Ship of Fools: Which direction should the choir face?

Thread: Which direction should the choir face? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

Ours is a conventionally ordered Anglican church. The choir sit facing each other north / south. At the Gospel they turn (west) to face the book; at the Creed (east) to face the altar. However they turn (west) to face the congregation for everything else. This means they have their backs towards the altar for the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus dei.

Thoughts?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Are they to the west or east of a central altar which is actually being used in the service in question? If the altar used is at the east end, then liturgically they shouldn't be turning their backs on it during the Sanctus, which is part of the eucharistic prayer, I'd have thought.

Surely they ought to be looking at the conductor?

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

The altar is at the east end. They are between the altar and the pulpit and lectern (old-fashioned / conventional) which are at the crossing.

Unfortunately there isn't usually a conductor, and when there is they tend to be musically rather than liturgically adept.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We face West except for the said creed, when we face the Altar (ie. East). Oh, and except for when we sing the anthem a capella (the only time we have a conductor) - for that we process to the back of the church, then turn and face East.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.

Indeed. Hidden away in a choir loft.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.
Indeed. Hidden away in a choir loft.

But if they aren't and cannot be . . .

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.
Indeed. Hidden away in a choir loft.
But if they aren't and cannot be . . .

I dunno.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

Ex-ter-min-ate!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.

I'd agree, and I'd prefer a choir loft, but I won't find them distracting if A they are in stalls behind a central altar where the action is going on or B if they face each other from their stalls, which is the natural position.

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Choirs, unlike Victorian children, should be heard but not seen.
I'd agree, and I'd prefer a choir loft, but I won't find them distracting if A they are in stalls behind a central altar where the action is going on or B if they face each other from their stalls, which is the natural position.

Indeed. The whole turn-and-face-the-audience* approach is mistaken, because ultimately the choir ought not be the focus of the congregation's attention and prayer. The choir's singing should be a medium for prayer directed to God.

Visually, choirs should be unobtrusive. Faces looking in your direction are not unobtrusive.

*word used advisedly

Posted by Bax (# 16572) on :

I would argue that this is one of situations where, as long a sensible decision is reached, it does not really matter one way or the other.

Generally, a choir facing the congregation to sing makes sense musically but if its a small building it might not matter, or if one of the singers is keeping time/conduction then they would need to face that person to keep in time.

The only "wrong" solution I could envisage would be doing something deliberately disrespectful. Otherwise, do whatever works, makes sense and is done by all. Many liturgical principles are in fact merely specifying uniformity/dignity/common-sense, rather than making a huge theological point. (e.g. not reverencing an altar in any way if you pass it in procession)

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

They should either face each other or stand at a 45 degree angle (so SW or NW facing) for hymns, Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei, etc.

For the Gloria they should face the altar.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

When I was temporarily having a break from the choir, and sitting in the congregation, it was tremendously reassuring to be able to see the choir and realise that there were more than only 20 people in the evensong congregation. The choir are part of the congregation too, so shouldn't be hidden away!

No choir should get in the way of the altar, that is why they usually stand to both sides (and wear identical clothing) so that the eye looks past them and to the altar in the centre.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

As this funny little website puts it:

" Ideally, the choir should be placed in a side transept and covered by a mesh screen so that their appearance does not present a distraction for the congregation."

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I do wonder if some choirs exist for pastoral rather than musical reasons.

If they don't have sufficient volume to be heard without turning to the congregation, then they aren't up to scratch musically.

I'm sorry if that is hurtful to many sweet and innocent choir members, but I wouldn't say it to their face.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

As a longtime fan of choral music, I am accustomed to having a choir face the audience for performances. When I occasionally run into this while travelling, I find it disconcerting and it has for me a strong flavour of concert performance, rather than worship. Still, I have friends of mine raised in more protestant traditions are accustomed to having the choir face them and they find other approaches odd.

As another consideration, in churches built with choir space between the sanctuary and the congregation, they are often acoustically designed for rows of choristers facing each other. In these places, the sound works best when used as designed.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

The bits the choir sing are usually immediately followed by important parts of the liturg: the Collect after the Gloria; the words of institution after the Sanctus; the invitation to communion after the Agnus dei. I've noticed that when there is no conductor, and the choir has (as it invariably does) turned to face the congregation, they seem to forget this.

The celebrant says "Behold the Lamb of God . . . " and the choir members will all be in the middle of putting their books down and searching for the next piece of music.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

My father-in-law's church (UMC) used to have the altar on the east wall and the choir just to the west of that, with them facing each other. However, the building's acoustics are dreadful, so they were forced to bring the altar forward and put the choir behind it. I rather liked the older way, but I understand the problem with sound.

My point is simply that sometimes you can't help it.

My shack (also UMC) has no choir, as such, although there are a few ladies who like to sing together now and then. There's no place for a choir loft, so they're left standing just behind the Communion rails, in what passes for the chancel. It's not a good arrangement, but I can think of nothing better at the moment. Maybe some day I can knock out the east wall and take over the classrooms just behind; that would give us space for a proper sanctuary. But I'm more likely to be the Doctor's companion than to have that happen.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

If they don't have sufficient volume to be heard without turning to the congregation, then they aren't up to scratch musically.

Our choir, as L'Organist suggests, faces SW to sing. That way, they can be tucked in the corner where they're not visually obtrusive, but can still be heard.

Facing away from the congregation, they can't be heard properly. Perhaps this is because they are relatively few in number, perhaps it's because of the acoustics of our building, or perhaps they're just not very good. I don't think that matters - they are the choir we've got, and we have to use them in worship as best as we can.

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

We used to face across, except that we would turn to face the book for the Gospel, and the altar for the Creed.

PD

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

We stand in a horseshoe facing the director, who has her back to the north. There are generally about 12 to 16 of us.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

I'd particularly like to hear which direction choirs face for the Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus dei.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

They can do what they like Corvo. There's no authority to say. If you asked me, they should continue to face each other across the choir aisle. (And there's no need to face East for the creed - a bit of High Church fussiness to my mind. But I'd still turn East if I was sitting in choir at Choral Evensong and it said "turn east" in the laminated sheet as I wouldn't want to cause distraction.)

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

There is a general tradition of understanding when it comes to various liturgical roles and their acts of piety. Letting a crucifer off the hook when it comes to genuflections is certainly an example. It just makes sense. Allowing people who are not kneeling at the consecration to make a solemn bow is another.

Certainly the choir could be let off the hook during the fulfillment of their role, especially if it is while they are actually singing the Gloria, Sanctus, or Agnus Dei?

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

Our church is arranged as in the OP. The choir (being somewhat small) occupies only the south half of the chancel. The clergy sit on the north with the organist. The only time the choir faces the congregation is when they sing the offertory anthem. Rather than turning in the choir stalls, they file out and regroup at the east end of the chancel. The only problem with this is the occasional traffic jam because at the same time the acolytes are rousing from a stupor to receive the eucharistic elements from the ushers and hand them the offering bowls.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
They can do what they like Corvo.

That seems to lead to this:

quote:
Originally posted by Corvo:
The bits the choir sing are usually immediately followed by important parts of the liturgy the Collect after the Gloria; the words of institution after the Sanctus; the invitation to communion after the Agnus dei.

The celebrant says "Behold the Lamb of God . . . " and the choir members will all be in the middle of putting their books down and searching for the next piece of music.

Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But I'd still turn East if I was sitting in choir at Choral Evensong and it said "turn east" in the laminated sheet as I wouldn't want to cause distraction.)

Indeed, the laminated sheet is an important source of authority in the Church.

No, but seriously: I do agree with the sentiment. "Don't stick out like a sore thumb" is a good liturgical super-rubric. Trying to maintain unity with those you're physically worshipping with is a noble aim, especially when it doesn't match your preferences.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
No, but seriously: I do agree with the sentiment. "Don't stick out like a sore thumb" is a good liturgical super-rubric. Trying to maintain unity with those you're physically worshipping with is a noble aim, especially when it doesn't match your preferences.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this point a little... The most important physical aspect which indicates your unity with those you are worshipping with is the Peace, anything else is personal preference, unless of course you are serving at the altar when a certain level of uniformity is to be desired amongst the altar party.

I suppose I am set in my action-y ways and what they are expressing and reminding me of, so despite being in a relatively MOTR CinW parish where no one else does, I will continue to bow during the words of consecration, during the creed, during the Gloria etc. (especially when so much of the way I feel things should be done I have given up) It is an important aspect of how my theology expresses itself regardless of where I am and therefore trumps the need for absolute uniformity of outward expression with those I am gathered with, since it is a matter between me and God, rather than keeping evo so-and-so in the pew half way down happy.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
As this funny little website puts it:

" Ideally, the choir should be placed in a side transept and covered by a mesh screen so that their appearance does not present a distraction for the congregation."

At Bayreuth, they put the orchestra in a sort of semi-underground chamber under the stage, invisible to the audience.

Okay, it might mean some expensive reordering in some churches, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try ... [Devil]

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
As this funny little website puts it:

" Ideally, the choir should be placed in a side transept and covered by a mesh screen so that their appearance does not present a distraction for the congregation."
At Bayreuth, they put the orchestra in a sort of semi-underground chamber under the stage, invisible to the audience.

Okay, it might mean some expensive reordering in some churches, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try ...

I'm not entirely sure about the continued existence of a choir in most Parish Churches anymore anyway...

Many that I have encountered tend to consist of a handful of people with a very mixed balance of voices (ie. lots of Sap.'s, and very few, if any, Tenor or Bass voices.) Whilst a small choir can do wonders when it has a balanced mixture of voices (I've sung in Chapel choirs which consisted of about 2 voices for each part) and we did stuff rather good across a wide range of pieces, a choir that consists of one male voice and half a dozen female voices is not up to purpose and should probably be retired from existence...

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

If they're in the chancel, arranged "in choir", they should stay that way, with the conductor in the middle (between cantoris & decani). If this blocks the celebrant and altar from view, then the conductor might stand on one side or the other, where his (unobtrusive and non-Bernstein-ish) cues and time-beating will be visible to the singers.

Having them face the congregation during the offertory sounds kind of awful. This is the offering of the gifts, not "special music" time, and the focus should be on the liturgical action.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I do wonder if some choirs exist for pastoral rather than musical reasons.

People are often referred to choirs for social reasons eg. loneliness, social difficulties. The dilemma of whether to take people for this reason, regardless of whether they can sing, was recently discussed here .

For the Gloria we stand and turn to face the congregation. For the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, we are kneeling and facing across the chancel towards the other choir stalls. This is in a church where the Mass is sung by choir and congregation together.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
a choir that consists of one male voice and half a dozen female voices is not up to purpose and should probably be retired from existence...

It's not up to singing 4-part anthems, but it can still provide a core of voices to lead the congregational singing. It works better, IMO, to have a few strong voices in one place, rather than scattered around the congregation not quite keeping in time with each other.

Posted by Sergius-Melli (# 17462) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
a choir that consists of one male voice and half a dozen female voices is not up to purpose and should probably be retired from existence...
It's not up to singing 4-part anthems, but it can still provide a core of voices to lead the congregational singing. It works better, IMO, to have a few strong voices in one place, rather than scattered around the congregation not quite keeping in time with each other.

Then maybe it might be suggested that they sit together in the Nave (about half way down), rather than robing and sitting in the choir...

Although I appreciate that this may defeat some of the pastoral reasons that choirs fulfil, which I do accept are present, especially when members of a choir only come to Church when the choir is singing and at no other time...

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Our choir is in the organ gallery, above the narthex. Choristers therefore face east, but as for kneeling or standing at different times???? I'm not looking up there. I assume that after conducting the Gospel acclamation, the director turns and faces east also.

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Although I appreciate that this may defeat some of the pastoral reasons that choirs fulfil, which I do accept are present, especially when members of a choir only come to Church when the choir is singing and at no other time...

If it's a church that has a Choral Eucharist and Choral Evensong every Sunday that will mean the choir comes to church twice as often than 95% of the rest of the congregation then.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If they don't have sufficient volume to be heard without turning to the congregation, then they aren't up to scratch musically.

Lots of choirs aren't. Most aren't round where I live. Including ours.

So?

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
If they don't have sufficient volume to be heard without turning to the congregation, then they aren't up to scratch musically.
Lots of choirs aren't. Most aren't round where I live. Including ours.

Ours too, although it's massive (easily 25+, with about eight men, two boy trebles and the rest girls and women — not a good balance), with singers whose voice quality varies from 'nearly professional' to 'barely in tune'. They can just about manage an anthem by, say, Parry or Vaughan Williams, but they aren't up to the standard one would expect in cathedral, college chapel, or major urban parish. But then we aren't any of those things, so that's not really surprising.

[ 05. August 2013, 19:25: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Huh! You don't know how lucky you are! Numbers vary between 3 and about 12, maybe 6-8 on a normal day, usually all women, only one of is much better than "barely in tune" (*), rarely more than one man and never more than three, and only one of those can sing in tune higher than bass. (There are probably no more than three or four men in the whole congregation who can reliably sing in tune. I am not one of them. The women do much better. Or rather less badly)

(*) though another one has a rather powerful and distinctive voice which is effective in gospel-style solos of a highly emotional sort. I mean genuinly. I'm not trying to be snarky here.

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