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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: BCP Services in Scotland
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Would anyone know of an episcopal church in Fife, Perth/Dundee, or Edinburgh region that celebrates according to the Scottish prayer book 1929 or any other classical prayerbook? Thank you.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
St Saviour, Dundee, do MP from the 1929 BCP, but the High Mass is 1970 Scottish Liturgy.
St John's, Perth had 8am HC from the 1929 BCP in the English form, and then had sung Matins once a month from the BCP, and like EP. However, they had just changed incumbants, and I got the feeling he was about to shout 'all change.'
BCP EP is the norm at St Mary's cathedral when the service is sung. They used to do 1929 BCP at 8am, but I think it was the ECO not the SL.
It is very difficulty to find the 1929 Scottish Liturgy anywhere. Most BCP HCs seem to be the English Communion Office, and the 1970 Scottish Liturgy seems to be preferred for the traditional language version of the Scottish Rite.
PD
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Thank you, Archbishop, for this. Looks like I'll opt for St Saviour. Btw, I once had a look at a 1970 Liturgy booklet - seemed to be a form of English Missal liturgy. A pity they don't use any of their BCPs for all sacraments.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The story goes that a committee of priests decided to do a quick fix on both the existing Scottish Eiscopal Eucharistic liturgies. The basic complaint about the 1929 Scottish Liturgy was that incorporating the Prayer for the Church into the Canon made it too tedious, and they made all the usual complaints about the English form. An old priest friend of mine who was a curate at Inverness Cathedral c.1950 used to joke that the Canon of the (1929) Scottish Liturgy was punctuated by the sound of heads hitting the backs of the pews as folks fell asleep.
What basically happened was that the Penitential section was moved the beginning of Mass; the Prayer for the Church to before the Offertory, and some judicious abridgements were allowed in the Canon. Oh, and of course, the Gloria was moved up front. It is a very successful reworking of the 1929 Scottish Liturgy along the lines of Dix - and commonsense!
There are a few places that still do 1929, but it is usually off-peak, and mainly in the old Episcopalian triangle - Aberdeen, Peterhead, Inverness.
PD
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Thank you very much. And would you happen to know the difference between the 1970 and the 1982 rites?
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The 1982 Scottish Liturgy is modern language and multiple choice. It is rather highly thought of by Litniks because it is a bit more stylish than the C of E 1980 and 2000 attempts at a modern language liturgy.
The most noticeable difference is the Peace being right at the beginning as the preferred option, which I rater like.
PD
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I spotted a brain fart further up the page - it is St. Salvador's, not St Saviour's. Duh! Mattins is at 10.15am, and High Mass at 11.00am.
St Mary's Cathedral states that their 8.00am Eucharist is 1929 BCP but does not say whether the English Order or the Scottish Liturgy.
St Michael and All Saints', Edinburgh, also used the 1970 Scottish Liturgy for their High Mass. I am not sure what rite their Sunday Low Mass follows, but it was 1970 last time I checked.
PD
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
The 1929, 1970 and 1982 liturgies are all available for download from the Scottish Episcopal Church website, here.
All the SEC churches with which I'm familiar use 1970 or 1982.
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Thank you both. I sometimes attend a church in st-andrews which uses the 1970 rite with full catholic ceremonial. A very nice welcoming community. They celebrate versus populum though. The music is beautiful - sometimes the finest of Anglican choral music. But stil l I find the 1970 wanting in several aspects. On sundays they do have BCP said evensong which is unfortunately poorly attended.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The 1970 Rite is pretty good, but like you say, it has it moments. You could always try contact the Scottish version of the Prayer Book Society. I will keep nosing around and see if I hear of anything that might be up your alley.
I like the 1929 Scottish Liturgy, but it is not very 'Dix Compliant.' This means means at least two generations of priests have been taught that it is defective. I would have thought there was a parish in Dundee that did 1929 at a reasonable hour, but I have not turned anything up yet.
Glad to hear your shack by the Castle is still doing Evensong. St Salvador's seems to have given up!
PD
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
If you're after catholic and ad orientem celebration, you could try St Mary Magdalene in Dundee. The Sung Eucharist is admittedly 1970, but from the look of the "worship" page it may be east facing.
I know two former curates from there, who are now in the Diocese of Glasgow and Galloway. I would describe them both as being pretty Catholic, and the churches at which they now serve have the kit for doing Solemn Benediction as we've have to borrow from them in order to celebrate Corpus Christi. If you're over in Glasgow, I would suggest St Bride Hyndland, which is again a very catholic celebration of 1970, ad orientem. The music isn't that good though.
[ 14. July 2013, 14:14: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
St Mary Magdalen is not historcally an Anglo-Catholic parish. It was built for the Irish protestants used to be Lowish and Liberal. It seems to have come up a bit, but until a few years ago it used to have Matins as the main service at least once a month. BTW, the building used to be a Catholic and Apostolic (Irvingite) Church years ago.
St Salvador's is the traditional-ish Anglo-Catholic place in Dundee, but again, it is 1970 Liturgy, and not a lot different from where Gottschalk goes now except in that it leans towards the F-i-F end of the spectrum without committing itself, and is 'ad orientem.'
PD
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
Fair 'nuff. Can't say I'm familiar with Dundee, but just thought I'd throw it into the mix as it's where the most Catholic priest I know locally was based...
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Thank you both Kingsfold and PD. There's something weird (not in bad way - perhaps, it would be less so in Aberdeenshire) with the experience of the via anglicana in Scotland - a case of historical and theological dissonance, as it were.
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Gottschalk
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wheelie racer
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# 13854
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Posted
The two episky churchs in St Andrews do, at different times of the month
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
Thank you both Kingsfold and PD. There's something weird (not in bad way - perhaps, it would be less so in Aberdeenshire) with the experience of the via anglicana in Scotland - a case of historical and theological dissonance, as it were.
I can relate to what you are saying. I used to have the same problem with those parishes in Ireland that had shifted away from the old Irish way of doing things, and were running around in coloured garb.
However, I think more specifically it is where you are. One parish is broad church and fits the old Scottish jibe about being "the English Church" and the other is AffCath leaning, which feels a bit funny in a totally different way possibly because it used to be an absolute screamer of a Spikey parish, and has not quite grown into where it is now.
My home parish in Lincolnshire is AffCath these days, and about as English as you can get. I always experience a certain degree of cognative dissonance when I am there. I was more comfortable when it was "the sunny side of fuzzy Central." The rest of my family has been boycotting it since they got rid of Matins in 1972!
PD
[ 16. July 2013, 00:20: Message edited by: PD ]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Just popping to say that some years ago I attended a Scottish Liturgy 1970 service - said, but with some fine English Hymnal hymns! - and celebrant in cassock-alb and stole. I thoroughly enjoyed it - dignified, yet not stuffy, despite the trad language.
The church - a small estate chapel, with just one Eucharist a month - was packed (including several young families). I was told that, on the other three Sundays, most of them went to the Kirk in the nearest town!
Ian J.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I am a big fan of the 1970 Scottish Liturgy, mainly because it works. What surprised me, given that I have run into it in churches that were anywhere from MOTR-Low to Anglo-Catholic was the fact everyone followed it as printed. The Churchmanship differences were confined to music and ceremonial. For example, the A-C parish I visited simply added the old minor propers in the appropriate places, whilst the MOTR-Low shack just stuck with singing something out of HA&MR.
I found pretty much the same attitude with the 1982 Scottish Liturgy as well. The window dressing changes, but the rite is regarded as inviolate by at least 9 out 10 priests.
It sure beats the amount of pratting about with the Mass to express one's churchmanship that one gets in England!
PD
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Is that not more or less the way the liturgy is used in TEC?
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Yes and No.
The "yes" is that most places are by the book - it helps that like Scotland the BCP is catholic-leaning. Rite One is a bit more common in A-C circles than in MOTR.
The "no" is there is a certain minority of fidgetty MOTR parishes that feel that they have to use every single supplementary resource the GenCon authorizes and change the liturgy frequently.
The other 'no'is the charismatic minority who use "Rite 3" even though that is only supposed to be used off peak.
PD
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
@PD
That's true. All 1970 services I've been are scrupulously by the book - only vestment, music, ceremonial and ritual acts differ. Lots of crossings and bowing at the Holy Name. Which is not a bad thing but it can be awkward at times.
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Gottschalk
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kingsfold
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# 1726
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Posted
1970 is not always entirely strictly by the book...
I know of one congregation locally who use both the embolism and the prayer for peace within the Lords Prayer. And certainly at the weekday mass they don't use the form of intercession in the grey book (if memory serves, their mass booklet has two forms of intercession).
And a different church has the congregation join the celebrant for part of the prayer of consecration (I think it's the "and her we offer and humbly present unto thee O Lord"). They too have two forms of intercession.
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
All Saints (I nearly always say All Souls in conversation) has lovely music - some Merbecke setting for the ordinary and seasonal "office" hymns from the English Hymnal, and other motets and pieces of choral music. And they do cense a lot.
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Gottschalk
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Ah some things do not change, All Saints used incense excessively during my time at St Andrews. So thick was it on one occasion that at the concert after worship the whole proceedings were covered in a light fog. There is of course also St Andrews, St Andrews. It was held to be lower in my day but that is the difference between the blue white of the candle flame tip and the red-orange of the inner flame.
Jengie
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
St Andrew's was at one time pretty middle stump, and still has the reputation, if not exactly the reality. My impression was that it was MOTR-High the one time I went there. I was deliberately avoiding All Saints, which I had been told was the place to go. With the set I knew at college that usually meant more Catholic than the Pope, and that whatever they gave as the second preference parish would be the better bet from my POV.
Of the other well-known Anglo-Catholic churches in Scotland I found both Old St Paul's, Edinburgh, and St Michael and All Angels, Inverness a bit ordinary. In fairness to OSP it was midweek, but I found it very bland modern Catholic, though the building is very nice. Hopefully that was a phase they were going through, and even at that time they raised their game approciably on Sundays. St Michael's was typical modern Catholic - with all that entails both good and bad.
St Salvador's, Dundee, and St Margaret's, Aberdeen were both a lot more interesting. The favoured the older (1970) Liturgy and a simplified, not modernized ceremonial. However, I should perhaps warn you that I have a slight preference for slightly scruffy, somewhat traditional Anglo-Catholic parishes.
I have never made it to St Michael and All Saints, or St Bride's, Hyndland and probably never will. For a start I tend to avoid staying in the central belt, and secondly, I have moved away from Anglo-Catholicism over the last ten years or so.
PD
[ 18. July 2013, 23:59: Message edited by: PD ]
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Indeed, and they do have a Blessed Sacrament Chapel but I'm not sure they're on the papalist end - if such a thing exists now at all in the CofE or SEC. Btw, on wednesdays in term time, the Rector of All Saints- who is also one of the university chaplains- presides at choral Evensong in college chapel. This service is BCP. There is also sung Compline on thursdays at St Leonard's chapel. Outwith term time - it is predictably bleak liturgy-wise.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I think it might amuse you to know that I once mortified my congregation here by celebrating the 1764 Scottish Liturgy as it would have been when Seabury was in Scotland in 1784. It seems they were not too keen on the black gown, bands, and leavened bread - not to mention no cross or candles!
However, the Scottish Epiclesis, whether it be 1764, 1912, or 1929 is vastly superior to anything the PECUSA came up with. Praying that the Holy Spirit may sanctify us and make the Bread and Wine His Body and Blood is just so right.
PD
[ 23. July 2013, 07:01: Message edited by: PD ]
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
However, the Scottish Epiclesis, whether it be 1764, 1912, or 1929 is vastly superior to anything the PECUSA came up with. Praying that the Holy Spirit may sanctify us and make the Bread and Wine His Body and Blood is just so right.
Agreed.
Another characteristic item of the Scottish liturgies that I appreciate is the acclamation after the Gospel:
Thanks be to thee, O Lord, for this thy glorious Gospel.
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
@PD
Ditto on Scottish epiclesis. BTW, have you ever north-ended? I doubt whether people of my degeneration - late 20's, say - would have ever seen such.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Yes I am very familiar with the practice of north ending. As a matter of fact, my first charge (1996-99) was a north ending gig, so I would guess that I have done so a couple of hundred times. I also assisted as a deacon in north ending parishes a few times, and we did the old 'Lion and Unicorn' bit.
I also did the "corner boy" thing a few times when helping out in Ireland.
PD
[ 24. July 2013, 06:07: Message edited by: PD ]
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
Surplice, scarf (and bands) for north-ending, I presume? It would be funny to have a priest in roman vestments north-ending, or ridiculous, depending on the point of view.
A couple of questions:
1. Was north-ending ever practised north by Scottish episcopalians?
2. I see that the ACC uses the Anglican Missal, and have a pew version "The People's Anglican Missal" - is it, notwithstanding the name, all roman? If so what form of the Holy Week offices do they use - Pius XII or pre-Pius XII?
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Gottschalk
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
I've long thought north ending to make far more liturgical sense than westward.
Thurible
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
I seem to recollect that the 'Wee Bookies' make no mention of the position of the celebrant. They may have north ended or they may have followed the example of the Presbys and celebrated facing the people. No old altar/pulpit arrangements survive in the SEC, so we are dependant on a few old photographs of places like St Paul's Aberdeen (demolished 1865) was probably North end, as was St James. The old pew plan for St Andrew's Church, Aberdeen suggests central pulpit with the Table in front and beneath, and celebrant probably at the north end.
Those congregations using the English order would have north ended. However, the changeover for north end to eastward in Scotland is more complete in Scotland than it is in England. I very much doubt if more than a half dozen SEC places would still have been north ending in Scotland after 1920. The last hold outs were probably the 'English Episcopal' congregations - St Silas, Glasgow; St Thomas Edinburgh (now Gyle); St James, Aberdeen; and Trinity, Dunoon. The sort of folks who were north enders in the Church of England were probably Evangelical leaning members of the Kirk in Scotland so the same series of circumstances did not apply in the Land of the Wee Midgie.
PD
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
...the 'Wee Bookies' ...
sounds like the sort of place you'd expect to see Alex Salmond sidling out of late on a Saturday afternoon, stuffing a roll of twenties into his back pocket.
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
...the 'Wee Bookies' ...
sounds like the sort of place you'd expect to see Alex Salmond sidling out of late on a Saturday afternoon, stuffing a roll of twenties into his back pocket.
Haha! Good one. ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The "Wee Bookies" were, in fact, printed Communion services in circulation among the episcopalians.
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
PD's description is fairly accurate of the north-ending which was common in Ireland in the 1970s. I have never seen it anywhere else, although I gather that a very few Canadian churches continued with it until about then.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
In Toronto, Little Trinity was said to be one of the last holdouts. I've only ever seen it "Not In Communion," at the R.E. shack in Hamilton (on a first Sunday of the month, natch).
[ 25. July 2013, 16:27: Message edited by: LQ ]
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
...the 'Wee Bookies' ...
sounds like the sort of place you'd expect to see Alex Salmond sidling out of late on a Saturday afternoon, stuffing a roll of twenties into his back pocket.
Haha! Good one.
The "Wee Bookies" were, in fact, printed Communion services in circulation among the episcopalians.
They generally started at the Offertory, with the first part of the service down to that point coming from 1662, though strange things could happen with the Collect for the Monarch, and they were not adverse to adding/substituting the Summary to/for the Decalogue as long ago as the 1760s. That's where the PECUSA got it from for their 1789 BCP. Seabury issued a short lived wee Bookie for Connecticut when he got back from Scotland which may be a good indication of what the Scots were up to c.1785.
PD
[ 25. July 2013, 18:13: Message edited by: PD ]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
In Toronto, Little Trinity was said to be one of the last holdouts. I've only ever seen it "Not In Communion," at the R.E. shack in Hamilton (on a first Sunday of the month, natch).
As I believe I've said before, in the mid-late 80s when I was at Trinity Cambridge, the chapel used to have a north-end communion at 10pm on a Monday night- chaplain in IIRC cassock, surplice and scarf, though again IIRC he wore vestments on a Sunday morning. I have no idea why they had a communion at that time of night or why it was north end, but it was a very affecting service.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
Surplice, scarf (and bands) for north-ending, I presume? It would be funny to have a priest in roman vestments north-ending, or ridiculous, depending on the point of view.
A couple of questions:
1. Was north-ending ever practised north by Scottish episcopalians?
2. I see that the ACC uses the Anglican Missal, and have a pew version "The People's Anglican Missal" - is it, notwithstanding the name, all roman? If so what form of the Holy Week offices do they use - Pius XII or pre-Pius XII?
The Anglican Missal is pre-Pius XII but allows the Easter Vigil to be shortened to four reading which is what a lot of ACC folk do. I have to say that having sat through 'the lot' on the evening of Holy Saturday I would prefer to keep the 12 lesson version to an earlier hour than 8pm!
PD
[ 29. July 2013, 07:30: Message edited by: PD ]
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
The Anglican Missal is pre-Pius XII but allows the Easter Vigil to be shortened to four reading which is what a lot of ACC folk do. I have to say that having sat through 'the lot' on the evening of Holy Saturday I would prefer to keep the 12 lesson version to an earlier hour than 8pm!
PD
A remnant of ancient mattins? I've met many missal Anglicans who are not in the least papalists but who adhere strongly to the 1958 EM - which strikes me as weird - so do the Western Rite Antiochenes, if I'm not mistaken. But then, things tend to become tricky when one enters Missal-land Anglicanism or Western Riteism.
On another note, I always thought that using the Mozarabic Canon in the BCP would be quite interesting but with one major qualification: it is addressed not to the Father, but to the Son (Adesto adesto Iesu bone pontifex...) but this is just a thought.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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Posted
The Mozarabic Liturg is interesting for a half dozen reasons, not least of which is that it is a late survivor of the old Gallican liturgies. Another branch of the Gallican tradition would have been used in Ireland until the 12th C. and in Gaelic speaking Scotland up to the time of St Margaret the Romanizer in the late 11th century. She, poor love, was an AEtheling, and therefore looked to Rome.
However, I am not so enthusiastic about such things as I am the Scottish Episcopal tradition of yesteryear. IMHO, over here in the States we have done it a certain amount of violence. The US 1928 BCP is somewhat inferior to the Scottish BCP of the next year. However, it avoids the worst problems of the English BCP. Kind of a draw, really.
I must have a really detailed look through the 1929 again. I know it has always favourably impressed me, but that is because it is in tune with my Old High Church theology. But why?
PD
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Knopwood
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
On another note, I always thought that using the Mozarabic Canon in the BCP would be quite interesting but with one major qualification: it is addressed not to the Father, but to the Son (Adesto adesto Iesu bone pontifex...) but this is just a thought.
This little gem is derived from Mozarabic sources, albeit tweaked to address the Father.
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Gottschalk
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# 13175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
On another note, I always thought that using the Mozarabic Canon in the BCP would be quite interesting but with one major qualification: it is addressed not to the Father, but to the Son (Adesto adesto Iesu bone pontifex...) but this is just a thought.
This little gem is derived from Mozarabic sources, albeit tweaked to address the Father.
Thanks for the ref, LQ. The only thing i've been able to find so far is the prayer book of 1954 on the justus site: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Spain/HC.htm
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Gottschalk
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@PD
I totally sympathise with your sentiments. Some people think of me as very high up the candle, but I really have no time for spikeyness as in yards of lace and affectation - i think usages are part of tradition as long as they're done soberly and not with theatricality. Inasmuch as the principle of reform direct us back to primitive and patristic models, I'm fine with it; and I think Laud, Andrewes, Cosin a bit more, Ken, the Non-Jurors and the Scottish Bishops all in a way or another adhered to such a notion of reform. That is why also, forgive my presumption, perhaps it appeals to you.
In both the main Protestant denominations and the Roman Church, things are left to the whims of either the individual or the Pope. Witness the latest debacle concerning the pope restricting the use of the "Extraordinary Form" for a particular religious order. Some RC commentators are saying this goes against what his predecessor did.
Obviously, we dont want to be left to the theological vagaries of either the multitude or of a single man - both tyrannical.
That said, even though I keep in touch with the SEC, it is, I'm sorry to say, following the path of the CofE, the ECUSA, has been what with the priesting of women.
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Gottschalk
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
On another note, I always thought that using the Mozarabic Canon in the BCP would be quite interesting but with one major qualification: it is addressed not to the Father, but to the Son (Adesto adesto Iesu bone pontifex...) but this is just a thought.
This little gem is derived from Mozarabic sources, albeit tweaked to address the Father.
Thanks for the ref, LQ. The only thing i've been able to find so far is the prayer book of 1954 on the justus site: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Spain/HC.htm
Interestingly enough, the then Archbishop of Armagh (Dr Gregg) encourged the Spanish REC to investigate the Mozarabic Liturgy and restore a more traditional line in vestments. Before that it had been rather a Church of Ireland clone. Traditionally there have been close links between IREC and the C of I because when the C of E turned their backs on the Spanish reformers in the 1880s, Lord Plunkett, the Protestant Archbishop of Dublin, took up their cause.
PD
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Gottschalk
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Thanks, PD, for those little-known facts. Personally, I can see the Mozarabic Liturgy being used in an Anglican setting with as little Roman ceremonial as possible. We would have something the Non-Jurors approximated to.
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Knopwood
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Before that it had been rather a Church of Ireland clone.
I rather had that impression, and I was pleasantly surprised because reading through the preface to the Book, my hopes weren't high. As he went on about how his evangelical eirenicism disposed him to receive positively anyone fighting for the open bible - whether they be Dutch Old Catholics, Tamil Mar Thomas, or Scots Presbyterians - and didn't wish to insist too much on doctrinal matters - but isn't it splendid how well the Iberians have fallen into line without being asked? And yet as I read the Liturgy itself, though I don't know how its ceremonial execution would look, it seemed clearly to have benefited from the zenith of Anglican fascination with, and research in, Latin rites.
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