Ship of Fools: Reading Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy

Thread: Reading Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

I'm not sure if this is in line with commandments 8 and 9, or otherwise within the remits of this chatroom, but here goes.

Does anyone know good Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy to read that is original in its worldbuilding, e.g. isn't merely a Tolkein clone?

I have read and very much enjoyed enjoyed the first two books of the Earthsea quartet and am in the process of (slooowly) reading LoTR.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

Patrick Rothfuss - Kingkiller Chronicles
Michelle Sagara - Chronicles of Elantra
Stephen Deas - Memory of Flames

That's a start.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

Popular even before it became a TV series full of sex and gore (but the books are full of sex and gore too): George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, starting with "A Game of Thrones." Frustrating though in that the series isn't finished yet.

I highly recommend anything by Robin Hobb and anything by Guy Gavriel Kay. Hobb's books come mostly in trilogies and with the exception of the Soldier Son series, they're all set in the same world with characters and concerns that loosely connect, but each trilogy can be read independently. My husband and I started with the Mad Ships trilogy but the Assassin trilogy technically comes first if you want to read through the whole "series."

Guy Gavriel Kay's first trilogy, The Fionavar Tapsetry, is pretty typical high fantasy and heavily Tolkein-inspired (though also very original, and inspired by other things such as the Arthurian legends). His later books, of which "Tigana" and "The Lions of Al-Rassan" are my favourites, are each set in a culture that is modelled fairly closely on a real time and place -- say, Renaissance Italy or Moorish Spain or eighth-century China -- but with magical/fantasy elements introduced and with the freedom to create fictional characters and events that didn't actually happen in history. GGK is my favourite fantasy writer of all time.

Unlike most people, I hate Stephen Donaldson's Thomas Covenant books and love his lesser-known, less-appreciated pair of books "The Mirror of Her Dreams" and "A Man Rides Through" -- I think they tell a wonderful story with engaging characters in a very interesting world.

Posted by Arch Anglo Catholic (# 15181) on :

Now I love Stephen Donaldson but can also heartily recommend an odd cross over series between sci fi and fantasy, the saga of the exiles by Julian May. Quite excellent and a delightfully different 'take' on the outsider in the land of another.

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :

I am not a big reader of fantasy but the Fionavar Tapestry which Trudy mentions is 1(3) of my favourite books of any kind. I have not read any fantasy that I enjoyed half as much. I had not even realised that it was influenced by Tolkien.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

It's hardly worth it for the mockery and derision you get from readers of "proper" literature.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Another vote for George R R Martin. A complex saga with a whole army of fascinating characters.

Posted by Organ Builder (# 12478) on :

It's not S&S, but having recently re-read them I would recommend Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Sometimes they are called "Gothic Fantasy", sometimes they are called "Fantasy of Manners"... His world is completely original, but the characters draw you in.

It's not really a "trilogy" in the conventional sense, and I find the first two books to be superior. They will stand on their own. The third book is fascinating, but it has always felt to me as though it is an outline that his failing health prevented him from finishing. I enjoy it most if I think of it as a very well-formed sketch.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arch Anglo Catholic:
Now I love Stephen Donaldson...

You really need to read about Clench Racing [Razz]

quote:

... but can also heartily recommend an odd cross over series between sci fi and fantasy, the saga of the exiles by Julian May.

Not great books, but fun in a sort of way. Unlike Donaldson I have read them more than once and will likely read them again one day. Gets more and more transparently Catholic as the series goes on. Extremely so by the end.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Does anyone know good Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy to read that is original in its worldbuilding, e.g. isn't merely a Tolkien clone?

If you haven't read any of Mark Chadbourn's amazing post-apocalyptic novels, I'd recommend you do so. They're dark, but they'll keep you gripped. Try The Age of Misrule, and see what you think.

Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on :

quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I am not a big reader of fantasy but the Fionavar Tapestry which Trudy mentions is 1(3) of my favourite books of any kind. I have not read any fantasy that I enjoyed half as much. I had not even realised that it was influenced by Tolkien.

Guy Gavriel Kay worked with Christopher Tolkien on The Silmarillion, back in the 1970s. [Cool]

Hence the (very) subtle tributes. But the Fionavar Trilogy is also much more Celtic/Arthurian in its tone than Tolkien ever is.

I enjoyed it too. [Smile]

It's very over the top. [Big Grin]

But a cracking read!

I've read very little official 'High Fantasy'. Onew of the reasons why I love Tolkien is that his world is deliberately styled to feel more like imaginary history, rather than fantasy.

I'd be very willing to give George RR Martin a go, but the books look interminable [Help]

and the misogyny in his world is hard to stomach. Also, GRRM's famed propensity for killing off characters ...

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

I don't know if it counts as it starts in a very tolkein-esque fashion (though it expands outwards from there and becomes very different) but the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan (and Brandon Sanderson finishing) is one of the best world builds I've read. Rich and detailed, it keeps you interested for 14 very large volumes.

And Stephen Eriksson's Malazan Book of the Fallen has been highly recommended to me. I haven't managed to get through the first book which starts right in the middle of a very complicated world, and needs a bit of effort to get one's head round. But I'm assured by my friend that once you're in, you're addicted. In terms of world-building, it's one of the most detailed, and original.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
It's not S&S, but having recently re-read them I would recommend Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast books. Sometimes they are called "Gothic Fantasy", sometimes they are called "Fantasy of Manners"... His world is completely original, but the characters draw you in.

It's not really a "trilogy" in the conventional sense, and I find the first two books to be superior. They will stand on their own. The third book is fascinating, but it has always felt to me as though it is an outline that his failing health prevented him from finishing. I enjoy it most if I think of it as a very well-formed sketch.

There are few books that have made more of an impression on me than the Gormenghast books. I agree about the third in the series - it doesn't have the rich, sticky, grotesque quality of the first two, and I think the characters are more sketchy. Apparently there's a fourth - Titus Wakes or something like that - but I haven't seen it.

What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :

quote:

Originally posted by Hawk:
the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan ... is one of the best world builds I've read ... it keeps you interested for 14 very large volumes.

Well, there's no accounting for taste [Smile]

I really enjoyed the first few, when it was billed as a trilogy, then a quintet. Then all of a sudden in about book 4 the characters all seemed to have a drastic reversion from developed, maturing folk to idiotic cardboard teens. I stuck with it until book 7, and Mrs Snags until book 9, but eventually the feeling that it was being cynically spun out to keep on raking in the cash overcame any joy in the story(stories).

Mind you, I found Gormenghast, Covenant and the Julian May stuff extremely turgid too, so maybe it's just me.

I'd second the Robin Hobb and non-Covenant Donaldson recommendations. Slightly at a tangent to the original request there are things like Moorcock's Eternal Champion series (not so much world-building as myth-building), Zelazny's Amber sequence, and Richard Morgan's hopefully soon to be completed trilogy that starts with The Steel Remains is a refreshing reboot of familiar themes.

As a teenager I devoured the David Eddings series (Belgariad, Mallorean) but having revisited them as an adult, they're still fun, but not as clever as they thought they were [Smile]

Posted by Kyzyl (# 374) on :

I read the Belgariad books as a teenager. Haven't re-read them but I remember them as fun. I wonder where Pratchett fits into this. Not S&S really; fantasy in a broad sense. You can find all of those elements somewhere in the Discworld.

ETA: do books need to be "serious" in order to fit into the S&S/fantasy category?

[ 22. March 2013, 15:26: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hawk:

And Stephen Eriksson's Malazan Book of the Fallen has been highly recommended to me. I haven't managed to get through the first book which starts right in the middle of a very complicated world, and needs a bit of effort to get one's head round. But I'm assured by my friend that once you're in, you're addicted. In terms of world-building, it's one of the most detailed, and original.

Second this. Erikson's not without his problems, but the Malazan series is great fun.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

I love BotNS, which is really SF that starts out making you think it's fantasy. Until you realize that you're actually reading about a far-future Earth, and that the narrator is extremely unreliable--forcing you to re-read, of course, to see what you missed!

The related Book of the Long Sun and Book of the Short Sun are not quite as good, partly because Wolfe overdoes the tricksiness.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Snags:

As a teenager I devoured the David Eddings series (Belgariad, Mallorean) but having revisited them as an adult, they're still fun, but not as clever as they thought they were

David Eddings had one story, and managed to get paid for writing it 4 times in 4 different series. The writing is better in his second pair of series ("The Diamond Throne" et. seq.), but it's not great.

I'll add another vote of support for Robin Hobb as being worth reading, and add a couple of other possibilities.

Katherine Kerr's Deverry series (beginning with "Daggerspell") is worth a read, although it's a 15 book series, and the last few seem a little contrived.

I'll also offer Janny Wurts's "Wars of Light and Shadow" series. This is epic high fantasy, original and well-written. The series isn't complete, though. She's been going for the last 20 years, and there are now 9 published books in the series, and she thinks she'll be finished in 12.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I enjoyed Diane Duane's Tale of the Five trilogy: The Door Into Fire, The Door Into Shadow, and The Door Into Sunset. Her world of the Middle Kingdoms is rich and spiritual, and her characters balance their own inner turmoils and personal destinies with love and loyalty to their friends. And for me at least, I get a real sense of a whole other world in their travels.

She inserts the Triple Goddess into the stories, the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone. One thing of note that in this religion it is quite likely for anybody to meet the Goddess at least once in their lifetimes and, in fact, sleep with her (!).

There are rumors that Ms. Duane will eventually also publish a fourth book called The Door Into Starlight. When...?

[ 22. March 2013, 15:59: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There are few books that have made more of an impression on me than the Gormenghast books.

They are brilliant.

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
What do we think about Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun? I enjoyed the first volume, but never got any further with it.

We think its.... Very Odd. Good but odd. Also very, very, Catholic, thoush in a much more hidden way than the Julian May books. I read them all and enjoyed them. Might well be works of genius.

Something no-one both sane and literate could say about Stephen Donaldson's stuff. I mean a read the things, I even sort of enjoyed them, but they are such crap. I'm sure he had a novel in him somewhere - about leprosy and rape and sustainable development and misogyny and contrition and lonliness and some other strong things that surely can be ingredients of powerful fiction - but its as if someone told thim that all fiction has to be in the form of third-rate pastiche of second-rate imitators of Tolkien. [Projectile]

And as for his command of the language... well maybe it was mutinying the day he got his commission.

Continuing the Catholic theme, as well as Tolkien and May and Wolfe, RA Lafferty is/was also a serious Catholic, and shows it in his books. Which are always interesting and sometimes wonderful. And like Julian May and Gene Wolfe are not so much epic fantasy as SF in a fantasy overcoat. As in fact I suspect A Song of Ice and Fire is, though I woudln't be surprised if the SF bones never show through the fantasy and/or alternate-world flesh, even if GRRM has thought them out in detail, which he possibly hasn't. A Song of Ice and Fire is also in a sense pastiche, but in this case its well-done and intentional and occasionally very funny. He knows his sources and they are many and some of them quite obscure I think.

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Snags:
I really enjoyed the first few, when it was billed as a trilogy, then a quintet. Then all of a sudden in about book 4 the characters all seemed to have a drastic reversion from developed, maturing folk to idiotic cardboard teens. I stuck with it until book 7, and Mrs Snags until book 9, but eventually the feeling that it was being cynically spun out to keep on raking in the cash overcame any joy in the story(stories).

I got stuck on this when the action slowed almost to a late-model Donaldson coma at book 7, but after a long pause I picked it up again and it recovers. Particularly when Brandon Sanderson took up the reins.

Speaking of Sanderson, anybody mentioned the Mistborn books yet?

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I recommend Patricia McKillip.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:

Speaking of Sanderson, anybody mentioned the Mistborn books yet?

I was really excited by the first book, but the excitement diminished markedly through the second and third. Still fun, and I'm glad I read them, but they're not what they could have been.

I second also the recommendation for Richard Morgan's brutal fantasies. Just the thing for those who are put off by George R.R. Martin's sunny optimism.

And in the same vein, R. Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing and Aspect Emperor trilogies are fine gritty fantasies set in a crapsack world, with a Nietzschean twist.

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Something no-one both sane and literate could say about Stephen Donaldson's stuff.

The thing that puts me off the Covenant series these days isn't so much any of the things you mention although I agree with them. It's not even his apparent intent to see if he can break the world record for number of pages in which nothing actually happens.

No, it's that what I enjoy about fantasy books most are those moments of redemptive victory. It doesn't matter how dire things get, eventually the good guys will turn out to have won in some way (even if they all end up dead). In Covenant every time somebody wins, it turns out they've actually ripped a hole in the fabric of reality and made things a million times worse than if they hadn't bothered. It's about as uplifting as throwing yourself off a cliff.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

OK actual answer to the question, part one: Sword and Sorcery.

No-one has actually dealt with this yet (though some of the Michael Moorcock Eternal Champion books are S&S, ore nearly so, though most aren't. The Elric ones probably nearest, and the Corum ones have something of the feel of it theuogh they also get more into the Celtic-twilight-wishty-wishty sort of fantasy)

You really, really want to read Fritz Leiber's books about the city of Lankhmar and the anti-heroes Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Start anywhere, read all of them. They are the pinnacle of Sword and Sorcery. Or the swordpoint of it I suppose, if you want a more genre-related sharp thing. They are also (is this somethng of a theme as well) to some extent pastiche or knowing parody of what had gone before. And they are bloody good. Most of the books are collections of short stories, or paste-up novels made of previous short stories, though The Swords of Lankhmar is written as a novel, and its a good one. The best-known story is Ill Met in Lankhmar which is brilliant, one of the earliest in internal chronology, but one of the last written.

And the best of what had gone before is Ronbert E Howard. Especially Conan. Read it. Turn off your critical facilities a bit, remember he doesn't intend it all completely seriously (or if he did he was a loony. Come to think of it, he was a loony), forget the films, lket your imagination roam, and read some Conan stories. Most of them are fun, some of them are surprisingly good. Personally I think The Tower of the Elephant counts as literature. Read it. OK, it does help to be fifteen, male, and bored when you read them. But even if you aren't, give them a try. Its worth it. And you can't say you really know about Sword and Sorcety until you have!

Leiber's Lankhmar is an affectionate parody of Howard's Shadizar. And Ankh-Morpork is an affectionate parody of Shadizar. The first few books of Terry Pratchett's Discworld are sword-and-sorcery, of a very knowing and self-referential kind, and Pratchett is a far, far better writer than Howard (and probably a better one than Leiber). And he's really really funny. As the series goes on it starts to play with other genres as well as or instead of S&S (and a tinge of SF) and Ankh-Morpork morps away from Shadizar-cum-Lankhmar to something a lot more like early modern London with a slight overlay of Venice. (But then Shadizar is the child of Samarkand and Baghdad of the Arabian Nights, and that was begotten by Babylon)

Not really in print now, but some of the stories of CL Moore and Leigh Bracket are sword-and-sorcery. The earlier ones of Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series are close to S&S, though in fact they are also SF dressed up as fantasy. As the series goes on the books get longer and more serious and more obviously SF, as well as feminist (with a bit of a Catholic tinge) One of my favourite writers - I think I might have all her books - but in this case I'm very willing to put that down as a matter of taste. (Some writers really are good. Some really are bad. Some really are down to taste)

Poul Anderson wrote some good fantasy stuff as well. And John Brunner's "Traveller in Black" stories are worth a read.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.

Mind you, Terisa, the main character in the other Donaldson series that I did recommend, also wallows in self-pity, but in her case it's part of an overall arc of character growth (also, she's under an enchantment and doesn't know it) and she GETS OVER IT. I don't think Thomas Covenant ever does.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I second Zelazny's Amber - it's a time since I read them. I remember hearing someone in the little bookshop I picked such things up in telling another browser how one felt he liked his characters, and people in general.

I never finished Julian May, despite wanting to know how it worked out. In fact, I felt moved to put the copies I had in the bin bag. (Yes, I am a prissy little person with a sense of her own rightness, yada yada.) The reason was that the characters who had good relations with partners they valued as people always ended up dead, while some who used others and used again (sexually, after all, I am a prude) did very well. Or that was the impression I was getting at that point. I didn't want to have to wade through any more squelchy bits. (Why I'm not reading about Westeros, or watching it. There are two sorts of squelch, and it seems to have both - see above.)

Have you tried Katherine Kurtz' Deryni books? (You might want to argue with a medieval world with post-Tridentine church organisation.)

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie

In which category I'd make a special plea for T.H.White's beautiful The Once and Future King. I love the way it starts as a whimsical children's comedy but builds up to a dark, complex retelling of "the Matter of England". Profoundly humane. And the last scene always makes me cry.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Actual answer to the question, part one: High Fantasy.

That's a harder one because its a slipperier concept. I mean its pretty easy to say what "Sword and Sorcery" is but "High Fantasy" move about a bit. So I cheat and use John Clute's defintion: "Fantasies set in Otherworlds, specifically Secondary Worlds, and which deal with matters affecting the destiny of those worlds." (Which is a pity because it means I can't recommend Little Big by John Crowley as it is ostensibly set in this world. even though its very, very good and everyone ought to read it [Biased]

Or Alan Garner's books, especially The Weirdstone of Brisingamen and The Moon of Gomrath)

And going by that definition, the one you need to read is The Silmarillion. As well as LOTR of course.

The King of Elfland's Daughter by Lord Dunsany (and lots of his lovely short stories)

China Mieville's New Crobuzon books, Perdido Street Station, and The Scar, and Iron Council. You won't find any elves and magic wands in them (though there are telephones and trade unions), and they are very dark (though there is a sort of happy ending). but they certainly fit the definition and they are very good.

Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books. As I said before some of the earlier ones are Sword-and-Sorecery (On the surface at least) but the later ones are High Fantasy, or SF in the clothes of High Fantasy. Almost anything by Mary Gentle. (Though Grunts is very atypical of her and a bit gory. Well, most of her books are a bit gory, but not in the same way. Also SF dressed up as fantasy, and some of the more recent ones go on to dress up as historical fiction, but they are all deeply SF at the core. The best one might be Ash. CJ Cherryh's fantasies (most of her books are hard SF or space opera and I like them very much) and some of Liz Williams's books fit here too.

MIchael Moorcock. Again.

Roger Zelazny's Amber series. Maybe a bit too street-level to be "High", but. Also his Lord of Light which is very clearly SF but feels like fantasy. And is probably his best book.

The Grandmother of them all: Morte D'Arthur and all the other Arthurian romances. As others have said.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I never finished Julian May [...] The reason was that the characters who had good relations with partners they valued as people always ended up dead, while some who used others and used again (sexually, after all, I am a prude) did very well. Or that was the impression I was getting at that point.

Actually it all comes right at the end. Or rather the begining. Its sort of circular. With a huge dose of Deus ex machina But you have to read all eight books. And it gets quite obvious why the last one is called Magnificat. I would hesitate to say that its worth it...

Posted by basso (# 4228) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, starting with "A Game of Thrones." Frustrating though in that the series isn't finished yet.

I greatly enjoyed the first couple of books in the series. I was starting to find it hard to keep track of all the characters when I picked the latest one up in the library, and muttered about halfway through, "What about <character>?" I glanced ahead at the back of the book, where I discovered that G. Railroad had only managed to squeeze half of his story into 700 or so pages, said, "He's turned into Robert Jordan!", set the book aside unfinished, and haven't been back. I doubt I'll return.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.

Yes - I just skip those passages on re-reading and focus on the interesting bits. Probably the best way of handling it: the Covenant stories are good but can leave you feeling a bit queasy, and they're never a cheerful, light read.

Btw I could never get on with Robin Hobb's books. One was fine, but after that they seemed much of a muchness. I couldn't take anyone called Kettricken seriously as a princess, either.

I really enjoyed the Darkover novels by Marion Zimmer Bradley. They're fantasy, but not really sword-and-sorcery, more tending towards the sci-fi end of the spectrum.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

I second Trudy's recommendation of Robin Hobb. They are excellent books in which the most unexpected turns cause irrevocable changes in the fortunes of the characters; 'things will never e the same' type twists.

And I love Eddings and his characters (or their characters, as his wife was a collaborator though not credited in the earlier books). Read the Belgariad (Pawn of Prophecy onwards) and if you like the world and the characters, go on to read the Mallorean. If you're not so fussed, but you like the writing, jump to the Elenium; it's a completely different world with new characters including church knights and the politics of electing a new Archprelate!

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Vulpior:
If you're not so fussed, but you like the writing, jump to the Elenium; it's a completely different world with new characters including church knights and the politics of electing a new Archprelate!

But still basically the same story, in which a group of suspiciously-familiar characters have to walk across the known world to rescue a magic blue rock and kill a god. And oh look, in the second set of books in each series, there's an evil red rock.

Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
If you haven't read any of Mark Chadbourn's amazing post-apocalyptic novels, I'd recommend you do so. They're dark, but they'll keep you gripped. Try The Age of Misrule, and see what you think.

I second this recommendation, although I'd suggest reading his Scissorman before the age of misrule

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.
Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.

YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!

Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Not to mention that it's extremely wearying to read page after page after page of the title character wallowing in self-pity. You hope for someone to come along and deliver a good ass-whuppin' just so he'll stop moaning for a bit.
Yeah, that was my main problem with the TC books. I just wanted to slap the main character ALL THE TIME.
YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!

I started out as a fifteen year old Tolkien nut, havent changed much since and when I first read the Thomas Covenant books was so deeply disappointed at the flimsiness of them and TC's wilful disbelief that I rarely read other fantasy fiction after that. My cousin and alterego in Canada is a huge fantasy fan but after Quenya and Sindarin there was nothing in the modern genre attracted my interest. Still, I really love William Morris and George MacDonald, but that's my Lewisian side showing.

Once and Future King is just bloody brilliant though. Makes me want to go back to the west of England, find a decent pub in Somerset with accommodation for a week and hole up with a supply of pipe tobacco, decent beer, agreeable literate female company and walks and reading it again inbetween.

[ 23. March 2013, 00:14: Message edited by: Ronald Binge ]

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
YES! YES! I'M NOT ALONE!

Get to the back of the queue.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

I would rate N K Jemisin's The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms pretty highly. For some reason it starts off feeling very clichéd and pretentious, and then suddenly it morphs into something a lot more original and clever.

And another vote for Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun. Very weird and evocative. And, though not high fantasy, Gene Wolfe's The Fifth Head of Cerberus is definitely a candidate in my eyes for Best Science Fiction Book Ever.

Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :

I am first and foremost a Tolkien reader when it comes to fantasy. I have read 'The Lord of the Rings' at least nine times and 'The Hobbit' several times. I actually started reading JRRT with 'The Silmarillion' and it didn't put me off! Far from it! I liked Christopher Tolkien putting the Turin stories into one book: 'The Children of Hurin'.

I have read Julian May's books that Ken recommends. I read a friend's copies back in the 1980s. I bought and re-read the first 'The Many Coloured Land' recently but have had difficulty finding the rest of the series in both new and second hand bookshops.

I did read the 'Thomas Covenant' books when I was about 17, as a friend recommended them. I quite liked them, but didn't think by any means they were 'better than Tolkien' (which this friend thought they were - I don't think he'd actually read any Tolkien! [Disappointed]

) I shall probably not re-read them.

I also like Dunsany's 'The King of Elfland's Daughter' (see Ken above) and have read some William Morris ('The Wood Beyond the World' stand out).

I have bought and read loads of Terry Pratchett. I was reading him before he was famous, back in 1985, and laughing out loud on public transport!

[ 23. March 2013, 10:47: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

It's been a while since I read them, but I used to like Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World trilogy. (Metalsmith makes magic items and fights ice gods, replaying a couple of other smith legends as he does so.)

Poul Anderson's Broken Sword is good: if you can find it read the revised version.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

If I might...

Julian May has just been released with new covers: I may get them all, just so I can replace my very worn copies.

Poul Anderson's Broken Sword is excellent.

Stephen Lawhead's Pendragon Cycle (read the first three of the 5).

If you're up some really very dark sword-and-sorcery, I can highly recommend Karl Edward Wagner's Kane books.

Two current writers (who are also friends, but their writing is excellent) Juliet McKenna, and Chaz Brenchley's Outremer series (UK 3 books, US 6 books - the same books as the UK, just cut in half each time).

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

For a more graphic take on sword and sorcery (in both senses of the word), try the Slaine collected editions, created by Pat Mills. Celtic mysticism, extreme gore and beautiful illustration especially by Simon Bisley (although I'm not sure of some of the later editions, 're-inked' by computer, they look a bit shiny for 4th century Ireland.)

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Yrs! Bisley! Slaine! 2000!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Poul Anderson did a trilogy about the lost land of Ys and I can't remember the names - how awful, but I liked them.

And Alan Garner has just had published a completion to the Weirdstone and Gomrath, which I have but have not started yet. Boneland

Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on :

It's not high fantasy, exactly, because it's not really Epic and mostly follows a few main characters, but Lois McMaster Bujold's Chalion series is awesome. (She is best known for a SF series, the Vorkosigan Saga, but has been branching out into fantasy in recent years.)

The world-building is really interesting, especially around the religion of Chalion. She's also great at both character and plot, which you don't always get in SF and fantasy.

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Not strictly Fantasy but some of the Arthurian/Merlin legend retellings would seem to almost fall into this category.

Jengie
In which category I'd make a special plea for T.H.White's beautiful The Once and Future King. I love the way it starts as a whimsical children's comedy but builds up to a dark, complex retelling of "the Matter of England". Profoundly humane. And the last scene always makes me cry.

To which I would like to add Mary Stewart's Merlin trilogy (The Crystal Cave/The Hollow Hill/The Last Enchantment) and the (post-Merlin) sequel The Wicked Day. Not so much world- as history-building, but with enough magic for it to qualify as Sword and sort-of-Sorcery.

Without the Sword element, Diana Wynne Jones's novels are worth a read, even though many are aimed at (or at least marketed for) a junior audience. The world-building often comes in the form of parallel universes, which is why some people (and publishers) refer to them as SF, but most are really fantasy. My favourite is Deep Secret.
Once you know some straight S&S-type fantasy, I can also recommend her parody The Dark Lord of Derkholm.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Someone mentioned Patricia McKillip, and certainly her Riddle-Master trilogy is among the best traditional high fantasy works. R.A. MacAvoy's A Trio For Lute is another. And Joy Chant's The Grey Mane of Morning is yet another.

I mostly read urban fantasy these days (and I'm picky about that) because the imaginary world fantasies all seem so derivative. But I keep hoping.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

I'm going to slide High Fantasy in to Sword and Sorcery.

Lud in the Mist is a fantasy that manages to avoid any influence of Tolkien by the clever stratagem of being written before LOTR. I think it's a crypto Lesbian novel but you may find that a stretch.

Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner is a sword and sorcery novel and a gay romance.

A useful corrective to Howard and friends is The Iron Dream by Norman Spinrad. It's a novel written to an alternate world where an unemployed painter named Adolf Hitler migrates to the United States during the Depression and becomes a pulp fiction writer and writes Lord of the Swastikas.

To chip in on books already mentioned

Poul Anderson has written a number of Fantasy books. Three Hearts and Three Lions as well as "The Broken Sword mentioned earlier.

Ursula Leguin's Earthsea books comtinue past the trilogy and become more interesting if less jevenile.

Zelazny's Amber series starts with a spectacular trilogy and sags down hill into a soap opera series. Try Lord Of Light for an interesting fantasy.

In the non sword sorcerey fantasy's I recommend Avram Davidson's The Phoenix and The Mirror, part of a series about the Vergil Magus,

And finally Fritz Leiber's Series about Fafhrd and the Grey mouser in the great city of Lankhmar is funny as well as adventurous.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Before reading the Dark Lord of Derkholm by Diana Wynne Jones, try her "The Tough Guide to Fantasy Land", which is a wicked send up of the samey-wamey style of things - I cannot imagine that she was exactly persona grata at conventions afterwards. (But what do I know, I've never been to one?) I particularly like the map. Reading it will show just what she was up to with that book, and its sequel (The Year of The Griffin".

Possibly a bit more aimed at a female market, I enjoyed Josepha Sherman's "The Shining Falcon" a retelling of an old Russian folk tale. I read it three times without a pause to get all the good bits - I think I had flu at the time. She's done a lot of fantasy and SF (Star Trek, Buffy etc). (A mention of the missing mass problem when shapeshifting I was entertained by.) Someone else also did some Russian retellings, but I can't remember the name! Sherman only did a few things I came across.

Another similar author is Judith Tarr. Perhaps for younger people, like some of Diana wynned Jones.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Read *everything* by Diana Wynne Jones!

And Joan Aiken's "Black hearts in Battersea" and related books. So what that they are targetted at children? They are good.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I agree *everything* - but do read Tough Guide before Derkholm. It's full of bits to read out to anyone you are sharing the room with, and fall around hysterically together about.

[ 25. March 2013, 19:26: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I spotted William Nicholson in the Oxfam bookshop today - the Wind Singer series.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I've just had reason to scan through Revelation for the first time for a while (a matter of an inscription on a martyrs' memorial). It resonated with this thread for some reason.

Posted by Hawk (# 14289) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
For a more graphic take on sword and sorcery (in both senses of the word), try the Slaine collected editions, created by Pat Mills. Celtic mysticism, extreme gore and beautiful illustration especially by Simon Bisley (although I'm not sure of some of the later editions, 're-inked' by computer, they look a bit shiny for 4th century Ireland.)

Slaine (pronounced Slauncher) is brilliant. It started in 1983 in the pages of 2000AD with a dose of aliens and sci-fi additions and I thought it took a little time to find its feet and its raison d'etre. It was just a series of adventures as Slaine wanders around aimlessly fighting things.

But then it settles into magic, monsters, epic battles, and then time travel as Slaine is transported across the centuries by the nature goddess he serves to fight for her against the forces of progress and civilisation, while falling in tragic love with the multiple reincarnations of his soulmate. (According to Mills, everything civilised is a tool of interdimensional aliens who want to enslave mankind with such such awful chains as language, religion, and technology). Mills is a bit of a nutcase at times, but his writing at its best is brilliant. And the artwork is often astounding. I'd recommend the collected graphic novels: The Horned God (artist Simon Bisley), Demon Killer, and Lords of Misrule (main artists Glenn Fabry and Greg Staples).

Unfortunately in recent years with the graphic novels The Books of Invasions it's become a messy mess of messness. The art by Clint Langley made of shiny digital photography and exquisite painting is beautiful but pointless, the writing has no direction, and the plots are just a series of fights. Great fun, at times, for battles with detailed and imaginatively disgusting monsters, but leaves me cold.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I've not been able to get hold of anything by Diana Wynne Jones. The local Waterstones didn't have any and neither does the library. I'd be reluctant to buy one straight from Amazon, sight unseen, but in the event that I do see any of her books, where do I start? More than one person has recommmended them.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

Diana Wynne Jones does children's books or young adult books, as enjoyed by all ages. Several recommendations, because as you say, it's pot luck what you can find.

Fire and Hemlock, is highly thought of. The primary audience is also at the older end of her age range. However, Jones tends to over-compress her endings (in a what just happened kind of way), and I think it's one of the worst examples.

Charmed Life, is the first of the Chrestomanci series; of which subsequent highlights are Witch Week and The Lives of Christopher Chant.

Howl's Moving Castle got made into a film by Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli.

The Dalemark Quartet comprises The Spellcoats, Cart and Cwidder, Drowned Ammet, (which can be read in any order) and then Crown of Dalemark (which is a sequel to the lot).

Selected recommended others: The Ogre Downstairs, Eight Days of Luke, Power of Three, Archer's Goon.

Of those, I think I'd suggest Howl's Moving Castle and Charmed Life to start with. Fire and Hemlock if you want to start with something whose primary audience is a bit older.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
I have read and very much enjoyed enjoyed the first two books of the Earthsea quartet and am in the process of (slooowly) reading LoTR.

It's a quintet now I think and the good news is they get even better as you go along.

Huia

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
It's a quintet now I think and the good news is they get even better as you go along.

I think the first three books are one thing. The fourth book is a feminist critique of the first three. (Not a bad thing, but I think many male fans who had grown up with the first three felt they were being got at for liking those. But Le Guin and the world had moved on.) I haven't read the fifth.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Diana Wynne Jones does children's books or young adult books, as enjoyed by all ages. Several recommendations, because as you say, it's pot luck what you can find.

Thanks, Dafyd. The local bookshop actually had one copy of each of Howl's Moving Castle, and Charmed Life, so I got the latter and am off to read it.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

There are six Earth Sea books to date. They are one of my most recent explores into fantasy. I have at least partially read all but Tales from Earthsea. Unfortunately due to circumstance I started with "The Other Wind" which is good but the others pale by comparison when read in that order.

Jengie

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

Thanks for the Advices Everyone!

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

So I'm definitely going to look into Game of Thrones! and probably also the Dalemark Quartet because Irina Rempt did a review of it

Posted by not entirely me (# 17637) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I spotted William Nicholson in the Oxfam bookshop today - the Wind Singer series.

Great trilogy - for kids books they are incredibly depressing but gripping.

Also recommend Patrick Rothfuss - totally pretentious but revelling in it and having fun with it.

Don't be afraid of the teen section - Garth Nix's Abhorsen series are fantastic.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

I just got round to reading CJ Cherryh's Morgaine books. Bopught a combined volume containing thtee of them.

I guess I was always going to read them sooner or later as I've rfead pretty much all of her more obviously science-fictional stuff (I've got 24 or 25 of her books on my shelves - I just counted.

Much the same sort of sword-and-sorcery on the surface but SF beneath kind of stuff I was talking about before. Maybe not as good as Marion Zimmer Bradley (who is the queen of that sub-genre) or Mary Gentle (who hasn't written much bits all good and some of it is brilliant) but to my mind a better read than Anne McCaffrey or Andre Norton.

And yes, one of the many books out of which "Game of Thrones" is built. (Not that I'm saying there is any plagiarism going on - but GRRM is very very well-read in fantasy and SF and he knows what he is doing)

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I generally preach the gospel of Rothfuss wherever I go, so I'll third that here. Also a name I haven't seen yet is CS Friedman. I prefer her most recent series, but have enjoyed everything she wrote. Her first series is a bit cliche, but pretty good all the same.
(Wrote down a few names as I read through. Thanks all!)

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I just got round to reading CJ Cherryh's Morgaine books. Bopught a combined volume containing thtee of them.

And yes, one of the many books out of which "Game of Thrones" is built. (Not that I'm saying there is any plagiarism going on - but GRRM is very very well-read in fantasy and SF and he knows what he is doing)

Well, it's not hard to spot which well-known fantasy author Cherryh had been reading when she came up with the central character. (Albino, not quite human, angsty outcast, special sword that kills people at a touch.) Influence is not plagiarism.

[ 15. April 2013, 21:39: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

Welcome to the Ship, not entirely me! I'm glad you found us and posted here in Heaven.

Be sure to check out the rest of the decks, and you may want to say 'hello' on the welcome thread in All Saints.

jedijudy-
Heaven Host

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Much the same sort of sword-and-sorcery on the surface but SF beneath kind of stuff I was talking about before. Maybe not as good as Marion Zimmer Bradley (who is the queen of that sub-genre) or Mary Gentle (who hasn't written much bits all good and some of it is brilliant) but to my mind a better read than Anne McCaffrey or Andre Norton.

Just to say here that I have started reading MZ Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, which is very promising [Smile]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

quote:
The Dalemark Quartet comprises The Spellcoats, Cart and Cwidder, Drowned Ammet, (which can be read in any order) and then Crown of Dalemark (which is a sequel to the lot).

Personally I'd read them in that order, though The Spellcoats could be read either first or third. Some of the events in Drowned Ammet happen after those in Cart and Cwidder, don't they? Although the timelines do overlap to a certain extent.

If we're talking about the Chrestomanci series chronologically, shouldn't 'The Lives of Christopher Chant' come first? I know 'Charmed Life' was WRITTEN first, but from the point of view of the characters it would make more sense to start with Christopher's childhood. It's like the Narnia dilemma - do you read the books in the order they were written or not...

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I think it works best to read the Chrestomanci series in the order in which they are written, because having read "The Lives" first spoils the gradual lifting of Cat's ignorance in "Charmed Life" - in my opinion, that is.

I read the Narnia books in the order of publication - no other order being available at the time - and not having read "Magician's Nephew" first was not a problem.

But then we used to arrive at the cinema part way through the B movie, and had to watch the beginning after the main film and sort it out in our heads afterwards.

And "The Return of the King" came into the library before "The Two Towers", and it didn't matter to me. (I read it in the right order later.)

And in another genre, I got hold of Lindsay Davis' second Falco book before "The Silver Pigs".

I would definitely, however, suggest that reading "Christopher" after "Charmed Life" allows a sense of delight in recognising explanations for him in the latter book, knowing what is coming. Knowing all about him and Millie when reading "Charmed Life" really would give the game away, and leave the reader thinking "why aren't they doing something?" instead of seeing events from Cat's point of view.

[ 16. April 2013, 15:04: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think it works best to read the Chrestomanci series in the order in which they are written, because having read "The Lives" first spoils the gradual lifting of Cat's ignorance in "Charmed Life" - in my opinion, that is.

I read the Narnia books in the order of publication - no other order being available at the time - and not having read "Magician's Nephew" first was not a problem.

But then we used to arrive at the cinema part way through the B movie, and had to watch the beginning after the main film and sort it out in our heads afterwards.

And "The Return of the King" came into the library before "The Two Towers", and it didn't matter to me. (I read it in the right order later.)

And in another genre, I got hold of Lindsay Davis' second Falco book before "The Silver Pigs".

I would definitely, however, suggest that reading "Christopher" after "Charmed Life" allows a sense of delight in recognising explanations for him in the latter book, knowing what is coming. Knowing all about him and Millie when reading "Charmed Life" really would give the game away, and leave the reader thinking "why aren't they doing something?" instead of seeing events from Cat's point of view.

Seconded. The Chrestomanci books seem to work best when they're read in the order Wynne Jones wrote them, even though some of them fill in gaps between the others.

Howl's Moving Castle is fabulous, but the other books in the series are great fun - Castle in the Air and House of Many Ways. The Magids series is also lovely - Deep Secret and the Merlin Conspiracy.

I'd agree with the poster who commented that her endings can sometimes feel a bit rushed - particularly in some of the later books.

Ariel, the books have started coming out on Kindle so you could try a few sample chapters to see if they're your sort of thing.

Tubbs

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

When "Howl's Moving Castle" has been read, try the film. I found it good, but different - and no way could I see Howl as a rugby player. I liked the representation of the demon, though. Don't see the film first. It belongs better with Studio Ghibli's other work than Wynne Jones'.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

While I agree about most of what has been said about Thomas Covenant I would add thwt as a study in despair (as opposed to Christian Hope) the books taught me a lot.

And while some would argue that Anne Mccafery (Dragon books) was sci fi my take it that it is very enjoyable fantasy. Not "high" I accept but fun an real.

Fly safe. Pxy_e

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I read the Covenant books when I was around 16, and at the time I liked them. Especially the way in which magic is portrayed not as a one-stop solution to your problems, but as something that you have to be careful of: watch what you wish for, everying has consequences.

I tried to pick them up again 15 years later, and had to put them down after 30 pages or so, because they were just too depressing. It is interesting that I didn't notice this much when I read them as a teenager, I wonder what this says about myself.

I don't read much Fantasy anymore, for 'light' reading I got more interested in hardcore SF.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I read Apulieus "The Golden Ass" when I was a teenager. I still don't understand it, but couldn't get into it again. I think our teenage minds are up for stuff without questioning it as much as we do later. (This comment would work whether Apulieus is fantasy or not.)

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Penny S:

quote:
I think it works best to read the Chrestomanci series in the order in which they are written, because having read "The Lives" first spoils the gradual lifting of Cat's ignorance in "Charmed Life" - in my opinion, that is.

Having thought about it a bit more, I agree with this. But there are interesting parallels between the two books - Christopher spends most of his time in 'Lives' blundering about in ignorance of what's going on.

My favourite book in the 'Howl's Moving Castle' sequence is 'House of Many Ways', though it's a close-run thing. As the eldest of three, I always thought fairy tales were unfairly biased towards the youngest child!

(Howl is definitely a rugby player - that's why he comes in drunk one night in the book! He used to fly up the wing for his university, remember?)

[ 22. April 2013, 10:18: Message edited by: Jane R ]

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's hardly worth it for the mockery and derision you get from readers of "proper" literature.

Funnily enough, not around here. I think there are enough people for whom reading "proper" literature in their spare time would be too much of a busman's holiday...

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Karl:

quote:
It's hardly worth it for the mockery and derision you get from readers of "proper" literature.

Who cares what they think?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Jane, in the book, the rugby is important - in the film, Howl's build totally rules him out, he's all slender and musclefree, and it was this I was commenting on.

And as also the eldest of three, I so agree with you! (One of the reasons I could never get into Lewis's "Till we have faces"). Grrr.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When "Howl's Moving Castle" has been read, try the film. I found it good, but different - and no way could I see Howl as a rugby player. I liked the representation of the demon, though. Don't see the film first. It belongs better with Studio Ghibli's other work than Wynne Jones'.

I agree with all this. The airships in the film were a bit much. Also, Michael became a little child instead of a 15 year old boy, which jarred a bit. They'd streamlined the story, all the Welshness was taken out and everyone spoke with American accents, but I'd still definitely recommend watching it. Calcifer was an appealing little character and for what it was, it was very well done.

I'm on to "Castle in the Air" tonight (book) and shall have to get the third in the series.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
When "Howl's Moving Castle" has been read, try the film. I found it good, but different - and no way could I see Howl as a rugby player. I liked the representation of the demon, though. Don't see the film first. It belongs better with Studio Ghibli's other work than Wynne Jones'.
I agree with all this. The airships in the film were a bit much. Also, Michael became a little child instead of a 15 year old boy, which jarred a bit. They'd streamlined the story, all the Welshness was taken out and everyone spoke with American accents, but I'd still definitely recommend watching it. Calcifer was an appealing little character and for what it was, it was very well done.

I'm on to "Castle in the Air" tonight (book) and shall have to get the third in the series.

Some of the relationships were completely different as well. And the slow realisation of where the name Howl came from and the awfulness of his position as he tried to protect his family was also lost.

If you like the film, try "Spirited Away" and "Arrietty" (Yes, they've done the same sort of thing with the Borrowers, but better than the American film version, I think.)

[ 22. April 2013, 21:24: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

<re Howl's Moving Castle> I liked the film, but it was completely different to the book. It's very strange because I don't usually like films that take so many liberties with their source material, but I did like it... it had most of the important ideas, just in a different way (though I agree Calcifer was a bit too cute).

I've heard DWJ liked it - don't know how true this is.

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :

She gave an interview on the DVD I have where she was very enthusiastic, especially about the bit where Sophie and the Witch climb the stairs.

I saw the movie, then read the book. I like both, but they are very different. I've since read the book several times, along with House of Many Ways, which is also excellent. You can't imagine the movie Howl crashing in late at night, drunk and singing Sospan Fach. - he's far too civilised!

[ 23. April 2013, 09:37: Message edited by: Athrawes ]

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I've heard DWJ liked it - don't know how true this is.

The story has it that Ursula Le Guin let Miyazaki film Earthsea on the strength of Howl's Moving Castle. However, Miyazaki's son wanted to do it, and he did it as a standard anime which wasn't what Le Guin had in mind.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Just to say here that I have started reading MZ Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, which is very promising .

A good read but in lots of ways the least satisfactory of her later books. [Smile]

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Ah ok - I've still got to finish another (completely different) book before getting back to Avalon, but I'll see how it goes.

I love the Ship for all these different threads [Yipee]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I have just linked movie Howl with something I heard the geneticist Steven Jones say on the radio. He was postulating that in humans, there has been no sexual selection by females, which in nature has led to things like the peacocks' tails, since men are not extremely dissimilar to women. He holds that men are thus feminised. This, I think, is what has happened to film Howl. Not civilised so much as cissified.

(I don't agree with Jones the Genes, actually - what makes him think that intelligent women able to choose would go for hairy blokes twice their size and likely to beat them up? And I don't believe that men are feminised, either.)

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

If being masculine involves conversing in grunts, smelling like overripe Stilton and having no interests beyond football and beer, I think feminised men are a *good* thing.

There are all sorts of different kinds of sexual display, anyway. Weaver birds mate with the male who can build the best nest. ISTM that Jones the Genes is using an oversimplified view of sexual display to join in with the antifeminist backlash.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Or Jones the Genes is deliberately amusing himself by trying to stir up argument.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

I agree that the movie Howl is (or looks like) a bit of a sissy, but the book Howl is clearly not; he's as vain as a peacock and spends hours on his hair and clothes, but also plays/used to play rugby and is capable of flooring a lubbockin with a single blow - more like a modern-day Cavalier, or the proverbial Iron Fist in the Velvet Glove.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I quite agree with you - wasn't that clear? - on the book Howl. It's part of the unfolding of knowledge that reveals the more behind the emphasis on appearance, isn't it, that shows the rugby player?

Now this Howell had a castle
That went wand'ring round the moors
But it wasn't only moorland
You'd be reaching through his doors,

Did you never saw
Did you never saw
Did you never saw
Such a funny thing before?

Oops.

[ 03. May 2013, 16:27: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Yes, perfectly clear, Penny S - I wasn't disagreeing with you, just thinking aloud...

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

As much as it pains me to say it, I may end up Amazon-ing some of these, as Herts. library catalogue is annoyingly paltry e.g. it has volume 2 of Book of the Sun but not Volume 1.

But I recommended The Tough Guide to Fantasyland to a friend, who loves it, without having read it myself; I still have not read it!

Anyhow I've put in an interlibrary loan request but what will become of it I don't know.

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Continuing the Catholic theme, as well as Tolkien and May and Wolfe, RA Lafferty is/was also a serious Catholic, and shows it in his books. Which are always interesting and sometimes wonderful.

Any in particular?

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

ETA: the same friend who devoured The Tough Guide to Fantasyland warned me off reading Song of Ice and Fire because while the plot and world building may be good, the prose style is not the most eloquent in the world; I may start watching the TV programme thereof in stead.

All the Diana Wynne Jones is filed under "Older Children's," but I've quite unashamedly borrowed Astrid Lindgren's The Brothers Lionheart from the library before so...

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Lafferty is often at his best in his short stories. They're starting to be reprinted as a series since many of them are out of print.

If you can find "900 Grandmothers" that contains a number of gems including the title story.

For novels, "Past Master" is a favorite.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Thanks for mentioning "The Brothers Lionheart", scuffleball - I've been trying to recall the title in vain.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Just went to a Neil Gaiman reading of his new book "The Ocean at the end of the Lane". It's world building in the way Coraline was, but with much more autobiographical resonances.

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

Slightly sideways but Neil Gaiman. Start with Stardust and then Neverwhere or American Gods. American Gods just gets better every time you read it. Be warned. You will get hooked into graphic novels. V for Vendetta, Watchmen, Alan Moore... You will find yourself in the future scrabbling in the gutter looking for the comics from the Sunday paper....but I digress.
Neil Gaiman is very very good. But not unlike crack.

Posted by Patdys (# 9397) on :

First, I am sorry but missed the second page.
Palimpsest, wow. Not a bad story. I am enough of a fan boy to want to meet Neil.

And finally, to try and make my last post comprehensible, Gaiman writes books, graphic novels, screen plays etc and reading his novels leads to reading his other works like Sandman etc which leads on to other authors etc.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Gaiman was in Seattle on a book tour and to teach at the Clarion SF Writers Workshop. He seems to be a very kind man as well as funny.

He also read from an upcoming children's book "Fortunately the Milk" which is in the vein of "The day I swapped my dad for 2 goldfish"

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :

It's very true that reading Neil Gaiman leads on to other authors. I used his comic book 1602 as a "gateway drug" to some of the Marvel characters he used (transporting them to an alternate timeline 1602). So I've now become acquainted with Daredevil, for instance.
And the illustrator for Black Orchid is Dave McKean, who has worked with Neil Gaiman several times, and has also published his own graphic novels, which look quite interesting.

Posted by scuffleball (# 16480) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Thanks for mentioning "The Brothers Lionheart", scuffleball - I've been trying to recall the title in vain.

While we're on kids' stuff, Ronja Robbersdaughter too; theme 1980s films of both have beautiful music by Bjørn Isfælt although the special effects have dated. The Windsinger by William Nicholson is worth a go. The Letter for the King by Tonke Dragt is a classic for a good reason. Yes, it plays every fantasy trope completely unironically, and the translation mangles the poetry, but it still holds the attention.

On "Urban Fantasy" try Momo by Michael Ende or anything by David Almond or Jostein Gaarder. (Some Gaarder, like the Ringmaster's Daughter, is decidedly "adult" though.)

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Diana Wynne Jones does children's books or young adult books, as enjoyed by all ages. Several recommendations, because as you say, it's pot luck what you can find.

Fire and Hemlock, is highly thought of. The primary audience is also at the older end of her age range. However, Jones tends to over-compress her endings (in a what just happened kind of way), and I think it's one of the worst examples.

Charmed Life, is the first of the Chrestomanci series; of which subsequent highlights are Witch Week and The Lives of Christopher Chant.

Howl's Moving Castle got made into a film by Miyazaki and Studio Ghibli.

The Dalemark Quartet comprises The Spellcoats, Cart and Cwidder, Drowned Ammet, (which can be read in any order) and then Crown of Dalemark (which is a sequel to the lot).

Selected recommended others: The Ogre Downstairs, Eight Days of Luke, Power of Three, Archer's Goon.

Of those, I think I'd suggest Howl's Moving Castle and Charmed Life to start with. Fire and Hemlock if you want to start with something whose primary audience is a bit older.

I just got and read "Howl's Moving Castle" and enjoyed it. It's quite good and different from the movie. Are the sequels "Castle in Air" as good?

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Depends what you mean by as good. They are fun. They are different. All the secrets about the characters of the first book were revealed in that, and the sequels have different protagonists. Its rather like the later books in the Chrestomanci series in which Chrestomanci and Cat appear only in small parts as deii (small Latin, sorry) ex machinae. I tend to like the way that the first books have a gradual uncovering of plot information, which cannot happen in the later ones in the same way.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

If I'm allowed to mention thngs that aren't purely high fantasy, I am greatly enjoying Kevin Hearne's books--just finished his newest : )-- and Kelly McCullough's Blade series. (Thought his other series was only okay.)

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