be the best solution in this case.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
My memory may be faulty, but in my 11 years on the Ship I think I have seen occasions where a Hell thread inadvertently hit too close to home, and was closed by a Host on request of a participant. Maybe it was even deleted (this was in the days before Oblivion.)
I can only remember one thread that was shifted to the Secret Archive for this sort of thing, and that was for a REALLY nasty set of comments about a poster that also got the commenter banned.
And yes, I mean CONSIDERABLY nastier than merely speculating on how many times they might have got laid in the last week or so. Stuff that not a single person on the boards would just laugh off if it was said about them. We're talking a really extreme case, here - and as the saying goes, extreme cases make bad law.
And if I recall correctly, even in that case there was a Styx thread to explain why the thread wasn't there any more. Soviet-style "disappearings" don't happen easily round here.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Lamb Chopped, I hope you don't leave. I've especially valued your posts in Kerygmania and look forward to more.
Just have to say that this goes for me too, LC. Multiplied by a factor of twelve.
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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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