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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The collect - who should say/sing it?
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
It strikes me as very naff. It is the celebrant/president's role to gather up the prayers of the people in the Collect. It is, to my mind, akin to having the whole assembly reading each of the lections.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Within the shape of standard Western liturgy, it does indeed seem to result from a lack of understanding of what the collect's for. Its purpose is, as Thurifer just said, to gather up the prayers of the people. The people's job is the have prayers to be gathered up. A better way to affirm the vocation of all the baptized to approach God in prayer would be:
Presider: "let us pray"
[substantial moment of silence in which the people actually have a chance to pray]
Presider prays collect
All affirm: "Amen."
This respects the differing vocations of all present.
That said, the practice you've seen seems about equally bad as what I see at many churches where there's nary a breath in between "Lettuce pray... Oh God, you are so very, very big..." This denies the people any role, whereas what Leo saw just gives them the wrong one.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
In Western liturgy that's even got a vague passing resemblance to something catholic, it's part of the presidential role. I wouldn't attend a church where it was anything other. I would assume that they were so lacking in liturgical sense, I might also get served with cola and birthday cake at Communion.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I agree with everybody here so far. Strangely, last year I had a stint looking after a parish in vacancy which the previous incumbent had pushed up the candle as far as using the Roman Missal (more or less) before he left for Rome himself, but there too the congregation insisted on joining in with both the Collect and post-communion. Nothing I could do about it except confiscate the service leaflets beforehand!
In an Anglican context, saying the post-communion prayer together is more understandable if no more liturgically proper, because congregations got used to saying the fixed prayers in this way long before CW (re)introduced variable collects.
Fortunately neither of these are common practice in any church I regularly have anything to do with.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
I've never been to a church at which there is a meaningful pause before the collect for the congregation to pray, or where there's any meaningful indication that the congregation should be praying their own prayers. Saying 'let us pray' is insufficient if the congregation have been lead to believe that 'let us pray' means 'please sit down'.
Have I been to particularly liturgically inept churches or has everyone else here been to particularly liturgically sophisticated churches?
Posts: 831 | From: london | Registered: Oct 2002
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by *Leon*:
I've never been to a church at which there is a meaningful pause before the collect for the congregation to pray, or where there's any meaningful indication that the congregation should be praying their own prayers. Saying 'let us pray' is insufficient if the congregation have been lead to believe that 'let us pray' means 'please sit down'.
Have I been to particularly liturgically inept churches or has everyone else here been to particularly liturgically sophisticated churches?
Far too many places (and for that matter, priests who should know better...) who claim liturgical sophistry have failed to appreciate that the line 'let us pray' is a cue to do just that.
It certainly shouldn't be a cue to sit down - the Church traditionally stands to pray together!
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
When I was a curate, in the late 80s, I served my title in a church where the vicar encouraged everyone to join in the Collect and the Proper Preface, so that there was much turning of pages in the ASB. I always felt uncomfortable with it, but could not articulate why (and wouldn't have been listened to anyway); 25 years on I think I can.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We regularly say the post-communion prayer together, but never the collect.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
We do the same as Chorister's place.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We regularly say the post-communion prayer together, but never the collect.
Do you mean the 'souls and bodies' or 'when we were still far off' (invariable) prayers or the optional proper post-communions?
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Leaping in before Chorister, to whom the question was really addressed:
When everyone has received, and a hymn sung during communion, we say the proper post communion prayer (whatever it is that week) immediately before the dismissal (which in our case includes the notices), which ends with the blessing.
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
In Western liturgy that's even got a vague passing resemblance to something catholic, it's part of the presidential role. I wouldn't attend a church where it was anything other. I would assume that they were so lacking in liturgical sense, I might also get served with cola and birthday cake at Communion.
No way did they not fall outside the parameters of canon - though the weine didn't taste very alcoholic and i did wonder about fruit juice. I had several qualms about the way did their liturgy but it had a long-standing catholic tradition which got lost somewhere along the way.
I am quite exercised by this issue because i may buy a bungalow in that village when my arthritis gets worse and was checking the place out. Having no transport, I'd have to attend there.
At least it has a parish communion 3 Sundays out of 4 - unlike many/most villages.
The Sunday attendance increased 7 fold over 5 years so they must be doing something right. I suspect the saying of the 'special prayer together' was something that a well-meaning member of a worship committee suggested and everyone said 'how lovely!'
Most clergy get little or no training in liturgy, especially if they don't come from A/c colleges. The local college here has a course on 'Worship' and it seems to be all about praise bands.
The previous vicar got very high preferment after as very short time in ministry and that church is held up by its diocese as a model of good practice.
My colleagues tell me I am being an anglo-nit-picker.
Anyway, I've done a MW Report - when/if it gets published.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My colleagues tell me I am being an anglo-nit-picker.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) Keep up the good work, leo!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
In my parish (Anglican Church of Canada) we say the collect, the Our Father & the prayer after communion as a group. It seems much more inclusive . In the long run does it make
that much difference ? I think not.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The Collect is the celebrant/presider's and believe that there was a note to that effect in the ASB, and it is probably still somewhere in CW though it would take me a month of wet Wednesdays to find it. IIRC it gave the Greeting, the Collect, the Absolution, the EP and Fraction, and the Blessing as the irreducable minimum of the presider's part in the Mass.
It strikes me as being very naff (or *cute* in the worst possible way) to override a positive instruction in the liturgical books and 1500 years of liturgical custom in the west and do something different. However, I am a mod. catholic in churchmanship terms so I do get a bit anal when a modern liturgy actually has a rubric saying 'you shall' as they are such a rarity that it means they are serious about this!
I was taught back in ASB days that the fixed post-comunions could go either way. When CW came in, the consensus was that it is 'easier' if the variable ones are read by the celebrant. I suspect that the motivation behind this was part symmetry between the Collect and the Post-Communion, and partly to remove another excuse for unneccessary tree slaughtering.
Needless to say, I have a thing about not printing the liturgy in a booklet every week. It tends to give the impression that the liturgy is disposable, not something to be treasured and taken seriously. However, given that there are some pretty big seasonal variation permitted in CW, and not everyone has a PhD in finding their way around CW, I would have though that the logical course was to print a series of seasonal booklets. Said seasonal booklets, could then be collected and stored until needed again. A good hymnal should be able to supply the rest, reducing the slaughter of trees to just the weekly notices with the scripture readings in invisible to the middle aged eye 8-point type!
PD
[ 05. August 2013, 18:27: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
My colleagues tell me I am being an anglo-nit-picker.
Keep up the good work, leo!
OMG - I can just see them rolling their eyebrows at the next ministry team meeting.
It's a question of what is worth arguing to defend and what isn't.
The collect isn't. Proper elements and eucharistic prayer are.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
It won't surprise Angloid and leo that we usually say the Collect as a whole congregation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
If it is meant to collect up or summarise or postface the prayers of the whole congregation then maybe it ought to be placed after teh intercessions, not where it is, where in practice it often follows sirectly after a hymn. And if it doesn't it comes after Confession, and the Celebrant has already responded to the Confession by pronouncing the Absiolution.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
When we still said the Collect for Purity aloud, we said that together. Now we're encouraged to pray it silently before the service. We still say the invariable thanksgiving after communion together, after the priest says the one proper to the day.
Saying the collect of the day together seems a bit barmy, though.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
It won't surprise Angloid and leo that we usually say the Collect as a whole congregation.
No ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
If it is meant to collect up or summarise or postface the prayers of the whole congregation then maybe it ought to be placed after teh intercessions, not where it is, where in practice it often follows sirectly after a hymn. And if it doesn't it comes after Confession, and the Celebrant has already responded to the Confession by pronouncing the Absiolution.
I don't think it's meant to summarise the 'prayers of the whole congregation' if by that is meant the intercession. I think it is more like a focussing of attention; we come to church (many of us arriving late or at the last minute) with many distractions on our mind. A bidding to 'let us pray' and a moment's silence gives us the chance to set these to one side and begin to focus on the liturgy. If we have to focus our minds and tongues on saying unfamiliar (and often gramatically or theologically complex) words it rather defeats the object.
A collect to conclude the intercessions is always an option and in some rites it is mandatory.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Saying the collect of the day together is something I encounter frequently when visiting Lutheran churches. I only have enountered it once in a TEC place.
That said, the BCP79 of TEC appoints the postcommunion prayer be said by 'celebrant and people' (see here and scroll down) in the modern-language rite, and suggests it in the old-language rite.
My only issue with it is when the leader actually believes that comprehension improves with cold oral recitation of an unfamiliar text, spoken only once.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
In the antipodes it is horrendously common to say the collect together. As I wrote on a diocesan website recently (it's always so noble to quote oneself ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ) "that's not a collect, it's a scatter".
All liturgies I have used (except 1662) have a conversational post-communion prayer where single voice (not necessarily the presiding priest though I often tend to) gives voice to thanks and the congregants respond with self-offering.
I try always to introduce the Collect with "let us pray that ...[summary of theme of day]" then short silence - several seconds ... then set collect. Occasionally flurrification rulz and I simply voice the collect, but always with a silence between the invitation to pray and the prayer-summation.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Within the shape of standard Western liturgy, it does indeed seem to result from a lack of understanding of what the collect's for. Its purpose is, as Thurifer just said, to gather up the prayers of the people. The people's job is the have prayers to be gathered up.
Well, that's assuming an etymology which is still being debated. Some sources contend that "collecta" refers to the gathering together of the people, and suggest that the collect may have been said at the door of the church before the procession.
Bear in mind, of course, that I think liturgy by etymology misses the point to begin with...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
This might be a tangent, but one of my friends was given 25c as a boy every Sunday if he were able to learn by heart and recite the day's collect before the family set off to service. He told me that he kept up the practice even during his post-confirmation atheist phase as a useful source of adolescent revenue. He told me that they came back to him, in order of the liturgical year, when he was recuperating from an unpleasant operation, and needed a focus away from his discomfort.
Preparing this post, I took the occasion to flip through the propers and reviewing the collects, found them really interesting and useful. Perhaps, rather than wonder about who should say them (I prefer the priest, rather than having them recited by all), it might not be a bad idea to learn the texts.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
At our formal communion I encourage the practice of 1) Let us pray, 2) Silence, 3) President reads collect. The president says the post communion prayer.
At our informal communion the whole congregation often says the Alternative Collect together. We often don't have a post communion prayer.
[ 05. August 2013, 22:39: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
I confess our congregation, by long custom, says both the collect and post communion proper.
Although this Sunday the archdeacon, who is a better liturgist, stymied them by singing the collect. ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Mixed for us. We all say the Collect for Purity after the processional hymn and opening. The celebrant chants the Collect for the day after the Gloria, having first invited us all to pray. The post-communion thanks is conversational, in the course of which we offer ourselves.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Here's a thought: in these churches where the people "crash" the president's texts, does the president crash the people's? Does the president, for example, say the people's "Amen"s at the end of the eucharistic prayer and the collect, or responses such as "thanks be to God" or "Lord have mercy", which properly belong to the people?
And does the president assertively lead parts of the Mass that should be said equally by everyone (or delegated to a lay choir) such as the creed, gloria, Lord's Prayer and sanctus?
This "who should say it" business has to work both ways.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We regularly say the post-communion prayer together, but never the collect.
Do you mean the 'souls and bodies' or 'when we were still far off' (invariable) prayers or the optional proper post-communions?
The latter. The collect of the day is printed in the service leaflet for people to follow, and pray along silently if they wish.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was at church away from yesterday and the whole congregation joined in the collect (the 'special prayer for today') They also said the post-communion together as well as 'Father of all...'
I have only ever encountered this once before and it seems to me to be naff and bad liturgy.
Am I right or am I being too picky?
The church I attend says the collect together. My former church didn't.
It may well be bad liturgy, but as long as the heart of the church is in the right place, as I think it is, I am not sure I mind all that much. I probably won't join in, but I tend not to join in with much as it is; just the amens. At the moment I prefer to float through a service and let it carry me, unless my contribution is absolutely necessary to counter huge washes of silence.
I am certainly not going to risk telling the Vicar that his service is naff. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 06. August 2013, 08:57: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This "who should say it" business has to work both ways.
Indeed. Sometimes, the people just don't know the responses, though. I'm thinking especially of weddings and funerals. Then, the least bad option is generally for the presider to lead those bits too. Also, at daily mass with no choir, the people there who know their parts well couldn't start the Memorial Acclamation on their own as they don't know which is to be used and couldn't start the Agnus Dei on their own as there's no way to cue them. For these, most places have the presider start them off and then the people conclude.
In Mexico, they have an ingenious solution for this: a lay person known as a monitor stands at the ambo whenever there isn't a reading / preaching happening from there and leads all of the congregational responses.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
We say the collect and the post-communion prayer together.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Within the shape of standard Western liturgy, it does indeed seem to result from a lack of understanding of what the collect's for. Its purpose is, as Thurifer just said, to gather up the prayers of the people. The people's job is the have prayers to be gathered up.
Well, that's assuming an etymology which is still being debated. Some sources contend that "collecta" refers to the gathering together of the people, and suggest that the collect may have been said at the door of the church before the procession.
Indeed - I think the 'collect' originally was about the people being collected together.
The bishop would arrive at whatever station mass he was doping - the people waited for him. The collect was the end of the various songs and litanies sung by the people as they awaited him.
Before that, in times of persecution, people staggered their arrival so as not to arouse the suspicions of the soldiers that they were going to an illegal gathering. The collect was said when all had finally arrived.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
In Mexico, they have an ingenious solution for this: a lay person known as a monitor stands at the ambo whenever there isn't a reading / preaching happening from there and leads all of the congregational responses.
We did something like this at one church where I was a layperson. I was actually the one who did it, too. I stood to one side, and led the people's responses to the Psalm and the Eucharistic prayer (Sanctus and Benedictus, mystery of faith, and Lord's Prayer).
As far as the OP, I read the Collect of the Day and the post Communion prayer*, even though the rubrics call for the latter to be said by the people. The reason is that I don't want to have to tell people to turn to page whatever right after the Communion, and then have them shuffle around again for the hymn. It's better, IMO, to just pray the prayer myself and then there's just one shuffle instead of two.
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*Eternal God, we give you thanks for this holy mystery in which you
have given yourself to
us. Grant that we may go into the world in the strength of your Spirit, to give ourselves
for others, in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
at daily mass with no choir, the people there who know their parts well couldn't start the Memorial Acclamation on their own as they don't know which is to be used
The C of E gets round this one by having a different introduction to each of the acclamations. Though being the C of E of course people will need to have their heads buried in the book to find it which rather defeats the object.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
The invariable practice at our place (thanks be to God) is for the priest to say the Collect. If our Visiting Priest is presiding, he sings it - which is a jolly good way of making sure that the priest - and only he (or she) - leads at this point. To have the assembly of faith say it is An Abomination Unto The Lord (and probably makes the Baby Jesus cry). Anyway, the C of E collects (at least) are not at all suitable for general recitation in the way that they are written and laid out. You have only to look at the 1662 BCP to see how prayers etc. for general recitation are divided into sentences, phrases, and paragraphs. Cranmer knew what he was about.....
/tangent alert/
Is it just me, or do others think that many modern RC collects are weak and miserable little things? Half the time seems to be taken up with the priest telling us what we ought to pray for....as if we can't think of it for ourselves.
Ian J.
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Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it just me, or do others think that many modern RC collects are weak and miserable little things?
Yup. The least satisfactory part of the recently-departed Missal. Have they been replaced? If so I don't suppose it is an improvement if they are anything like the rest of the new translation. But the English Missal ones are atrocious too.
I have to admit, Cranmer was a genius.
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it just me, or do others think that many modern RC collects are weak and miserable little things?
Yup. The least satisfactory part of the recently-departed Missal. Have they been replaced? If so I don't suppose it is an improvement if they are anything like the rest of the new translation.
Oh, they're much worse than the Order of Mass. Far and away the worst part of the new translation.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it just me, or do others think that many modern RC collects are weak and miserable little things?
Yup. The least satisfactory part of the recently-departed Missal. Have they been replaced? If so I don't suppose it is an improvement if they are anything like the rest of the new translation.
Oh, they're much worse than the Order of Mass. Far and away the worst part of the new translation.
I've been quietly hoping that they would start sounding better when priests finally lose the full-stop-between-every-clause pattern of the old 'Opening Prayer.'
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I was at church away from yesterday and the whole congregation joined in the collect (the 'special prayer for today') They also said the post-communion together as well as 'Father of all...'
I have only ever encountered this once before and it seems to me to be naff and bad liturgy.
Am I right or am I being too picky?
Isn't "Father of all, we give you thanks and praise that when you were still far off" meant to be said by all anyway?
Having said that, I hardly ever hear "Father of all..." any more. I hear it less than those other two peculiarly Anglican and decidedly older prayers "We do not presume to come to this your table..." and "Almighty God, to whom all hearts are open..." which I grew up saying every week.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Is it just me, or do others think that many modern RC collects are weak and miserable little things? Half the time seems to be taken up with the priest telling us what we ought to pray for....as if we can't think of it for ourselves.
Ian J.
and 1662 bcp collects aren't? There seem to be innumerable such collects that amount to "May we pray for such things as we ought to pray for"
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
This "who should say it" business has to work both ways.
Indeed. Sometimes, the people just don't know the responses, though. I'm thinking especially of weddings and funerals. Then, the least bad option is generally for the presider to lead those bits too. Also, at daily mass with no choir, the people there who know their parts well couldn't start the Memorial Acclamation on their own as they don't know which is to be used and couldn't start the Agnus Dei on their own as there's no way to cue them. For these, most places have the presider start them off and then the people conclude.
In Mexico, they have an ingenious solution for this: a lay person known as a monitor stands at the ambo whenever there isn't a reading / preaching happening from there and leads all of the congregational responses.
This happens in France and Italy too, where this person is usually a chorister (the choirmaster?) and sort-of conducts the congregation during the Gradual psalm and at other points where the congregation is singing something. This is probably related to the fact that in France and Italy, most churches do not have service booklets. Nice to know this role has a name.
IIRC Enoch described Anglican churches as having had a similar person called the clerk between the reformation and industrial revolution, presumably because many people would have been illiterate then. Also, "lining out" actually originated in Britain, even in Anglican churches! It is still preserved on a remote Scottish island iirc -
I remember reading an explicit mapping of anamnesises ("anamneses"?) to different liturgical seasons. We alternated between "Salvator mundi salva nos" and "Nous proclamons ta mort" in Taizé, though, so the aforementioned mapping may be non-standard or peculiarly Anglican.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
Parish Clerks survived widely until the 1870s and 80s, and longer in conservative places. Their origin is pre-reformation - probably around he 14th century.
Lining out is still done in the Reformed Baptist tradition in the USA back in the hollers in KY and TN, and by the Wee Frees in Scotland, especially in Gaelic speaking areas.
Lining out lasted in the Church of England from 1560-ish until the late 1700s when parish bands, and organs began to civilize the singing of metrical psalms. Some remote places where still lining out in the 1810s and 20s.
PD
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My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Here's a thought: in these churches where the people "crash" the president's texts, does the president crash the people's? Does the president, for example, say the people's "Amen"s at the end of the eucharistic prayer and the collect, or responses such as "thanks be to God" or "Lord have mercy", which properly belong to the people?
I say them (rather than assertively lead) simply because that way people who are dependent on the hearing loop know what's being said when.
Oh, and just because I've been ordained priest doesn't mean I cease to be one of the congregation...
[ 07. August 2013, 07:00: Message edited by: Custard ]
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We regularly say the post-communion prayer together, but never the collect.
Do you mean the 'souls and bodies' or 'when we were still far off' (invariable) prayers or the optional proper post-communions?
The latter. The collect of the day is printed in the service leaflet for people to follow, and pray along silently if they wish.
My understanding is that the reason this prayer wasn't intended for congregational use was purely and simply because the compilers of the ASB considered it too long and wordy for the congregation to say together. There's certainly no theological or doctrinal reason for it. I've attended quite a number churches, including a few cathedrals, where this prayer is said by the congregation.
[ 07. August 2013, 07:55: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Oh, and just because I've been ordained priest doesn't mean I cease to be one of the congregation...
You certainly don't cease to be a member of the laity. But when you are presiding you have a distinctive role which is different from that of the 'congregation'. Though I take your practical point about hearing loops.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
My understanding is that the reason this prayer wasn't intended for congregational use was purely and simply because the compilers of the ASB considered it too long and wordy for the congregation to say together. There's certainly no theological or doctrinal reason for it. I've attended quite a number churches, including a few cathedrals, where this prayer is said by the congregation.
Your reference to 'this prayer' is a bit ambiguous, do you mean the 'Father of all...' prayer? It is actually printed for congregational recitation in CW, maybe because people are now more familiar with it and so are less likely to stumble over the words. I think that is the real objection to congregational recitation of the collect of the day, because it is difficult to [a] get one's tongue around the words and phrasing; [b] think about the meaning, and [c] to pray them, at the same time. If the words are familiar that problem is minimised, though the simpler and fewer the words we all have to say, the better, IMHO.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Yes, IIRC we took to saying it congregationally at the Church Of My Yoof sometime in the 1980s.
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Your reference to 'this prayer' is a bit ambiguous, do you mean the 'Father of all...' prayer?
Sorry, I was responding to Chorister's "the latter" so, yes, I meant the "Father of all ..." prayer
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
We say "Almighty God, we thank thee for feeding us..." congregationally through the year after the celebrant has sung the post-communion prayer. We say "Father of all..." in Eastertide and I'd guess that maybe 10% bother to join in. (Which drives me absolutely potty, for the record.)
Thurible
[ 07. August 2013, 11:21: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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