Ship of Fools: Easter Vigil

Thread: Easter Vigil - length? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Went to my best ever. One hour, 24r minutes.

Nothing left out.

Is this a record?

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Not sure, but the one I went to at a church across the river (as sub-deacon, with our p-in-c presiding and preaching [Big Grin]

)lasted just over an hour-and-a-half. Again, nothing was left out AFAIK.

An A-C parish in the same Deanery has its Vigil starting at 9pm on Holy Saturday, and ending at midnight...... [Eek!]

Ian J.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

2 hours 45 minutes. Six readings, three adult baptisms.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Went to my best ever. One hour, 24r minutes.

Nothing left out.

Is this a record?

It must be. How did you manage that? I went to my local church and they only used 3 readings and Psalms and it still took 2 hours 15 mins!

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
An A-C parish in the same Deanery has its Vigil starting at 9pm on Holy Saturday, and ending at midnight......

Pretty standard, I would say, unless there is a huge class of baptizandi and confirmandi, in which case it would be a little longer.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I think about an hour and a half, with only three (short) OT readings, no litany of the saints, but including four baptisms, a noisy interlude pre-Gloria when the altar triptych was opened, and the homily of St John Chrysostom. Followed by fireworks, but not included in the timing.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

We came in just under 2 hours, with the New Fire, Exsultet, 5 Prophecies (with Tracts & Collects), Litany of Saints, and the Mass following. No Blessing of the Font, as we don't have a permanent one (getting one is a personal priority).

Last year (our first go at the Vigil) we had 20 people. This year, 34. Still not many, but percentage-wise a huge increase!

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

2 hours 45. All the readings, two baptisms, 6 receptions, (so 8 confirmations), about 300 people to commune.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

1 hour 45 min. (started at 6AM Sunday morning when it still was totally dark).

-- 3 OT readings (with a collect after each but singing only after the Exodus reading) plus epistle and gospel readings.
-- 1 baptism (of a very vocal infant [Smile]

).
-- Being TEC-standard, Litany of the Saints isn't the custom at this shack.

A nice parish breakfast after

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

1 hr 20mins. 4 OT readings, no baptisms, but blessing of the font and renewal of baptismal vows. I was presiding: I don't do meditative silences at the Vigil in case anybody (including me) falls asleep!

Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :

About 90 minutes for us. Three OT readings with responsorial psalms and prayers afterwards. Brief blessing of the font without the Litany of the Saints, and four RCIA candidates all getting all three sacraments. The church was probably about 80% full.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Went to my best ever. One hour, 24r minutes.

Nothing left out.

Is this a record?

Depends on what you did.

My usual Vigil place (Episcopal) is shorter. This year, they had 1 hour and 8 minutes.

Four OT readings (2 followed by spoken Psalms, one by spoken Exodus canticle, one by a capella sung hymn with four verses)

No baptisms, but yes to blessing of water, renewal of baptismal vows, and sprinkling.

Sermon? Yes. 5m30s

Three Easter hymns with all verses sung to organ accompaniment. Sung Gloria, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamations, Great Amen. Sung anthem at fraction.

Smells? Yes. Bells? Yes.

Last year, they were 1 hour and 5 minutes. They're slacking.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

We were over an hour and a quarter without Mass,* 3 OT readings with sung psalm or canticle (creation, exodus, Jonah), new fire exsultet, Gloria, NT, Gradual, Gospel, Litany of Resurrection, Blessing of water, renewal of vows, sprinkling, commission, blessing of Easter Garden.

But I think the vigil should be long. It's amazing and takes what it takes.

*don't ask, I haven't figured out why!

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

We went about 1 hr 20 mins, which included the full Exultet, including bees, but no blessing of the font. Being a BCP parish that ceremony always seems a bit redundant as we bless the water at every baptism.

This being the western outpost of "Snakebelly Land" only 10 people out of a congregation of fifty present. As it has been fading attendance-wise the last few years, I am coming to the conclusion that it might need to be put out of its misery soon.

PD

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

We were about 2.5 hours, with six OT readings and one confirmation.

I'm trying to wrap my mind around a Vigil that lasts less than 2 hours. I can't imagine how one pulls it off. Even when there are no sacraments of initiation we go over 2 hours. Heck, our regular Sunday Mass runs about 1 hour and 10 minutes.

I'm not really interested in a shorter vigil, but I'm curious: what's your secret?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

It's usually us Anglicans who take time over our liturgies. Catholics are known for short and snappy! But I suppose if you take it seriously and follow the book it must take a fair amount of time.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I'm sorry that a lot of Anglican places follow one Times and Seasons option and have the lighting of the fire and blessing of the candle after the OT readings. Surely that messes up the symbolism?

And why has the C of E cut the reference to "O felix culpa"?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Went to my best ever. One hour, 24r minutes.

Nothing left out.

Is this a record?
It must be. How did you manage that? I went to my local church and they only used 3 readings and Psalms and it still took 2 hours 15 mins!

Longish procession from car park to church with candle sheathed in a glass thing.
Full exultet.
4 OT, 2 NT reading (The Genesis 1 was trimmed but that is an option in the book)
Adult baptism (no Litany of Sts as that isn't in the C of E book)
Mass setting by Sumsion - sanctus, benedictus and agnus only. The gloria was sung to a hymn tune)

so nothing left out
80 communicants

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
no Litany of Sts as that isn't in the C of E book

P24 of this PDF.

Thurible

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

And why has the C of E cut the reference to "O felix culpa"?

It hasn't'; I certainly sang it the other night. It appears on p 337 of Times and Seasons (about two thirds of the way down) and in the subsequent alternative versions of the Exsultet.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
no Litany of Sts as that isn't in the C of E book
P24 of this PDF.

Thurible

Even better if you substitute a different response. If you don't like 'pray for us' you could sing 'come, join your prayers with ours'.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Somehow this reminds me that the worst enemy to worship, in my book, is the clock. What will happen when you people will be at the final feast that has no end?

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Somehow this reminds me that the worst enemy to worship, in my book, is the clock. What will happen when you people will be at the final feast that has no end?

They'll be in the hall, making coffee. [Big Grin]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

And why has the C of E cut the reference to "O felix culpa"?
It hasn't'; I certainly sang it the other night. It appears on p 337 of Times and Seasons (about two thirds of the way down) and in the subsequent alternative versions of the Exsultet.

Thanks. The phrase "happy fault" comes at the end of the sentence rather than at the beginning so I missed it skimming through.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
We were over an hour and a quarter without Mass,*

*don't ask, I haven't figured out why!

Some churchmen are convinced (despite evidence to the contrary) that attendance at the Vigil will draw away from attendance on Easter Sunday--so they will only do the Vigil exclusive of the Eucharist. I think that's a terrible mistake, but there you go.

An ecclesiastical superior of mine refused to allow the full Vigil for years for just this reason. I declined to celebrate the Vigil at all if there were no Mass. Finally last year, we acquired permission for the full service, and my experience has been that the people who are hardcore enough to show up for a Saturday evening service will also come the next morning. In the rare cases where this is not so, it's doubtful whether the attendees on Saturday would have been able to attend the next day anyway--we had a number of visitors, for example, from a local non-denom church who came for the Vigil but attended services in their own church on Sunday.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Southwark Cathedral did a vigil with diocesan confirmation but without mass.

I believe the rationale is to allow the newly confirmed to make their first communion in their parish church.

There is the argument that the vigil is the prelude to what is then concluded the next morning.

A church I used to go to used to have a Saturday evening vigil with mass and then a Sunday morning.

The previous rector introduced a 5 am vigil in the dark, followed by 6am new fire (now in the light of dawn) and mass all followed by breakfast.

The new rector is having all that and then the main service on Easter morning is advertised as "An All Age Celebration of Easter". I'd like to think that "celebration" in that title means the eucharist but not wanting to put people off.

I'd rather have the works on Saturday night. The readings are different in any case.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Somehow this reminds me that the worst enemy to worship, in my book, is the clock. What will happen when you people will be at the final feast that has no end?

I'm rather hoping the feast that has no end won't be happening on the night the clocks go forward an hour.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Southwark Cathedral did a vigil with diocesan confirmation but without mass.

I believe the rationale is to allow the newly confirmed to make their first communion in their parish church.

I wonder how many of them overslept this year?
Anyway, Southwark have been admitting unconfirmed children to communion for years, so this 'first communion' thing is probably irrelevant in most cases.

Posted by LostinChelsea (# 5305) on :

We were about 90 minutes. Used to be longer, but now only use four readings, followed by collects. Begin, of course, outside with the paschal fire and procession, the Exsultet (no bees, but apiarists could use some extra prayers these days!), and include Thanksgiving over Water and renewal of baptismal vows.

I wish attendance were greater, but at 40 percent of our average Sunday attendance, I suppose that's pretty good.

Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :

Derby Cathedral also had a vigil with confirmation but no eucharist, lasting an hour and a quarter. Record numbers at the main Sunday Eucharist too. I rather like the new arrangement.

SS

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LostinChelsea:
We were about 90 minutes. Used to be longer, but now only use four readings, followed by collects. Begin, of course, outside with the paschal fire and procession, the Exsultet (no bees, but apiarists could use some extra prayers these days!), and include Thanksgiving over Water and renewal of baptismal vows.

I wish attendance were greater, but at 40 percent of our average Sunday attendance, I suppose that's pretty good.

Bloody near miraculous, I would say! Here in Snakebelly-land we are lucky if we get 20% of ASA.

PD

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

1 hour 45 minutes - everything you could wish for except Litany of the Saints and candidates for Christian initiation.

I was in my element as thurifer and I had much favourable comment about that.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I'm sorry that a lot of Anglican places follow one Times and Seasons option and have the lighting of the fire and blessing of the candle after the OT readings. Surely that messes up the symbolism?

Why? That's the order I prefer. Vigil kept in the dark and then the blaze of light and on into the Mass. Other way seems to go backwards to me.

quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Derby Cathedral also had a vigil with confirmation but no eucharist, lasting an hour and a quarter. Record numbers at the main Sunday Eucharist too. I rather like the new arrangement.

When you say new, how new? I ask because you gained a Canon from us last year and I'm wondering whether there is a link there. I'm with Fr Weber on this one, I don't think it detracts from Easter day. In fact one person has said to me that he (and his wife) did the Vigil but avoided Easter morning because it tends to be crowded so they missed communion.

Carys

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

It was ever so nice, to my mind, having the vigil by candlelight.

But if you have the readings first, you must have some light, or nobody can read. In which case, the first fire is no longer the first light.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
It was ever so nice, to my mind, having the vigil by candlelight.

But if you have the readings first, you must have some light, or nobody can read. In which case, the first fire is no longer the first light.

We just had the readers escorted to the podium by a fleet of (adult) acolytes carrying candles.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I don't want to make a big thing of the difference - having a vigil at all is the big thing.

But if there's a fleet of acolytes, they have to light their candles somehow. In which case there's not much point in blessing the new fire and re-lighting all the lights in the church from it after lights have been in use.

That's what I meant by messing up the symbolism. When I've attended vigils with the fire after the OT readings, the readers have used hand torches and the rest of the church is in total darkness, which, OK I'll admit, has a certain symbolic power. It doesn't seem as cosy as a candlelit church.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

The OT readings aren't about waiting in darkness. They're about the mirabilia dei, God's firey love revealed in history. Now, the lights intensify when we get to Christ, there's a newness about him which is yet more brilliant. But that's the contrast: a fire intesifying, not absence to presence.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Glad to hear that theory, hart.

I will admit that I always found it a bit of a disappointment when the electric lights went on at the Gloria after the candlelit vigil. It was so lovely in the light of the new fire on its own.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

This whole thread seems to me to be an object lesson in missing the point, particularly the OP. The point about the vigil is waiting through the night for the dawning of the light of Easter. Patience and waiting in silence are the point of the exercise.

The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week". How darned inconsiderate of our Lord....

I thought our two hours at 8.30 constituted completely unseemly haste. The teneor of the above leaves me completely

[Disappointed]

[ 03. April 2013, 17:55: Message edited by: FooloftheShip ]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Glad to hear that theory, hart.

I will admit that I always found it a bit of a disappointment when the electric lights went on at the Gloria after the candlelit vigil. It was so lovely in the light of the new fire on its own.

Though not as disappointing as lighting the new fire outside, then coming into a church that still has the majority of lights turned on.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Derby Cathedral also had a vigil with confirmation but no eucharist

That's like coitus interuptus.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
no Litany of Sts as that isn't in the C of E book
P24 of this PDF.

Thurible

Oh yes - I remember we used to have that at All Saints tide.

But the book doesn't list it as an option for the Easter Vigil

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This whole thread seems to me to be an object lesson in missing the point, particularly the OP. The point about the vigil is waiting through the night for the dawning of the light of Easter. Patience and waiting in silence are the point of the exercise.

The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week". How darned inconsiderate of our Lord....

I thought our two hours at 8.30 constituted completely unseemly haste. The teneor of the above leaves me completely

But it's the climax of the Christian Year and we want the whole community to be there, kids included.

If we went all through the night, we'd only get a very small turnout - especially as we have already done the Maundy Thursday watch earlier in the week.

The liturgy takes us outside time so we don't need to do 'real time'.

Posted by Spiffy (# 5267) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I don't want to make a big thing of the difference - having a vigil at all is the big thing.

But if there's a fleet of acolytes, they have to light their candles somehow. In which case there's not much point in blessing the new fire and re-lighting all the lights in the church from it after lights have been in use.

That's what I meant by messing up the symbolism. When I've attended vigils with the fire after the OT readings, the readers have used hand torches and the rest of the church is in total darkness, which, OK I'll admit, has a certain symbolic power. It doesn't seem as cosy as a candlelit church.

Ah, I didn't see the part about the fire after the readings. We set stuff on fire before the readings, as is right and proper.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Good on you, spiffy.

I've certainly read in my beautifully modulated and thrilling baritone a reading with an acolyte each side and my hand held candle hovering dropping wax over the page.

There is no ideal way of doing the Vigil: here's my totally impractical suggestion that won't catch on -

Lighting of new fire, Exsultet and illumination of church c 5 am or 4.30

Vigil of readings lasting until dawn, so natural daylight begins to show and become apparent just at the Gloria.

I agree it can't go on too long. I've only heard all nine readings when I was staying at Hillfield Friary some thirty years ago, starting at 5 am. It snowed that Easter.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This whole thread seems to me to be an object lesson in missing the point, particularly the OP. The point about the vigil is waiting through the night for the dawning of the light of Easter. Patience and waiting in silence are the point of the exercise.

The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week". How darned inconsiderate of our Lord....

I thought our two hours at 8.30 constituted completely unseemly haste. The teneor of the above leaves me completely

But it's the climax of the Christian Year and we want the whole community to be there, kids included.

If we went all through the night, we'd only get a very small turnout - especially as we have already done the Maundy Thursday watch earlier in the week.

The liturgy takes us outside time so we don't need to do 'real time'.

But that's not a vigil. A vigil is a vigil is a vigil. That may be a liturgy of readings, but it's not a vigil and it's dishonest to describe it as such. A vigil is a process of waiting from dusk til dawn. End of.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The Russian Orthodox Cathedral in Ennismore Gardens has an All Night Vigil every Saturday which ends before 10pm.

OK, that's decadent, but it strikes me in this self-indulgent age spend a substantial time during the night in prayer can be described as a vigil.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This whole thread seems to me to be an object lesson in missing the point, particularly the OP. The point about the vigil is waiting through the night for the dawning of the light of Easter. Patience and waiting in silence are the point of the exercise.

The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week". How darned inconsiderate of our Lord....

I thought our two hours at 8.30 constituted completely unseemly haste. The teneor of the above leaves me completely

But it's the climax of the Christian Year and we want the whole community to be there, kids included.

If we went all through the night, we'd only get a very small turnout - especially as we have already done the Maundy Thursday watch earlier in the week.

The liturgy takes us outside time so we don't need to do 'real time'.
But that's not a vigil. A vigil is a vigil is a vigil. That may be a liturgy of readings, but it's not a vigil and it's dishonest to describe it as such. A vigil is a process of waiting from dusk til dawn. End of.

OK, so let's call it what the C of E calls it: The Easter liturgy.

Also, How do you account for churches that do a 'Vigil mass' every Saturday evening for those working in shops or hotels all the next day? These usually take 45 minutes.

[ 04. April 2013, 15:30: Message edited by: leo ]

Posted by angelicum (# 13515) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
This whole thread seems to me to be an object lesson in missing the point, particularly the OP. The point about the vigil is waiting through the night for the dawning of the light of Easter. Patience and waiting in silence are the point of the exercise.

The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week". How darned inconsiderate of our Lord....

I thought our two hours at 8.30 constituted completely unseemly haste. The teneor of the above leaves me completely

But it's the climax of the Christian Year and we want the whole community to be there, kids included.

If we went all through the night, we'd only get a very small turnout - especially as we have already done the Maundy Thursday watch earlier in the week.

The liturgy takes us outside time so we don't need to do 'real time'.
But that's not a vigil. A vigil is a vigil is a vigil. That may be a liturgy of readings, but it's not a vigil and it's dishonest to describe it as such. A vigil is a process of waiting from dusk til dawn. End of.

But that begs the question...what specifically are we keeping Vigil for?

In a very real sense, we are of course keeping Vigil for the Lord's resurrection. But of course we also know that Christ is Risen. Every Sunday is celebrated as such as the Lord's day - the Paschal mystery is recalled and represented at every Mass, but especially at the Sunday Mass.

So then, on the very special evening of Holy Saturday - what is the Vigil for? What is the purpose of our 'watchfulness'?

Are we keeping Vigil for the sunrise? Are we keeping Vigil for the beginning of the solar day? Are we keeping Vigil for 00:00 Easter Sunday?

It is clear - we are keeping Vigil for the solemn celebration of the Paschal Mystery, that celebration of the Resurrection which is truly brought into the present at every Mass where once more we re-present to the Father the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary and give thanks (Eucharist) for Christ's victory over sin and death. 1 Corinthians which the Church refrains throughout her liturgy at Eastertide make this clear - "Christ, our Paschal lamb has been sacrificed for us; therefore let us feast."

It is clear, that we are keeping Vigil, not for daybreak - for we are not merely recreating historical events in their chronology as in a Passion Play - but rather our liturgical Vigil is for the First Mass of Easter. Following those days when the Mass is not offered, we once again rejoice ever more, for the night when in a special way we mark our Passover from sin to life, the Mass, the Holy Bread of Life and the Chalice of Eternal Salvation is offered for us.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
The ressurection doesn't happen until the 3rd day - "very early in the morning on the first day of the week".

No so the resurrection APPEARANCES happened early on Sunday morning. And they are commemorated at Easter Sunday morning masses.

The cosmic event whereby Christ defeated death after harrowing hell is a night time event.

In John 20:1 the stone had already been rolled away while 'it was still dark,'.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

As with any liturgy, the Vigil Mass isn't meant to be a historic re-enactment. It's us getting all restless and kicking the furniture because we've had a day without a Mass, and God saying, "Oh go on then. But make it a good one."

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Report here

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Good report that Leo. I was otherwise occupied (with a rather different but equally inspiring Vigil) and a couple of hundred miles away too, but it's always good to know of liturgies 'worth a detour' at least.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Ta.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Leo - report makes good reading. I especially like the idea of fireworks!

This year we managed the full Vigil and First Eucharist in just 75 minutes - but we are a small parish so numbers not great. (Big improvement on 2012 when 8 baptisms resulted in nearly 2 hours.)

On advantage of being a rural parish, though, is that when we are outside kindling the new fire it is absolutely pitch black - hell after the service but very atmospheric for the Vigil.

My best Vigil memory? A priest who managed to kindle the new fire using a magnifying glass and the setting sun - worked brilliantly; however, fire was kindled in a wheelbarrow which some gormless server then pushed into an unmown churchyard with savannah height grass, so beginning of the Exultet was enlivened by the sound of the local fire brigade's arrival to extinguish the conflagration. Remembered very fondly by many!! [Killing me]

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