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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Catholic liturgy in English
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
It's not only in English that those responsible for the first official vernacular versions departed significantly from the Latin text.
(Whether the Latin text ,as text, is effective liturgy is another question )
For those who know the text in Latin of 'Orate,fratres... with its response 'suscipiat Dominus..... the French version has
Prions ensemble au moment d'offrir le sacrifice de toute l'eglise
with the reply
Pour la gloire de Dieu et le salut du monde
(Let us pray together at the moment of offering the sacrifice of the whole Church
For the glory of God and the salvation of the world)
While I am quite happy to use these responses in French as they have been used for almost 50 years they are hardly even a free translation of the Latin.
The new English version of this prayer and its response adds the word 'holy' before Church which was previously missing.
As far as the ordinary churchgoer is concerned once people are used to a particular form,they just accept it,though there will always be some people who don't like this or don't like that .
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Indifferently
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# 17517
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Posted
I t think And with thy spirit is traditionally restricted to the priesthood, since the deacon reading the Gospel is also greeted with it. I presume lay ministers saying offices are also permitted its use.
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, I don't think applying dynamic equivalence to liturgy is necessarily a wrong notion. To go back to the example of the apostolic greeting, "And also with you" is NOT the dynamic equivalent of "Et cum spiritu tuo". The reality is that the latter involves a theological/ontological concept of the spirit of priesthood (or so I've always understood it), and the response "And also with you" just doesn't grasp that.
I hope I don't seem unduly paranoid in suspecting that this was not an accident. It seems to me that there is an element in the RCC which has been chipping away at the transcendent for several decades now, and the ICEL translation of the Mass was one of their signal victories.
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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, I don't think applying dynamic equivalence to liturgy is necessarily a wrong notion. To go back to the example of the apostolic greeting, "And also with you" is NOT the dynamic equivalent of "Et cum spiritu tuo". The reality is that the latter involves a theological/ontological concept of the spirit of priesthood (or so I've always understood it), and the response "And also with you" just doesn't grasp that.
I hope I don't seem unduly paranoid in suspecting that this was not an accident. It seems to me that there is an element in the RCC which has been chipping away at the transcendent for several decades now, and the ICEL translation of the Mass was one of their signal victories.
I think there was a lot of exuberance on the part of translators who never foresaw the kind of trouble that would erupt.
There's lots of theories that the inclusion of protestant ideologies in Vatican 2 bore fruit in the liturgy specifically - and Benedict XVI's pontificate did a lot to restore the dignity of the Roman rite, while keeping the best things that the Church "remembered" about its heritage and mission through contact with non-Catholic Christian philosophers and theologians.
(re. "And also with you" is NOT the dynamic equivalent of "Et cum spiritu tuo"."... it pretty much is, if you only understand "your spirit" as a flowery way of saying "you").
[ 22. April 2013, 16:00: Message edited by: loggats ]
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
I t think And with thy spirit is traditionally restricted to the priesthood, since the deacon reading the Gospel is also greeted with it. I presume lay ministers saying offices are also permitted its use.
Lay ministers saying the offices properly say instead, "O Lord, hear our prayer", to which the response is, "And let our cry come unto thee", rather than "The Lord be with you", or at least this is what I've been taught.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
There was something of a stink when the 1960 Breviary came in because priests were ordered to use
"Lord hear our prayer, and let our cry come unto thee"
instead of the accustomed greeting when saying the office privately. It was held to be a shot at the nature of the priesthood and there were rumours that old Ottaviani was warming up the rack down at the Holy Office in case they did anything worse to the Liturgy.
PD
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The bigger question is whether Latinisms like "consubstantial" make sense, when the English reformers came up with a perfectly English and orthodox formulation nearly 500 years ago.
I don't have a problem with "consubstantial" per se--I agree that the BCP translation is more graceful, but the frantic hand-waving of the Sister Mary Pantsuit Brigade over the evil 4-syllable word was just hilarious.
Cribbing from the BCP would, of course, be an admission that the Anglicans were right about something. Couldn't have that, obviously!
Agreed. Consubstantial is fine because it is extremely accurate, and I don't see any more difficulty learning what that means than vouchsafe, beseech, etc. However, having said that, I would agree that being of one substance with the Father is more graceful and every bit as accurate.
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Basilica
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# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The bigger question is whether Latinisms like "consubstantial" make sense, when the English reformers came up with a perfectly English and orthodox formulation nearly 500 years ago.
I don't have a problem with "consubstantial" per se--I agree that the BCP translation is more graceful, but the frantic hand-waving of the Sister Mary Pantsuit Brigade over the evil 4-syllable word was just hilarious.
Cribbing from the BCP would, of course, be an admission that the Anglicans were right about something. Couldn't have that, obviously!
Agreed. Consubstantial is fine because it is extremely accurate, and I don't see any more difficulty learning what that means than vouchsafe, beseech, etc. However, having said that, I would agree that being of one substance with the Father is more graceful and every bit as accurate.
And certainly more accurate than "of one being with the Father", which is a near-heretical mistranslation of ousia.
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Adam.
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# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, I don't think applying dynamic equivalence to liturgy is necessarily a wrong notion.
I agree with you there. Comme le Prevoit was not tried and found wanting, it was never tried at all.
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, I don't think applying dynamic equivalence to liturgy is necessarily a wrong notion.
I agree with you there. Comme le Prevoit was not tried and found wanting, it was never tried at all.
Weren't translations from the 1st and 2nd editions of the new Missal attempts at trying out Comme le prevoit, and introducing dynamic equivalence? Maybe they didn't go as far as you would have liked (?) or went too far (otherwise why would there have been a need for Liturgiam Authenticam), but I can't see how "it was never tried at all."
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
I would say that many of those changes were introduced under the banner of dynamic equivalency, but went far beyond that into actually changing content (the dominical salutation & the orate, fratres being two examples).
With the advent of Vatican II, certain factions within the RCC saw an opportunity to make sweeping changes to the church's identity and ethos, usually invoking a nebulous "spirit of Vatican II". For this reason, many churches were stripped of decoration, fine vestments packed away in closets, libraries of choral music in Latin consigned to dumpsters. And armies of CCD and Religion instructors began to teach doctrines which either ignored or directly contradicted the magisterium.
This eagerness to demystify pretty clearly bled into ICEL. Aside from the possible doctrinal problems with the recently-retired Missal, the language of the translation is wilfully prosaic and unlovely. The newer translation isn't much of an improvement on that, but it's at least somewhat more accurate in rendering the Latin.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, I don't think applying dynamic equivalence to liturgy is necessarily a wrong notion.
I agree with you there. Comme le Prevoit was not tried and found wanting, it was never tried at all.
Weren't translations from the 1st and 2nd editions of the new Missal attempts at trying out Comme le prevoit, and introducing dynamic equivalence? Maybe they didn't go as far as you would have liked (?) or went too far (otherwise why would there have been a need for Liturgiam Authenticam), but I can't see how "it was never tried at all."
Dynamic equivalence takes a several stage approach to translating. What should happen is the following:
1) You read the Latin;
2) You do philological and historical work to figure out what the Latin means;
3) You do stylistic work to find an elegant way of conveying that meaning in English.
(Change the languages as needed). The emphasis should be on preserving the meaning of large semantic units (eg. sentences) without trying to preserve the grammatical contours of those sentences. This is a way to produce elegant translations of elegant texts that respect the best sounding English structures.
However, this wasn't what ICEL did. In their rush, they often produced translations that lost a huge amount of the meaning of the texts they were translating. The Vatican's response (and a response was certainly needed) was to insist on translations that follow the shape of the Latin text very closely (though 'word-for-word' is a caricature of LA). The result of this is that we often get clunky sounding translations. Meaning has been preserved, but at the expense of elegance. I don't think such a trade-off was actually necessary.
Now, sometimes they 'lucked out' and got a Latin sentence which works well translated formal-equivalence-wise into English (I'd put most of the ordinary in this category), but often they didn't (most of the collects).
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
but the new Missal translation cannot be salvaged due to its objective ugliness.
An opinion with which I resoundly disagree. I joined the Holy Church in 2011, with only a few months to go until the new translation came into effect, in Advent 2011. As a former Anglo-Catholic, I knew the previous version well. I eagerly awaited the change, and have loved it since. The majority of worshippers just got on with it as they were told to do, and have now settled into it. Somre regret the change, others, myself included, welcome it. There is no "objective ugliness" just your self-opinionated view.
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Cribbing from the BCP would, of course, be an admission that the Anglicans were right about something. Couldn't have that, obviously!
Well the translator(s) of the BCP certainly knew how to translate from Latin into English without seeming to worry about dynamic equivalence. The English flows in a naturally elegant way, without losing anything of meaning. I have no feeling for the Calvinsit theology of the BCP, but as a work of English prose, it has never been bettered. That much, they got right!
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The new RC translation is an improvement over the old, but could still do with a little polishing.
Around here there has been something of a resurgence in the use of Greek/Latin usually for the Kyrie, the Sanctus, and the Agnus Dei. The general presentation of the Mass is also a bit less cheesy than it used to be, though one or two priests are still being very "polyester" in their approach.
FWIW, the 1552/1662 drops into the crack between Lutheran and Reformed theologically. The emphasis on the Verba at the consecration is typically Lutheran, even if the way this is done is not quite your average Formula Missae presentation. The preservation of the Office has more of a north German Lutheran twang to it than a Reformed whine.
PD
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
Why the revision? It is about maintaining unity. The mass used from the 1970s until recently was a valid mass, even though it used "And also with you." Clearly the leadership made a choice to bring the English mass into greater unity with the Latin mass, and hopefully in doing so, with others around the world.
[I do think part of it has to do with the fact that being able to read several languages is practically a priestly necessity, and as it is a topic which is of import to those in power, the situation became an unnecessarily pressing issue.]
On a personal note as a non-RC, I agree with my fellow Lutheran, PD ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) , that the new text could use some polishing. I do believe that this will happen within the next 50 years.
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
I myself like the new translation, and also because in many places, the old didn’t translate the text at all. For some (to my unknown) reason, many of the latin references to splendour and (even) grace (gracious Father, etc.) were simply removed. It seems to me that ‘dynamic equivalence’ often became ‘remove what to me isn’t ‘relevant’ or what I don’t like.’ The point of dynamic equivalence must be to translate meaning, not to remove it. But that is what happened in many places. And liturgy is not supposed to be just about ‘getting the meaning across.’ If that were the case, they should just have sunday school with a few prayers and a Eucharist.
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
One of the ideas was that the new form of the Mass in English should be closer to the Latin text,which is considered to be the normative text.
In the Catholic Church (latin rite) it’s not just considered to be the normative text. It is the normative text.
quote:
Originally posted by Indifferently:
It is a thing plainly repugnant to the Word of God, and the custom of the Primitive Church, to have public Prayer in the Church, or to minister the Sacraments, in a tongue not understanded of the people.
So english-speaking people don’t understand english? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
As I have pointed out, the Lithuanian translation was closer to English principles than to Latinate ones, and I'd imagine it's to be the case for Scandinavian, Finno-Hungarian, and Germanic tongues, and likely for others (the Syriac family Maltese language was already cited).
I live in Norway, where the translation has always been closer to the latin. We* say “og med din ånd” (“and with your/thy spirit”).
* ‘We’ is not entirely correct, since I’m a non-Catholic.
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ThunderBunk
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# 15579
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Posted
If I remember rightly, the ICEL translation was a deliberate attempt to produce a text of some poetic and rhetorical power within a limited vocabulary about 5000 words. This is why the collects are so very flat, as are some of the eucharistic prayers. This produces a vernacular text, so you are actually doing liturgy in the vernacular, as suggested by Vatican II.
Whatever you are doing with the new translation, it is not liturgy in the vernacular. Or at least not in a vernacular anyone could ever speak. It has thoroughly put me off going anywhere near RC churches, because my blood boils every time I hear its clumsy latinate attempts at producing English.
I am a trained literary translator, so this may be an occupational hazard, but I am not a monolingual anglophone bigot, which seems to be the common accusation made against those who dislike the new "translation".
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
Why must vernacular = a vocab of 5,000 words? Weird.
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Why must vernacular = a vocab of 5,000 words? Weird.
You misunderstand me. My point is that, however flattened, the way it was done had to do with a particular way of using English expressively. It was not a deliberate attempt not to speak English, which is now the new translation feels to me.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
It will be interesting to see what effects the new translation has on Anglican and Lutheran liturgies. I'm not sure we'll see such effects in America very soon, however, as the ELCA has a rather new service book and hymnal, Evangelical Lutheran Worship, and although some features of TEC's 1979 BCP are becoming a bit long in the tooth, I don't think TEC is ready for a new process of prayerbook revision -- the Episcopal Church has been in a state of varying degrees of turmoil starting with the last bout of prayerbook revision beginning in the early 1970s, continuing through OoW and the human sexuality controversies, and now needs a period of rest and consolidation. However, perhaps by the late 2020s, we'll begin to see some movement for bringing features of non-RC liturgy into line with the new translation (perhaps tweaked by then) of the Novus Ordo.
On a tangent, I find myself wondering if TEC could be at the end of its series of BCPs, and that in future we'll simply see various authorised supplementary and alternative texts, rather than any effort to revise the 1979 in toto.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Why must vernacular = a vocab of 5,000 words? Weird.
One reason surely is that for many 'English-speaking' communities, English is not their first language. I'm currently doing locum duty for an Anglican church in Italy, and while some of the old expatriate anglophones would prefer the Book of Common Prayer, the practical need is for a liturgy in simple modern English because many of the congregation are from Africa and elsewhere and their first language is not English. All credit to them that they are fluent enough in it to worship in an anglophone congregation as well as being fluent enough in Italian to survive in this city.
I'm sure this problem is magnified for very many Catholic churches in our increasingly multi-cultural society.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm sure this problem is magnified for very many Catholic churches in our increasingly multi-cultural society.
Wouldn't it be great if we could then have a liturgy in a common language that everyone was familiar with...oh, hang on...
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Well yes. I can see the point. Though I would want to distinguish between 'Godward' elements of worship, and 'human-ward' ones. Of course all worship is Godward, but parts of it depend on our understanding in a particular way, and while Latin might well be appropriate, say, for the Gloria in Excelsis it might be less so for the prayers of the people.
A liturgy that no-one can understand is a great leveller, but more effective is one that all can understand at a basic level. High-flown language for a congregation not especially fluent in English (or whatever the vernacular in question) can be divisive.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
I'm not opposed to that view, Angloid, but Liturgy is not about human comprehension and the immediately apprehensible.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
I agree, but parts of it are made much more effective if comprehension is involved. As i suggested, the Prayers of the People can't really be called such if the people don't understand what is being said in their name.
I would have thought the ideal compromise is what happens in most cathedrals (both Anglican and Catholic) at a choral mass, when the invariable parts of the Ordinary are sung in Latin and the rest is in the vernacular.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
As for the prayers of the people, I don't really know what they are for and why they were introduced. It seems to me that the intentions are included in the Canon.
As for the 'vernacular' bits: I am about to go to assist at the main Sunday Mass in a small, rural town in coastalSouthern England. About 1/4 of the congregation will be Polish, 1/4 from South Asia or West Africa, there will be a dozen or so Philippino families, assorted non-English European tourists and yachties. What is the vernacular?
[ 28. April 2013, 07:44: Message edited by: Trisagion ]
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
I think you've answered that question! I've just celebrated the Eucharist for the Anglican community in Genoa; native British English speakers about 35%; various African first languages with English in common about 35%; Japanese-German-Swiss-French-Italian first language speakers probably making up the rest. Everybody speaks some Italian but not all of them enough to understand the readings and sermon; 'basic' English is more or less the lingua franca.
I don't suppose there are many if any RC churches where Latin is the common language not just for liturgy but for teaching and general communication. There needs to be some accepted mutually comprehensible language and as often as not that is English. Well, it is for us Anglicans, but in the UK (apart from Wales) I guess it applies to everyone else as well.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
I'm not at all that's right. The section of Sacrosanctam Concilium that permits the use of the vernacular does not talk about a lingua franca but about a lingua vernacula, a mother tongue. English wouldn't have counted as that for more than about a 1/3 of our congregation this morning.
It seems to me that there is a certain irony in the Church all but abandoning a common liturgical tongue at just the time in her history that the mass movement of peoples, not to mention travelling for business or leisure would make it genuinely useful.
To return to the OP: we are now 18mths into a preaching plan based on the prayers and texts of the revised translations. I am continually struck by the depth of the new translation and how impoverished - both linguistically and theologically - of its predecessor. It has made for some uncomfortable exchanges, however. One Sunday eight months ago, or so, one of our parishioners who is involved in everything in te parish and more widely in the diocese came to me after Mass where I had preached on the text of the collect. Her beef wasn't with my homily - remarkably - but with the text of the collect. It rendered entirely faithfully the Latin original and she said to me hat she simply didn't believe the doctrine it expressed. In the homily I had compared the new translation which the old: she said that, "The old translation was woollier and I could live with it but this new one doesn't leave any room to hide." Mmm.
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
I'm in favour of vernacular liturgy. Translating is a tightrope. How do we manage to balance accuracy with an ever changing language? Actually I think looking to the old Roman Rite gives us a clue as to how the early Church thought it should be approached. For the first couple of centuries the liturgy in Rome was celebrated mainly in Greek and around the third century Latin began to be used. However, looking at some of the most ancient prayers in the rite we see the use of some quite archaic language. A good example is the use of "quaesumus" which translated means "we bessech thee" or "prithee". This world was considered archaic even in Cicero's day, never mind the third century, but it was used to give a sense of archaic solemnity.
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
I, too, am in favour of a vernacular liturgy if you can establish what is the native language - which my little example was intended to illustrate is not easy. Absent that, then the argument for a lingua franca might point to English but within the Latin Rite the eponymous option has something to recommend it.
The other problem is precisely that of translation and the status of the normative.
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
As for the 'vernacular' bits: I am about to go to assist at the main Sunday Mass in a small, rural town in coastalSouthern England. About 1/4 of the congregation will be Polish, 1/4 from South Asia or West Africa, there will be a dozen or so Philippino families, assorted non-English European tourists and yachties. What is the vernacular?
I deal with a lot of immigrants from Latin America, most of whose native language is either Spanish or Nahuatl. Many of them are extremely appreciative of the fact that their [native English-speaking] priests try their best to speak Spanish, but they do express frustration that it is almost always difficult to understand the homily.
Many of them have developed survival English skills: they can understand simple, spoken English. More than once I have heard it said that some priests should simply preach a short homily in simple, not-too-fast English.
One of the nice things about a worldwide by-the-book liturgy is that it is not too difficult to learn.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
You'll often find in ContinentalEurope that in larger areas Catholic churches will generally have at least one Mass in English.It is the lingua franca and many peoplew can understand something of it.
I remember someone here complaining about the not too good English of a priest celebrating Mass in English in Prague. The complainer was oblivious of the fact that the priest's first language and that of a good number of the participants would not have been English. But to give an example most Italians wishing to assist at sunday Mass in Prague would probably understand English better than Czech.
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Why must vernacular = a vocab of 5,000 words? Weird.
One reason surely is that for many 'English-speaking' communities, English is not their first language. I'm currently doing locum duty for an Anglican church in Italy, and while some of the old expatriate anglophones would prefer the Book of Common Prayer, the practical need is for a liturgy in simple modern English because many of the congregation are from Africa and elsewhere and their first language is not English. All credit to them that they are fluent enough in it to worship in an anglophone congregation as well as being fluent enough in Italian to survive in this city.
I'm sure this problem is magnified for very many Catholic churches in our increasingly multi-cultural society.
But I'm pretty sure that words like 'grace' and 'gracious' are in the vocabulary of these people, yet in many cases these words were cut out.
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Katolikken
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k-mann
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# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
I'm in favour of vernacular liturgy. Translating is a tightrope. How do we manage to balance accuracy with an ever changing language? Actually I think looking to the old Roman Rite gives us a clue as to how the early Church thought it should be approached. For the first couple of centuries the liturgy in Rome was celebrated mainly in Greek and around the third century Latin began to be used. However, looking at some of the most ancient prayers in the rite we see the use of some quite archaic language. A good example is the use of "quaesumus" which translated means "we bessech thee" or "prithee". This world was considered archaic even in Cicero's day, never mind the third century, but it was used to give a sense of archaic solemnity.
Another example is the use of the word calix, 'chalice.' That was archaic also in the days of Cicero, yet they still retained it in the Roman Rite.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
I seem to remember a long argument last time the new translation was discussed on the Ship about:
- Whether the RCC had been right to change its translation from 'cup' to 'chalice'.
- Whether that was a better translation of calix or the sort of false friend a non-native-English-speaker person might have chosen, and
- Since calix itself was a translation from the original Greek word, which definitely better translates into English as 'cup', the RCC should have followed the universal practice of every other ecclesial community in the Anglophone word, and stayed with 'cup'.
I.e. which is the Ur-text, the Latin version of the Mass or the Greek New Testament that precedes and underlies the Latin?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Which demands the question, why? and, why should it be?
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Indeed.However the Latin text of the Mass is the form approved for the Roman rite.All translations of the Roman rite are translations of that text.
Whether the Latin text is the best that it could be is another question.
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PaulTH*
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# 320
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Posted
I think there's a lot to be said for having a liturgical language. To find the Mass the same from Poland to Peru, from Italy to Idaho is a great leveller. Vatican II allowed for Mass in the vernacular, which I entirely agree with, but it never anticipated that Latin would be abandoned in favour of vernacular liturgies. The Jews kept Hebrew alive for millenia as language of worship. The Russian Orthodox have Old Slavonic. Even Cranmerian English, once meant to be understood by the people, has become a liturgical language.
As a member of both the Latin Mass Society and the Association for Latin Liturgy, most of the Masses I attend are in Latin, either in the Ordinary or Extraordinary Forms. I couldn't hold a conversation in Latin, but it isn't rocket science to learn the meaning, when all moderm missals contain a translation. While it might not be to everyone's taste to worship that way, and I quite accept that, I personally believe that the Catholic Church should do more to promote the use of Latin, as it's still the template on which all Catholic liturgy is built.
Having said that, even if the ICEL translation was in more natural English than the latest version, it omitted so much from the Latin, or added where it shouldn't, that it can confuse. One very simple example is: Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth, which simply translates as Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts (although hosts isn't and never was a particularly good word to use here). Compare that with; Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of power and might. This is really not a translation, and people used to saying it have trouble with the punctuation in the later version, which restores it to its latin original. This has to be an improvement.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Since calix itself was a translation from the original Greek word, which definitely better translates into English as 'cup', the RCC should have followed the universal practice of every other ecclesial community in the Anglophone word, and stayed with 'cup'.
I.e. which is the Ur-text, the Latin version of the Mass or the Greek New Testament that precedes and underlies the Latin?
For RCs, like or not not, the original language of liturgical texts is indeed Latin. That is what is being translated.
I found the reference to "the universal practice of every other ecclesial community in the Anglophone wor[l]d" amusing, as if one could: a) Make a statement referring to "universal practice" without any reference to RC practice, and b) think that the RCC should strive to pattern her liturgy after that of Protestant and other denominations.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
I found the reference to "the universal practice of every other ecclesial community in the Anglophone wor[l]d" amusing, as if one could: a) Make a statement referring to "universal practice" without any reference to RC practice, and b) think that the RCC should strive to pattern her liturgy after that of Protestant and other denominations.
Enoch was not saying that. He said 'every other ecclesial community.' Though that included the RCs themselves until not long ago. The implication is that the RCC should pattern her liturgy according to the principles of good translation. 'Chalice' is not translation so much as transliteration.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Thank you Angloid. I could not have put it better.
Ceremoniar, your condescension does your communion no favours. It is also very odd, and intellectually untenable, that anyone can seriously maintain that the desire to emulate a Latin translation that is by its nature derivative, should prevail over both fidelity to the Greek New Testament and euphony in the target language.
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loggats
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# 17643
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Posted
Re Latin as a liturgical language...
The editio typica that all translations must reflect is obviously Latin - and I think the argument justifying this is built round the idea that there's an important sacramental reality we access through the Latin rite, in the way it developed, the theology it exemplifies and in its specific literary features. Catherine Pickstock makes much of this in 'Beyond Writing' (though she talks about the Tridentine rite and definitely not the Paul VI mass).
[ 29. April 2013, 22:46: Message edited by: loggats ]
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Angloid. I could not have put it better.
Ceremoniar, your condescension does your communion no favours. It is also very odd, and intellectually untenable, that anyone can seriously maintain that the desire to emulate a Latin translation that is by its nature derivative, should prevail over both fidelity to the Greek New Testament and euphony in the target language.
Oh, please, spare me the platitudes. The only condescension here came from those who criticized the Catholic Church for not arranging its liturgy according to the desires of non-Catholics. I was just responding to those snipes, to which you have, it would seem, added your own.
Rather than claim that something is "untenable," you would be well-advised to see that no one, certainly not I, made any comments about the Greek New Testament per se. I said that the original language of the liturgical texts is Latin, since we were speaking about the translation of said Latin texts into English. Much as it may distress you, Latin is indeed the language in which said liturgical texts have been composed for nearly 17 centuies.
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Mr. Rob
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# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Are you suffering from a variant of Tourette's, as a result of which, whatever the subject under discussion you involuntarily ejaculate something from the BCP, whether it goes to the question or not?
And when was the BCP last the tongue of the common people? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Actually,the BCP is in the " tongue of the common people " now in most or all of the Anglican Communion. With the notable exception of the C of E, most national churches have continually revised the languages of their several "official" Books of Common Prayer so that the language may be better understood. And we also know that's true in England these days, where only a minority rely on the full use of the "official" 1662 book.
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Anyway Art XXIV is aboout 'such a Tongue as the people understandeth'- not the one that they speak, or that the common people speak.
Hence e.g. the permission to use a Latin translation of the BCP in colleges and universities where it was expected that all present would understand it. (No, I don't knwo why you would bother, if they all could also understand the English original, but that's by the by.)
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Angloid. I could not have put it better.
Ceremoniar, your condescension does your communion no favours. It is also very odd, and intellectually untenable, that anyone can seriously maintain that the desire to emulate a Latin translation that is by its nature derivative, should prevail over both fidelity to the Greek New Testament and euphony in the target language.
Oh, please, spare me the platitudes. The only condescension here came from those who criticized the Catholic Church for not arranging its liturgy according to the desires of non-Catholics. I was just responding to those snipes, to which you have, it would seem, added your own.
Rather than claim that something is "untenable," you would be well-advised to see that no one, certainly not I, made any comments about the Greek New Testament per se. I said that the original language of the liturgical texts is Latin, since we were speaking about the translation of said Latin texts into English. Much as it may distress you, Latin is indeed the language in which said liturgical texts have been composed for nearly 17 centuies.
Yes, and the normative text of the scriptures the Roman Rite uses is a Latin translation, whether that be the old Latin or the Vulgate.
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malik3000
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# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Angloid. I could not have put it better.
Ceremoniar, your condescension does your communion no favours. It is also very odd, and intellectually untenable, that anyone can seriously maintain that the desire to emulate a Latin translation that is by its nature derivative, should prevail over both fidelity to the Greek New Testament and euphony in the target language.
Oh, please, spare me the platitudes. The only condescension here came from those who criticized the Catholic Church for not arranging its liturgy according to the desires of non-Catholics. I was just responding to those snipes, to which you have, it would seem, added your own.
Rather than claim that something is "untenable," you would be well-advised to see that no one, certainly not I, made any comments about the Greek New Testament per se. I said that the original language of the liturgical texts is Latin, since we were speaking about the translation of said Latin texts into English. Much as it may distress you, Latin is indeed the language in which said liturgical texts have been composed for nearly 17 centuies.
Yes, and the normative text of the scriptures the Roman Rite uses is a Latin translation, whether that be the old Latin or the Vulgate.
Nonetheless, the fact remains that the Latin translation is still derivative of the Greek. And i'll bet there are at least some English-speaking Roman Catholics who would prefer a little more euphony in the vernacular translations.
[ 01. May 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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Edgeman
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# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
I myself like the new translation, and also because in many places, the old didn’t translate the text at all. For some (to my unknown) reason, many of the latin references to splendour and (even) grace (gracious Father, etc.) were simply removed. It seems to me that ‘dynamic equivalence’ often became ‘remove what to me isn’t ‘relevant’ or what I don’t like.’ The point of dynamic equivalence must be to translate meaning, not to remove it. But that is what happened in many places. And liturgy is not supposed to be just about ‘getting the meaning across.’ If that were the case, they should just have sunday school with a few prayers and a Eucharist.
This was my main issue with the old translation. It didn't always translate some concept in the prayers at all. Sometimes the 'translations' didn't bear any resemblance to what they were supposed to translate! (Monday's collect, interestingly, is an oft-quoted example of this very thing.)
All sorts of scriptural quotations and allusions in the texts were simply not translated, or translated in such a way that the real meanings were obscured. (As an example, I didn't know that eucharistic prayer III had a reference to Malachi 1:11 in it.)
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