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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Reluctance to use old war horse hymns?
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
This Petertide, I was at an ordination in a northern cathedral that shall remain nameless. The service overall was nice enough (good sermon, etc), but I was astonished to discover that, of the numerous hymns (there were at least half a dozen), the only one: 'In Christ Alone' (see thread in Purgatory). I turned to the rest of the party I was with and asked them if any of them knew any of the hymns. None of them did. And here's the thing: this party consisted of me (a very regular churchgoer), two priests, two ordinands, and a churchwarden. One a normal Sunday, we would be found at five different churches of diverse churchmanship (although none lower than central, I suppose). If we didn't know any of the hymns, they must have been even less familiar to less regular churchgoers.
It seems to me that there is a tiny number of hymns known to pretty much every English person, whether churchgoing or not: 'Abide with me', 'Guide me, O thou great redeemer', Jerusalem, most Christmas carols etc.
There is a slightly larger selection that will be known to casual churchgoers, which unlike the first group even includes a few modern hymns ('Blessed Assurance', 'Lord of the Dance', etc).
There is yet another group that would be known to most committed churchgoers, from which 'The Church's One Foundation' or 'Thy hand, O God, hast guided'' would be obvious choices for and ordination service (our friends being ordained were just as mystified by the hymn choices, btw)
Yet, there seems to be a snobbery in some circles against any hymns that are widely known, particularly anything associated with Song's of Praise (whether the old Dearmer hymnbook or the BBC series). Now, I certainly have no objection to learning new hymns: in fact, it can be quite fun. But if planning a big public liturgy, I would have made sure to include at least one old war horse hymn. In my experience, it's the only way to get good congregational singing.
Am I on to something, or am I out of touch? [LIST]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Yes. Maybe (but none the worse for that).
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Amos
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# 44
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Posted
Yes, in my experience.
This is the whole point of the hymnbook thread I started a few days ago.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
At British Methodist presbyteral ordinations, the hymns are specified as part of the liturgy and consequently always the same. They are:
1. Ye servants of God your master proclaim
2. The Saviour when to heaven he rose
3. Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire
4. Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
5. O thou who camest from above
There tend to be some more modern songs during communion.
[ 06. August 2013, 20:34: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
S. Bacchus:
But if planning a big public liturgy, I would have made sure to include at least one old war horse hymn. In my experience, it's the only way to get good congregational singing.
Am I on to something, or am I out of touch?
You're definitely onto something.
Here's how the planning meeting goes:
"Well, "Guide Me, O Thou Great Redeemer" would work well, but don't you think it's overused? Let's dig through our hymnals and songbooks."
[silent moment of page-shuffling]
"What about Birds are a-singing, Trees are a-flinging, Bishop's a-laying, hands on the heads?* We used to sing it all the time at seminary, but I just can't get my own parish to do it."
[murmurs of approval, one voice emerges]
"That sounds good. We should have enough people there who remember it from seminary, or who can read music. The musicians will certainly be able to play it. Maybe enough people will like it that it will become more commonplace. Should we order lunch, then?"
*Don't bother looking. I made it up.
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Over time, I have become more and more accepting of this practice. I think it is more about churchly boredom than anything else. Yes, the rest of the people want better hymns, so good planners make sure to throw those in regularly. Having an entire liturgy with no familiar hymn tunes is pushing it.
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Vade Mecum
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# 17688
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Posted
How much is this due to the hymns being drawn from the 'Ordination' section of the hymnal, though? That would be a good reason for your not knowing them.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
Sounds from the OP as if they were all modern choruses. If they were 'traditional' hymns the chances are the tunes would be familiar even if the words weren't.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I big priority for us in our planning meetings for Final Vows and Ordination liturgies was to not avoid the obvious. If something is used a lot for these kind of things, there's probably a good reason for it. Some people go to these ceremonies year after year (those at the planning meetings certainly do), but a lot of family and friends will just be there for us. We didn't need to reinvent the wheel for the sake of variety when so many people were once-in-a-lifetime attenders.
So, like every year since any of us can remember, the opening hymn for Final Vows will be "All Creatures of Our God and King" and the closing hymn for diaconate will be "Lift High the Cross." There is room for us to be personal with this thought. "These Alone are Enough" (a paraphrase of the Suscipe) for the offertory expresses something that resonates with my class in a way that it wouldn't with everyone.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
How much is this due to the hymns being drawn from the 'Ordination' section of the hymnal, though? That would be a good reason for your not knowing them.
Oh, trust me, they weren't. In fact, I think one would struggle to find any of these hymns in the New English Hymnal or the original English Hymnal. Probably not in Hymns Awful and Morbid either. I suspect they were chosen to show that the diocese was supports modern hymnography or some such thing. There's a place for that, and I can definitely see the argument for including a new hymn or two, or even half of them, but there's a limit. Note that they weren't for the most part bad hymns, or at least not bad examples of their type, but no were they well known ones.
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
Out of interest Bacchus, what were the hymns?
Well, according to the service sheet I saved, they :
- 'Living God, your word has called us'
- 'Thou art the Christ, O Lord' (this one I feel I should have known, but didn't)
- 'Send, O God, your Holy Spirti' (which was possibly intended to a loose paraphrase of the Veni Sancte Spiritus, but is certainly not one of the verse paraphrases I know, and different enough form the Latin to be a new hymn)
- 'In Christ Alone' (edited against the writer's wishes, I might add, which does make me a little happy)
- 'We have gathered round your table'
- 'Jesus the Lord said "I am the Bread"'
- 'My Jesus, My Saviour' (okay, I think I may remember that from being a teenage evangelical many years ago).
- 'Hope of our calling; hope through courage won'
In contrast, rummaging around through my extensive collection of service sheets, I found one from an installation I had attended early in the year, which seems to me to have a much more suitable balance of hymns on the broad theme of a new ministry:
- 'At the name of Jesus'
- 'I joyed when to the house of God' (Ps. 122 from the Scottish psalter)
- 'O thou who camest from above'
- 'We pray thee, heavenly Father, to hear us in thy love'
- 'Schmücke dich, o liebe Seele'/'Deck thyself, my soul with gladness' (first verse in German sung by choir only)
- 'O thou, who at thy Eucharist didst pray'
- 'Thy hand, O God, hast guided'
Now, granted, the second set of hymns is more clearly of a tradition within the Church of England, but some thought seems to have been put into picking hymns that people would know (at least within that tradition). After the service, several lay people commented about how the choice of hymns was 'perfect'.
A final example from this year's collection of service sheets (I do have a few), this time from a big national celebration (I suspect everyone here will know which one, ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), which I think admirably tried to combine old and new hymns from the full breadth of Anglican churchmanship (by which I mean both really terrible Catholic hymns and really terribly Evangelical ones), but still gives pride of place to hymns people know and are used to singing:
- 'O for a thousand tongues to sing'
- 'Christ is the King, O friends rejoice!'
- 'Holy Virgin, by God's decree'
- 'Thou dist leave thy throne and thy kingly crown'
- 'Joy to thee Queen! within thine ancient dowry'
- 'Crown him with many crowns'
- 'How deep the Father's love for us' (the first on this list to be new to me)
- 'In Christ alone' (somewhat surprisingly not edited on this occasion — I guess they really wanted to be Broad Church)
- 'Soul of my Saviour, sanctify my breast'
- 'All for Jesus'
- 'Great is thy faithfulness'
- 'All glory to God in his mercy and grace' (aka the Walsingham pilgrims' hymn, as if the rest of the list didn't give the event away).
- 'Would you be free from you passion and pride' (aka 'Pow'r in the blood')
- "All hail the power of Jesus' name'
- 'He he who would valiant be'
- 'How shall I sing that majesty'
- 'Guide me, O thou great Redeemer'
I think it's a testament to the skill in choosing a variety of hymns that it didn't seem excessive or even odd to sing 18 hymns on the day, the longest of which has nearly 40 verses.
[ 06. August 2013, 20:39: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
The professor in charge of the Anglican Studies program at the local Methodist seminary puts together a weekday mass throughout the school year, which I used to try to attend when I was a law student on the same campus. He saw it as his duty to introduce future priests to the lessor known bits of the hymnal; consequently, we always sang at least one hymn that was not an old stand by.
I personally like that approach. You have to do it within reason. You wouldn't want to introduce three new hymns at one time. And you have to read your congregation's ability to pick up new hymns. But if you start limiting yourself to the hymns that "everyone knows," you end up singing the same five hymns all the time, and that gets old fast. I can assure you that if I were church shopping and I discovered a place that I liked well enough but for the fact that they seemed to sing the same hymns all the time, I would continue my shopping.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
So, like every year since any of us can remember, the opening hymn for Final Vows will be "All Creatures of Our God and King" and the closing hymn for diaconate will be "Lift High the Cross."
Perfect. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
He saw it as his duty to introduce future priests to the lessor known bits of the hymnal; consequently, we always sang at least one hymn that was not an old stand by.
I personally like that approach. You have to do it within reason.
Oh, I agree, and I've always particularly enjoyed singing the hymns appointed for Red Letter Days in the (N)EH. Also, sometimes in my parish we have a Sunday when all of the hymns are by one writer (recently George Herbert), including both old favourites and ones that perhaps are newer to the congregation. It seems to me that it's a question of balance and meeting congregational expectations (by which I mean there may be a time to get really innovative and drag out an obscure collection of hymns, but it's probably not midnight on Christmas eve when the church is full of people who, quite understandably, want 'O Come, all ye faithful' and 'Hark the Herald').
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It seems to me that there is a tiny number of hymns known to pretty much every English person, whether churchgoing or not: 'Abide with me', 'Guide me, O thou great redeemer', Jerusalem, most Christmas carols etc.
Yep. Though its "Guide me O thou great Jehovah" in our unexpurgated hymbook of course. Add "Amazing Grace" and "The Lord's my Shepherd" and that's about your lot.
I wouldn't say they know "most Christmas carols" either. Pretty much everyone will know "O come all ye faithful" and "Once in royal David's city" and "While Shepherd's watched their flocks by night" and "Away in a manger". They'll be familiar with the tune of "Hark the Herald angels sing" but maybe not all the words. A large minority will know or half-remember from school "Silent Night" and "The First Noel" and "O little town of Bethlehem" but probably nothing like all.
I've been going through old service sheets from our church and so I know what the most common hymns we sing are. In fact I know the most common two hundred... there are some good old hymns in there but there aer also a lot of rather wimpish 80s and 90s choruses - I suspect that's due to the age of the people choosing the songs.
And our most often sung song is "How great thou art".
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L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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PD
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# 12436
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Posted
The old war horses are out in force during the summer at my shack. This is due to the fact attendance is a bit thin, and it is a good way of ensuring there is some (any!) volume to the congregational singing. Even the oldest of 'dear old things' can belt out A mighty Fortress; Praise my soul the king of heaven; O God our help in ages past; etc.. I suppose that sometime between now and the end of the holiday season I shall have to breakdown and roster All things bright and beautiful which I am not overly fond of due to over use at School.
Ordinations tend to have a well worn grove in that I am very surprised if 'St Patrick's Breastplate' and 'The Church's one foundation' do not come up, and very surprised if something unusual does. However, at the last one I got a real curved ball. Thankfully it was at the offertory so I left everyone else to lip sync the choir or give up, and got on with preparing the elements.
[ 07. August 2013, 15:16: Message edited by: PD ]
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
...
"What about Birds are a-singing, Trees are a-flinging, Bishop's a-laying, hands on the heads?* We used to sing it all the time at seminary, but I just can't get my own parish to do it."
*Don't bother looking. I made it up.
Are you sure? I could have sworn it's in Hymns Old & New (and if it isn't once K*v*n M*yh*w hear of it they will be onto you like a shot to get it into the next edition).
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
You're definitely onto something.
Here's how the planning meeting goes:
"Well, "Guide Me, O Thou Great Redeemer" would work well, but don't you think it's overused? Let's dig through our hymnals and songbooks."
[silent moment of page-shuffling]
...and the rest...
Now that was an inspired bit of parody, leavened with the wise voice of weary experience.
Well played, Olaf!
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Well, according to the service sheet I saved, they :
- 'Living God, your word has called us'
- 'Thou art the Christ, O Lord' (this one I feel I should have known, but didn't)
- 'Send, O God, your Holy Spirti' (which was possibly intended to a loose paraphrase of the Veni Sancte Spiritus, but is certainly not one of the verse paraphrases I know, and different enough form the Latin to be a new hymn)
- 'In Christ Alone' (edited against the writer's wishes, I might add, which does make me a little happy)
- 'We have gathered round your table'
- 'Jesus the Lord said "I am the Bread"'
- 'My Jesus, My Saviour' (okay, I think I may remember that from being a teenage evangelical many years ago).
- 'Hope of our calling; hope through courage won'
The first is in Complete Anglican Hymns Old and New to a tune by Malcolm Archer, but I would choose either Abbot's Leigh or Austria, so that people would know how to sing it.
The second is in NEH and AMR, but not in any of the Mayhew books AFAICT, it's set to Cephas (which I don't know) by WH Monk. It could be sung to (e.g.) Love unknown.
Send O God Your Holy Spirit (Gregorian Institute of America aka GIAmusic) and We have gathered round your table (Oregon Catholic Press aka OCP) are unknown to me, and inaccessible without payment. "Jesus the Lord said" is unknown to me. It looks as if it might be Australian in origin. Apparently it is in Complete Mission Praise.
"Hope of our calling" goes to the tune Woodlands, so it should be an OK sing, unless you want to sing a part.
I agree there is too much new, really - although some of it could be mitigated by singing well-known tunes.
I think it would be unrealistic to expect an average English congregation to know any of 'Send, O God, your Holy Spirit', 'We have gathered round your table' or 'Jesus the Lord said "I am the Bread"'. They might be appropriate as primarily choir items.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
I'm surprised, actually, reading these lists of hymns and seeing how many I don't know. 25 years of singing in church, most of that time in choirs, you'd think I'd know most of the traditional Anglican stuff but apparently not. This list:
quote:
◾'O for a thousand tongues to sing'
◾'Christ is the King, O friends rejoice!'
◾'Holy Virgin, by God's decree'
◾'Thou dist leave thy throne and thy kingly crown'
◾'Joy to thee Queen! within thine ancient dowry'
◾'Crown him with many crowns'
◾'How deep the Father's love for us' (the first on this list to be new to me)
◾'In Christ alone' (somewhat surprisingly not edited on this occasion — I guess they really wanted to be Broad Church)
◾'Soul of my Saviour, sanctify my breast'
◾'All for Jesus'
◾'Great is thy faithfulness'
◾'All glory to God in his mercy and grace' (aka the Walsingham pilgrims' hymn, as if the rest of the list didn't give the event away).
◾'Would you be free from you passion and pride' (aka 'Pow'r in the blood')
◾"All hail the power of Jesus' name'
◾'He he who would valiant be'
◾'How shall I sing that majesty'
◾'Guide me, O thou great Redeemer'
I know about half of. (1-4-6-7-8-14-15-17 if you're curious)
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm surprised, actually, reading these lists of hymns and seeing how many I don't know. 25 years of singing in church, most of that time in choirs, you'd think I'd know most of the traditional Anglican stuff but apparently not.
Actually, that doesn't surprise me. The ones you don't know aren't really traditional Anglican hymns at all, but a mix of saccharine Roman Catholic stuff and kitsch Evangelical Camp Revival stuff. Each, in its own way, the sort of thing that Dearmer and Vaughan Williams would have found horrifying. Plus, two of those hymns are very geographically specific.
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gog
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# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
"Jesus the Lord said" is unknown to me. It looks as if it might be Australian in origin. Apparently it is in Complete Mission Praise.
The original is in Urdu according to one hymnal I have it in. Source http://www.singingthefaithplus.org.uk/?p=1884
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gog
Shipmate
# 15615
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
At British Methodist presbyteral ordinations, the hymns are specified as part of the liturgy and consequently always the same. They are:
1. Ye servants of God your master proclaim
2. The Saviour when to heaven he rose
3. Come Holy Ghost our souls inspire
4. Lord enthroned in heavenly splendour
5. O thou who camest from above
There tend to be some more modern songs during communion.
And and consequently ![[Confused]](confused.gif) hardly any one knows any of them... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
A wise priest I worked for in my early days as an organist-choirmaster allowed me to choose the hymns, but with these stipulations:
Make sure the opening and closing hymns are familiar.
and
Never introduce more than one new hymn in any service.
It worked in that parish.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
"Jesus the Lord said" is unknown to me. It looks as if it might be Australian in origin. Apparently it is in Complete Mission Praise.
The original is in Urdu according to one hymnal I have it in. Source http://www.singingthefaithplus.org.uk/?p=1884
I've sung this one in English Methodist services. It's in the 1983 edition of Hymns and Psalms.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
A wise priest I worked for in my early days as an organist-choirmaster allowed me to choose the hymns, but with these stipulations:
Make sure the opening and closing hymns are familiar.
and
Never introduce more than one new hymn in any service.
It worked in that parish.
Lord, have mercy upon us, and incline our hearts to keep this law.
Nuff said!
PD
(Edited for stoopid tripe-o!)
[ 08. August 2013, 05:52: Message edited by: PD ]
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
A wise priest I worked for in my early days as an organist-choirmaster allowed me to choose the hymns, but with these stipulations:
Make sure the opening and closing hymns are familiar.
and
Never introduce more than one new hymn in any service.
It worked in that parish.
Sensible advice.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
A wise priest I worked for in my early days as an organist-choirmaster allowed me to choose the hymns, but with these stipulations:
Make sure the opening and closing hymns are familiar.
and
Never introduce more than one new hymn in any service.
It worked in that parish.
Sensible advice.
Works here - and our Sunday liturgy is probably very different from both of yours.
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by gog:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
"Jesus the Lord said" is unknown to me. It looks as if it might be Australian in origin. Apparently it is in Complete Mission Praise.
The original is in Urdu according to one hymnal I have it in. Source http://www.singingthefaithplus.org.uk/?p=1884
I've sung this one in English Methodist services. It's in the 1983 edition of Hymns and Psalms.
URC congregations have been singing it from at least 1975. It is actually a setting of the "I am" statements from St John's Gospel. Yes congregations can sing it quite easily.
Jengie
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Which would explain why "Jesus the Lord said" has been regularly turned out at every church I've regularly attended (now at 2x Methodist and 2x URC). Very much in the category of "really surprised it's considered unknown" for me.
When choosing hymns when I lead worship I do tend to go with ones I know, and by extension expect the congregation to have likely come across. Occasionally there's a hymn in the book that fits perfectly with the service, so I'd a) see if I can find it online to listen to the tune(s) and b) talk to the organist. Trying a new hymn or two is perfectly acceptable in most churches - indeed, one of the joys of people leading worship who are not the regular minister is to find out what hymns/songs they come up with. But, yes - start and finish with something well known is good advice (says he who picked an unknown hymn, albeit to a very well known tune, to open worship on Sunday ... all good rules have exceptions).
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*Leon*
Shipmate
# 3377
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
A wise priest I worked for in my early days as an organist-choirmaster allowed me to choose the hymns, but with these stipulations:
Make sure the opening and closing hymns are familiar.
and
Never introduce more than one new hymn in any service.
It worked in that parish.
A good rule.
But some organists also need to be told to always introduce more than one new hymn in any decade.
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
Each service should contain one 'lollipop' - a hymn that most/all will be able to join in with and enjoy. This needn't be restricting: you can have new words to a well-known tune.
I worked for a PP who wouldn't allow ANY repetition except, grudgingly, at Christmas and Easter, so have a pretty good grasp (!) of the content of the old EH, including all the war-horses.
As for the service where you didn't know the hymns, I sympathise. When a godchild of mine was confirmed in their local cathedral I went, with the other godparents (all churchgoers and/or church musicians) and their families, expecting to know or have heard most of the hymns but we were disappointed:
1. It was a 'Supermarket Sweep' type thing - bishop went up and down the aisle laying hands on candidates seated by the aisle: DREADFUL, undignified and tacky.
2. There was only one proper hymn, the rest were choruses. Of the choruses/modern worship songs, the other godparents and I had only encountered 3 between us.
3. Candidates from 2 evangelical parishes at the front seemed to know the lot, but there was no cathedral choir present to give the rest of us a lead or help. In short, the vast majority present were either floundering or completely silent which was a shame, especially given that the non-evangelical candidates outnumbered the rest by roughly 12-1. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Anyway, back in my own church the choir are away so August is the ideal time for war-horses: in the coming weeks we'll have Onward, Christian soldiers, Stand up for Jesus, The Church's one foundation, Lift up your hearts, etc, etc, etc
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Try
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# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It seems to me that there is a tiny number of hymns known to pretty much every English person, whether churchgoing or not: 'Abide with me', 'Guide me, O thou great redeemer', Jerusalem, most Christmas carols etc.
Yep. Though its "Guide me O thou great Jehovah" in our unexpurgated hymbook of course. Add "Amazing Grace" and "The Lord's my Shepherd" and that's about your lot.
I wouldn't say they know "most Christmas carols" either. Pretty much everyone will know "O come all ye faithful" and "Once in royal David's city" and "While Shepherd's watched their flocks by night" and "Away in a manger". They'll be familiar with the tune of "Hark the Herald angels sing" but maybe not all the words. A large minority will know or half-remember from school "Silent Night" and "The First Noel" and "O little town of Bethlehem" but probably nothing like all.
The list of hymns and carols "everyone knows" looks quite different on this side of the pond. As far as Christmas carols go, the list of carols I would expect Americans to know by heart includes "O Come All Ye Faithful" and "Away in a Manger", plus "Silent Night", "Do You Hear What I Hear", and "O Little Town Of Bethlehem". I would expect Americans to know the first verse of "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" as well as the tune. The same goes for "The First Noel". Over here "Once in Royal David's City" and "While Shepherd's watched their flocks by night" are quite obscure.
As far as other hymns every American knows I'm afraid that "Amazing Grace" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic" are pretty much it. This strikes me as a bit odd at first, since we're a more religious society than Great Britain, but we have much more denominational diversity, and no school assemblies.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
As far as other hymns every American knows I'm afraid that "Amazing Grace" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic" are pretty much it. This strikes me as a bit odd at first, since we're a more religious society than Great Britain, but we have much more denominational diversity, and no school assemblies.
I think part of the issue lies in the fact that an increasing number of Americans have only had contact with Christianity in "contemporary" churches. Amazing Grace is one of the few old hymns that tends to be ported over into such a situation.
If it were not for the contempo-trad divide, I think you could include some more hymns from our civic repertoire:
America the beautiful
My country 'tis of thee
Come, ye thankful people, come
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
"Away in a manger".
Although I think Americans usually sing that to Mueller, whereas the Brits to a man would expect the vastly superior Kirkpatrick.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
L'Organist, I sympathise - but speaking personally I am much more familiar with choruses and worship songs. Having now become part of a church which uses the New English Hymnal (and only the NEH), learning what are presumably hymns you would consider well-known is quite difficult for me. Some of them I really enjoy and find much easier to sing than modern worship songs (being a woman who sings alto), but certainly most Christians my age (20something) I know are only familiar with contemporary hymns. Amazing Grace, Wesley's well-known hymns and some Revivalist hymns being the exception, but certainly nothing from before Wesley's time.
[ 10. August 2013, 01:21: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Try:
As far as other hymns every American knows I'm afraid that "Amazing Grace" and "Battle Hymn of the Republic" are pretty much it. This strikes me as a bit odd at first, since we're a more religious society than Great Britain, but we have much more denominational diversity, and no school assemblies.
I think part of the issue lies in the fact that an increasing number of Americans have only had contact with Christianity in "contemporary" churches. Amazing Grace is one of the few old hymns that tends to be ported over into such a situation.
If it were not for the contempo-trad divide, I think you could include some more hymns from our civic repertoire:
America the beautiful
My country 'tis of thee
Come, ye thankful people, come
This is just IMHO of course, but I think of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" as an actual hymn with strong, patriotic associations in most Americans' minds. On the other hand I regard "My Country 'tis of Thee","America the Beautiful", and "God Bless America" as essentially secular patriotic songs with a bit of American civil religion thrown in. "Come Ye Thankful People Come" is a legitimate hymn, but I think it's known only to the subset of Americans who actually attend Thanksgiving services, which is a shrinking number. The Newark Thanksgiving service draws a crowd that fills our sanctuary, but it's put on by five or six churches and all the attendees are older. Some people (like my agnostic Dad) think of Thanksgiving as a purely secular holiday.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It seems to me that there is a tiny number of hymns known to pretty much every English person, whether churchgoing or not...
There is a slightly larger selection that will be known to casual churchgoers...
There is yet another group that would be known to most committed churchgoers...
I'm newly in the "worship group" (I hate wording that equates music with worship, as if nothing else is worship?) at the local TEC, for the "contemporary" service, which is to (suddenly) be primarily modern "worship music" but the leader said we could make suggestions for familiar songs to include in the song list for the year. I paged through the table of contents of the hymnal I grew up on, the 1940, and was surprised how few of the 500+ hymns I recognized. Really brought home how few hymns any one church sings regularly.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
L'Organist, I sympathise - but speaking personally I am much more familiar with choruses and worship songs. Having now become part of a church which uses the New English Hymnal (and only the NEH), learning what are presumably hymns you would consider well-known is quite difficult for me. Some of them I really enjoy and find much easier to sing than modern worship songs (being a woman who sings alto), but certainly most Christians my age (20something) I know are only familiar with contemporary hymns. Amazing Grace, Wesley's well-known hymns and some Revivalist hymns being the exception, but certainly nothing from before Wesley's time.
To be fair, the proportion of hymns in regular use that are prior to Wesley is relatively small, particularly in terms of music. Most "traditional" hymns are 19th or early 20th century. I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
Vaughan-Williams's arrangement comes with bloodcurdling warnings (insofaras indications on sheet music can curdle the blood) never under any circumstances to be played any faster than 66 bpm. This is quite slow. I suspect that if you started singing it in Gloucester Cathedral and followed his injunction to adjust the speed to the acoustics, you'd probably never finish.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
I associate that with remembrance day services.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
Coronation in the singular. It was arranged for 1953, although it could become a standard.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I am surprised that things like "All people that on earth do dwell" are not widely known, and that's from the 16th century.
A hymn I really do love, but can be hit and miss depending on how quickly/slowly the organist decides to play.
Vaughan-Williams's arrangement comes with bloodcurdling warnings (insofaras indications on sheet music can curdle the blood) never under any circumstances to be played any faster than 66 bpm. This is quite slow. I suspect that if you started singing it in Gloucester Cathedral and followed his injunction to adjust the speed to the acoustics, you'd probably never finish.
But that indication was for the specific occasion of HM QE2's Coronation in Westminster Abbey -- not what one might find elsewhere or at another time. ALL tempo indications must be judged according to the performance venue (of which there is infinite variability).
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Everything in Try's list was familiar to me, except for "Do you hear what I hear", which I had never heard of. Google throws this up for any others who want to discover the words and tune. To me, it sounded more like a solo than a congregational piece.
As for, "All people", I love it - especially with the trumpets!
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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georgiaboy
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# 11294
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Posted
There are some good choir arrangements of 'Do You Hear What I Hear.' (I've heard, but not performed them.)
However, it doesn't seem to me that it would work very well for most congregations.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
There are some good choir arrangements of 'Do You Hear What I Hear.' (I've heard, but not performed them.)
However, it doesn't seem to me that it would work very well for most congregations.
I have always been a regular churchgoer, and I could maybe make it through one verse of that by memory, with my fingers crossed.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
It's ubiquitous on the Christmas radio.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Signaller
Shipmate
# 17495
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given Evelyn Waugh's references to it, let alone the Coronation use, it surprises me that it is not well known in the UK. We sing it here several times in the course of the year.
Some confusion here - I think it was the USA that was alleged to be unfamiliar with the Old Hundredth. It is very common in the UK, in my (admittedly limited) experience.
Posts: 113 | From: Metroland | Registered: Jan 2013
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I was going from the post by arethosemyfeet, with given address as Hebrides - I took that as the UK. Regardless, it is one of my favourites and would not mind if it appeared more often on our hymn boards.
[ 13. August 2013, 11:32: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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