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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Priest's signature
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regulator reverend
Apprentice
# 16890
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Posted
I have just been priested. I remember my late uncle (a Roman Catholic priest) used to sign his name with a cross after his name signifying his priesthood. I am a CofE priest - would it be appropriate to do the same?? And if so, only when engaged in priestly business (I am an SSM, so work full time). I know I am always a priest, but wonder what the reaction would be if I were to include a cross! Thoughts very welcome.
Posts: 9 | From: Hampshire | Registered: Jan 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
People would think you were a bishop. (Or they'd think you had pretensions to be a bishop. A common signature for a C of E Bishop is e.g. + Carliol (Carlisle) or + Dunelm (Durham).
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Bishops write the cross before their names. Priests write the cross afterwards.
It would look odd in the extreme to me for you to do so in the context of your secular employment, though. I'll bet that, for example, Justin Welby doesn't sign the credit card receipt +Justin Cantuar in the local supermarket.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
I would be hard-pressed to think of an Anglican priest I have known who did NOT sign his name this way in an ecclesiastical context. Nearly all of them did, even when writing personal notes to me, though that was because of our church connection. Even when writing their initials in books, papers, etc., the cross followed the name. When one became a bishop, the cross moved to the position before the name, as others have mentioned.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
In my part of the CofE I have never seen this used. I have to say among my clerical friends, admittedly mostly of a low church persuasion, it would probably be laughed at as pretentious I'm afaid...
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In my part of the CofE I have never seen this used. I have to say among my clerical friends, admittedly mostly of a low church persuasion, it would probably be laughed at as pretentious I'm afraid...
That's a recommendation, right?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
There is a pond difference on this one, in my experience. A Anglican/Episcopal priest signing himself John Smith+ is perfectly OK in the USA, but would get funny looks in the UK. If anyone does it in the UK, I would imagine they would be around the 97th percentile of Spikiness. It is a bit like the term Father. In the UK you need to be in pretty Spikey circles before you hear the priest addressed as Father, but in the USA it is generally used in Anglican/Episcopal circles. In my home parish we never addressed the priest as Father, and we were definitely on the sunny side of Central.
PD
[ 01. July 2013, 19:48: Message edited by: PD ]
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
But I think a CofE bishop would usually sign only with his first name, or with that and the name of his see (in Latin).
Although I have heard of this custom, I never seen a priest's signature plus cross, and wonder if it is done with both names or only the first.
I suppose also they have to be careful it is not mistaken for a kiss.
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think PD is right only more so. I know lots of C of E priests who answer to 'Father', but I have never come across a single one who signs his (let alone her) name in that way. Maybe because one can know people quite well but never see their signature. But if there are priests in the UK who do this they are not only spiky but eccentric in the extreme. Which is no criticism of those for whom it is the normal custom.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
In official ecclesiatical capacity such as writing letters to a parish or a columm in a parish newsletter, Episcopalian priests often do put a cross after their name, but several priests I know don't, since they find it a bit precious. ALL bishops in my experience put a cross before their name.
Posts: 197 | From: Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
I suppose also they have to be careful it is not mistaken for a kiss.
So that would mean
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that priest wasn't
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Oops! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
(Seriously, I've never seen this done in the CofE.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Anglican bishops started using a cross before their names about 1900-1920. They also tended to use their initials rather than their Christian names in full. These days even Low Church bishops use the prenominal cross.
One interesting quirk of style is that American bishops tend to sign
+John Smith,
Bishop of (the Diocese of) Podunk
whereas the British and Irish style would be
+John Podunk
The American style is clser to what would be the Irish RC style of signing oneself as a bishop, which is fairy-snuff. It also has a certain advantage when dioceses are usually named after states rather than cities.
Scotland has an interesting mix of styles. Orkney, Moray, Ross, Caithness, Galloway, Argyle and The Isles are all regional names, whilst the Glasgow, Edinburgh, Brechin, Dunkeld, Dunblane, St Andrew's and Aberdeen are named for the cities where the Bishop had his see. The sees named after the area they serve tend to be on the Gaelic speaking and Norse influenced side of Scotland, whilst the town names are in the Scots speaking side of things.
BTW, the Diocese of the Isles took over the Sodor portion of Sodor and Man after the Isle of Man came under English Suzereignty c.1331. The old Bishops of Sodor and Man were amphibious beasties to say the least!
+PD
[ 02. July 2013, 00:58: Message edited by: PD ]
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I have nothing to add about crosses in signatures (it's been pretty well covered), but I want to say Congratulations, regulator reverend!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
The minute number of English Anglican priests who have added a cross to their name that I have come across have, all three of them, been members of the SCP. Make of that what you will.
Thurible
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
If I did it, people would assume I'd forgotten to get my wife to sign as well.
Custard+MrsCustard
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
That reminds me of a friend's comment on the inscription in his ordination bible, which he assumed was meant to be signed by the Holy Spirit: "ordained by me + Michael"
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
If I did it, people would assume I'd forgotten to get my wife to sign as well.
Custard+MrsCustard
Perhaps the + would just make them think one of you could not read and write.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Most of our priest's written communication is on FB; I'm trying to imagine him signing a + at the end but I just get the giggles.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Common to see here both on written notes and on emails and Facebook - and, I think, becoming more common.
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Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I've never seen a preistly +, but our CofE shack is so low it's geothermal, so that's to be expected.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The old Bishops of Sodor and Man were amphibious beasties to say the least!
+PD
Very true, and they still put the ancient claims to Episcopal jurisdiction every time they sign as +Robert does Sodor as Mannin
Also just to say to all fellow Manxies on occasion of tomorrow:
Grayse nyn Jiarn Yeesey Creest, as graih Yee, as sheshaght gherjoil y Spyrryd Noo dy row marin ooilley er son dy bragh.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Makes you look like a bit of a poseur doesn't it? What do you need to say or record that you're a priest - surely your life should demonstrate it?
On a letter or document it can smack a bit of "you might not do this for anyone else - but I'm a priest so ....."
[ 05. July 2013, 07:48: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
...and how dare those upjumped barbers that call themselves "doctors" append M.D. to their names? What are they trying to do, make something of themselves? It should be obvious to anyone what they are, if they're any good at being physicians.
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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
...and how dare those upjumped barbers that call themselves "doctors" append M.D. to their names? What are they trying to do, make something of themselves? It should be obvious to anyone what they are, if they're any good at being physicians.
The connection is traditionally between barbers and surgeons, as a good deal of blood letting was involved in both trades in former times. In the UK, surgeons are still 'Mr.' but append the relevant professional qualifications to their names when having the brass plaque made.
PD
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Right UK usage. You need to distinguish professional status from academic qualification from specialism. Undergraduate medical training aims to give a good grounding in all areas of medical practice both academically and professionally.
MD is Doctor of Medicine, a higher professional doctoral degree. It is not the same as PhD as it requires an amount of professional activity as well as research activity. I suspect it is normally only undertaken once an individual is a consultant.
If you refer to someone as Doctor that means they have MBChB or MBBS. They do not need MD to be referred to as Dr X.
If you refer to them as Mr that means they are a consultant. You do not need a MD to be a consultant. I am pretty sure you have to pass the exams for the relevant medical speciality but I think you also need to get a job at that seniority. It is a rank of seniority within the profession.
A surgeon is someone who has surgery as their specialism. That is they have passed the professional exams to belong to the college of surgeons. There are several specialisms in the NHS. Surgeons are not necessarily senior to people in other specialisms.
Jengie
[ 05. July 2013, 20:08: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Also just to say to all fellow Manxies on occasion of tomorrow:
Grayse nyn Jiarn Yeesey Creest, as graih Yee, as sheshaght gherjoil y Spyrryd Noo dy row marin ooilley er son dy bragh.
Sounds interesting. Could you translate this? And what is the occasion?
[ 05. July 2013, 23:09: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Also just to say to all fellow Manxies on occasion of tomorrow:
Grayse nyn Jiarn Yeesey Creest, as graih Yee, as sheshaght gherjoil y Spyrryd Noo dy row marin ooilley er son dy bragh.
Sounds interesting. Could you translate this? And what is the occasion?
Well, I'm guessing it's Manx, and that "Yeesey Creest" is Jesus Christ, "Spyrryd" is Spirit, which makes the whole thing
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore." It's from the Manx BCP, isn't it?
"sheshaght gherjoil" for fellowship is interesting: "joyful company"?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
July 5th is Tynwald Day on the Isle of Man. It is the day on which all new Acts of Tynwald (he Manx Parliament) are read in English and Manx from Tynwald Hill at St John's in the Parish of Kirk German, and thus pass into law.
Tynwald derives from the old Norse Thingvollr which is an assembling place. It first met under Godred I (King Orry) King of Man in the 10th century, and has been in continuous existence every since. The Lord of Man (the Queen) is usually represented by the Governor, and the day begins with a special Church service in St John's Chapel. The governmental part of the proceedings are held on an artificial mound called Tynwald Hill. It is thought that St John's was chosen because it is where the old trackways from across the island, and from north to south met. The modern Ballasalla to Ramsey via Foxdale and Cronk-y-voddy road follows the old north-south path, whilst the Douglas to Peel road follows the old east-west trackway.
The date was June 24th - St John Baptist's day - until 1752 when the mainland went over to the Gregorian Calendar. The Manx kind of dithered about the new, and Tynwald Day remained on its old date, which is, of course 5th July N.S.. Business sessions of Tynwald were held at Castletown until 1867, and then Government House was moved to Douglas, which, from a slow start in the 15th century had become the largest town in the mid-18th century.
PD
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Also just to say to all fellow Manxies on occasion of tomorrow:
Grayse nyn Jiarn Yeesey Creest, as graih Yee, as sheshaght gherjoil y Spyrryd Noo dy row marin ooilley er son dy bragh.
Sounds interesting. Could you translate this? And what is the occasion?
Well, I'm guessing it's Manx, and that "Yeesey Creest" is Jesus Christ, "Spyrryd" is Spirit, which makes the whole thing
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with us all evermore." It's from the Manx BCP, isn't it?
"sheshaght gherjoil" for fellowship is interesting: "joyful company"?
Yes, it is from the Manx BCP, which was produced about 1760. In Bishop Wilson's time (1698-1755) most of the clergy had their own MS translations of the service or put it into Manx on the fly. Only the Apostles' Creed and certain other formulars including the Lord's Prayer had achieved an accepted form in Manx, thanks to Bishop Rutter's efforts in the 17th century.
As far as I can work out the last clergyman to preach regularly in Manx was Archdeacon Kewley who died in 1932. The decline of Manx was down to three factors - tourism, Methodism, and the education system which favoured English. In the 1830s most parishes outside of Douglas and Ramsey alternated English and Manx, but the percentage of Manx services fell gradually over the next century. Archdeacon Kewley at Kirk Andreas was about the last parish with regular Manx services, with the other being St Peter's Chapel, Cregneesh in Rushen Parish.
However, with the reemergence of Manx, occasional services are once again being held in the language. The joke used to be that the last places Manx was to be heard regularly was amongst the old women in the country chapels and the old men in rural pubs.
PD
[ 06. July 2013, 03:59: Message edited by: PD ]
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
However, with the reemergence of Manx, occasional services are once again being held in the language. The joke used to be that the last places Manx was to be heard regularly was amongst the old women in the country chapels and the old men in rural pubs.
Of course, I'm sitting here in Chicago wondering whether actual time spent on the Isle of Man would help with understanding this compilation.
[ 06. July 2013, 04:08: Message edited by: Oblatus ]
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
However you sign your name, always do sign the service register if you officiate, preside, or preach. Thus saith the sacristan, anyway.
In this corner of the Episcopal Church, I've noticed that older priests tend to sign (the church register) with the cross after their name, and younger/newer priests don't. That would imply that here in northern California, anyway, it might be a practice that's falling out of favor among Episcopalians.
Which says almost nothing to the OP, but there ya go.
Congratulations, though, regulator reverend!
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Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by PD:
quote:
whereas the British and Irish style would be
+John Podunk
Actually the 'Irish' style at present seems to be to write your name followed by the diocese in which you are in when you write it. For instance, the Bishop of Cork (whose name is Paul) would write:
+Paul Cork
I have no idea when that started, but I can't recall seeing any Bishop sign in any other way.
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Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Um, isn't that the same thing as the standard English style, referred to above? (e.g. +Peter Bath & Wells for the Bishop of Bath & Wells)? Or am I missing something here?
Years ago, when David Sheppard, formerly England cricket captain, was Bishop of Woolwich, a friend of my mother's took the opportunity of an episcopal visit to the parish to get him to sign a cricket bat to be raffled for the Scouts. He was apparently a bit disappointed that Sheppard signed it as + David Woolwich - that is, in his episcopal rather than his as it were cricketing capacity.
[ 10. July 2013, 10:14: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
I heard a (probably apocryphal) story about a bishop and his wife signing into a hotel. The bishop wrote (picking arbitrary names for the telling) "John Barchester and Mrs Joan Smith". The clerk saw what had been written, and said: "I'm sorry sir, we are not that sort of hotel".
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
I spent 5 years transcribing the parish registers of Births, Confirmations, Marriages and Deaths to a computer in my local parish. The most common signature was pp (or curé). Visiting priests wrote out their permission to officiate (especially true for baptisms when Great Uncle Joe was dragged out to officiate at Joey's or Josephine's baptism) and signed their name (followed by their order, if applicable)
Bishops (Diocesan or visiting) were the only ones to use a cross in their signatures in any position. This was true even when a bishop acted as a parish priest for several months following the sudden (and unexpected) of the parish priest.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I heard a (probably apocryphal) story about a bishop and his wife signing into a hotel. The bishop wrote (picking arbitrary names for the telling) "John Barchester and Mrs Joan Smith". The clerk saw what had been written, and said: "I'm sorry sir, we are not that sort of hotel".
The version I first heard was of the Bishop of Barchester and Mrs Smith signing in at a hotel in France, and the clerk murmuring, "Ah... monseigneur..."
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by PD:
quote:
whereas the British and Irish style would be
+John Podunk
Actually the 'Irish' style at present seems to be to write your name followed by the diocese in which you are in when you write it. For instance, the Bishop of Cork (whose name is Paul) would write:
+Paul Cork
I have no idea when that started, but I can't recall seeing any Bishop sign in any other way.
Since at least the 1920s. Gregg usually signed +John Dublin, but I have also seen +John D & G. Before his first translation he seems to have preferred +J.A.F. Ossory, or +J.A.F. Ferns.
The Irish RC style used to be
+Patrick Murphy OP,
Bishop of Ferns
though I have noticed a little bit of variance on that recently.
PD
[ 10. July 2013, 15:29: Message edited by: PD ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Actually the 'Irish' style at present seems to be to write your name followed by the diocese in which you are in when you write it. For instance, the Bishop of Cork (whose name is Paul) would write:
+Paul Cork
I have no idea when that started, but I can't recall seeing any Bishop sign in any other way. [/QUOTE]
I can see some justification (though I don't like the custom) of English bishops signing in that way, since they can claim territorial jurisdiction. But how can an unestablished church justify it?
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Presumably he still has jurisdiction over his own diocese?
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Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
However you sign your name, always do sign the service register if you officiate, preside, or preach. Thus saith the sacristan, anyway.
I wholeheartedly agree! Nothing bugs me more then having to chase down a Priest for their signature for the book, made all the more embarrassing when it is the Bishop's signature which is required!
Thank you to all those who have an amazing knowledge of the IoM on here for answering the question, it is the Grace, taught at my mother's knee, along with the Lord's Prayer, and along with the collect is the only part of the Tynwald Church service in Manx.
Being a Welshman, and therefore knowledgeable of the CiW policy of bilingualism, +Robert has been rather good with looking to push Manx language services again, but I guess it will take time for them to make a real appearance outside of bits and pieces here and there.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
However you sign your name, always do sign the service register if you officiate, preside, or preach. Thus saith the sacristan, anyway.
I wholeheartedly agree! Nothing bugs me more then having to chase down a Priest for their signature for the book, made all the more embarrassing when it is the Bishop's signature which is required!
In this situation the advice to us from our area dean was that it was not necessary for the visiting clergy to sign, we could write the name of the officiant in. As long as the register recorded who took the service, it was ok.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
However you sign your name, always do sign the service register if you officiate, preside, or preach. Thus saith the sacristan, anyway.
I wholeheartedly agree! Nothing bugs me more then having to chase down a Priest for their signature for the book, made all the more embarrassing when it is the Bishop's signature which is required!
Thank you to all those who have an amazing knowledge of the IoM on here for answering the question, it is the Grace, taught at my mother's knee, along with the Lord's Prayer, and along with the collect is the only part of the Tynwald Church service in Manx.
Being a Welshman, and therefore knowledgeable of the CiW policy of bilingualism, +Robert has been rather good with looking to push Manx language services again, but I guess it will take time for them to make a real appearance outside of bits and pieces here and there.
Part of the problem is the last first language Manx speaker died in 1973. Those who speak Manx with reasonable dexterity today - about 1500-1800 - all do so as a second language. However, I would have thought that a monthly Low Mass in Manx using the 1662, or Evensong without sermon would be do-able. I would even like to go so far as to suggest Braddan Old Church as the venue as it is reasonably central for the whole island without having to go into the middle of Doolish.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Actually the 'Irish' style at present seems to be to write your name followed by the diocese in which you are in when you write it. For instance, the Bishop of Cork (whose name is Paul) would write:
+Paul Cork
I have no idea when that started, but I can't recall seeing any Bishop sign in any other way.
I can see some justification (though I don't like the custom) of English bishops signing in that way, since they can claim territorial jurisdiction. But how can an unestablished church justify it? [/QUOTE]
Their bishops still have territorial jurisdiction; it's just that the state has nothing to do with it (note that in many places the bishop's jurisdiction preceded the state's existence). I believe that CSI bishops took the step of being named bishops in (name of diocese) to underline the concept of service over possession.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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