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Thread: Wedding Etiquette, Gratitude v. Greed
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
A text battle between guests and brides caught my eye.
In short, a couple gave the brides a gift which they did not appreciate; a wicker basket filled with foodstuff.
The brides sent texts expressing their dislike. This instigated a further, nasty exchange.
This response from one of the brides widened my eyes. quote:
Weddings are to make money for your future
I had thought wedding were to share the joy of your union.
I was also taught courtesy before all in gift receiving. Never expect to receive, never complain about what is given.
I find the brides discourteous and ridiculous.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Some people get married instead of just staying together - or get married (again) in a big party a year after their private wedding, specifically for the gifts.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
I thought it was a rather odd gift to give, but that doesn't excuse the exceptional behaviour of the bride. Thankfully I don't think this kind of attitude (the "making money for the future bit" - seriously, just go for a tighter wedding budget if you want that!) is normal in Australia yet, although I do see a bit of the "bride's big day" nonsense creeping in at a couple of the civil weddings I've been to.
It's okay not to like wedding gifts or birthday gifts that are inappropriate or duplicates. The better way to deal with that is to thank the person (with a nice thank you card for weddings) in the same way you would for the other more appreciated gifts, and at some later point discretely (i.e. so the original giver cannot possibly notice) pass on the unwanted ones by re-gifting or selling them.
Another way to go about it proactively is to use a gift registry, which is especially good for people getting married after one or both of them has been living independently for some years instead of getting married straight out of the parents' home. This would have been useful for my parents if they were around at that time, although I'm not really going to complain about getting a wok and a slow cooker 24 years later!
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
This is a Bridezilla response. The Wedding industrial complex has spent the last century convincing Brides that they need to spend a lot of money on the Wedding.
When the Bride has been planning her wedding since she was 12 to be "her" day, it can release monsters.
That said, for the infrequent weddings I go to, I often give cash if I don't know the right gift. I hate Wedding Registry and many people are getting married and merging two fully stocked households and do not need a waffle iron.
That said, publicizing the craziness in the emails is unseemly and exemplifies the rule that if you argue with a fool people may not be able to tell you apart. I would have been as irritated by the Bride's response but my intemperate private response I would have sent a check for 200 dollars to the Brides, tell them to give the gift to the nearest food bank or toss it in the trash and not bother to write or talk to me again.
The only excuse I can think of is that same sex couples may not have developed the immunity to the Wedding Industrial complex as Heterosexual couples. It could be a bumpy ride in the short term.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Funeral notices in the paper often have this instruction:
"In lieu of flowers, please donate to charity X."
IMHO, for any special occasion, if the host does not want gifts, it's best to make sure to be upfront about it in advance, preferably noted in the invitation.
[ 22. June 2013, 05:20: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
One more thing:
If you invite someone to a party where it is clear that he or she does not have to contribute either in bringing money or food, it is rude to mention afterwards, "Hey, that meal cost us $200."
The rule I was taught for weddings and funerals is that guests are on their own for alcoholic drinks (Except the wedding toast). The food should be free for the guests.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
One more thing:
If you invite someone to a party where it is clear that he or she does not have to contribute either in bringing money or food, it is rude to mention afterwards, "Hey, that meal cost us $200."
Definitely agree.
Mentioning any figure above $50 (that's even in Australia where food is expensive) also doubles up as an admission of stupidity.
[ 22. June 2013, 05:44: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
My Mum taught me that guests shoud spend approx equivalent to the cost of the wedding on their gift, as a guideline to how generous you can be. But she also taught me that it is rude for the bride and groom to expect this and never to be ungrateful for a gift. The women in the OP story acted appallingly. Even drawing other guests' attention to the gift was shockingly bad etiquette.
We were disppointed that one of our close friends spent only £10 on our wedding gift, but we didn't tell him that. Revenge came the following year when he married and we spent £100 on our gift to him. He never explicitly said so, but was clearly embarrassed by our generosity in comparison to his. Also, revenge through love felt a hundred times better than seeking to shame him publicly and our friendship remains strong.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291
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Posted
But why should you want revenge anyway? I thought giving a present was a nice thing to do but should never be expected. Perhaps your friend couldn't afford more, perhaps the £10 spent was a real stretch - but actually, it doesn't matter, a present is not about buying friendship.
I do not think it is appropriate to make someone feel embarrassed because a present has not lived up to someone's expectations.
You invite someone to a wedding for the pleasure of their company, not to see what you can get out of it.
M.
Posts: 2303 | From: Lurking in Surrey | Registered: Sep 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Even if you were trying to measure parity (which is dumb), there are all sorts of other things to factor in. How personally costly was it for them to attend the service?
My sister-in-law was living in Australia for a year when we got married. She and husband flew back for the ceremony - I suspect that cost them quite a bit; we didn't care about whether or not they gave us a present.
Or we could talk about the widow's mite. Giving in comparison to what the giver has shows far more about the heart than giving in comparison to what the recipient receives.
Lots of factors which the recipient doesn't necessarily know about. Be grateful they're there; see it as a good opportunity to throw a party for some friends. Any stuff you get given is an added extra.
[ 22. June 2013, 08:30: Message edited by: Custard ]
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Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Struck me that it is mentioned in the article that in some cultures monetary gifts are customary. Which reminded me of the beginning of The Godfather - but also of an African colleague who discussed with us how much she should give for a distant family member's funeral (apparently that was the custom, presumably form a time when losing the family breadwinner meant you really needed people to rally around and contribute to secure the family's future).
Don't know enough about the couple to know if this a relevant factor.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Sighthound
Shipmate
# 15185
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Posted
I just think commercialisation and greed have gradually led people to forget what marriage is actually about.
I know one young couple with a child who 'can't afford' to get married. I pointed out that a trip to the register office, including fees and a couple of strangers pulled from the street, can be done for a very modest price.
But no, nothing less than a footballer's wedding costing many thousands of pounds will do.
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Posts: 168 | From: England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
When we got married quite a lot of the friends we'd invited had just graduated or were still working on postgraduate degrees and didn't have a lot of money.
We made the mistake of asking for a lot of inexpensive things in our wedding list, thinking that most of our guests wouldn't be able to afford to buy elaborate gifts. This was good for our friends (one person got us a garlic press and lemon squeezer; that was fine, it was all she could afford) but some of our relatives just ignored the list and bought us things they thought we needed. Result; half a dozen casserole dishes and a food processor that sat in the kitchen cupboard for about ten years before we discovered the joys of homemade soup... We did say thank you nicely for the food processor, and never told the uncle who gave it how long it was before we used it.
[ 22. June 2013, 10:52: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
When my best friend got married, I got them a gift from their registry - Michael Fish fridge magnets ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) They were much loved and are still being used on their fridge, and the low cost didn't matter because it was something they wanted.
The food hamper is a bit of an odd wedding gift (I'd give a food hamper for a birthday or Christmas but not a wedding) but it's not terrible/rude/inappropriate. My best friend would have preferred it over the very expensive crystal she received which she never uses and feels embarrassed over the price of it.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
If people expect cash gifts to cover the cost of the meal and leave a little over to "make money for their future", they should be completely upfront about it and sell tickets to the wedding rather than send out invitations. Then at least the "guests" aren't fooled into thinking that they're being offered hospitality. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I have just been to the wedding of a couple who have lived together for a while and so have a fully stocked house.
The invite said something along the lines of - that because of living together we do not need anything except the pleasure of your company if you do wish to give us a present, then money or a voucher from John Lewis would be lovely.
We gave £50 – it cost us about £400 for new clothes, travel and drinks at the do (it was an expensive bar). We are on a limited budget £50 was what we could afford. And I got a very lovely letter of thank you afterwards, both for our gift and for coming to the day.
It has never occurred to me that I should have to cover the cost of the invite. I don't earn a lot and have family to keep. If soembody wants me to pay for my own meal then it needs to be a place I can afford.
If I choose to pick a very expensive venue for my wedding then that is my decision I can't expect my guests to be abe to afford it.
It also means that the people who have the money to spend on the largest weddings get the most presents. That hardly seems fair on those who are doing things on a budget and probably need things more.. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
It's quite an interesting topic of debate /etiquette. My fiancee and I will be getting married in a couple of years due to study commitments and medical reasons, but we are planning only to ask guests to bring themselves & a plate of food. (Yes, we are defintely doing things frugally!!) If they want to give anything, we are just going to ask for monetary gifts towards the honeymoon as both of us pretty much have everything we need to set up home ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 22. June 2013, 12:41: Message edited by: Yam-pk ]
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The invitation to the most recent wedding I attended featured a request that there be no wedding presents (as both bride and groom were will into their 30s and established) but a cheque to a Toronto hospital's teaching programme where they bride had been treated the previous year, was requested (or to a charity of one's choice). This particular fund reaped over $10,000 from the wedding, we all had a good time, nobody worried about presents, we got tax receipts, and timely thank-you notes from the bride and groom.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Also I didn’t think the original gift that started the furore was wrong. I actually thought it was a bit different and individual – unlike the 4 electric meat carving knives I received when I got married (and I am a vegetarian)
If it had in it the things that the giver said it did, there were some interesting items. Plus the wicker picnic baskets are not cheap either. I thought that quite romantic for a wedding.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Apparently the average wedding costs £22,000. Anyone spending that much on getting married has probably left rationality behind long since.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
One of the most interesing wedding presents we recieved was a bottle of port and a whole round of stilton cheese. But then that person knew us really well
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
But why should you want revenge anyway? I thought giving a present was a nice thing to do but should never be expected. Perhaps your friend couldn't afford more, perhaps the £10 spent was a real stretch - but actually, it doesn't matter, a present is not about buying friendship.
I do not think it is appropriate to make someone feel embarrassed because a present has not lived up to someone's expectations.
You invite someone to a wedding for the pleasure of their company, not to see what you can get out of it.
M.
Fair enough. I am not claiming the moral high ground particularly. On the other hand, I do think that some sort of gift is generally expected when a person is invited to a celebration - birthday, wedding, dinner party or what have you - unless otherwise waived on the invitation. It's just good manners not to show up empty handed.
Of course we value our friend's friendship more than his gift - and in fact we did at the time of his wedding have more disposable means than he had at the time of ours(the fact that shaming him gave me an evil frisson of satisfaction, was a side issue). There is more to it than I put into my original story. He had made snide comments that our suggested gifts were ostentatiously pricey (a matter of opinion. Depends whether you want your kitchen pans to last 3 years or a lifetime I suppose) and there was an element of judgmentalism to his vanishingly small contribution.
BUT anyway, the point is that it is wrong to be stingey and it is wrong to complain when you don't get lavished with cash and diamonds. We should all value one another far more highly than that.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by angelfish:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
But why should you want revenge anyway? I thought giving a present was a nice thing to do but should never be expected. Perhaps your friend couldn't afford more, perhaps the £10 spent was a real stretch - but actually, it doesn't matter, a present is not about buying friendship.
I do not think it is appropriate to make someone feel embarrassed because a present has not lived up to someone's expectations.
You invite someone to a wedding for the pleasure of their company, not to see what you can get out of it.
M.
Fair enough. I am not claiming the moral high ground particularly. On the other hand, I do think that some sort of gift is generally expected when a person is invited to a celebration - birthday, wedding, dinner party or what have you - unless otherwise waived on the invitation. It's just good manners not to show up empty handed.
Of course we value our friend's friendship more than his gift - and in fact we did at the time of his wedding have more disposable means than he had at the time of ours(the fact that shaming him gave me an evil frisson of satisfaction, was a side issue). There is more to it than I put into my original story. He had made snide comments that our suggested gifts were ostentatiously pricey (a matter of opinion. Depends whether you want your kitchen pans to last 3 years or a lifetime I suppose) and there was an element of judgmentalism to his vanishingly small contribution.
BUT anyway, the point is that it is wrong to be stingey and it is wrong to complain when you don't get lavished with cash and diamonds. We should all value one another far more highly than that.
There is a difference between being stingy and not having a lot of disposable income. Most of the weddings I've attended as an adult, I've only brought a card because that's all I could afford. Seriously, it's bad manners to be poor now?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
One of my daughters wanted to suggest on the invitations that contributions to a money tree would be welcome. I put my foot down, not only at a request for money, but that it is impolite to ask for presents. Most people take a present to a wedding, but that should be the donor's choice, not an obligation. Some may choose to give money, Auntie Molly may prefer an exquisite lace cloth and Uncle Fred may prefer a wicker basket filled with goodies. Gifts are given with love and should be received in the same spirit.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
What Bib said.
As a chid I was taught never ask or expect to receive presents and be grateful for what you do get..
Why should people now think that getting gifts is a 'right'
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
But why should you want revenge anyway? I thought giving a present was a nice thing to do but should never be expected. Perhaps your friend couldn't afford more, perhaps the £10 spent was a real stretch - but actually, it doesn't matter, a present is not about buying friendship.
I do not think it is appropriate to make someone feel embarrassed because a present has not lived up to someone's expectations.
You invite someone to a wedding for the pleasure of their company, not to see what you can get out of it.
M.
Exactly. Which goes to the point of the Wedding Industrial Complex. If one didn't get caught up into this ridiculous consumerist feeding frenzy, one wouldn't be so agitated about an inexpensive gift. If you're going to turn it into a quid-pro-quo transaction rather than a joyous celebration you might as well go to Vegas and get married in a stripper dress by an Elvis impersonator.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Struck me that it is mentioned in the article that in some cultures monetary gifts are customary. Which reminded me of the beginning of The Godfather - but also of an African colleague who discussed with us how much she should give for a distant family member's funeral (apparently that was the custom, presumably form a time when losing the family breadwinner meant you really needed people to rally around and contribute to secure the family's future).
Don't know enough about the couple to know if this a relevant factor.
They are Canadian, reference research and old attitudes, not cultural custom. Not proof, but indicative of "standard Canada."
But the broader issue of culture, custom and etiquette is interesting as well. My family moved and travelled a bit when I was a child. As a guest, one did one's best to conform to the host. As a host, one did one's best to accommodate the guest. We were expected to be gracious throughout. Part of this is not complaining when the other party failed this standard.
IMO, only when both parties are of the same culture is it even potentially reasonable to have expectations.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
One of my daughters wanted to suggest on the invitations that contributions to a money tree would be welcome. I put my foot down, not only at a request for money, but that it is impolite to ask for presents.
I don't know, depends how it's done. A money tree seems aggressive, like if there aren't enough "leaves" it's sitting there accusing everyone?
But I've seen gift list suggestions (what else is registration?) include "contribute to our Honeymoon in Hawaii" fund. In the days of fancy wedding china, a couple of plates or saucers was the semi-anonymous (in the sense no one will remember a year later who gave it) gift you gave as not a close friend of the couple. Cash can serve that function.
I've seen the box or simple basket for money (given in envelopes) on the side table used to put gifts on - just another box, not a decoration. I have no problem with that.
But kids who want just money instead of gifts are cheating themselves of the pleasure of picking up an item 20 years later and remembering who gave it to you. Money has no such memories.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the average wedding costs £22,000. Anyone spending that much on getting married has probably left rationality behind long since.
Is it really up there already? It was only a year ago IIRC that it crossed the £20k threshold. And when you bear in mind the fact that many people refuse to have anything to do with the Wedding Industry, the cost of weddings of those that do must be somewhere in the £30-40k+ area on average. Grim, eh?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
My personal experience and my Google-fu tell me that cash gifts range from acceptable to de rigeur at Chinese, Jewish, Hindu, Filipino and many other cultures' weddings and major events. In some cases the etiquette is to give an amount equal to the estimated cost of the guest's meal, etc. Sometimes guests pay money to dance with the bride or groom.
I also have a hunch that unthinking givers and ungrateful couples exist in every culture.
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]
There is a difference between being stingy and not having a lot of disposable income. Most of the weddings I've attended as an adult, I've only brought a card because that's all I could afford. Seriously, it's bad manners to be poor now?
You do what you think appropriate. In my experience it is customary to give gifts when you are invited to a wedding (regardless, incidentally, of whether you are able to accept the invitation). I often buy a wedding gift even when I am not invited to the wedding if it is somebody I know well. It isn't a matter of quid pro quo, but is a way of wishing the couple well. The "spend on them as much as they spend on your meal" rule I take as a guideline on avoiding social embarrassment on both sides and to be honest, i rarely spend that much -mainly because venues ramp up the cost of the meal to ridiculous heights when the "W" word is mentioned and, as other people have said, I might already be spending a lot on clothes for the wedding and getting there / staying overnight / hen party (not so many of those these days) etc
I thought that it would be obvious that what I said is caveated with the need to spend within the limits of your income. If you can't afford a gift, then I am sure your cards are meaningfully and lovingly written, and i hope accepted in that spirit. One of my favourite wedding gifts was homemade and probaly cost very little in money but a lot in time and thought.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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cross eyed bear
Shipmate
# 13977
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Posted
When we got married, we chose not to have a flashy do as the idea of spending thousands on one day really didn't appeal to us. We had a full day's festivities, though, with tonnes of food.
We were also established, had both lived independently and together, and didn't need anything to start us on married life. A lot of kitchen stuff had come from an old lady needing to move into a home, but if it had lasted that well for 30 odd years, we saw no reason to replace it.
A large number of our guests came from abroad.
On the invites for those from abroad, we basically wrote that we didn't expect any gift as the effort they had gone to to join us was gift enough. If they still wanted to give something, either practical help at the wedding or a donation to new living room furniture. Those living closer were also assured that their presence was the best gift, but if anyone still wished to give something, either host a guest from abroad, bake us a cake, help in some practical way, or give a donation towards new furniture.
We had a fabulous day with 70 guests.
One friend sung us a solo, another made the wedding cake, another hosted guests, another took on the transport of other guests. 2 teenagers acted as waiters, others looked out for the band and food arriving, one was our photographer, one was our interpreter.
Some helped decorate the church, where we also ate and danced, the day before, some washed up afterwards. The amount of help we received meant that the day's celebrations went without a hitch, and that we were able to really celebrate with our many guests. The guests also said very positive things about the day.
Looking at the photos of the day, I am reminded again and again of each person's contributions; the three people who set the tables, and the funny things which happened. My aunt trying to make jelly. The conversations we had folding napkins. The musicians practising. Guests arriving and the people who drove them. The surreal happenings during the official photo shoot. The person behind each cake. The guest who made the window boxes we used for decoration his personal responsibility. The friend who MCed so well.
Some still wished to give us gifts, ranging from €20 to €200 depending basically on what they could afford. We put this towards a fab wall unit for our living room, which we expect to get at least 20 years use out of.
We all had a wonderful day, with extra special personalised memories. I hope no one felt pressured to give more than he could ( or even to give). Every time I look at the photos or sit in the living room, I'm reminded of being surrounded by special people on a very special day.
And we don't have a surfeit of waffle irons :-)
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"One false step in my direction, you'd better believe in the resurrection" Stillgoe & Skellern's "Mrs Beamish"
Posts: 120 | From: Southern Germany | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They are Canadian, reference research and old attitudes, not cultural custom. Not proof, but indicative of "standard Canada."
Um, NO. That's like extrapolating from Belfast to "standard UK". ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Anyway, since this is a tiff between individuals, I'm not sure how extrapolatable (?) this is to culture as a whole.
IMO, both guest and bride were in the wrong. The guest's gift choice went beyond odd and could see the border of insulting. Peanut butter? Marshmallow fluff? For the monetary value of the "gift basket" the guest could have purchased two cheap wineglasses and no one would have batted an eye. The bride might have huffed privately about the price but I think she would have shut up and put the wineglasses away.
The bride, of course, was wrong to say anything critical about the gift beyond private commentary. Graciousness ought to have prevailed.
But while I think she was wrong to use this gift as her example, she does have a point about change in wedding culture and gift expectations. Precious few weddings are between two young virgins who have always lived at home and will be setting up a household. Couples these days don't need stuff for a household, they've got all that already. They do tend to appreciate monetary gifts, in part to defray wedding expenses.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the average wedding costs £22,000. Anyone spending that much on getting married has probably left rationality behind long since.
Is it really up there already? It was only a year ago IIRC that it crossed the £20k threshold. And when you bear in mind the fact that many people refuse to have anything to do with the Wedding Industry, the cost of weddings of those that do must be somewhere in the £30-40k+ area on average. Grim, eh?
I think they would be averages for just the so-called "Wedding Industry" weddings from a couple of different surveys, and not comprehensive stats covering all industry and non-industry weddings. How would the industry sources reporting those figures have any knowledge of the amounts spent at businesses not specifically dealing with weddings?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
IMO, both guest and bride were in the wrong. The guest's gift choice went beyond odd and could see the border of insulting. Peanut butter? Marshmallow fluff? For the monetary value of the "gift basket" the guest could have purchased two cheap wineglasses and no one would have batted an eye. The bride might have huffed privately about the price but I think she would have shut up and put the wineglasses away.
First of all, according to the article, the bride specifically arranged the items in the photo to highlight the marshmallow fluff and other sillier items. But the basket included a number of gourmet items as well that could be used to make a delicious meal. I found the basket and particularly the card (which explained the fluff) creative and fun.
But that's the nature of gift-giving, isn't it? It's always a bit of a crap-shoot whether the gift will hit it's mark or not. I'm sure all of us have received gifts that we thought hideous, but hopefully we were able to see beyond the misstep to the heart behind it. Just as I imagine we've all been invited to weddings where the food or the decor or music was not precisely to our liking. Not viewing celebrations/ gift-giving as a quid-pro-quo transaction helps everyone to approach that with a lot more grace.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
]I think they would be averages for just the so-called "Wedding Industry" weddings from a couple of different surveys, and not comprehensive stats covering all industry and non-industry weddings. How would the industry sources reporting those figures have any knowledge of the amounts spent at businesses not specifically dealing with weddings?
In fact, I would go even further and suggest that the sources making those claims (usually wedding-industry based) have no motive to gather info on thriftier weddings (which, as you note, generally take place outside of marketed "wedding venues"). Touting a higher figure boosts the feeding frenzy and just keeps the gravy train coming.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Apparently the average wedding costs £22,000. Anyone spending that much on getting married has probably left rationality behind long since.
Is it really up there already? It was only a year ago IIRC that it crossed the £20k threshold. And when you bear in mind the fact that many people refuse to have anything to do with the Wedding Industry, the cost of weddings of those that do must be somewhere in the £30-40k+ area on average. Grim, eh?
I think they would be averages for just the so-called "Wedding Industry" weddings from a couple of different surveys, and not comprehensive stats covering all industry and non-industry weddings. How would the industry sources reporting those figures have any knowledge of the amounts spent at businesses not specifically dealing with weddings?
Breakdown of figures here. These are "as reported by readers of Bride magazine". I suppose it depends to what extent the readers of that august organ actually participate in the Wedding Industry.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
In (slight) defense of the brides, I was taught as a child wedding gifts are for the purpose of setting up the couple, that's why the gifts are dishes and flatware and cooking gear and bedding, not books and recordings and clothes and jewelry etc. I used to fuss at having to help pay the cost of setting up other people's houses but no one helps set up mine, to which my grandma responded if you don't marry you are supposed to live with a family member, not set up a household.
So the idea of wedding gifts setting the couple up for the future is ancient. What's new is that many couples don't need dishes and bedding and cookware, they already have it all. So the concept of setting them up shifts to cash for the honeymoon (a common request) or for a downpayment on a house (less common). Or just cash.
Also, some of the articles say "She's Italian and her bride is Croatian. They've never been to a wedding where guests didn't give cash...Mason was one of only two guests who didn't gift at least $150 cash (the other gave a present in addition to cash)." story on the spec This sounds like a culture clash.
"She says Mason's gift was the laughingstock of the wedding. At a post-wedding pool party the next day, friends and family stopped by the living room to get a look at the basket that's still on display in their home." [same cite] If they display the basket as a joke and their friends agree it's a joke, that confirms the culture clash. Maybe in some social strata of Italy and Croatia wedding gifts are traditionally cash? Some shipmates should know. Back in the 60s a friend dated a USA gal from a German-heritage family and said at weddings they attended there was always a money tree (and champagne was served to bride and groom only, the guests got beer). Different culture.
Which does not excuse horrible manners. Both sides went a bit over the line in the email exchange.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
In (slight) defense of the brides, I was taught as a child wedding gifts are for the purpose of setting up the couple, that's why the gifts are dishes and flatware and cooking gear and bedding, not books and recordings and clothes and jewelry etc. I used to fuss at having to help pay the cost of setting up other people's houses but no one helps set up mine, to which my grandma responded if you don't marry you are supposed to live with a family member, not set up a household.
So the idea of wedding gifts setting the couple up for the future is ancient. What's new is that many couples don't need dishes and bedding and cookware, they already have it all. So the concept of setting them up shifts to cash for the honeymoon (a common request) or for a downpayment on a house (less common). Or just cash.
Also, some of the articles say "She's Italian and her bride is Croatian. They've never been to a wedding where guests didn't give cash...Mason was one of only two guests who didn't gift at least $150 cash (the other gave a present in addition to cash)." story on the spec This sounds like a culture clash.
"She says Mason's gift was the laughingstock of the wedding. At a post-wedding pool party the next day, friends and family stopped by the living room to get a look at the basket that's still on display in their home." [same cite] If they display the basket as a joke and their friends agree it's a joke, that confirms the culture clash. Maybe in some social strata of Italy and Croatia wedding gifts are traditionally cash? Some shipmates should know. Back in the 60s a friend dated a USA gal from a German-heritage family and said at weddings they attended there was always a money tree (and champagne was served to bride and groom only, the guests got beer). Different culture.
Which does not excuse horrible manners. Both sides went a bit over the line in the email exchange.
I'm more than willing to buy the premise that cash giving vs. a gift basket was a culture clash. But do we really want to suggest that holding a gift up for public ridicule is an essential feature of either Italian or Croatian culture?
[ 22. June 2013, 16:38: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
One of the most touching weddings I've been to was a young couple who weren't well off, had very little, didn't ask for presents at all (the company of freinds and family was enough) but if you felt you wanted to bless them, then you could do so by giving to the latest disaster fund appeal.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
It's the sort of magazine they leave lying around in dentists' waiting rooms. Somehow after reading it, root canal surgery seems less painful.
Yes, I agree, it's pretty rubbishy as a sampling technique. Though figures elsewhere are not that different. I'd love to say it was all lies, but as a singer I've been at weddings where stupendous amounts of £oot are clearly being spent.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Ana
Apprentice
# 11667
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Posted
I'm absolutely stunned at the thought of having to give a £100-£200 gift at a wedding. Do people really do that?
That would put me off attending ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Posts: 17 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
Mr Shrew and I are getting married early next year. My mum was adamant that gift lists are essential, but we both feel really uncomfortable with soliciting gifts, especially after attending a friend's wedding last year where the gift list was over promoted to the point of vulgarity.
Mum has the anxiety that we will receive fourteen toasters if we don't supply a list. I think it is unlikely but i don't really know that there is an answer which will satisfy us both.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Mr Shrew and I are getting married early next year. My mum was adamant that gift lists are essential, but we both feel really uncomfortable with soliciting gifts, especially after attending a friend's wedding last year where the gift list was over promoted to the point of vulgarity.
Mum has the anxiety that we will receive fourteen toasters if we don't supply a list. I think it is unlikely but i don't really know that there is an answer which will satisfy us both.
Vouchers? Although now it's taking a chance, since the store you choose might go into administration by the time you get married! Somewhere like Ikea should be OK though, and they sell everything - including food if you run out of ideas
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
It shows how times and expectations change.
When my parents married in the austerity of post war UK their favourite present was a basket of tinned food.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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angelfish
Shipmate
# 8884
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Mr Shrew and I are getting married early next year. My mum was adamant that gift lists are essential, but we both feel really uncomfortable with soliciting gifts, especially after attending a friend's wedding last year where the gift list was over promoted to the point of vulgarity.
Mum has the anxiety that we will receive fourteen toasters if we don't supply a list. I think it is unlikely but i don't really know that there is an answer which will satisfy us both.
You could set up a gift list, but make it clear on the invite that you do not expect everyone to buy a gift from it. The disaster appeal/charity gifts thing mentioned above has some merit, but I think sometimes people can be too apologetic for celebrating and that sets an unfortunate tone. My sister attended a wedding where before lunch (which was fairly austere by most wedding standards) , the groom gave a lengthy homily on and prayer for the starving of the world. Nobody really felt like eating or celebrating after that. Time and place.
Another friend who lived overseas but married here, so didn't want to take crates of stuff back after the day, asked for cash but gave people three options of what it should be spent on: the honeymoon, adding feminine touches to their flat (formerly his) or something else that I now forget. It felt better giving money knowing it would be put towards a particular use, rather than having the vague idea it might all be pissed up the wall on a massive drug-fuelled bender the following week.
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"As God is my witness, I WILL kick Bishop Brennan up the arse!"
Posts: 1017 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
When we got married - which was a long time ago admittedly - we made a list for the reason that we didn’t want 14 toasters. Though as mentioned upthread it didn’t stop us receiving 4 electric carving knives, in a vegetarian household!!
But we put on our list thinks like garlic crushers and washing up bowls and as we had both had houses but kitted out from oddments of things others were getting rid of. So we asked for a dinner service, but one that could be bought as plates or even saucers individually.
There were items from a couple of pounds upwards. One very generous elderly aunt bought us the whole set of plates and another guest, who was on a tight budget, bought us one saucer and it was fine by us.
But there was nothing on the list that even approached the cost of feeding a guest
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
It is mildly amusing to see an argument about traditional customs and practice for a same-sex wedding. I guess the Canadians have had a decade to develop antique customs and debates about usage. ;-)
Okay, which one of you is the Bridezilla? :-)
[ 22. June 2013, 19:09: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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