Ship of Fools: State Funeral for Thatcher

Thread: State Funeral for Thatcher Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

As I write, it doesn't seem clear as to whether or not Herself will receive a State Funeral, but if she does, what liturgy/music would Shipmates deem suitable? Given that her background was Methodist, perhaps some rousing Wesley hymns would be appropriate?

Over to you.....

Ian J.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Not a 'state' funeral but on a level with Princess Di, apparently.

I bet they'll have 'I vow to thee my country'

Somewhere in the bowels of the ship, there is/was a long thread on this subject, in anticipation of this happy/tragic/interesting occasion - delete as appropriate.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

O dear God - they're not going to wheel on Elton John, are they.....?? [Eek!]

Ian J.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.

Thurible

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

The Rope-Holders Hymn has good Nonconformist credentials, admittedly Baptist rather than Methodist ...

[ 08. April 2013, 16:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Oh, and just when I was congratulating myself on avoiding all this business...

Anyways, I last I saw it was being reported that the Baroness will receive an official funeral in St. Paul's but not a state one 'in accordance with her wishes'.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

When I was a boy we used to sing a chorus which started "Marching beneath the banner, fighting beneath the Cross". This could be sung by a Trades Union choir, to wistfully bring back happy memories of industrial conflict that occurred during her reign.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
The Baroness will receive an official funeral in St. Paul's but not a state one 'in accordance with her wishes'.

That's nicely ambiguous - you imply that her wishes were for a State one but that she won't get it. Which isn't, I think, what you meant!

Posted by Swick (# 8773) on :

I remember reading that although Baroness Thatcher was raised Methodist, she became an Anglican.

Great Welsh hymns would be "Immortal, Invisible" and "Guide me O, Thou Great Redeemer/Jehovah."

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Remembering Thatcher's address to the Church of Scotland General Assembly on the subject of the Good Samaritan, "When I needed a neighbour, were you there?" should be a no-brainer! Perhaps Iain Duncan-Smith could bring a few of his friends down from Easterhouse to sing it.

I'll shut up now.

[ 08. April 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
quoted by Bishop's Finger
what liturgy/music would Shipmates deem suitable? Given that her background was Methodist, perhaps some rousing Wesley hymns would be appropriate?

the Croft/Purcell settings of The Sentences
Guide me, O thou great Redeemer
The God of love my Shepherd is (Psalm 23)
Parry's setting of Tennyson's Crossing the Bar as a motet
Sunset played by the band of HM Royal Marines
Praise, my soul, the King of Heaven
Elgar's Imperial March as the coffin leaves the cathedral

Yes, yes, yes - all very trad but probably acceptable to her family (who are, after all, the people whose wishes should be paramount) and leaves very little to arouse the ire of the nit-pickers in the press the next day.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Leaves very little to arouse the ire of the nit-pickers in the press the next day.

Sorry, I had to come in here ... thinking of the way she went for ++Runcie after the 1982 post-Falklands thanksgiving service, I think we most definitely want to include some nit-picker-ire-arousing hymns!

Being more serious, yes of course we should respect the wishes of her friends and family, as for any funeral. The problem is that on these "big" occasions issues like "protocol" and "national sentiment" can easily take precedence, or so I'd assume.

[ 08. April 2013, 16:55: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Baptist trainfan
The problem is that on these "big" occasions issues like "protocol" and "national sentiment" can easily take precedence, or so I'd assume.

I don't think so: otherwise, do you really think the powers-that-be would have chosen I vow to thee my country and the dreadful warbling by Elton John in 1997?

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

I just heard a clip of her on Desert Island Discs requesting the Largo from Dvorak's 'New World Symphony,' aka 'Going Home', as played by brass band. Entirely suitable for her funeral I would have thought. [Biased]

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

It's out of our hands, surely?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Tasteless, Angloid, but [Killing me]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Tasteless, Angloid, but

No. Chickens must surely come home to roost.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Some sort of funeral pyre on parliament square as befits the iron lady, nordic style?

Wagner - "The Twilight" surely a la Arthur in Excalibur?

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

... featuring the Grimethorpe Colliery Band with Tara Fitzgerald pretending to play the Flugelhorn, and of course a ballet solo from "Billy Elliott".

[ 08. April 2013, 22:38: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.

Thurible

They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune [Smile]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.

Thurible
They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune

But not the after-rugby lyrics, I hope.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... Yes, yes, yes - all very trad but probably acceptable to her family (who are, after all, the people whose wishes should be paramount)...

Not if it's being made a public occasion they aren't.

If she were having a funeral normal and appropriate to someone of her background and class like any other retired Prime Minister, then what her family wish for should prevail. This disturbing innovation though, means their wishes should defer to whoever is planning the occasion - whether the family like it or not.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

Will there be Prayers for the Departed? Will she be sent off to the 1662 service, and therefore receive no personal mention in the liturgy?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

'The Self-Preservation Society', 'The Family of Man' and 'She's only the Grocer's Daughter'.

[ 09. April 2013, 10:14: Message edited by: Chorister ]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Many hymns fit to O Tannenbaum. If this service is meant to unify the country, I feel strongly that it should be included.

Thurible
They could sing "The Red Flag" to that tune

Indeed. That would be insensitive, though, I'm sure. So, they should stick to singing a hymn to the same tune. I'm sure it would help those objecting to this monstrous waste of money feel slightly better.

Thurible

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

"The Red Flag" goes much better to "The White Cockade", anyway. So:

"When wilt thou save the people/ O God of mercy when?"
"O God of Earth and Altar"
"Judge Eternal, throned in Splendour"
Kipling's Recessional.

The last three are the kind of thing that could slip in under the radar of the kind of dim Tory who can't be arsed to think about what they are actually saying.

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

[Overused]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Helen Eva
Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.

...no, please. You and I both know it'll be the Sebastian Temple thing which will spark endless requests for weddings, funerals, etc. (I'm losing the will to live at the very thought...) [Eek!]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Albertus: Kipling's recessional???

I agree it went down well with the congregation at the funeral of Louis Mountbatten - but then it could be argued it was highly appropriate for the last Viceroy?

Perhaps something rather more contemplative - how about "Lord, it belongs not to my care" to St Botolph? Fine words by Baxter, pace a quibbler might say that, given the tense, it shouldn't be sung at a funeral - and the tune guaranteed to flummox the great-good-unchurched who'll be filling the nave of St Paul's.

** Better organ recessional would be the Triumphal March from Elgar's Caractacus d'you think?

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Have a look at Recessional. It's all about the futility of nationalistic pride. Alas, as Mrs T moved further from her roots into her sort of neo-Boudicca/ Gloriana persona, she did rather tend towards that.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I know recessional well - lots of requests for it at funerals in my part of the world, for some reason. Not just our cousins from across the pond who don't "do" irony.

Seriously, I think because it IS Kipling people assume it to be wildly patriotic in a gung-ho way...

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Exactly

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Helen Eva
Surely it ought to be the Prayer of St Francis (Make me a channel of your peace) given that she quoted it when she came to power. Quite good for irony too.
...no, please. You and I both know it'll be the Sebastian Temple thing which will spark endless requests for weddings, funerals, etc. (I'm losing the will to live at the very thought...)

L'organist, alas I think Helen Eva's right.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

I suggest

"Once to every man and nation"

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Albertus got in first with two that I would have suggested "O god of earth and altar", and "When wilt thou save the people", which my mother rejected for her own funeral - she wanted them, but thought that they would alienate the good people of the village who had so obviously rejoiced when Thatcher first got in.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I suggest

"Once to every man and nation"

Two serious theological errors and the nastiest imagery I've encountered in a hymn. No. Particularly not if it's televised.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

How about a bit of penitential purcell ?

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

Is everyone here just intent on throwing his own little not-so-funny-or-clever political point into this topic or what? Why is nobody interested in which liturgy will be used? This is a funeral. Diana's was politicized and an altogether ugly affair for it. This just needs to be thorougly Christian.

Let the Lord do the talking and save your student union politics for somewhere else.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I may have missed something up thread, but didn't the deceased herself express enthusiasm for a hymn "O valiant hearts" which I remember Ken Leech condemning as blasphemous as it identified with Christ those who had fallen in military combat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6q6Z_FonF0

(Click on that link and you can also hear "opera" singer Katherine Jenkins singing "I vow to thee my country", as chosen for Lady Diana Spencer for her wedding.)

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
This is a funeral. Diana's was politicized and an altogether ugly affair for it. This just needs to be thorougly Christian.

Politicised is my fear. Perhaps the crucial question is whether there will be a sermon from some clergyperson or a eulogy from some party hack. Hopefully the Palace will warn them off the latter or the Queen is going to very much regret turning up and getting tarred with a party political brush.

Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

The Queen attended Churchill's funeral, but has she been to those of any other PM? My recollection is that she does not, but rather sends a formal wreath.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The Queen attended Churchill's funeral, but has she been to those of any other PM? My recollection is that she does not, but rather sends a formal wreath.

You are correct - she has not attended the funeral of any of her other PMs, although she certainly went to a memorial service for Harold Macmillan. She usually sends a representative - Prince Charles went to Harold Wilson's.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

And I think searching back would show that the monarch did not attend any previous State or ceremonial funerals, going back into the 19th century like Gladstone or Wellington, except where the person was connected to the royal family, such as the Queen Mother obviously or Lord Mountbatten.

Churchill has been very much a one off and should have remained one IMHO.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
... Churchill has been very much a one off and should have remained one IMHO.

I agree. Lloyd George, who was also controversial and flawed, but a greater and more significant Prime Minister than Mrs Thatcher, was buried at Llanystumdwy. There was a large turnout, in spite of its being war time, but it was not a public event.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Is everyone here just intent on throwing his own little ... political point into this topic or what?

Yep.

Thurible

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.

Maybe she and the queen were friends.

I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.

Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Maybe [Mrs T] and the queen were friends.

I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.

Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".

The rumours are certainly the opposite of them being friends. If The Queen gives permission for a ceremonial funeral, though, it'd presumably be a bit odd for her not to attend.

As for protests, I would be very much surprised if there weren't some. Had it been a private funeral, I'd've disapproved heartily. As it is, if it's to be a public event, public protest would seem reasonable. I hope, as you imply, though, that they're not violent.

Thurible

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes, you're right. I would have disapprived of a protest. But as you say, they've chosen to make it a public event: they can bloody well atke the consequences. As long as the protest is non-violent, preferably silent, and dignified. I'd suggest something along the lines of 'Ceremonial funeral for Thatcher: Not In My Name' on banners and/ or T shirts

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
Maybe she and the queen were friends.

I understand from twitter the police are trying to see if there will be any protests so they can be properly managed.

Personally, I think if people were to protest they should do it the day before. If it is done on the day it should be a silent protest - a la women in black with signs restricted to "Not in my name".

A service to commemorate those who died at Hillsborough (which Thatcher helped to cover-up, of course) will happen as usual at Anfield on the 15th.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I see that next Wednesday evening I am, by coincidence, going to a lecture, given by a Belgian, on the need to define the EU's social objectives. I think that in its own quiet way that counts as a protest.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
Maybe she and the queen were friends.

Highly unlikely. I imagine Betty saying to Philip - I've got that shrill parvenu coming to tea this afternoon.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Serious question: does anybody know the postal address of the Thatcher Foundation, or who its chair is and how to contact him/her by post? The website gives no postal address.
Idea is that we get as many people as we can to print off an invoice asking the Foundation for our share of the cost of the state funding for the funeral (about 5p each, I suspect)and post them to them, unstamped of course. Publicise this as widely as we can and get as many people as we can to join in and publicise it in turn. I would be happy to knock up a template to share, if we can find an address to send them to.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Personally I think her attendance is ill-advised and can only be detrimental for her position and that of the monarchy. I also think there is a good chance of some pretty ugly scenes during the procession.
Maybe she and the queen were friends.
Highly unlikely. I imagine Betty saying to Philip - I've got that shrill parvenu coming to tea this afternoon.

There's something in that: I believe Thatcher once said something like "The trouble with the queen is that she's the kind of woman who'd vote SDP". I don't think they saw eye-to-eye socially. On the other hand, Thatcher was a member of the Order of Merit, which is the personal gift of the Queen, so there was clearly some respect there.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Is everyone here just intent on throwing his own little ... political point into this topic or what?
Yep.

Well indeed.

I know that this is a topic upon which very few British people will not have a strong opinion one way or another, but inasmuch as it is possible, we would appreciate it if we could keep to the topic of funeral organisation and liturgy itself.

Thanks.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Serious question: does anybody know the postal address of the Thatcher Foundation, or who its chair is and how to contact him/her by post? The website gives no postal address.

As you probably discovered by google, the writer of this letter (PDF) wrote c/o her Belgravia address.

Thurible

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

Maybe the organist or a brass band could play a few select bars from Billy Bragg numbers? Maybe in an Organists behaving Badly stylee?

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

What do you think the liturgy will be like besides the hymns and music? What order of service will be used (and what will that order be like), who will officiate, and what will the clergy wear? Will the religious service end when her casket leaves the cathedral and heads for the crematorium? How high or low will the funeral be?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I would think it will be fairly traditional - and the liturgical equivalent of black tie.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
, who will officiate, and what will the clergy wear?

Let's see. Lady Thatcher was MP for Finchley. Unfortunately that falls under the purview of the Bishop of Edmonton, so we can't really nominate our good friend the Bishop of Willesden [Devil]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I would think it will be fairly traditional - and the liturgical equivalent of black tie.

Yes - the Queen, various senior politicians and foreign dignitaries will be there.

I'd guess at the Series One service, with knobs on. Not sure who will officiate - perhaps +Richard Londin rather than ++Justin, although given that the Queen is going, maybe ++Justin has to do it.

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

I have always liked and defended monarchy because we could have a head of state who was above politics - an elected head is moderately disliked or even viscerally hated by a fair to large proportion of his/her people. The decision of her Majesty to attend the funeral of the woman who probably lost Scotland to the union has greatly modified my views.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
I have always liked and defended monarchy because we could have a head of state who was above politics - an elected head is moderately disliked or even viscerally hated by a fair to large proportion of his/her people. The decision of her Majesty to attend the funeral of the woman who probably lost Scotland to the union has greatly modified my views.

We don't know what the Queen actually thinks. It is of the nature of constitutional monarchy that if the government of the day advises her she should attend, she's bound by that advice.

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

In that case, do the damtories realise they are weakening the monarchy?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I shouldn't think they care. They probably think that all of them (maybe even Prince Philip) are closet lefties.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Maybe the organist or a brass band could play a few select bars from Billy Bragg numbers?

An extract from my suggested playlist:

A Change Is Gonna Come (Billy Bragg)
A Message to You Rudy (The Specials)
A Miner's Life (Billy Bragg)
A New England (Billy Bragg)
A Pair Of Brown Eyes (The Pogues)
Abernant 1984/5 (Mekons)
Alright Jack (Home Service)
Andy Is A Corporatist/Mindless Violence (Attila The Stockbroker)
Another Man's Cause (Levellers)
Battle Of The Beanfield (Levellers)
Between the Wars (Billy Bragg)
Close the Coalhouse Door (Alex Glasgow)
Colliers March (Chumbawamba)
Dark Streets Of London (The Pogues)
Days Like These (Billy Bragg)
Dirty Old Town (The Pogues)
Electric Avenue (Eddy Grant)
English Civil War (Levellers)
Every Time I Eat Vegetables (Attila The Stockbroker)
Family (New Model Army)
Family Life (New Model Army)
Gangsters (The Specials)
Ghost Town (The Specials)
Green And Grey (New Model Army)
Harry Stone - Hearts of Coal (John Tams)
I Shall Be Released (Tom Robinson Band)
Iron Hand (Dire Straits)
Ironmasters (The Men They Couldn't Hang)
Jerusalem (Billy Bragg)
Jerusalem (Mekons)
Jerusalem Revisited (Coope, Boyes & Simpson)
Joe Hill (Billy Bragg)
Johnny Miner (Mekons)
Julie (Levellers)
Last Weeks of the War (Mekons)
Like Soldiers Do (Billy Bragg)
Living On the Frontline (Eddy Grant)
London Calling (The Clash)
Love Will Tear Us Apart (Joy Division)
Maggie Went Green (Ewan Mac Coll)
Maggots 1 Maggie 0 (Attila The Stockbroker)
My Youngest Son Came Home Today (Billy Bragg)
Never Cross a Picket Line (Billy Bragg)
One In Ten (UB40)
Police & Thieves (Junior Murvin)
Redemption Song (Bob Marley)
Sheep Farming in the Falklands (Crass)
Shipbuilding (Robert Wyatt)
Sorrow/Babylon (Home Service)
Stupid Questions (New Model Army)
Swansea (Martyn Joseph)
The Blackleg Miner (Steeleye Span)
The Red Flag (Billy Bragg)
The Sell Out (Levellers)
The Trumpton Riots (Half Man Half Biscuit)
The World Turned Upside Down (Billy Bragg)
There Is Power In a Union (Billy Bragg)
Think Again (Billy Bragg)
This Land Is Your Land (Billy Bragg)
To Have and To Have Not (Billy Bragg)
Town Called Malice (The Jam)
War Baby (Martyn Joseph)
Warning (Levellers)
Which Side Are You On (Billy Bragg)
(We Don't Need This) Fascist Groove Thang (Heaven 17)

[ 12. April 2013, 19:29: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Elton John has been known to sing at state funerals. Maybe he could sing a selection from his musical 'Billy Elliot' including the miners' song 'Merry Christmas Maggie Thatcher'.

Apparently on the night of Thatcher's death, the cast let the audience vote on whether they sang the song (and the answer was a resounding yes).

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

I've just realised you could probably sing 'Ding dong the witch is dead' to the tune 'Rejoice! the Lord is king'.....Hmmmm!!

I wonder if this will be a Solemn Eucharist of Requiem?

You need something fiery - such as Verdi's Requiem although Mozart's is pretty exciting at times?

Black or purple vestments?

Will incense be used?
Answers on a postcard...... [Two face]

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Just so long as as they do Dies Irae.

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

Well, there is a translation in the standard Ancient & Modern

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
O dear God - they're not going to wheel on Elton John, are they.....??

Ian J.

Hmmmm...

How about:

quote:

Goodbye Mrs T…
Though we all knew you too well
You never had the grace to admit
You could be wrong about it all
England’s saviour they called you
But the huge cost was to us all
You set us all on a treadmill
Made us the market’s slaves all

And it seems to me you lived your life
Blowing at the candle in the wind
Never allowing any shelter
When the rain set in
I wish I’d never known you
But I was just a child
And you seemed to live on and on
And the myth is ever wild

AFZ

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Re the use of the dies irae -- i know many of my more old-school minded eccles cremates like it for funeral liturgies. As a child of the sixties [Smile]

i think it was appropriate that Vatican 2 discontinued that custom -- i don't want it at my funeral. However, i by no means think that it is without value and i note that on Wikipedia it says that "It remains as a hymn ad libitum in the Liturgy of the Hours during the last week before Advent, divided into three parts for the Office of Readings, Lauds and Vespers" (Liturgia Horarum IV, (Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2000), p. 489.). That's something i didn't know and i think is a quite appropriate use for it.

And now, going from the sublime to the ridiculous, in re

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
It's out of our hands, surely?

my favourite bit was

quote:
The service will also feature a solo by Cher who will appear at her own expense in order to convince her fans she is still alive following confusion among her US fans on Twitter upon seeing the hashtag #nowthatchersdead and reading it as Now that Cher’s dead.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Maybe the organist or a brass band could play a few select bars from Billy Bragg numbers?
An extract from my suggested playlist:

If you in that mood, you might consider also that song by the Wolfe Tones - Admiral William Brown... thusly...

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
I've just realised you could probably sing 'Ding dong the witch is dead' to the tune 'Rejoice! the Lord is king'.....Hmmmm!!

I wonder if this will be a Solemn Eucharist of Requiem?

You need something fiery - such as Verdi's Requiem although Mozart's is pretty exciting at times?

Black or purple vestments?

Will incense be used?
Answers on a postcard......

Granted, as an American Roman Catholic, I am truly an outsider, but I suspect that there will not be a Eucharist as part of the service, especially since the Queen will be in attendance, and she rarely receives Communion in public.

I guess the service will be high but not Anglo-Catholic. No idea if any reference will be made to her Methodist heritage other than perhaps in the choice of hymns. Candles but no incense. Is it a given that at least some of the clergy will wear copes? If not, and if tippets are worn instead of stoles, there would not be a need to worry about vestment colors.

quote:
I'd guess at the Series One service, with knobs on.

Does this mean you think the bishop(s) will wear mitres? What about croziers/pastoral staffs? Are there certain vestment (and accoutrement) protocols that are usually observed in St. Paul's?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
[QUOTE] On the other hand, Thatcher was a member of the Order of Merit, which is the personal gift of the Queen, so there was clearly some respect there.

Nah. Just a perk of the job.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
[QUOTE] Does this mean you think the bishop(s) will wear mitres? What about croziers/pastoral staffs? Are there certain vestment (and accoutrement) protocols that are usually observed in St. Paul's?

Did Thatcher actually profess any Christian beliefs - did she show any signs of her behaviour reflecting Christian values? (She certainly didn't keep to the values inherent in the words of St Francis).

I'll mostly be wearing trousers and a shirt on the day. My Mitre and pastoral staff are "in" for an MOT and polish.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Much as I think she missed quite a bit of the gospel, the answer to that is clearly "yes" she did. By upbringing she was Methodist and kept that allegiance at least until she was married. I do not know when she formally moved to Anglicanism. She gave a communion rail to the Methodist church where she was married.

Jengie

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
What do you think the liturgy will be like besides the hymns and music?

We'll just have to wait and see. I believe we have a Mystery Worshipper lined up to memorialize the event in any case.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

More seriously, I'm not sure what hymns I would like to see. 'Guide me oh thou great Redeemer' is surely too strongly associated with mining communities. 'Dear Lord and Father of mankind' hardly seems suitable.

I have a bad feeling that 'I vow to thee, my country' might be making an appearance...

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

The BBC reports that:

quote:
It is understood that hymns will include I Vow to Thee My Country, To be a Pilgrim and Love Divine, All Loves Excelling.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
What do you think the liturgy will be like besides the hymns and music?
We'll just have to wait and see. I believe we have a Mystery Worshipper lined up to memorialize the event in any case.

I suspect only open to invited guests.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

It is ticket only - but don't underestimate the links of SoF ...

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

'Make me a channel of your peace'?

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

I have a bad feeling that 'I vow to thee, my country' might be making an appearance...

According to this morning's news, that's 10 points for dj_ordinaire.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I believe we have a Mystery Worshipper lined up to memorialize the event in any case.
I suspect only open to invited guests.

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is ticket only - but don't underestimate the links of SoF ...

The Ship may not be in the front lines of journalism, but back pews were made for us.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Ken ... that list ... [Overused]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I bet they'll have 'I vow to thee my country'

I won that bet.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I bet they'll have 'I vow to thee my country'
I won that bet.

I've long thought, "And there's another country, I've heard of long ago", one of the saddest lines in any hymn.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

It does just occur to me: if she gets a state funeral, where will she get a funeral that actually addresses her as a person, rather than as a mythical figure...

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Perhaps Julia Gillard should advise the Queen not to attend herself but rather to send one of the young Yorks as her representative.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

The Order of Service is now available.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Many questions, for starters:

How exactly is this different from a state funeral ?
WTF is a mourning sword, and why would you need a sword in a church service anyway ?
Since when do you lay secular honours on an altar ?
If the service is being taken by the Bishop of London, why the surfeit of archbishops ?

[ 14. April 2013, 09:20: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

What a pity the modernised version of To be a Pilgrim is being sung. Neil Kinnock would make a good hobgoblin, and there are few better representations around of foul fiends than Scargill. Between them, and with a bit of help from Michael Foot, they ensured the continued government by Mrs Thatcher.

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Many questions, for starters:
How exactly is this different from a state funeral ?
WTF is a mourning sword, and why would you need a sword in a church service anyway ?
Since when do you lay secular honours on an altar ?
If the service is being taken by the Bishop of London, why the surfeit of archbishops ?

The guardian post linked on the other thread goves some differences.
A ceremonial funeral has 2 guns/minute less but can afford horses.
It also doesn't need a vote.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I believe we have a Mystery Worshipper lined up to memorialize the event in any case.
I suspect only open to invited guests.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is ticket only - but don't underestimate the links of SoF ...
The Ship may not be in the front lines of journalism, but back pews were made for us.

I have visions of it being akin to conclave MWing in Rome all over again!

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Many questions, for starters:
How exactly is this different from a state funeral ?
WTF is a mourning sword, and why would you need a sword in a church service anyway ?
Since when do you lay secular honours on an altar ?
If the service is being taken by the Bishop of London, why the surfeit of archbishops ?

I think that the sword is a symbol of the City of London's authority here, but this is only on a vague memory of having seen this somewhere. The mourning bit is the black cord or lacquer used on swords worn by those in mourning-- I suppose it is the swordsman's version of black tie. According to Pepys and other folk, gentlemen would often wear their swords while attending services. I like to think that it is to keep thurifers and clergy in line, but that's the romantic in me.

I have seen decorations both laid on the coffin (more common), or on a stand in front of the coffin, but twice I have seen them on their cushion on the altar (once at the Polish RC parish here, and another time at an Anglican church in BC, both for airmen of the last war). I think that placing them on the coffin be preferred to the altar-- perhaps the symbolism is that of an offering?

As far as archbishops go, surely they can attend any service they please? In this case, Lady Thatcher) was an officer of state and, as metropolitans in an established church, this is natural. The mischievous might say that the presence of the successor of S Paulinus is to ensure that she is no longer in a position to wreak havoc on the northern province.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I have visions of it being akin to conclave MWing in Rome all over again!

No, April Fools is over and past.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

Hmm.

Don't know about that. Don't know at all. A shame about the quote from Little Gidding, I like that! Not sure what Vaughan Williams, Percy Dearmer and various other noted socialists would think of their work being used in such a manner either.

I'm also intrigued to know what a 'Ceremoniarius', and how one acquires such a creature. It sounds like it might be useful around the home.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What a pity the modernised version of To be a Pilgrim is being sung. Neil Kinnock would make a good hobgoblin, and there are few better representations around of foul fiends than Scargill. Between them, and with a bit of help from Michael Foot, they ensured the continued government by Mrs Thatcher.

I'd have thought some shippies, who have a mystifying attachment to him, would prefer that it's the Dearmer mangled version. It's probably more appropriate as that was the one usually found in school hymn books 80 years ago.

Posted by Japes (# 5358) on :

It's just a posh name for Master of Ceremonies.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

The Dean's bidding is bollocks: I'd be very surprised if she even recognised the concept of the common good. And later on - 'may you find rest with Lazarus the poor man'- no doubt her reply to that would have been that if Lazarus had pulled his socks up, rested a bit less, and worked a bit more, he wouldn't have been a poor man.

Posted by Wild Organist (# 12631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
'may you find rest with Lazarus the poor man'- no doubt her reply to that would have been that if Lazarus had pulled his socks up, rested a bit less, and worked a bit more, he wouldn't have been a poor man.

Thank you... A much needed laugh. [Snigger]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

My guess is that the Dearmer bowdlerization of Bunyan is being used because the bods at St Paul's prefer the New English Hymnal. The original's in Hymns Ancient and Modern, and I'd bet a case of champagne that it is that that's the one Mrs T sang in school and requested at her funeral.

Posted by Alex Cockell (# 7487) on :

With the use of He Who Would Valiant Be in the running order, I can't help but think of scenes in the John Cleese film "Clockwise"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMNMLuofw80

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
My guess is that the Dearmer bowdlerization of Bunyan is being used because the bods at St Paul's prefer the New English Hymnal. The original's in Hymns Ancient and Modern, and I'd bet a case of champagne that it is that that's the one Mrs T sang in school and requested at her funeral.

An interesting question. The blessèd Percy's mutilation of Bunyan's words appears in Songs of Praise (publ. 1925), though it may of course be older than that. SoP was a popular hymnbook for schools (spouse and self both used it in the 50s/60s), but how quickly and widely was it taken up? I still have my mother's (Clifton High School, Bristol 1928 - 1935) copy of SoP. It could conceivably therefore have been used by the school in Grantham at which HMR was a pupil. In the Methodist Church, however, she would have sung echt Bunyan, as in the then new Methodist Hymnbook of 1933.

For the hymn 'Love Divine' neither MHB nor SoP give the tune Blaenwern - nor Hyfrydol, nor the eponymous Stainer tune (as in A&M), for that matter. THE MHB has another Love Divine by Zundel (which appears elsewhere as Beecher) or Webbe's Bithynia (aka Corinth aka Tantum ergo aka Alleluia dulce carmen), while SoP has Moriah (trad. Welsh) or Exile (trad. English arr. Martin Shaw). So the tune at the funeral is highly unlikely to be the one she sang in school or in the family chapel.

Someone further up suggested that she may have encountered Anglicanism at Oxford, in college chapel. At Oxford, maybe, but Somerville was specifically founded as a non-denominational college, in reaction to the Anglican LMH. The chapel, therefore, is not Anglican - it has a Greek inscription over the doorway, taken from Isaiah 56.7 - 'A house of prayer for all peoples'.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Very interesting.
On the question of her move from Methodism to Anglicanism, I'd always assumed that it was just part of her ascent of the social scale. She married in a Methodist church -possibly because she still saw herself as a Methodist, possibly out of respect for her family tradition, but also possibly- I don't know what the rules were then- because the Methodists may have been more accommodating about remarrying a divorcee, which Denis was. I think that John Campbell's biography says that that was pretty much her last 'Methodist' act, though- but I can't remember for sure and I don't have a copy to check.

Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Many questions, for starters:
How exactly is this different from a state funeral ?
WTF is a mourning sword, and why would you need a sword in a church service anyway ?
Since when do you lay secular honours on an altar ?
If the service is being taken by the Bishop of London, why the surfeit of archbishops ?
<snip>

I have seen decorations both laid on the coffin (more common), or on a stand in front of the coffin, but twice I have seen them on their cushion on the altar (once at the Polish RC parish here, and another time at an Anglican church in BC, both for airmen of the last war). I think that placing them on the coffin be preferred to the altar-- perhaps the symbolism is that of an offering?

<snip>

I think that membership of orders lapses at death, and the insignia officially belong to the sovereign. That makes it inappropriate for them be placed on the coffin. On the altar, as an act of returning them or laying them up, kind of fits, particularly with the C of E being the state church.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Very interesting.
On the question of her move from Methodism to Anglicanism, I'd always assumed that it was just part of her ascent of the social scale. She married in a Methodist church -possibly because she still saw herself as a Methodist, possibly out of respect for her family tradition, but also possibly- I don't know what the rules were then- because the Methodists may have been more accommodating about remarrying a divorcee, which Denis was. I think that John Campbell's biography says that that was pretty much her last 'Methodist' act, though- but I can't remember for sure and I don't have a copy to check.

I haven't read the Thatcher biographies (a spiritual biography of Mrs T would be an interesting read) but my sense of it is that she attended CofE services much as American presidents attend services at the National Cathedral. The line between Methodism and Anglicanism isn't as clear-cut as the line between, shall we say, the CofE and the Orthodox churches. Or the Baptists for that matter.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I have visions of it being akin to conclave MWing in Rome all over again!
No, April Fools is over and past.

Is that when it was!?

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

The Cathedral ringers will be ringing half-muffled Stedman cinques following the funeral service.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
[I haven't read the Thatcher biographies (a spiritual biography of Mrs T would be an interesting read) but my sense of it is that she attended CofE services much as American presidents attend services at the National Cathedral. The line between Methodism and Anglicanism isn't as clear-cut as the line between, shall we say, the CofE and the Orthodox churches. Or the Baptists for that matter.

Oh, certainly. Unless, perhaps- and I don't say that this was the case, only that it may be- you are reinventing yourself socially and see the CofE as part of your climb out of the provincial lower middle classes.

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

John F. Kennedy's funeral is a huge part of my childhood memory. We were let out of school and everything here in the US stopped for his funeral.

My parents did not trust him because of his religion (a prejudice I don't have), yet I don't remember them saying anything negative after his death.

I have been thoroughly disgusted by some of the posts here by professed Christians (or perhaps I stumbled in on the Westboro Baptist Church klan blog). Isn't there room in Hell (the blog, that is) for the rude aspects of this discussion? (I used to admire British society for the pursuit of good manners and civility.)

The woman is DEAD, have enough decency to let it go -- God will be her (and your) judge.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Absolutely, Cantus Firmus (and welcome to the Ship, by the way.) But I think Americans (perhaps Shipmates less than most) don't understand the great anger there is in the UK – especially the non-English parts, and the north of England - at the great damage and division that she caused. That's no reason for disrespecting her humanity or refusing to pray for her soul, and no reason for derailing this thread (apologies if that's what I'm doing): but it explains the seemingly over-the-top reactions on this side of the pond.

And it is relevant to this thread that the whole idea of a (quasi-)state funeral for someone who was neither head of state nor a unifying figure is an unhealthy precedent.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

In comparison with Kennedy, Mrs. T. was not the serving Prime Minister at the time of her death, nor was she assassinated while in office.

Nor - unlike the US President - is our Prime Minister the Head of State. (I suspect only the most radical Anti-Monarchists and Republicans would begrudge the Queen a state funeral).

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The Cathedral ringers will be ringing half-muffled Stedman cinques following the funeral service.

Some sort of half-muffled peal (whatever that is) is to be rung at St Magnus the Martyr on the day too. My feelings on this are entirely neutral. Honest, guv.

Thurible

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

The mist of time has obscured the fact that Kennedy was barely elected and may not have won reelection. Being a Roman Catholic was hugely divisive among many Americans.

Thatcher has not been in office in many decades, she died an old woman. She was a ground breaking PM (first female, etc), and did so with great gusto. Disagree with her policies, but at least she stuck to her guns unlike the current politicians (on both sides of the pond) that don't have convictions until the latest polling data is released.

As much as some may violently disagree with her policies, it seems to be a perpetual addiction to anger in general.

Mrs. T was a PM, a landmark PM (dislike or not) of the 20th century. I view the (non) state funeral as one for the respect of the office. The same was true for the Kennedy funeral, it was primarily a funeral for the President of the United States and at least we came together without acting like savages.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

I'm not aware that on this thread there has been any particular 'savagery', my earlier nudge to avoid tangents notwithstanding. I think there are valid concerns over whether the proposed service is appropriate, some of which have been articulated by the late Baroness Thatcher's political supporters. One oddity which has not received enough attention, in my opinion, is the fact that a civilian will be receiving so many military honours. I cannot think of any precedent for this at all, from any walk of life.

(In a quasi-Hostly capacity, I might add that we attempt to encourage an atmosphere in Ecclesiantics which is welcoming to every point of view, but that this does no preclude robust discussion over our differences!).

Oh, and you can't necessarily know that people making any particular comment are 'professed Christians' either... it is certainly not a requirement for membership and a significant minority of Shipmates would not claim to be Christians.

Welcome to the Ship, by the way!

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
One oddity which has not received enough attention, in my opinion, is the fact that a civilian will be receiving so many military honours. I cannot think of any precedent for this at all, from any walk of life.

Winston Churchill served in the army, but he didn't have military honours at his funeral because he rode a cavalry charge in the Battle of Omdurman - he had those honours because he was Prime Minister in the War - a civilian post.

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

Seems to me that the following would be more suitable in Hell (yes the blog), rather than Ecclesiantics.

quote:
The Dean's bidding is bollocks: I'd be very surprised if she even recognised the concept of the common good. And later on - 'may you find rest with Lazarus the poor man'- no doubt her reply to that would have been that if Lazarus had pulled his socks up, rested a bit less, and worked a bit more, he wouldn't have been a poor man.

quote:
Goodbye Mrs T…
Though we all knew you too well
You never had the grace to admit
You could be wrong about it all
England’s saviour they called you
But the huge cost was to us all
You set us all on a treadmill
Made us the market’s slaves all

And it seems to me you lived your life
Blowing at the candle in the wind
Never allowing any shelter
When the rain set in
I wish I’d never known you
But I was just a child
And you seemed to live on and on
And the myth is ever wild

quote:
Did Thatcher actually profess any Christian beliefs - did she show any signs of her behaviour reflecting Christian values? (She certainly didn't keep to the values inherent in the words of St Francis).

quote:
On the question of her move from Methodism to Anglicanism, I'd always assumed that it was just part of her ascent of the social scale.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

The first two of the above are directly relevant to the thread and Ecclesiantics: one is a comment on the actual service and the other is a (satirical) suggestion of possible content.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
One oddity which has not received enough attention, in my opinion, is the fact that a civilian will be receiving so many military honours. I cannot think of any precedent for this at all, from any walk of life.
Winston Churchill served in the army, but he didn't have military honours at his funeral because he rode a cavalry charge in the Battle of Omdurman - he had those honours because he was Prime Minister in the War - a civilian post.

Having worked a couple of state funerals in Canada (MW reports can be found for the lurker) from my former RL, I have seen military honours go to officers of state. In Canada, PMs, justices, and MPs (such as Jack Layton) usually get RCMP, but Governors General get GG Foot Guards. Ministers of the Crown are mixed, some getting Mounties, and others local regiments-- those funerals are however, lower-ranking official ones, and not state or ceremonial. Provincial and municipal officers get local police. A friend of mine, who died on duty as a Canadian public servant in Haiti, got the Black Watch.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cantus Firmus:
Mrs. T was a PM, a landmark PM (dislike or not) of the 20th century. I view the (non) state funeral as one for the respect of the office. The same was true for the Kennedy funeral, it was primarily a funeral for the President of the United States and at least we came together without acting like savages.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, I was merely pointing out that the British office of PM is not as "high" as that of a US President and so (in my view) does not merit the ceremonial that she's getting, especially as a time of national austerity.

The fact that I couldn't stand the woman is irrelevant in this context.

[ 15. April 2013, 18:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't disagree with anything you've said, I was merely pointing out that the British office of PM is not as "high" as that of a US President and so (in my view) does not merit the ceremonial that she's getting, especially as a time of national austerity. The fact that I couldn't stand the woman is irrelevant in this context.

I agree with this, as the U.S. president is both a head of state and head of government; a prime minister is only the latter.

But I'd say Mrs Thatcher's public funeral should be in line with what's been done for previous prime ministers.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The first two of the above are directly relevant to the thread and Ecclesiantics: one is a comment on the actual service and the other is a (satirical) suggestion of possible content.

The last- about Mrs T's adoption of Anglicansim as she ascended the social scale- is a tangent, but an observation/ speculation and certainly not Hellish. Perhaps Cantus Firmus, as an American, is not altogether familiar with the class connotations of different denominations in British Christianity.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I don't disagree with anything you've said, I was merely pointing out that the British office of PM is not as "high" as that of a US President and so (in my view) does not merit the ceremonial that she's getting, especially as a time of national austerity. The fact that I couldn't stand the woman is irrelevant in this context.
I agree with this, as the U.S. president is both a head of state and head of government; a prime minister is only the latter.

But I'd say Mrs Thatcher's public funeral should be in line with what's been done for previous prime ministers.

Which is to say, following C20 practice with the exception of Churchill (who was an exception to almost everything), private funeral with public 'official' memorial service/ interment of ashes. Perfectly dignified and entirely fitting.

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

quote:
The last- about Mrs T's adoption of Anglicansim as she ascended the social scale- is a tangent, but an observation/ speculation and certainly not Hellish. Perhaps Cantus Firmus, as an American, is not altogether familiar with the class connotations of different denominations in British Christianity.

Indeed I do understand the class issue in regards to Anglicanism vs Methodism. I read this as a back-handed slap on Mrs. T's religious conviction ( social climber).

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

quote:
I'm not aware that on this thread there has been any particular 'savagery'

And I did choose the word savage carefully.

Savages continue fight long lost (or won) wars, celebrate the death of their enemies, protest (riot) at funerals, desecrate corpses...

A civilized society knows when a battle is over.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Who said the battle was over?

Ian J.

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

quote:
Who said the battle was over?

On one hand you say the PM is not as powerful as a US President, on the other hand you are battling a dead woman who has been out of power for 23 years!

If you want a battle, fight the living, not the dead.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

This thread is for the discussion of Baroness Thatcher's funeral. General discussion of her life, the office of Prime Minister etc. belongs on the threads in Purgatory.

There has also been some junior hosting going on. Please refrain from that.

seasick, Eccles host

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

It was said that the office of PM is not as "high" as that of US President, not that it is not as powerful. They are totally different measurements and reflect the difference between a head of state and a head of government (as has already been pointed out to you). The PM having control of both the legislature and the executive probably wields more power within the UK than the President does within the US. That is power to do good and power to do harm.

[Apologies. Was typing this when the hostly comment went up.]

[ 15. April 2013, 22:12: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cantus Firmus:

quote:
Who said the battle was over?
On one hand you say the PM is not as powerful as a US President, on the other hand you are battling a dead woman who has been out of power for 23 years!

If you want a battle, fight the living, not the dead.

Cantus Firmus, forgive my asking, but why are you so bothered about how a foreign country treats the death of one of it's former politicians? I can't imagine any situation under which I would have any view about how the US government dealt with the death of one of its retired politicians, or regard it as any of my business.

As it happens, I do not feel as strongly as many shipmates on the subject, and don't think she was either as great or as evil as many people still do. However, I don't think she should be accorded a public funeral. It's a bad precedent. It will be difficult to resist the demand in future that they all get one.

As I've already said, Lloyd George didn't have one. He was much more significant both as a politician and as a war leader.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

All Canadian PMs get state funerals, unless they or their families really really don't want them. Having worked state funerals for my pay, I found the seriousness with which they were planned and carried out admirable (down to the soldiers practising for hours with a stone-filled coffin, while musicians rehearsed, and our finance clerks, drafted for the event, paced out the measures). It was a sign of our respect for the responsibility of the office and the sacrifices involved in entering public life. As an example, that I spit on the ground every time Stephen Harper's name is mentioned does not detract from my recognition of his hard (if incompetent and misdirected) work and his focus (albeit damaging) on his responsibilities, nor on the strain on his personal life. Maybe more people should get official funerals-- I have a bomb disposal friend whose work should be publicly recognized when she goes (hopefully from old age and not in a cloud of chemical fire), but that is another thread.

Heaven knows that I am no fan of some of our leaders (my opinions available for a dram), but they were leaders, and they personify a period of develoment in a society's life. I found the many contradictions of Lady T's funeral service fascinating (Lazarus!!)-- much of the character of the event will depend on the Bishop of London's address. I'll likely catch the live stream.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Rules here about State Funerals are even broader that in Canada. The only reason that they are not offered to council dogcatchers is that we don't have that office. But given that standard procedure in the UK is that not even PMs have had them in the past (except Churchill), it is unfortunate that such a ceremonial event is being accorded to Lady Thatcher.

It is also unfortunate that our Queen is attending. The Federal Govt has made very appropriate arrangements for a former PM to attend as the Aust representative; the fact that John Howard is only the second PM to have not only lost a general election but also lost his own seat makes his appointment even more appropriate.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by thurible
Some sort of half-muffled peal (whatever that is)...

Bell-ringing: a thick pad is bound around half of each bell's clapper so that every second strike sounds "muffled" or like an echo.

In some towers they leave the Tenor unmuffled so that the difference is highlighted.

Half-muffling is common - the old "passing" bells were always half-muffled - to mark a death if bells are rung.

By tradition bells are only fully muffled to mark the death of a sovereign - I suppose some towers might if an ABofC died in office, but that would be the only other occasion I can think of.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

It is reported today that the Speaker's Chaplain will keep vigil with the coffin tonight in St Mary Undercroft. Revd Rose Hudson-Wilkin. Given Revd Rose's experience of inner-city ministry post-Thatcher, I find this deeply moving.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Yes it is. But part of me is supposing that there's got to be someone there with a crucifix and holy water, just in case she decides to get up again...

[ 16. April 2013, 12:54: Message edited by: Albertus ]

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

quote:
Yes it is. But part of me is supposing that there's got to be someone there with a crucifix and holy water, just in case she decides to get up again...

Here we go again!

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
The Cathedral ringers will be ringing half-muffled Stedman cinques following the funeral service.
Some sort of half-muffled peal (whatever that is) is to be rung at St Magnus the Martyr on the day too. My feelings on this are entirely neutral. Honest, guv.

Thurible

The service paper does not say that it is a peal being rung. Please be aware that a peal entails ringing 3-1/2 to 4 hours non-stop; 5,000 or more changes and no change to be repeated. The service paper does not say how long the ringing will last.

If St. Magnus the Martyr are ringing as well (another ring of 12 bells), then that makes sense.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Yes it is. But part of me is supposing that there's got to be someone there with a crucifix and holy water, just in case she decides to get up again...

I snorted coffee. At work.

Thurible

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :

She'll probably grab the holy water, say ' gi' us a drink' and scoff the lot..... [Two face]

Think they need a stake
Just in case......

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cantus Firmus:

quote:
Yes it is. But part of me is supposing that there's got to be someone there with a crucifix and holy water, just in case she decides to get up again...
Here we go again!

Yeah. Humour gets everywhere. What a bummer.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
She'll probably grab the holy water, say ' gi' us a drink' and scoff the lot.....
Think they need a stake
Just in case......

She'd take 1d6 damage per phial - or do I recall it's doubled if ingested rather than merely used as a missile weapon?

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Is there any way to watch the service in television in the US? I will be working during it and won't be able to watch it online. I was hoping to record it on my DVR.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
She gave a communion rail to the Methodist church where she was married.

And people say she didn't help people up from their feet.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Stonespring:

I think you'll find that SKY NEWS will be broadcasting it live.

The BBC are also likely to have it, either on the NEWS channel or their PARLIAMENT channel. [Smile]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Albertus

The Dean's bidding is bollocks: I'd be very surprised if she even recognised the concept of the common good. And later on - 'may you find rest with Lazarus the poor man'- no doubt her reply to that would have been that if Lazarus had pulled his socks up, rested a bit less, and worked a bit more, he wouldn't have been a poor man.

The Dean's bidding may be a hotchpotch but not all bollocks.

As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.

Other questions from other posters:

The words of the Bunyan hymn are those as altered by Percy Dearmer.

The tune for Love Divine is Blaenwern.

The ringers at St Paul's will be ringing Stedman cinques for a specific reason - they are short, lasting about 30 minutes.

The service generally looks remarkably like BCP with additions of music and a few extra prayers.

To be frank, I've been faced with far worse in my own parish (see thread on readings at weddings and funerals).

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

quote:
Is there any way to watch the service in television in the US?

C-SPAN2 starting at 4:15am (ET)

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

The full Order of Service can be found here.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.

Haven't you rather missed the point, L'organist? This text may well be fine as liturgy but in the context of the funeral of one who demonised the poor and would feel decidedly uncomfortable in the company of Lazarus, it's either a delicious jibe or an inappropriate sentiment.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

As someone remarked on Twitter, she'd tell Lazarus to pull up his socks, stop winging and go earn his own living!

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.

Haven't you rather missed the point, L'organist? This text may well be fine as liturgy but in the context of the funeral of one who demonised the poor and would feel decidedly uncomfortable in the company of Lazarus, it's either a delicious jibe or an inappropriate sentiment.

Unless it's talking about the poverty that some on the right prefer to focus on: Poverty of the spirit.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
As someone remarked on Twitter, she'd tell Lazarus to pull up his socks, stop winging and go earn his own living!

Oh dear, and I thought I was being original- still, great minds and all that...

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

As for the rest: "May you find rest with Lazarus the poor man" is a reasonable(ish) translation of part of the In paradisum "et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem" which the Choir will be singing AT THE END to the setting by Faure.

Haven't you rather missed the point, L'organist? This text may well be fine as liturgy but in the context of the funeral of one who demonised the poor and would feel decidedly uncomfortable in the company of Lazarus, it's either a delicious jibe or an inappropriate sentiment.
Unless it's talking about the poverty that some on the right prefer to focus on: Poverty of the spirit.

Possibly. But the gist of Jesus's story about Dives and Lazarus was the punishment of the rich man because he spurned the poor man at his gate. Not because someone was feeling a little 'poor in spirit'.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The full Order of Service can be found here.

And this also has comments appended by her biographer. Even if his 'entirely English' list of composers includes the Irishman Stanford.

His analysis of I vow to Thee my country elicited feelings that would be more appropriate for Hell, however.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

One Irishman, and three Englishmen with Welsh names.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Funeral was admirably carried out.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Yes.
One eye on the funeral and one on the live web-cast of the NZ Parliament passing the Equal Marriage Bill... historic day all round.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Funeral was admirably carried out.

A reminder of what the public sector (armed forces, CofE) can do, eh?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Anselmina
Funeral was admirably carried out.

... but the commentary by David Dimbleby on the BBC was dreadful and littered with mistakes:

"under Nelson's Column" - really???

"2 Archbishops very much unrobed" - no, they weren't naked but in cassocks only, so presumably Dimbers thinks cassocks aren't robes?

card on flowers read "Always in our Hearts" - which Dimblepuppy read as "..in our minds" ???

"2 thrones where she'll (The Queen) be sitting" - (i) I think he meant chairs, (ii) is he implying the monarch is so vast she needs more than 1?

"In paradisum deducant Angeli" - as in Angela Merkel?

(over pictures of grandchildren Amanda and Michael Thatcher) "and there the two granddaughters" !!!

(as we see the hearse turning left to go along Cheapside) "and the hearse leaves by the same route down Ludgate Hill"

"heading for the Royal Hospital and Chelsea" - in fact it was going to Mortlake Crematorium

There were many, many more. Very depressing but wholly predictable [Ultra confused]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

"2 Archbishops very much unrobed" - no, they weren't naked but in cassocks only, so presumably Dimbers thinks cassocks aren't robes?

In which case, he's entirely right.

Thurible

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

... maybe, Thurible, but only by accident.

Posted by Utrecht Catholic (# 14285) on :

It was a lovely service,the music was sublime,the hymns,well chosen were sung with great gusto.
However I missed at the end of service the sprinkling of the coffin with holy/baptismal water.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

He said they were entirely unrobed, when they weren't wearing robes, and it was by accident?

Thurible

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

Yes SKY was much better and uninterrupted
Btw, what was ++Justin's cope with the scarlet facings all about?

[ 17. April 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Galilit ]

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

Very nice. Did I catch an RC Archbishop reading a prayer from the BCP?

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

You did: it was Grace Kelly, Archbishop Emeritus of Liverpool. Not sure if he as representing the Catholic Church of Old Labour [Biased]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I agree that Dimbleby was a bit clueless sounding at times. It could've been worse. And well done to Bishop Chartres for what must've been a tough preaching gig.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
You did: it was Grace Kelly, Archbishop Emeritus of Liverpool. Not sure if he as representing the Catholic Church of Old Labour

What you mean to say is His Grace Patrick Kelly who recently retired as Archbishop of Liverpool.

The late Princess Grace Kelly was Prince Rainier's consort in Monaco - you know!

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

I'm surprised at Fr Dcn Trisagion for making such a mistake.

[Biased]

Thurible

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :

The commentary on the service by her biographer is theologically dire. To take John 14 and turn it into a political speech is worse than anything Mrs T ever said herself - it makes her into the Messiah.

Barmen Declaration anyone?

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The commentary on the service by her biographer is theologically dire. To take John 14 and turn it into a political speech is worse than anything Mrs T ever said herself - it makes her into the Messiah.

Barmen Declaration anyone?

State funerals are always going to have something of the Erastian about them, but that is particularly bad.

Posted by Trisagion (# 5235) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I'm surprised at Fr Dcn Trisagion for making such a mistake.

Thurible

Oh yes! Silly me.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

Further to the discussion of the funeral bell ringing upthread, details of the performances are being linked from here.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions". Of course it's an oft-used funeral reading - but did anyone else think of sold-off Council houses, even momentarily?

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

Just been reading the report of the funeral in The Age, which used to be a quality broadsheet, but in recent years has turned itself into an Antipodean version of The Guardian.

Its Europe correspondent described the readings as coming from the "St James Bible".

Posted by Cantus Firmus (# 17646) on :

Video of Thatcher Funeral here

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Just been reading the report of the funeral in The Age, which used to be a quality broadsheet, but in recent years has turned itself into an Antipodean version of The Guardian.

Its Europe correspondent described the readings as coming from the "St James Bible".

An error committed more than once over the years by the Sydney Morning Herald's religious correspondent. It makes you wonder a bit, doesn't it.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Yes, but it's hardly surprising really. Take a step back into a hazy half-recollected knowledge of Christianity, and which seems more likely - that a Bible translation would be named for a saint contemporaneous with Jesus, or some random King of England and Scotland?

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions".

Why? Are you unfamiliar with the Authorised Version (sometimes called the "King James'" of the Bible? It was absolutely standard until at least the 1960s and is still in daily use in those places where they consider it more appropriate/less jarring for use in BCP liturgies than a more modern translation.

quote:
Of course it's an oft-used funeral reading ...

Yes, it is a passage used at many funerals. For myself, I prefer Revelation 21:1-7 - from the Authorised Version, of course.

quote:
... - but did anyone else think of sold-off Council houses, even momentarily?

No. Why would a reading about Christ going on to the hereafter before his discples make me think of social housing? [Confused]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Your faux-naivete strikes me as tongue in cheek. Please confirm that it is!

[Smile]

Thurible

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I've been accused of innocence or naivety but infrequently... [Devil]

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

Phew!

Thurible

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I thought the music was excellent, as was Bishop Chartres sermon.

Nice to see black copes - the ones worn by the bishop and dean look very much like the set from St. Paul's Debtford, which gets used a lot for Afro-carribean funerals.

I wonder if St. Paul's cathedral borrowed them.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I bet they'll have 'I vow to thee my country'
I won that bet.
I've long thought, "And there's another country, I've heard of long ago", one of the saddest lines in any hymn.

I always thought that 'long ago' referred to life before birth - as in the Wordsworth poem that was quoted in the service booklet:

quote:
Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I thought that the reading from Ephesians was most apt, with its talk of fighting "powers and principalities".

Walter Wink had a lot to say about that.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Leo

I wonder if St Paul's borrowed them?

No.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Meaning what? That they stole them, or that they have their own set?

[Roll Eyes]

Ian J.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Baptist Trainfan
On a different point - I was intrigued by the reference in David Cameron's reading to the "many mansions".
Why? Are you unfamiliar with the Authorised Version (sometimes called the "King James'" of the Bible?

L'organist: that's the second time in this thread that you have missed the point of the post. I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Just so.

I repeat - [Roll Eyes]

Ian J.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I thought that the reading from Ephesians was most apt, with its talk of fighting "powers and principalities".

Walter Wink had a lot to say about that.

Exactly.

In opposing communism in general and the Soviet Union in particular, she was opposing one of the twentieth century's worst examples of that systemic dehumanisation about which he had so much to say.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Angloid
I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.

I too have a working knowledge of the AV version.

On the subject of housing, you are entitled to that opinion but some of us may not share it.

quote:
posted by Bishop's Finger

I was informed by a St Paul's regular that the copes were from a set (perhaps sets?) that the Cathedral owns; of course, they could be wrong?

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.

Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Angloid
I'm sure Baptist Trainfan, and the rest of us, are perfectly familiar with the AV version of that passage. It's just that the person being commemorated did all in her power to reduce the availability of poky flats, let alone mansions, to the people who need them.
I too have a working knowledge of the AV version.

On the subject of housing, you are entitled to that opinion but some of us may not share it.

If you are lucky enough to afford your own house maybe not. If I'm wrong, and you are in fact living in a damp flat on a sink estate because all the decent houses have been sold off, my apologies.

There are arguments in favour of council house tenants being able to buy their own houses. But none that I can see to support Thatcher's ban on councils using the money to build new ones.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".

I'm not suggesting Thatcher's crimes were of the same magnitude. Though cuddling up to dictators like Pinochet while opposing Soviet tyranny seems like double standards. Not to mention the hypocrisy of exalting individualism while treating whole groups of people as faceless masses or 'the enemy within'.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Angloid
If you are lucky enough to afford your own house maybe not. If I'm wrong, and you are in fact living in a damp flat on a sink estate because all the decent houses have been sold off, my apologies.

There are arguments in favour of council house tenants being able to buy their own houses. But none that I can see to support Thatcher's ban on councils using the money to build new ones.

1. Own home, semi, 2 bedroom, small garden. Very tight squeeze with 2 children home during the university vacs and no storage space - have 3 sheds!

2. The council house sales were fine but I agree, not building to replace was insane.

3. The biggest, IMHO, sin committed was the scrapping of Parker Morris standards with the result that the UK's new homes are amongst the smallest on the planet. How do we expect children to do homework when one tiny living room is expected to be parental leisure space, dining room, home office, etc, etc, etc - and don't say bedroom: my step-daughter has a 3rd bedroom that won't fit a standard size single bed [Mad]

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
While at the same time dehumanising the poor in her own country.
Comparing policies such as the closing down of uneconomic coal mines and the encouragement of renters to buy their council houses, to the crimes committed against tens of millions of innocent victims in the Soviet Union, China and elsewhere over the course of the twentieth century, adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the term "trivialisation".
I'm not suggesting Thatcher's crimes were of the same magnitude. Though cuddling up to dictators like Pinochet while opposing Soviet tyranny seems like double standards. Not to mention the hypocrisy of exalting individualism while treating whole groups of people as faceless masses or 'the enemy within'.

Continuing the tangent, in any case, she helped out Jaruzelski here in Poland through buying coal from miners here, thus helping to prop up the regime. She also initially supported Martial Law.

Wink was also, by the way, supportive of the Liberation Theologists in South America, who were, as he put it, "engaged in spiritual warfare (insofar as they are fighting against systems that dominate and exploit people)".

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Hosting
Whoa

I think the sociopolitical implications of Thatcherism may be just a wee tad outside the field of ecclesiantical interest.

You will be booted elsewhere - or flat taxed out of existence - if you do not desist.

Back to Amanda and other ... ooops ... back to matters of ecclesiantical interest, I think.

/Hosting

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

My negligence in obeying Ship rules,

I confess to you, Hosts.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Mea maxima culpa too! Back on track!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

consider yourself absolved

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I see that the MW report was done at home, watching it on television in the comfort of an arm-chair. So that's what the 'catch' was, and not attending in person. I had visions of a repeat of the conclave reporting scenario, as I indicated in an earler post.

Doubtless, that is allowed as it has been done by television before and I will look at the report more closely when I have a moment.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I see that the MW report was done at home, watching it on television in the comfort of an arm-chair. So that's what the 'catch' was, and not attending in person.

The Ship applied for a press pass but was not granted one.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I thought the MW report was good. Given this was such a one off event - actually being there probably would not have given you much of a sense of what the usual congregational community would be like. That being the case, I don't think much was lost by it being a TV review.

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:
Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
I see that the MW report was done at home, watching it on television in the comfort of an arm-chair. So that's what the 'catch' was, and not attending in person.
The Ship applied for a press pass but was not granted one.

I take that on board.

A good report. Regarding the commentary against the anthems being sung as irritating - I did not watch the service 'live', but by using the Daily Telegraph link as supplied on this thread. That was blissfully free of all commentary.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0