Ship of Fools: So when did you last "do" The Litany

Thread: So when did you last "do" The Litany Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

OK. Here's a new one for all you "inclusives" out there:

When did you last either say or (preferably) sing The Litany at your Church?

We always have The Litany at least once in Advent and again in Lent - plus we always try to use the relevant Prose at least once.

Quite apart from anything else, it serves a musical purpose in ensuring that a choir watches the tuning - and I forgive the PP who see its inclusion as an excuse to foreshorten the Prayers.
[Roll Eyes]

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

'Inclusives' who don't say the Litany as opposed to the 'Exclusives' who do? I'm somewhat baffled as to the point of this thread, kindly clarify.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

Lent 1998. Last time I worked in a church with a choir which (more or less) could do it.

Posted by Percy B (# 17238) on :

Which Litany?

Litany of Loreto is one of the oldest still regularly used.

I guess though you refer to Cranmer's Church of England one
[Smile]

Posted by Photo Geek (# 9757) on :

Chanted on Lent 2 at my church

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Which Litany?

As much as I know what L'organist meant, that's a very appropriate question in response to what she actually posted. At the undergrad seminary I work in, we do the Litany to St. Joseph on Wednesdays, Sacred Heart on Fridays and the BVM on Saturdays.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

We do the Great Litany (BCP) on the 1st Sunday of Lent every year. Sometimes it has been chanted and sometimes spoken.

[ 20. April 2013, 03:29: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

At Our Lady of Hardwork, we smoke the place up five times a year on the odd Sundays of Advent & Lent by singing the Great Litany in procession.

As much as it is properly a separate service to the mass, we still figure it serves just fine in place of the Prayers of the People.

Edited to add: What does this inclusive/exclusive business mean?

[ 20. April 2013, 06:06: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

At home, I try to say the Common Worship Daily Prayer litany as the intercessions every Friday morning in Lent.

I sometimes use the Litany of Loreto after saying the rosary in May and October.

I have been a member of both Affirming Catholicism and the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, and wish them both well.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We've not sung the litany since the 1970s when it was sung (instead of the sermon) during Lent. Although we have done a shortened spoken version since.

Actually, I did sing the Litany in about 2005 in a Creamtealand church I visited because I found the book of choral Litany settings in the vicar's stall. The church was empty at the time, so Mr. C. and I decided to 'Go for it'. However, when we got to 'Thy servant VICTORIA, our most gracious Queen and Governor' (for it was rather an old book), we burst out laughing and had to stop!

Posted by Devils Advocate (# 16484) on :

As one of the churchwardens of our shack ( which is in interregnum) I personally take Choral Evensong once a month ( twice if its a 5 Sunday month) The office is fully choral and ends with the appropriate Anthem of Our Lady.
We then have a hymn and once a month when we have a priest present Solemn Benediction
On the other Sundays we have intercessions followed by another hymn and The Grace
On one of the later Lenten Sundays I sang the Full BCP Litany ( It nearly killed me) It was done from the choir stalls and not in procession but it was done. The only difference from the version in the 1662 Prayer Book was the following additions.

V Saint Mary, mother of God our Saviour Jesus Christ Pray for us.
R Saint Mary, mother of God our Saviour Jesus Christ; Pray for us.
V All ye holy angels and archangels, and all ye holy orders of blessed spirits; Pray for us.
R All ye holy angels and archangels, and all ye holy orders of blessed spirits; pray for us.
V All ye holy patriarchs and prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins, and all the blessed company of heaven; Pray for us.
R All ye holy patriarchs and prophets, apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins, and all the blessed company of heaven; Pray for us.

This was as given as an addition to the Litany in Ritual Notes (1962 Edition)

I have also in the last 9 months used the Litany of Loreto and the Litany of the Saints as I thought appropriate to the particular Sunday. I have also used the full form of Evening Prayer, complete with the opening sentences and the State Prayers on a couple of occasions.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

At one stage of my personal daily office routine I used to do the Litany on Fridays. In recent times, for corporate worship, it tends to be Good Friday. Which is probably not enough. I remember as a kid, we did it at church not often, but at least a handful of times a year. Enough for it to cause a general suppressed groan amongst the choir of 'not this again'.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I meant to ask. What is an 'inclusive'?

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Litany of the Saints was sung at the Easter Vigil.

Litany of Loretto (Our Lady) is recited weekly by a rosary group.

Litany of the Sacred Heart is sung every First Friday.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Litany of the Saints was sung at the Easter Vigil.

Litany of Loretto (Our Lady) is recited weekly by a rosary group.

Litany of the Sacred Heart is sung every First Friday.

None of those apply here.

We sang the Litany straight out of the Prayer Book on the First Sunday in Lent. Personally I would like to see it return every Sunday (along with Matins) because people need to be reminded that they are miserable sinners deserving of God's holy indignation.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
Personally I would like to see it return every Sunday (along with Matins) because people need to be reminded that they are miserable sinners deserving of God's holy indignation.

Don't worry. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there quite happy to take that little task on their own shoulders, on their own initiative.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

The Litany is too long to be used at a Sung Eucharist.

Those churches that sing it on the 1st Sunday in Lent do so because they think Sundays OF Lent so they want to make everything dreary.

If you are going to sing it in procession, then the 1662 version isn't going to fit modern liturgy. We are a living church, not custodians of a museum.

The last time I witnessed a sung Litany in procession was in 1970 when we sang it on Rogation Sunday outdoors.

The last time I encountered the litany of Saints was at an Easter Vigil (but not this year's).

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Litany is too long to be used at a Sung Eucharist.

We sing it the First Sunday in Lent every year immediately before the (Sung) High Mass.

Nonsense that it's done because it's dreary. It is important to remind us all of our sins before God. If once a year is too often to plead for mercy then something is very very wrong.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you are going to sing it in procession, then the 1662 version isn't going to fit modern liturgy. We are a living church, not custodians of a museum.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

First, here's a link to the Great Litany used in the American Church. For comparison, here is a link to its very close relation in the 1662 Book.

Now, let's give leo's post a good fisking.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Litany is too long to be used at a Sung Eucharist.

Our masses clock in at about 80 minutes. Pasting on the Great Litany at the beginning, picking up the mass at the Kyries, and dropping the Prayers of the People push that up by five minutes.

quote:
Those churches that sing it on the 1st Sunday in Lent do so because they think Sundays OF Lent so they want to make everything dreary.

In your eyes, eight instances of the phrase "miserable sinners" is enough to get down and dreary?! Well, the American Church seems to agree with you and has clipped that drearitude out. What remains is remarkably fresh and up-lifting.

quote:
If you are going to sing it in procession, then the 1662 version isn't going to fit modern liturgy. We are a living church, not custodians of a museum.

But, leo. At OLoH we have a modern liturgy, we are a living parish, and we are not custodians of a museum.

quote:
The last time I witnessed a sung Litany in procession was in 1970 when we sang it on Rogation Sunday outdoors.

More's the pity.

quote:
The last time I encountered the litany of Saints was at an Easter Vigil (but not this year's).

Yet more pity. Here is a link to the Litany of the Saints (this url shortener points into Google Books) from the Anglican Service Book, an antiquing of the language of the American 1979 Book. Would that more parishes embrace a full and lively doctrine of the communion of saints.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Some of us, who actually do find ourselves coping with guilt from time to time, find the rehearsal of our guilt and its forgiveness in acts like the Litany quite uplifting.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I have only heard the Litany (any litany that is) at an Ordination. I have always found it most moving if the ordinand(s) are prostrate whilst it is sung.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Ten years ago I attended the Sunday Sung Eucharist at Norwich Cathedral. The choir chanted the Litany (modern language) as an introit instead of yet another bally hymn.

This year I attended a Sunday mass preceded by the BCP litany sung in procession (they have a trained choir). Fortunately the iffy political bits were inaudible but I found it spectacular.

The vicar preached on the need to lament in our lives and the litany was a great corporate lament.

Our fears and misery are an important aspect of life to remember, and they are no doubt better coped with if expressed in a safe space (eg liturgically). (I speak as someone due to have a major operation next week.) They are not necessarily or even ordinarily the result of our own personal failings.

Posted by sebby (# 15147) on :

I particuarly enjoy the 'high lords of the Council and all the nobilty' bit. My breast swells to think of them praying for me.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

I heard the BCP Litany sung by a choir at a lunchtime service on Ash Wednesday 10-15 years ago.

I have also encountered the CW one used as the structure an hour of prayer. I thought it worked well. Being broken into sections, it lends itself to this. I suspect it's an under-appreciated and under-used resource.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Having just had a quick look at the Common Worship version of the Litany, I would agree with Enoch. A useful resource.

We have the BCP Litany after Sunday Matins (also BCP) in Lent.

Ian J.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I believe the CW litany is integral to the Times and Seasons service for Ash Wednesday.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Sundays in Advent and Lent, I sing the Litany with the choir 10-15 minutes before the start of Mass.

The people who want it in their lives are thus edified, and the people who wish to dispense with it can just show up at their regular time.

And of course, the couple that lives less than a mile away but have never managed to arrive in time for the Epistle do as they always do. [Smile]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by dj_ordinaire

'Inclusives' who don't say the Litany as opposed to the 'Exclusives' who do? I'm somewhat baffled as to the point of this thread, kindly clarify.

Mild curiosity, nothing more. [Smile]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Leo

The Litany is too long to be used at a Sung Eucharist.

Why?

First, it can be used in place of the intercessions: any special intentions can be said at the end, if need be.

Second, unless you have a second service to go off and take elsewhere, why should the length of a liturgy be set in stone?

From time to time, when faced with Prayers of the Faithful BY the faithful I've found it a relief to have the structure of The Litany (BCP) rather than some random shopping list of intercessions going through someone's hobby-horses.... [Devil]

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Every Ash Wednesday, every Good Friday. Said, not sung.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
I have always found it most moving if the ordinand(s) are prostrate whilst it is sung.

Fortunately my diocese of ordination didn't do prostration. A friend from the next diocese up the road and up the candle said he spent the several minutes desperately trying not to sneeze, because of the dust in the carpet.

A sneeze so buggers up solemnity. [Disappointed]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

I last did the BCP Litany on Good Friday in my own parish, and the Litany for the Church on Easter Saturday whilst dedicating a Church in Missouri. I'll be saying or singing the litany for Ordinations next Saturday.

PD

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
A friend from the next diocese up the road and up the candle said he spent the several minutes desperately trying not to sneeze, because of the dust in the carpet.

Carpet?! When I were a lad, we were lucky if we had tiles on't floor. Mud and rushes were posh.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

Carpet equals target practice for thurifers in my experience. ;o) I always allow myself a sly smile when I see the patches grafted into the carpet at St Peter's, Oakland, and other places where incense is used regularly. It is one of the marks of the True Church [Big Grin]

PD

[ 21. April 2013, 14:20: Message edited by: PD ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I believe the CW litany is integral to the Times and Seasons service for Ash Wednesday.

But best omitted. The ashing should speak for itself.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Leo

The Litany is too long to be used at a Sung Eucharist.

Why?

First, it can be used in place of the intercessions: any special intentions can be said at the end, if need be.

Second, unless you have a second service to go off and take elsewhere, why should the length of a liturgy be set in stone?

From time to time, when faced with Prayers of the Faithful BY the faithful I've found it a relief to have the structure of The Litany (BCP) rather than some random shopping list of intercessions going through someone's hobby-horses....

The intercessions take 5 minutes max. The Litany takes 15 mins. So that adds 10 minutes.

no Sung mass should last over 60 mins.if possible.

In this age of multi-parish benefices, clergy usually do have another mass elsewhere and many lay people have to work on Sundays. Plus parking meters - cost.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Some of us, who actually do find ourselves coping with guilt from time to time, find the rehearsal of our guilt and its forgiveness in acts like the Litany quite uplifting.

That is what the sacrament of reconciliation is for.

Every Sunday, even in Lent, is a feast of the resurrection so there should be no grovelling.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

The Litany might be long but otherwise I don't see that it is excessively penitential. It mostly consists of intercession.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

An issue with the Litany is that congregations like to have their specific concerns included in the intercessions, and especially for the sick to be prayed for by name. General prayers for worthy things don't meet what congregations want their leaders to be praying for. I'm sure there will be some Shipmates who deplore that, along with all the other things they deplore. Nevertheless, whether you like it or not, to be the intercessions of the people, they really must pray for what the people would like to be prayed for.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Leo
Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?

Why should they go anywhere?

OK, maybe the creche age-group littles could be out but bigger children? Surely you could cover the idea of praying for everyone and the different categories as a special Sunday School topic so that they could follow it through? After all, 7/8/9 year old choristers cope with it so why not other children.

Unfortunately our Sunday School meets at the same time as the main service so most children only come once a month when its Family Service.

As to time taken by The Litany, I do appreciate that timing can be crucial in some parishes but a little judicious thought (short hymns) can make it feasible to do it AND be out in an hour - I know, we've managed it.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:

We sang the Litany straight out of the Prayer Book on the First Sunday in Lent. Personally I would like to see it return every Sunday (along with Matins) because people need to be reminded that they are miserable sinners deserving of God's holy indignation.

How Calvinist! [Biased]

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

The Scottish BCP of 1929 has a nice shorter Litany modelled on that found in the Orthodox Liturgy. It sounds quite impressive when sung.

PD

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Some of us, who actually do find ourselves coping with guilt from time to time, find the rehearsal of our guilt and its forgiveness in acts like the Litany quite uplifting.
That is what the sacrament of reconciliation is for.

Every Sunday, even in Lent, is a feast of the resurrection so there should be no grovelling.

Ah, any other feelings I'm not allowed to feel on Sunday?

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
An issue with the Litany is that congregations like to have their specific concerns included in the intercessions, and especially for the sick to be prayed for by name. General prayers for worthy things don't meet what congregations want their leaders to be praying for. I'm sure there will be some Shipmates who deplore that, along with all the other things they deplore. Nevertheless, whether you like it or not, to be the intercessions of the people, they really must pray for what the people would like to be prayed for.

Enoch, please place me firmly among the deplorable.

Precisely what circumstance is not covered in the Great Litany? Frankly, it gives the Orthodoxen a run for their money as far as full coverage of the cosmic condition. (From Basil's liturgy: "And those whom we through ignorance or forgetfulness or the multitude of names have not remembered, do thou thyself remember, O God, who knowest the age and name of each, and knowest every man even from his mother's womb.")

The sick?

quote:
That it may please thee to to visit the lonely; to strengthen all who suffer in mind, body, and spirit; and to comfort with thy presence those who are failing and infirm.

For peace?

quote:
That it may please thee to make wars to cease in all the world, etc.

Looking for social gospel?

quote:
That it may please thee to show pity upon all prisoners and captives, the homeless and the hungry, and all who are desolate and oppressed?

And, on and on it goes. But, you knew that.

Is it a problem that Cramner didn't put in a special shout-out for incontinent and house-bound Aunt Millie? Need a particular shout-out for the Palestinians? Does the congregation want especially to beg God for surcease from ecological geocide? Feel the need to ensure the Almighty is au courant with the situation in Myanmar?

Got an itchy worship committee whose manifest talents are underused?

Fine. Decorate the Litany text with petitions particular to the omphaloskeptic congregation at hand. Just make sure they scan as well as the original petiions. (I'm guessing your committee will leave the invocations & imprecations alone.)

To say, "General prayers for worthy things don't meet what congregations want their leaders to be praying for" either shows a failure of catechesis regarding prayer ("who knowest our necessities before we ask and our ignorance in asking"), or a lack of imagination among the leadership.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

no Sung mass should last over 60 mins.if possible.

It takes as long as it takes. In our place, that usually works out to an hour and fifteen. If that's too much time out of the week, then there are plenty of places that offer spoken Eucharists where you only have to think about God for a half-hour at most.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Silent Acolyte, what you're saying may be liturgically pure, but you are telling the rest of us what we ought to feel, what we ought to want out of our liturgy. 'I know what's best. These poor, benighted, weakly catechised lumpenchristians in the congregation don't know what's really good for them. They should be told what the right religious emotions and modes of expression are, and nothing else will be provided. If they don't like it, they're wrong'.

What is the difference between what you are saying and Zach's,

quote:
Ah, any other feelings I'm not allowed to feel on Sunday?

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

I think expecting the whole congregation to stop and pray for granny's lumbago every week is to misunderstand what corporate worship is.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Fr Weber
It takes as long as it takes. In our place, that usually works out to an hour and fifteen. If that's too much time out of the week, then there are plenty of places that offer spoken Eucharists where you only have to think about God for a half-hour at most.

Hear, hear.

I know that, from time to time, life can be so lousy that an extra 10/15 minutes can spell disaster but, for the most part, it really isn't the end of the world if you get home at, say, 11.45 rather than 11.30. Frankly, with things such as i-Player and the like, its a hell of a lot easier now that years ago.

In any case, is an extra 15 minutes out of the week's 168 hours so much to give?

As for special petitions by name for the sick, infirm, recently departed, etc, etc - aren't these listed in pew sheets (where you have them). In the case of a sudden death, it can be given out before the prayers are said/Litany sung.

And no, Enoch, I don't want to tell you - or anyone else - what and how to feel: but then don't expect me to feel as happy as you may when faced with rambling intercessions for people mentioned only by Christian name that I don't know. It cuts both ways.

[ 22. April 2013, 12:51: Message edited by: L'organist ]

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

L'Organist, I may have missed it, but I asked what you meant by 'inclusives'. As it's your word, could you tell me what you mean by it? Is it liturgical, political, sociological? Hard to make sense of your OP without knowing what you mean by the words you use in it.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Being an Anglican, I see both sides of this debate. Having suffered in a church where the vicar (yes, the vicar: these were not the prayers of 'the church') inflicted his personal obsessions on us week by week, including diatribes against those in authority in church and state, as well as confidential pastoral information and private family business, I see the need for objective, concise and liturgical formulae. But it does seem odd for a congregation not to mention by name its departed members, not to pray for the bishop by name, not to mention political or world events that are on everyone's mind.

But I agree, there should be a fairly minimal structure for the intercessions and refraining from telling God the news according to the Guardian or Daily Mail (whoever is leading the prayers). And certainly not to use the prayers as a way of contradicting (or even reinforcing) the sermon.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

no Sung mass should last over 60 mins.if possible.

It takes as long as it takes. In our place, that usually works out to an hour and fifteen. If that's too much time out of the week, then there are plenty of places that offer spoken Eucharists where you only have to think about God for a half-hour at most.

Very few - the 8.00 is virtually an extinct species where I live. (partly because of falling numbers attending, partly because the Parish Communion Movement encouraged a one-size-fits-all approach where everyone is supposed to come to one, central service.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Leo
Also, where are the children supposed to go during a 15 minute Litany?
Why should they go anywhere?

OK, maybe the creche age-group littles could be out but bigger children? Surely you could cover the idea of praying for everyone and the different categories as a special Sunday School topic so that they could follow it through? After all, 7/8/9 year old choristers cope with it so why not other children.

Unfortunately our Sunday School meets at the same time as the main service so most children only come once a month when its Family Service.

As to time taken by The Litany, I do appreciate that timing can be crucial in some parishes but a little judicious thought (short hymns) can make it feasible to do it AND be out in an hour - I know, we've managed it.

I have commentated on this on the thread about children.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Precisely what circumstance is not covered in the Great Litany?

Air travel! (Unless you use the deposited book.)

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

SA - if you're going to point out that everything's covered by general pleadings, you could shorten the Litany to:

"For all problems, issues, troubles, illness, disaster, sadness or anything else that's making anyone anything less than a fulfilled happy bunny, Lord we pray."

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

I've never used the Litany in church (well, not the 1662 one) but it does remind me to pray every now and then for women in labour. Even with the vastly improved maternal mortality rates - in this part of the world, at least- over the past 350 years, I think they're still worth praying for. Not an experience that I would care to undergo.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
SA - if you're going to point out that everything's covered by general pleadings, you could shorten the Litany to:

"For all problems, issues, troubles, illness, disaster, sadness or anything else that's making anyone anything less than a fulfilled happy bunny, Lord we pray."

That gets a [Overused]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Anselmina
L'Organist, I may have missed it, but I asked what you meant by 'inclusives'. As it's your word, could you tell me what you mean by it? Is it liturgical, political, sociological? Hard to make sense of your OP without knowing what you mean by the words you use in it.

Not my word - I originally saw it on another thread on SoF (can't remember which, when - sorry) and was told it meant people/worshippers who see liturgy as being something that should involve all the people. But then maybe that was wrong?

I have used the word as meaning that all the people in the church should be involved in/take part in the liturgy.

Sorry if I'm wrong or have misled - unintentional.

[Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Not my word - I originally saw it on another thread on SoF (can't remember which, when - sorry) and was told it meant people/worshippers who see liturgy as being something that should involve all the people. But then maybe that was wrong?

I have used the word as meaning that all the people in the church should be involved in/take part in the liturgy. ...

Are there people who don't think that, then? Who are they? What is their justification for such a view?

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

no Sung mass should last over 60 mins.if possible.

It takes as long as it takes. In our place, that usually works out to an hour and fifteen. If that's too much time out of the week, then there are plenty of places that offer spoken Eucharists where you only have to think about God for a half-hour at most.
Very few - the 8.00 is virtually an extinct species where I live. (partly because of falling numbers attending, partly because the Parish Communion Movement encouraged a one-size-fits-all approach where everyone is supposed to come to one, central service.

I can name 2 8am services within a couple of miles of your church.

As to the litany we had sung litany in procession before Evensong on Palm Sunday. Didn't take 15 mins though. And k astronomy year we had a joint litany in procession from a nearby church to us, recreating the first use of Cramner's litany.

Carts

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I can name 2 8am services within a couple of miles of your church.

So can I - actually one mile - and they are both under review with a view to closure.

But I live in a city and there are 2 other churches - big ones - that still do an 8.

In a village, it's a different story.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Silent Acolyte, what you're saying may be liturgically pure, but you are telling the rest of us what we ought to feel, what we ought to want out of our liturgy. 'I know what's best. These poor, benighted, weakly catechised lumpenchristians in the congregation don't know what's really good for them. They should be told what the right religious emotions and modes of expression are, and nothing else will be provided. If they don't like it, they're wrong'

Enoch, you are responding to something I haven't said.

You said, "An issue with the Litany is that congregations like to have their specific concerns included in the intercessions".

What I said was, given the cosmic comprehensiveness of the Great Litany, it hardly seemed necessary to discard the Litany, because it wasn't written afresh every Sunday morning, with the prayer list and newspaper in hand.

What I said was, that if the congregation needed particularity from the Litany, they were perfectly capable of tailoring to fit themselves.

Yes, I mocked the modern congregational self-absorption that insisted that, every Sunday, congregational petitions had to migrate from the printed service sheet to the spoken word. It seems to me that on the very few occasions when the Litany is used—and tailored prayers of the people are omitted— we can afford to abstain from hearing about Aunt Millie and Burma.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
...the 8.00 is virtually an extinct species where I live.

leo, in most of the States it's my impression that the 8 o'clock said eucharist is very common.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Precisely what circumstance is not covered in the Great Litany?
Air travel! (Unless you use the deposited book.)

The American 1979 Book has: "That it may please thee to preserve all who are in danger by reason of their labor or their travel, We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord. The American 1928 covers air-travel explicitly.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
SA - if you're going to point out that everything's covered by general pleadings, you could shorten the Litany to:

"For all problems, issues, troubles, illness, disaster, sadness or anything else that's making anyone anything less than a fulfilled happy bunny, Lord we pray."

Of course, that's aimed nowhere near my direction. The criticism has been mainly that the Great Litany is just too long for a modern parish. I'm all for the comprehensiveness of the Great Litany, I don't mind the length; however, I do disdain the modern self-absorbed obsessiveness with particularity every single week. The Orthodoxen range from the itty-bitty Jesus Prayer all the way up to the Liturgy of Basil the Great. I like that range.

On the adjacent Litany thread someone made the ad hominem accusation that it took being a parent to really know what might work for a child. I know that there are children for whom what I have described would drive them start raving mad. They shouldn't attend these churches. But, to assert that the Great Litany is unsuitable for all children or that only parents can understand children (as much as they can be understood) is just counterfactual.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

SA, I'd suggest that the number of children for whom what you describe would be suitable is actually vanishingly small.

I certainly don't know any who would not be driven start staring mad by it. YMMV, of course, but I have a suspicion that with "church children" we have a very atypical self-selecting group. More - I hesitate to use the term "normal" being a weirdo myself - shall we say "representative"? - children tend never to darken a church door. I know a number of parents who would themselves attend church but don't because they have children and know it wouldn't be suitable for them. The village I live in, for example, has several.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

We sing the Litany in Procession on Advent Sunday and Lent 1, replacing the entrance hymn (and getting rid of the intercessions later) so starting the Mass at the Kyries.

As it's a first Sunday, the children are thurifer, acolytes, crucifer, in the choir or processing with their parents.

Thurible

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

quote:
posted by Anselmina
L'Organist, I may have missed it, but I asked what you meant by 'inclusives'. As it's your word, could you tell me what you mean by it? Is it liturgical, political, sociological? Hard to make sense of your OP without knowing what you mean by the words you use in it.
Not my word - I originally saw it on another thread on SoF (can't remember which, when - sorry) and was told it meant people/worshippers who see liturgy as being something that should involve all the people. But then maybe that was wrong?

I have used the word as meaning that all the people in the church should be involved in/take part in the liturgy.

Sorry if I'm wrong or have misled - unintentional.

No, not at all. I just realized I didn't know what you meant by it and was interested. I undertsand now, and it's a good question in that context. Thank you!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
...the 8.00 is virtually an extinct species where I live.
leo, in most of the States it's my impression that the 8 o'clock said eucharist is very common.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Precisely what circumstance is not covered in the Great Litany?
Air travel! (Unless you use the deposited book.)
The American 1979 Book has: "That it may please thee to preserve all who are in danger by reason of their labor or their travel, We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord. The American 1928 covers air-travel explicitly.

Maybe there isn't a clergy shortage in the USA. There is in the UK. Even in cities, a priest often has two churches and no curate so s/he is likely to dfo two sung masses, one in each church, one starting early enough to make an 8.00 unfeasible.

I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

Incidentally, having been more dogmatic that psalm i will concede that there is a beauty in the litany but only IF it fits the mass that follows it. i had forgotten, when i posted about my last experience of the litany, that Wakefield cathedral (which i often visited when i was a student in nearby Leeds), used to do Solemn Mattins, Litany in procession and Solemn Eucharist. It was beautiful BUT it was all 1662. It wouldn't have worked if it were 1662 Litany and Series 3 (as it was then) Mass.

Nowadays, if I had kids, I would turn up with them 15 minutes late so as to avoid it.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

quote:
posted by Leo
I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

Absolutely.

I have vivid memories as a treble of us taking bets on by how far the curate would go flat by the end - slightly risky creeping out to the vestry to get a tuning fork to check but we managed it. Record stood at a major third.

Same curate had a distressing habit of singing "miser rubblesingers" [Snigger]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Nowadays, if I had kids, I would turn up with them 15 minutes late so as to avoid it.

Sounds very much like walking into an Orthodox church for the Divine Liturgy and finding Orthros/Matins in progress. Nobody thinks anything of people streaming in then.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

"For all problems, issues, troubles, illness, disaster, sadness or anything else that's making anyone anything less than a fulfilled happy bunny, Lord we pray."

Hmmm - that's exactly what the pratcher at our Church did on Sunday morning. Almost word for word.

<edited to change typo 'pracher' to 'pratcher' [Razz]

>

[ 24. April 2013, 08:15: Message edited by: Boogie ]

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :

I go to church occasionally at All Saints' Carshalton (the part of Surrey in Greater London) on a Sunday morning and I MWed that church some years ago. This church provides traditional services based on the Book of Common Prayer and English Missal.

That said, I was there one Sunday in Lent this year, when the Litany was sung (to Tallis) in procession at the Start of High Mass. What I cannot be sure of is whether or not the Litany was sung in its entirety, because everything needed for a Sunday service each week, is specially printed in full on a service paper, so that books are not provided, nor needed for reference.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

Well.pardon us Yanks for mentioning the US versions, but to us silly folks, The Litany is The Litany - the differences seeming rather negligible.

Posted by BulldogSacristan (# 11239) on :

At my parish we sing it in procession at the beginning of Mass on Lent I, Lent II, Lent II, and Lent V then pick up the the Kyrie.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

leo, this is tedious of you. And, predictably sloppy, yet supercilious at the same time.

Here is Percy B in the third response to the opening post: "Which Litany? Litany of Loreto is one of the oldest still regularly used."

Here is Hart offering three litanies in regular use completely unrelated to Cranmer, in the fifth response: "At the undergrad seminary I work in, we do the Litany to St. Joseph on Wednesdays, Sacred Heart on Fridays and the BVM on Saturdays."

In the sixth post we have Malik3000, incidentally hailing from the "North American continent, south of Hudson Bay, north of the Rio Grande,"offering opinions on something called "The Great Litany."

With many more references to "The Great Litany" in ensuing posts.

Then, there is Ceremoniar telling of the Litany of the Saints, the Litany of Loretto (Our Lady), and the Litany of the Sacred Heart (thirteenth post).

Your first intervention is at the sixteenth post.

Then, we have someone from the "New World" citing chapter & verse:

quote:
First, here's a link to the Great Litany used in the American Church. For comparison, here is a link to its very close relation in the 1662 Book.

before giving your silly first intervention "a good fisking."

We remember—and, I'm sure you do as well—the English Books have no "Great Litany," but rather merely a Letany/Litany, the 1662 and 1928 Deposited books giving it an alternate name, "General Supplication."

England is not the only pole of the Anglican world. Whenever one speaks of something Anglican, the other English-speaking centers of Anglicanism have to be brought to mind, or else the speaker will—well—sound like you.

It's provincial to be posting here and not to have some passing familiarity with (at least, the existence of) the Books of the Americas, New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa.

Perhaps, some year, the Other Africans will have something to offer, too.

quote:
...i will concede that there is a beauty in the litany but only IF it fits the mass that follows it.

You keep repeating this as if it had some meaning absent an explanation of what it means "to fit."

Please tell us.

And, for good measure, can anyone tell us when and how the Litany came to be called Great?

[ 24. April 2013, 21:33: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

And, I was being silly and sloppy when I alleged invocations and imprecations for the Litany/Great Litany. I should have written rather, invocations, deprecations, and obsecrations.

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
And, I was being silly and sloppy when I alleged invocations and imprecations for the Litany/Great Litany. I should have written rather, invocations, deprecations, and obsecrations.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
SA, I'd suggest that the number of children for whom what you describe would be suitable is actually vanishingly small.

Karl, with respect, this isn't my experience.

I've been working with seven adolescents and early adults for about ten to fifteen years, starting at the ages of six or seven, now at thirteen to their early twenties—with about the same number of adults. One grump would regularly rather be having a weekly root canal than be in church. But, one works Saturday night until 5:30 am and still comes with her lovely smile. Recruitment of seven- and eight-year-olds is currently looking grim, but we have successfully weathered similar droughts. The Sunday School varies wildly between a handful of children to about twenty. There are about fifteen boys in the boy choir.

It is certainly not all sweetness and light and I have been soberly lectured by a thirteen-year-old about the social normativity of Colored People's Time when I get too interested in the sacristy clock at twenty-five minutes 'til.

We have been invited to an annual regional acolyte festival in order to show "how it should be done."

My experience isn't universal, but there it is. Average Sunday Attendance has been slowly increasing or holding steady over the last decade. Pledge income has been rising much faster than inflation.

What we do at my parish certainly isn't for everyone. But, what we do is certainly working for us.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Your experience is your experience, but these children just don't sound like any of the children I know!

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
We sing the Litany in Procession on Advent Sunday and Lent 1, replacing the entrance hymn (and getting rid of the intercessions later) so starting the Mass at the Kyries.

As it's a first Sunday, the children are thurifer, acolytes, crucifer, in the choir or processing with their parents.

Thurible

We do this too and then begin the service with the Collect. We have about 25 kids at our church and they love it because we form two processions that meet up in the middle with the children together at the front of each with the choir and acolytes.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
... England is not the only pole of the Anglican world. Whenever one speaks of something Anglican, the other English-speaking centers of Anglicanism have to be brought to mind, or else the speaker will—well—sound like you. ...

Yebbut, we think we're the real Anglicans. The clue is in the name. Just as I suspect the Italians think they're the only real Catholics (mind, I think the Irish do too). And I'm sure the Greeks think the Bulgarians, Roumanians, Russians etc go through life really wishing they were Greek.

I know this is a joke, but scratch below the surface and underneath, that is what we do think. We tend to take it for granted that if people in other parts of the world self identify as Anglicans, then obviously they'll want to be as like us as possible.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

Well.pardon us Yanks for mentioning the US versions, but to us silly folks, The Litany is The Litany - the differences seeming rather negligible.

Exactly. The something I called "The Great Litany" is what the U.S. BCP calls what is called simply The Litany in the 1662 CofE book -- with a few negligible variations. It's the same animal! The main reason the US '79 BCP calls it The Great Litany is simply to distinguish it from other litanies that have been added in the "Prayers of the People" section of the U.S. BCP. (They were able to be added because the approval of the U.S. Congress wasn't needed to revise the U.S. book [Biased]

) And, even though the US BCP uses mostly contemporary English, the (Great) Litany is still in traditional-style English.

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:

quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

I was assuming that it was Cranmer's 1662 litany that was referred to throughout this thread.

Well.pardon us Yanks for mentioning the US versions, but to us silly folks, The Litany is The Litany - the differences seeming rather negligible.
Exactly. The something I called "The Great Litany" is what the U.S. BCP calls what is called simply The Litany in the 1662 CofE book -- with a few negligible variations. It's the same animal! The main reason the US '79 BCP calls it The Great Litany is simply to distinguish it from other litanies that have been added in the "Prayers of the People" section of the U.S. BCP. (They were able to be added because the approval of the U.S. Congress wasn't needed to revise the U.S. book ) And, even though the US BCP uses mostly contemporary English, the (Great) Litany is still in traditional-style English.

The 1979 version de emphasizes sin.

Posted by daviddrinkell (# 8854) on :

We (Anglican Cathedral, St. Johns, Newfoundland) sing the Litany in procession at 11.00 on the Second Sunday in Advent and the First Sunday in Lent, and at Evensong on the last Sundays of Advent and Lent, using the Book of Common Prayer (Canada).

I always look forward to Litany Sundays, especially when we sing it in procession. Such a simple piece of Liturgy, but tremendously effective.

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Indifferently, just how much emphasis on sin do you need?

(Since the 1979 US Book of Common Prayer is entirely in the public domain I am not violating any copyright laws by quoting the following from The Great Litany in said book)

quote:

Remember not, Lord Christ, our offenses, nor the offenses of our forefathers; neither reward us according to our sins. Spare us, good Lord, spare thy people, whom thou hast redeemed with thy most precious blood, and by thy mercy preserve us for ever.
Spare us, good Lord.
From all evil and wickedness; from sin; from the crafts and assaults of the devil; and from everlasting damnation,
Good Lord, deliver us.
From all blindness of heart; from pride, vainglory, and hypocrisy; from envy, hatred, and malice; and from all want of charity,
Good Lord, deliver us.
From all inordinate and sinful affections; and from all the deceits of the world, the flesh, and the devil,
Good Lord, deliver us.
From all false doctrine, heresy, and schism; from hardness of heart, and contempt of thy Word and commandment,
Good Lord, deliver us.
. . .
That it may please thee to bring into the way of truth all such as have erred, and are deceived,
We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord.
That it may please thee to give us a heart to love and fear thee, and diligently to live after thy commandments,
We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord.
. . .
That it may please thee to give us true repentance; to forgive us all our sins, negligences, and ignorances; and to endue us with the grace of thy Holy Spirit to amend our lives according to thy holy Word,
We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord.
That it may please thee to forgive our enemies, persecutors, and slanderers, and to turn their hearts,
We beseech thee to hear us, good Lord.

The Litany is about intercession for the whole church and the whole world -- that includes praying for forgiveness about our sins but is not limited to that. It's not all about us and our individual piety.

[ 26. April 2013, 10:34: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Speaking of litanies other than "The (Great) Litany" and speaking of sin, the Ash Wednesday liturgy in the 1979 US BCP has one of the best penitential litanies i've seen (IMHO of course).

ed. for typo

[ 26. April 2013, 10:42: Message edited by: malik3000 ]

Posted by Indifferently (# 17517) on :

I would like to see a resurrection of the Commination on Ash Wednesday.

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