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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How to "improve" how we do liturgy?
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
I attend a really great Catholic church. It's a university parish, but with a majority of older folks and families. The students don't come to mass at our church, mostly because of how we do liturgy. We have so many strengths as a community - a real sense of 'family' and welcoming, a very active social justice ministry, lots of outreach and work with people in poverty, good music ... but something is lacking when it comes to liturgy.
I've been trying to put my finger on it for a while, and would love to come up with some concrete, practical ideas for increasing a sense of reverence and beauty during the Mass, which I think is missing. The church does take some liberties with the GIRM, which doesn't help much (for instance, we have 'friendly time' - a break after the homily during which the collection is taken and the children return from child church); we use a 'posture of prayer' - standing with arms out in the orans position - after the Holy rather than kneeling; and people mostly receive via intinction). I don't know if these are causes or symptoms of the larger problem with the liturgy. Our priest has been at the parish for 20+ years, and has just been given another three.
We recently had a visting missioner, someone who is highly respected and well-versed in Vatican II Theology, and HE said (in private conversation with a few people after the mission week had ended) that it was a shame that our liturgy was so bad since the rest of the community was so great.
So ... is there anyone out there who has experienced a significant change in how their parish 'does' liturgy? In increasing reverence and understanding and symbolism and depth to the Mass? Or any ideas how we might go about getting started? I'm certainly not alone in this, but it would be nice to have some concrete suggestions for implementing change before I go and talk with our priest about it!
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Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
Liturgical curmudgeon that I am, I would suggest following the maxim "Say the Black, do the Red." That is, say exactly what is in the missal --no more, no less--, and do the actions prescribed by the rubrics (and, by extension, the GIRM). Let's face it: this is what is expected anyhow, and if you suspect that your liberty-taking with the GIRM is turning some people off, then you might want to look at that.
quote:
It's a university parish, but with a majority of older folks and families. The students don't come to mass at our church, mostly because of how we do liturgy.
If it is indeed the liturgy which is sending the students running, you might try to find out why that is. What do they like about the liturgy at other parishes? Is it more modern or traditional? Is there a different kind of music? If you want to draw in students, then you'd need to know what they are looking for.
Consider also that any attempt to change your way of doing things to attract new (read: younger) members certainly runs the risk of alienating older/long-time members.
[ 06. May 2013, 23:29: Message edited by: Jon in the Nati ]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Drive down the highway and visit the basilica at Notre Dame, or at the very least watch it on iTunes. It is a very well-done Mass.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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loggats
Shipmate
# 17643
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Posted
Glad to hear about the community. Shame about the liturgical abuses, you might write to your bishop about it.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by loggats:
Shame about the liturgical abuses, you might write to your bishop about it.
I hope anyone considering doing that about their own parish reads and prays long and hard with Matthew 18. Never write to the bishop before you've talked to the priest. Given that that's exactly what Inanna is planning on doing, let's see what pointers we can give her.
Firstly, start with an aim rather than with a concrete idea. Is it giving the students something they're comfortable with from their home parishes? Is it restoring a sense of the numinous? Is it about moving the focus? Only when you've figured that out will you know where to start looking for what to do.
Once you've worked that out, think about where you can find liturgy that does that better and pray about each 'thing' they do that you don't that you might like to do. This isn't about figuring out how it mediates the divine to you, it's about marveling that God would reach out to you through this. From that, you can start to get more heady and ask 'why' and 'how' questions.
Then comes the creative work. Would that work for us? If not, is there a way of translating it to our context?
The next question would be, how can we form people liturgically to be able to pray like this? Note that this is a different question than 'how can we teach people what this is?' although answering the second question might be part of answering the first.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I don't believe that you can necessarily separate how a church "does" liturgy from how it does everything else. Perhaps the way the church does liturgy is part of why community and everything else is so good. "Fixing" the liturgy could destroy some of the good parts of your church. Just something to think about...
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
What makes you think it's that that puts the students off. Have you tried asking them?
Get permission from the priest. Find a group of Catholic students, and ask them for their help in making your church more student-friendly. See what happens.
Of course, you may well have done that already and that is how you came to the conclusion that it was how you did the liturgy...
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Good, good post Hart; a lot in there to apply to other churches (not only RC) in similar situations.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't believe that you can necessarily separate how a church "does" liturgy from how it does everything else. Perhaps the way the church does liturgy is part of why community and everything else is so good. "Fixing" the liturgy could destroy some of the good parts of your church. Just something to think about...
You're not a Catholic are you?
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Indifferently
Shipmate
# 17517
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Posted
I think we could improve our liturgy by actually following the rubrics and not reinventing the wheel every couple of weeks.
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and input, which are certainly helping me think this through a little more.
It is definitely the way that the church does the liturgy that prevents students from coming. Somewhat ironically, the church is the "home base" for our Vicariate young adult ministry, which I'm pretty involved in. So students and young adults show up for the once a month mass, and a lot of our other activities are co-ordinated from the church. Talking to them over the years, the response has basically been: "It's a really friendly parish, but I can't stand attending Mass here."
The main complaint is intinction, which was implemented at least 22 years ago by the previous priest. I think it was in response to the priest catching hepatitis or something similar from the chalice.
Indifferently, part of the problem is that these practices aren't "every two weeks", but instead have become "how we do things at <x> Parish". I've been attending for 18 years and nothing has changed. (Oh, except the "posture of prayer" afer the Holy, which was our response to the reminder that kneeling was the appropriate position, about three or four years ago.)
It's an oddly intangible thing, a sense of reverence and numinous at Mass. My hunch is that it does come from a community catetchised to appreciate exactly what we are doing and Who we are receiving. But I'm still struggling with how to get there.
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Up In Smoke
Shipmate
# 10971
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Posted
As an aside, intinction is definitely NOT the way to reduce the possibility of transmission of germs. There are studies to show it is a greater vector for transmission than drinking from the cup. Some at my parish insist on dipping. (We've had no official prohibition of the practice.) I see far too many fingertips and long fingernails enter the wine. I'm then left to raise the cup to my lips with fear and trembling, not at the Presence, but for the bacteria!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
The OP echoes a lot of what I have been thinking. As a retired Anglican priest I attend worship (when I am not doing duty elsewhere) in a local parish church with a lovely, generous, open-minded, thoughtful (=considerate, also =prepared to use their minds), Christian congregation. But liturgy is not one of their priorities nor even on the radar of most of them.
The church has a 'low church' tradition, with many members – including the vicar - coming from an evangelical background. The other full-time priest is more MOTR but has had little liturgical training. Besides myself there is another self-supporting priest; both of us are from a more catholic tradition and used to an ordered liturgy.
Nobody has got any major hang-ups about 'popish practices': I doubt if anyone would walk out if we put on solemn high mass one Sunday. The vicar consciously wants the church to be inclusive of all traditions of anglicanism, but he does not think liturgically and his way, supported vocally or by default by most of the congregation, is to leave the style and often the details of the liturgy to whoever is presiding. (And it is not always the eucharist, hence a 'Service of the Word' can be even more freelance, though I avoid these when possible)
This means that in effect the wheel is reinvented every week. There is no standard posture for prayer, so one week all might stand for the collect, another sit (or 'kneel', but few if any do). And because no-one knows what to do, the leader is inclined to give instructions which distract from the prayerful offering of the liturgy. Some weeks the Gloria will be sung, others said, others omitted altogether. Similarly with the Sanctus (though to be fair, never omitted).
Other details vary from week to week and celebrant to celebrant. Most of them in themselves are insignificant and almost certainly unnoticed by most people. But cumulatively they have the effect of destroying any sense of stability or contemplation within the liturgy, because one is never sure what is going to happen next.
Because of all the positives I listed earlier, and because my wife and I have made some good friends there, we persevere. I tell myself that we hear the Scriptures read (and preached, often very effectively), and offer the sacrifice of the Eucharist and receive our Lord's Body and Blood (whatever the theology of the participants).
I persevere despite the lack of a consistent liturgy, not because of it. I know that an obsessively rigid approach would alienate many, even most, of the congregation. Though small, it has grown noticeably in recent years, and attracts people from all parts of the socio-economic spectrum.
The question is, do they come to church because of its (non-)approach to liturgy, or in spite of it? In my self-critical don't-be-such-a-liturgical-nitpicker moods I think I am the only one to be worried. I don't think many people are consciously concerned about the form of service, but I strongly suspect that if we established a form and style of liturgy that was consistent, we would make it easier for people to enter into prayer at a deeper level, and allow them to concentrate on what matters.
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Angloid -- welcome to my world. I'm a warden, not a (retired) priest, but my parish and my perspective on it are just like yours.
We've actually grown fairly dramatically in the last 6 months -- by 25-30 per cent. Many of the new people are of a more conservative approach (out of Burundi where the Anglican church is highish and the liturgy fairly constrainted). Our PP (now in his mid-60s) is a US "hippy" -- a PhD in Old Testament from Harvard, after his conversion (a dramatic one, in the middle of the Vietnamese war one night) his church was non-denominational/baptist. Very Liberal, A fabulous teacher and preacher, a wonderful pastor and the liturgical nous of a piece of road-kill.
I recently had to tell him I was there despite the liturgy -- I think I saw tears in his eyes, but after two solid years offering suggestions (some of which he picked up) I've decided to focus on what there is that is good (a lot) and find another place to worship from time to time.
John
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
If I was still an RC this would have made my blood boil, not that I feel any better about some of the things described in the OP as an Orthodox either. I've seen places like that and to be honest, if the liturgy is in such a sorry state I would argue one is not obliged to attend such a shambles. I'd take that new missal, use it to prop up wonky tables, find an old missal from the sacristy (that is if it wasn't thrown out) and call in the FSSP. Yeah, and let the bishop know.
[ 08. May 2013, 05:08: Message edited by: Ad Orientem ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
You have a point: it would be senseless to destroy the parish's evident charisms as a community in order to establish good liturgy. But I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
You have a point: it would be senseless to destroy the parish's evident charisms as a community in order to establish good liturgy. But I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy.
Oh, it's possible to have both sides good, of course, but given the choice...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
You have a point: it would be senseless to destroy the parish's evident charisms as a community in order to establish good liturgy. But I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy.
Oh, it's possible to have both sides good, of course, but given the choice...
Nit-picking rubrical perfection may well destroy some of the charisms. But good liturgy is the expression of a community working together to proclaim the gospel and celebrate God's love. So a chaotic liturgy can be an obstacle to that. Hence to some extent it can obscure the charisms.
The liturgical pedant is like a grammatical one; the obsessive concern with 'correctness' gets in the way of good communication. A church with good liturgy is like a fluent linguist: communication flows because there is an intuitive understanding of the language, and occasional 'mistakes' or non-standard expressions are either irrelevant or even, in the context, helpful. Bad liturgy is like the sort of language that is incorrect to the point of misleading.
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't believe that you can necessarily separate how a church "does" liturgy from how it does everything else. Perhaps the way the church does liturgy is part of why community and everything else is so good. "Fixing" the liturgy could destroy some of the good parts of your church. Just something to think about...
You're not a Catholic are you?
I have no idea what this question means. Are Catholics somehow required to believe that the liturgy can be judged as good or bad simply because of certain formal qualities unconnected from the rest of the Christian life?
As to the OP: I'm wondering why everyone presumes that the problem is a matter of ignoring the rubrics. Inanna indicates that the biggest turn-off for students is intinction (presumably because this requires them to receive on the tongue?), which is not a violation of the rubrics. The "friendly-time" bit also doesn't seem to be a violation of the rubrics, as ill-advised as it might be.
I'm guessing that Inanna was trying to get at something different. Some difficult-to-pin-down quality of awe and reverence that mere adherence to rubrics won't fix.
I also expect that many students are simply looking for things to be done the way that they were back home. They are looking for something familiar in the midst of a tumultuous time in their lives. Unfortunately, what is familiar and comforting to one (say, recitation of the rosary before Mass or a steady musical repertoire of St. Louis Jesuits and Marty Haugen) might be bizarre and unsettling to another. It might be a case of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
Lex orandi lex credendi, messes of potage, etc.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I wonder if Proverbs 15:17 has an application here?
Lex orandi lex credendi, messes of potage, etc.
I think there's a sufficient shortage of detail in the OP to know that there's something bad enough in the Lex Orandi for it to be a problem for it to infect the Lex Credendi.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Inanna indicates that the biggest turn-off for students is intinction (presumably because this requires them to receive on the tongue?), which is not a violation of the rubrics. The "friendly-time" bit also doesn't seem to be a violation of the rubrics, as ill-advised as it might be.
I'm guessing that Inanna was trying to get at something different. Some difficult-to-pin-down quality of awe and reverence that mere adherence to rubrics won't fix.
My error. I described it wrongly. It's "self intinction" - people receive the host, then dip it into the chalice, and then consume it. Which is horribly against the rubrics, and, as Up in Smoke pointed out, not particularly hygenic. When we have our monthly young adult Mass, the majority of students receive in the hand.
Your second point is exactly what I was getting at. I am sure there are places of worship where everything is done exactly by the book, down to the last jot and tittle, but the liturgy still seems dry or non-reverent. I absolutely want to celebrate the existing charisms and gifts of the parish ... it just frustrates me when there seems to be so little sense of the reverent and numinous at Mass each weekend.
Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts and comments. I definitely do believe that the community and family I have there is worth staying for. Usually I try each weekend to follow the example of St. Therese of Lisieux, and use the things that annoy me to bring me closer to God in prayer. I have also raised some of these concerns when I was serving on Parish Council, but without much success. I'm hoping that the more I can clarify what it is that is missing, and possibilities for how the parish could make specific changes, then I might be heard.
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Inanna
I have a strange one, but see if you can get a group of people together to pray that the mass may be more filled with a sense of God's presence.
What I am suspicious is that the way the priest does things is only at best 50% of the story, and the way the congregation participates is a good part of the rest. In other words a congregation that is praying for the mass, and that it should be done well, will actually help that to happen.
For some reason, while just reporting to the Bishop will cause the priest in charge concern, going to the almighty with this tends to be more favourably looked on.
Jengie
[ 09. May 2013, 20:00: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Inanna, I think Jengie John is onto something.
If it's a 'great' parish, it must be doing a lot of things right. Be thankful for that. Those that have suggested that if you don't like the way he celebrates Mass, you should shop your priest to the bishop, don't sound very Christian to me.
It may be that though it grates your teeth, and to you, breaks the flow, couples with young families like the family time.
It may also be as much the congregation's fault as the priest's. If they just aren't very reverent, it's a bit much to blame one man alone for that. Getting some of them to pray with you might change how they feel about the service and dramatically affect the atmosphere.
I'm not a Catholic and live in a different country from you, but you could think 'this is where I live; it is where God has put me. So this is the parish where he wants me to be'.
Would it also be a help to think, 'it's still just as much the Mass, whether I like the way it's celebrated or not'?
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I think the self-intinction may well be a major turn off. In my neck of the woods it is the preserve of loosy-goosy Low Church Episcopalians, and those trained by them. A pet peeve of mine is that it is against the rubrics and yet they do not get the message no matter how many times I hit them over the head with the altar edition of the Anglican Missal!
The only RCs around here who would even seem to be likely candidates for doing it would be the plain clothes nuns from the Sisters of Socialism! Since the new RC bishop arrived there has been some tightening up all round, but even before that self-intinction was a no-no as it is definitely a way of introducing biohazards into the Cup.
None of the rest of what you describe would have 10% of the 'ick' factor of that little habit. It is strange what folks - especially 18-22 y.o. folks - fixate on as being turn offs. The cool thing when I was a student was to pass the paten and chalice around and each administered Communion to his/her neighbour. The SCM types thought it was right on, but if I (and several of my friends) got wind of that in advance I (we) would organise a prior engagement at once!
PD
[ 10. May 2013, 03:48: Message edited by: PD ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
PD - haha, apparently SCM hasn't changed much then!
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Inanna, I think Jengie John is onto something.
If it's a 'great' parish, it must be doing a lot of things right. Be thankful for that. Those that have suggested that if you don't like the way he celebrates Mass, you should shop your priest to the bishop, don't sound very Christian to me.
It may be that though it grates your teeth, and to you, breaks the flow, couples with young families like the family time.
It may also be as much the congregation's fault as the priest's. If they just aren't very reverent, it's a bit much to blame one man alone for that. Getting some of them to pray with you might change how they feel about the service and dramatically affect the atmosphere.
I'm not a Catholic and live in a different country from you, but you could think 'this is where I live; it is where God has put me. So this is the parish where he wants me to be'.
Would it also be a help to think, 'it's still just as much the Mass, whether I like the way it's celebrated or not'?
Unfortunately the idea that just bare validity is acceptable for the Mass has been one of the single most destructive forces in Catholic liturgy for the past 40+ years.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Inanna, I think Jengie John is onto something.
If it's a 'great' parish, it must be doing a lot of things right. Be thankful for that. Those that have suggested that if you don't like the way he celebrates Mass, you should shop your priest to the bishop, don't sound very Christian to me.
It may be that though it grates your teeth, and to you, breaks the flow, couples with young families like the family time.
It may also be as much the congregation's fault as the priest's. If they just aren't very reverent, it's a bit much to blame one man alone for that. Getting some of them to pray with you might change how they feel about the service and dramatically affect the atmosphere.
I'm not a Catholic and live in a different country from you, but you could think 'this is where I live; it is where God has put me. So this is the parish where he wants me to be'.
Would it also be a help to think, 'it's still just as much the Mass, whether I like the way it's celebrated or not'?
Unfortunately the idea that just bare validity is acceptable for the Mass has been one of the single most destructive forces in Catholic liturgy for the past 40+ years.
Hear hear!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Unfortunately the idea that just bare validity is acceptable for the Mass has been one of the single most destructive forces in Catholic liturgy for the past 40+ years.
Surely that idea goes back a lot longer than 40 years? I would have thought the long tradition of gabbled and unintelligible low masses goes back long into the pre-Vatican 2 era. Indeed it's what the V2 reforms attempted to address.
If they didn't succeed, and even compounded the problem, the reason must have something to do with the mindset inculcated earlier.
At least that's what I think as a sympathetic outsider.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
What Angloid said. If anything, the past 40 years have had less of that attitude than previously. The down side, of course, is that people came up with all sorts of goofy ways to try to make Mass "meaningful."
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
Posts: 2928 | From: that city in "The Wire" | Registered: Oct 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Indeed. If you want to see what I think is the biggest influence of "valid = fine" is in baptism. Read Cyril of Jerusalem or Ambrose of Milan, and then go and see three surgically precise drops of water out of something smaller than a bird bath, perfectly delivered to not mess up baby's hair of clothes for the photograph.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
I have an Eastern friend who argues the minimalist tendency in the Latins, as he calls us, is down to our having become obsessed with ex opere operato in reaction to Protestantism. I'm just delighted he didn't blame Augustinr.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
Unfortunately the idea that just bare validity is acceptable for the Mass has been one of the single most destructive forces in Catholic liturgy for the past 40+ years.
It may be. It may not be. I can't comment and I'm not going to. But, CL and Ad Orientem, that isn't germane to what I was saying.
If CL's comment is true, it might be a relevant thing to say to a priest, because a priest might be able to do something about it. It might even be relevant for someone to whom you can say, "all right. If you don't like how things are done, seek ordination and do them properly".
However, it's clear from the post that Inanna is not a priest, and I am getting the impression belongs to the 50% of Catholic humans who aren't eligible to become one. Like all laity, she (assuming I'm correct in this) has to put up with Mass as her parish priest provides it.
All I'm suggesting is some ideas that she might be able to do something about, and some ways of thinking that I hope, just might help her feel more nourished spiritually despite things she can't do anything about.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The vicar consciously wants the church to be inclusive of all traditions of anglicanism, but he does not think liturgically and his way, supported vocally or by default by most of the congregation, is to leave the style and often the details of the liturgy to whoever is presiding. (And it is not always the eucharist, hence a 'Service of the Word' can be even more freelance, though I avoid these when possible)
This means that in effect the wheel is reinvented every week. There is no standard posture for prayer, so one week all might stand for the collect, another sit (or 'kneel', but few if any do). And because no-one knows what to do, the leader is inclined to give instructions which distract from the prayerful offering of the liturgy. Some weeks the Gloria will be sung, others said, others omitted altogether. Similarly with the Sanctus (though to be fair, never omitted).
Other details vary from week to week and celebrant to celebrant. Most of them in themselves are insignificant and almost certainly unnoticed by most people..
Describes our church exactly. I'm not sure that it is a bad thing. I quite like it being different every week.
I have my own hangups about some things - in particular anti-climatic or irrelevant notices or asides or mini-sermons or unneccessary explanations when we should just be getting on with things - but that's me. Others dislike what I like. We can't please everyone (& I'm not sure we should be trying to)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Your descriptions of your church always sound familiar to me, Ken. I think you would be quite at home in ours. I suppose my problem is twofold: [1] I am not only a liturgy geek but a retired professional frustrated by not being in charge, and [2] short attention span or something which means I am easily distracted by trivialities and find it hard to focus on the essentials.
Good spiritual discipline I suppose but I pine for a church where someone else does the discipline and I get the benefits!
[and PS] I'm sure we can't please everybody. But the ad hoc approach means in effect that we are trying to please everybody at one time or another. I would rather have a consistent approach that was not necessarily in accordance with my preferences, than never being sure what was happening. At least I'd learn to tolerate what I didn't like, and maybe even grow to like it.
[ 12. May 2013, 09:09: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ad Orientem
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# 17574
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Posted
Of course, the easiest way to do that is to "say the black and do the red", as someone put it earlier. That doesn't mean, of course, that anything less than rubrical perfection is unacceptable, though the Roman Rite does traditionally tend towards a kind of military precision.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
I continue to be grateful to everyone for helping me "flesh out" my thoughts and ideas on this area.
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Of course, the easiest way to do that is to "say the black and do the red", as someone put it earlier. That doesn't mean, of course, that anything less than rubrical perfection is unacceptable, though the Roman Rite does traditionally tend towards a kind of military precision.
Except I'm not even sure that this is what I'm seeking, or what might help our parish. (Though changing from self-intinction would absolutely be a good start). Those people who have touched more on the idea of reverence and transcendence in liturgy - which I think can be missing even when one is doing Mass strictly by the rubrics.
I love Jengie's idea of praying for the community, both personally and perhaps with some of the other folks I know who would like to see liturgy improved at the church. And, as Enoch suggested, I am trying to find ways to be present to the sacrament as much as I can. (I keep having to pray that God removes my liturgical pharisee-ism and judgmental spirit. I get lots of chances to practice each weekend.)
One of my hunches is that most of the community (and possibly even the priest) has a very... well ... 'light' view of Transusbstantiation. If Mass is about receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord, then believing that strongly ought to increase one's reverence during the ceremony, right? It's not as though people don't participate - we always use the line that we have a choir of 200, since the whole community pretty much sings everything, even the bits they're not supposed to ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
So how much of the 'feel' of liturgy comes from the priest/celebrant, and how much from the community gathered?
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Inanna,
Of course, prayer is always an essential part and you're right to bring that up, whether that's praying by yourself or with other people. It's also true, as you say, that following the rubrics by itself doesn't guarantee reverence. However, I also think it's true to say that obedience in the little things leads to obedience in the big things which in turn fosters a sense of reverence. Again, I must stress that I'm not arguing that anything less than rubrical perfection is acceptable because clearly the right spirit must be present first and obsessing about minor errors, unintentional mistakes etc. can lead to a kind of liturgical Pharisaism, to use your own term. Reverence for the liturgy doesn't add any thing to liturgy and only omits things when they're genuinely unable to be done. As for whose responsibility it is, responsibility lies with both the liturgical ministers and the people but first with the liturgical ministers.
Of course, I have my own liturgical bias. In the last days of me being an RC I refused even to attend any kind of NO liturgy. That's just to let you know where I come from. Good luck and we're both agreed, at least, that such things must begin with prayer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Of course, the easiest way to do that is to "say the black and do the red", as someone put it earlier. That doesn't mean, of course, that anything less than rubrical perfection is unacceptable, though the Roman Rite does traditionally tend towards a kind of military precision.
I appreciate that this thread is chiefly about (and of course the OP is entirely about) the way the liturgy is done in the (Roman) Catholic Church. But since the discussion is relevant to several other denominations maybe I could be allowed to point out that Ad O's helpful comment above is less relevant where both 'black' and 'red' are less clearly defined. For example, the C of E's Common Worship makes it very clear how a eucharist should ideally be conducted, but allows a great deal of discretion to the priest as to what words are actually said when, and which actions are essential, which normative, and which optional.
This can make for meaningful worship when the priest is well-formed in the liturgical tradition; less so when (as increasingly, unfortunately) s/he has had insufficient training and experience.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
One of my hunches is that most of the community (and possibly even the priest) has a very... well ... 'light' view of Transusbstantiation.
If you're right about that, then you now have something to work with. This can be the case with people's operative theology, even if their articulated theology is perfectly orthodox. My first instinct is to ask for adoration, or to have it more regularly or more festively if you already have it. You might also think about a Eucharistic procession (Corpus Christi's coming up!).
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
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Posted
Sadly, we don't have adoration, nor do I sense that the community might be open to it. (I have a friend on Parish Council this year and may ask him to raise the idea there to see what kind of reception it gets.) Most references to the Body of Christ during homilies, bulletin articles, etc. are about the community rather than the Eucharist.
I do recall one of the nuns who used to serve at the parish making some remark along the lines of Adoration and Benediction being the equivalent of taking the Thanksgiving turkey out and waving it under people's noses, rather than sitting down and eating it.
I don't know whether self-intinction also detracts from a "higher" Eucharistic theology. I don't like dunking Jesus, personally...
The Young Adult ministry does have a weekly Holy Hour and a rosary night, but at a different parish - still, at least there is the opportunity for this to take place. But I think a lot of the older members of our parish (the Vatican II Generation basically) feel very confused and concerned as to why young adult Catholics would want such a thing.
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All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Inanna:
The Young Adult ministry does have a weekly Holy Hour and a rosary night, but at a different parish - still, at least there is the opportunity for this to take place. But I think a lot of the older members of our parish (the Vatican II Generation basically) feel very confused and concerned as to why young adult Catholics would want such a thing.
Ingrates! How dare they question the hallowed Spirit of Vatican II?
Next they'll be asking us to take the potted plants off the high altar so they can say Mass on it!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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