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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: On Leaving a Church
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
So,
We've 99% decided to go. Final straw came last night when we realised it was severely affecting our family. Reasons are probably commonplace:
1. Controlling, intrusive leadership.
2. Unhealthy works, suffering and guilt culture.
3. Our joy in Christ has turned into a stressful, burdensome treadmill of church programmes.
The reasons aren't really the cause for this discussion. What we're struggling with is how to go.
It's a smallish church (about 50) and we have friends which I know we'll continue to see. The problem is how to broach it with the Pastor and his Wife, who in line with their controlling and inward looking personality types are going to take it hard.
Any advice or experience out there?
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
The less said, the better. I'm not sure how it works where you are, but very frequently here the church you are joining will request a letter of transfer from your old church on your behalf. If anybody does ask you, just say you've been thinking about it for a while and finally decided to take the plunge. You'll miss them, and they'll be in your thoughts and prayers. Resist the urge to make a point.
My two cents, anyway.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Stoker;
I had to do that 18 years ago. I just resigned and walked away, heart broken, this act also cost me a relationship but I had nearly 2 decades invested in this church and then it went sideways .
Hang on to your family and look for a supportive caring church blessings
PaulBC
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's hard. It depends on the level/intensity of the relationship you have with the leaders but when we left a church after 18 years involvement, I found that it wasn't possible to go without explanation. Assure them it isn't personal.
Beyond that, it's tricky to extricate oneself without getting into an argument. Avoid that at all costs.
The break itself will be tough but once you've done it you'll feel a load lifted off your shoulders.
It's also remarkably quick the adjustment process may take. We settled in somewhere more convivial within a matter of weeks and without a great deal of shopping-around.
Other people's experience will be different. The reasons may be familiar but no two experiences will be alike.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sarkycow
La belle Dame sans merci
# 1012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I'm not sure how it works where you are, but very frequently here the church you are joining will request a letter of transfer from your old church on your behalf.
Really????
Kids get files etc. transferred when they change schools round here (UK). The idea that your church has the authority or right to do that to adults is mind-boggling.
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“Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end of the bar.”
Posts: 10787 | Registered: Jul 2001
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mrs whibley
Shipmate
# 4798
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Assure them it isn't personal.
Even if it is?
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I long for a faith that is gloriously treacherous - Mike Yaconelli
Posts: 942 | From: North Lincolnshire | Registered: Aug 2003
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
A Churchless Faith by Alan Jamieson has lots of stories about people leaving church and finding other expressions of their faith.
I simply stopped going for a year or so. I afraid to say that hardly anyone seemed to noticed. I may do it again when I finished my tour of duty on PCC.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Hmmm ... fair point, mrs whibley. I s'pose it would depend. If it was personal then yes, we should say so, but it depends on the context and the quality of the relationship.
I'm not sure that, 'We're leaving your church because we find you controlling and intrusive,' would help much but there are circumstances in which that would be appropriate.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I am rather reluctantly thinking about the matter. The church I attend has two services. One is too early for me and features a music program I feel is ambitious, competitive and perhaps pushy. The other is a non-traditional service later Sunday morning. I usually attend the latter, although I am not crazy about its music program either; there are many traditional hymns I enjoy and miss. Now there is talk of moving the non-traditional service to Sunday evening, incorporating a meal and Bible study. I find this prospect unappealing; I am a dieter and I try to exert control over what I eat. (Why should so many church events involve food?) On top of all this, there is a plan eventually to build a new building elsewhere in town to replace the present building (much-beloved but aging), which might be a transportation problem. Of course, I do like many of the people.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
We had the same experience, after 19 years in a particular church. The church was coasting - same singing, same services year about, just about no outreach or "mission"...but it all blew up when a lady was called to the parish (this was UCC, which had been ordaining women for the best part of a generation by that time)
She seemed pretty decent - cheerful, newly ordained at 50 after a long time of signing for the deaf and other parish works. But the ladies of the parish felt threatened and ganged up. Accusations and insinuations flew. Changes might happen!
In the end, she was booted, while the presbytery basically washed its hands, while bleating. We were seen as "on her side", which was difficult. Once one of the senior ladies of the UCW declared that the minister had committed the sin of "bringing the wrong kind of people into the church", we simply left, without saying much more, and went back to our Anglican roots. (the two churches are less than a kilometer apart, physically, but farther spiritually/theologically.)
There are several who still chat amicably, while others simply do not see us. One meets people where they are, not where one would like them to be.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I'm not sure how it works where you are, but very frequently here the church you are joining will request a letter of transfer from your old church on your behalf.
Really????
Kids get files etc. transferred when they change schools round here (UK). The idea that your church has the authority or right to do that to adults is mind-boggling.
Really! You have never heard of it! You better just hop over to your local URC and ask them. Seriously done it twice personally and know enough to expect to do it again when I move. How do you know if someone is confirmed unless you do this sort of checking?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All terribly wise, And it's always personal. Bless them and go. They don't want or need explanations, none work.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
How do you know if someone is confirmed unless you do this sort of checking?
I think my current (TEC) place might have asked, and had they asked, I would have told them which Bishop confirmed me, and in which year. I know that I have used said Bishop's name on one occasion in the last decade - but can't remember exactly why.
I am pretty certain that the previous two (C of E) places didn't ask, and equally certain that my current place didn't actually check anything.
I can tell you where my certificate was three house moves ago. I could guess where it was now, but it might take a while for me to put my hands on it.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Jengie Jon: How do you know if someone is confirmed unless you do this sort of checking?
Don't people have a document themselves that shows that they're confirmed?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I'm not sure how it works where you are, but very frequently here the church you are joining will request a letter of transfer from your old church on your behalf.
Really????
Kids get files etc. transferred when they change schools round here (UK). The idea that your church has the authority or right to do that to adults is mind-boggling.
Really! You have never heard of it! You better just hop over to your local URC and ask them. Seriously done it twice personally and know enough to expect to do it again when I move. How do you know if someone is confirmed unless you do this sort of checking?
Jengie
I have never, ever seen or heard of this happening in the UK. Ever. Things like confirmation are taken in good faith (unless one is going for ordination or something).
I was aware that it happened in some churches in the US but find it fairly horrifying that it's the norm.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
How unbelievable! I mean, what an outrage! Nobody who counts would dream of asking me and anybody who did as some kind of a check would get complete silence and an unbroken stare.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Methodists routinely 'transfer' their membership from one Methodist church to another. It requires some form of contact between churches.
If you're switching just because you've moved house, etc., the transferal is straightforward. But if you're switching because you have some issues with a particular minister or congregation it's slightly more delicate. I know a woman who had to have a chat with the receiving minister before her transfer was formalised. I don't think it offended her at all; it's just the Methodist way. And she's a woman with no problems about expressing herself.
Of course, if you switch denominations that's a different matter. The Methodist membership system doesn't carry over to any other denomination, so I don't think a formal process of transferal would work in that case. Non-Methodists don't magically become members as soon as they start attending a Methodist church, but they'll probably be encouraged to go through the process at some point.
[ 05. July 2013, 23:52: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
The last time anyone asked for proof of confirmation, I was getting married. In my church, members do not marry unless confirmed.
I long ago lost my confirmation and baptismal certificate; I have no need of them at this time in my life - but if I did, I know where I was baptised and where I was confirmed. A simple request to the parishes concerned either by me or my priest would get a response.
Some years ago, I asked my priest if I needed a letter of introduction to a priest in the country I was going to visit and stay for a while. He said not.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I honestly wasn't sure where Stoker resides. The spelling of programme and realise give me a clue, but are not definite.
The church letter of transfer isn't a nice, thick school file. It's simply a letter stating that somebody was a member somewhere already. This relatively painless procedure certainly does help in situations like the OP. What does it get you? Almost invariably an escape clause from whatever new member induction programs the other church might have, particularly when staying within a denom or its close brethren denoms (e.g. Lutheran to Episcopalian or Methodist or Presbyterian).
Don't want a letter to be sent? Don't tell the new place where you went before.
ETA (Having read Pete's post): We have a proof of baptism request at our church right now for a former member who is marrying at a Catholic church out of state. Also, I know this state will accept church records (for birthdate as recorded at baptism, for instance) in lieu of other evidence.
[ 06. July 2013, 00:01: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
I have found the book Necessary Endings useful in planning and executing a difficult change.
It's written from a business perspective, but has applications to other life situations. The author, Henry Cloud, advocates aiming to make every departure a positive experience for both parties, so that you leave on good terms (as much as possible -some situations will be more difficult than others.)
If there is a poor fit of personalities/skills between you and an organisation, you may not be doing the others any favours by staying around when you're unhappy - and there should be a diplomatic way of framing this so that minimal offence is given. You never know when your paths will cross with a given person again, or whether you might one day be in a position to need their help!
It helps to have a clear idea of what sort of thing you are moving to, so you can emphasise the importance of the change to you, and your determination to follow through. ("We feel God is calling us to church x because of y.")
Another recommendation from the book is to make a list of the positive things (relationships, skills utilised, knowledge gained) to celebrate about the position you're leaving, as well as negatives to grieve/let go of/avoid repeating in future (the negatives are for your own benefit, not the other party's, but the positives may be useful to share in order to make your departure a friendly one).
Posts: 235 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stoker:
1. Controlling, intrusive leadership.
2. Unhealthy works, suffering and guilt culture.
3. Our joy in Christ has turned into a stressful, burdensome treadmill of church programmes.
...
What we're struggling with is how to go.
Hmmm. These suggest a military approach to me:
1. Sit 'em down.
2. Tell 'em what you're gonna tell 'em.
3. Then tell 'em.
4. Wrap things up by telling 'em what you told 'em.
Then stand up, thank them for their attention, and LEAVE. Do not engage in dialog, answer questions, or enable any guilt-tripping behavior on their part. They were controlling and intrusive in the duration, at the end it is the cause of your departure, and there is no need to endure further controlling and intrusive behavior.
[Exeunt.]
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarkycow:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
I'm not sure how it works where you are, but very frequently here the church you are joining will request a letter of transfer from your old church on your behalf.
Really????
Kids get files etc. transferred when they change schools round here (UK). The idea that your church has the authority or right to do that to adults is mind-boggling.
Really! You have never heard of it! You better just hop over to your local URC and ask them. Seriously done it twice personally and know enough to expect to do it again when I move. How do you know if someone is confirmed unless you do this sort of checking?
Jengie
I have never, ever seen or heard of this happening in the UK. Ever. Things like confirmation are taken in good faith (unless one is going for ordination or something).
I was aware that it happened in some churches in the US but find it fairly horrifying that it's the norm.
Transferring your "lines" is part and parcel of the Church of Scotland and I'm sure it has been for over a century. It's just what happens when you switch churches. I've done it for several house moves and once when I left an unhappy church situation. However, that unhappy situation was public knowledge (it had been in the local newspapers) and I was one of a number of people moving churches, so no explanation was needed.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
"Letters of Commendation" are/were normal practice in the Plymouth Brethren, for those moving house or even visitors on holiday. Scriptural basis is claimed from (at least) Romans 16:1: "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae".
In the more Exclusive Brethren at least, a person not having such a letter would be debarred from the Lord's Table. This is not seen so much as a matter of discipline, but of good order. I suspect something similar may obtain within the Strict Baptists and other groups who do not maintain an "Open Table".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think all this transfer business and letters and referrals and so on depends on how it's done.
I find it hard to believe, for instance, that the process that Jengie Jon describes in URC and Church of Scotland and other presbyterian or mixed presbyterian/congregationalist settings has anything to do with heavy-shepherding.
Similarly with the less formal - but still apparent - arrangement that appears to exist among UK Baptists.
Even in the CofE I've known vicars have a quick chat about people who are moving parishes and so on - but this isn't a matter of checking people's credentials and what have you, often it's simply to check up on how the person's doing - if they're elderly etc - or whether there are any particular pastoral issues.
So the mileage varies.
I get the impression, though, that right across the board in the US things are done a lot more formally in terms of transfers and so on than they are in the UK.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
As for letters of transfer - well, its been common in some Baptist circles for years. Church Secretaries used to have two little books with tear off slips - slips were sent to a church when someone came to you, slips were sent to another church when someone went to them.
Most BUGB churches don't take people by transfer but by acceptance after interview and prayer.
Look at it from another POV. If, as a minister, you suddenly get a couple in your church who make it plain that they've left somewhere else, don't you want to know why - just in case they transfer grievance and pain (and perhaps some disruptive attitudes) along with their presence? It's been known to happen IME.
As to the OP - go and see the people concerned, take a neutral person with you as witness. If there's no hope of reconciliation, then state calmly and clearly why you have to go. Try not to blame. Accept that the people will be hurt but wish them well. Don't,don't get involved in an argument. (You can allow the neutral observer to be MC). Let the neutral observer draft a brief summary of what's been said and send to everyone involved.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
After six years involved in my local parish, and coming towards the end of an interregnum, I had unpleasant experiences with another of the lay leadership and his wife, within a 24 hour period. On top of other things, that led me to flounce, and to refuse any approaches from them.
It meant I stopped seeing people who were my main circle of contacts locally, and it was 9 months before I started going to another church. I still resent intensely what happened, and probably will for a long time.
I offer that as an example of a leaving that didn't go well. I don't have any answers as to what I should have done (though I'm sure others on here will have suggestions!). I never told anyone apart from the locum what was the reason for me leaving.
I am now happily settled elsewhere; a much longer journey to church, but free of the stuff I didn't like. Others from my old church probably still don't understand why I left.
Tell the leadership why you're going. Do it on neutral ground, so that you can leave when you want to. Do all you can to avoid there being a lingering effect on you.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
I would underline what others have said about telling the leadership your reasons. They likely are telling themselves that all is fine and that your departure is part of the normal churn of parish departures (that private sector marketing terminology is used cheerfully is a tad worrying- Luke 15 and all that). They need to know why there is a churn as it is either the churnee's fault, in which case they will be able to identify early signs and how to help, or demographic/social change, which they will now be able to plan for, or their own failings, in which case they can now learn and correct. Parish leadership often (usually) has no idea of the personal turmoil involved in a departure.
In any case, it provides the churnee with a way of ending the relationship clearly and leaving it behind. Others have advised ways and spaces of going about it, which are worth looking at.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
If God is guiding you elsewhere, it's enough to say so. If not, but it seems as if people are standing in the way of God's will and therefore everyone is suffering, it may be a case of holding onto patience until God makes it clear to them, or to you.
The loss we feel when leaving a church causes emotional upset. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) May you be comforted and guided.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It's much easier to leave quietly if you don't have a position of responsibility in the church. If you do, there's a terrible sense of letting people down as well as the strong conviction that you need to get out. Ultimately, though, you have to follow the least damaging path to yourself and your family, whatever that may be.
Even in the CofE, I've heard of a case where a rather controlling priest followed someone in a senior role to their new church in order to rubbish him to his new priest. It didn't go down too well.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
There's probably no good way to leave when you've come to the conclusion it!s not you, it's them ... You could have a meeting or send a letter, but I would keep things neutral, "Prayfully decided to move on ...", rather than, "Leaving because you're choking the faith out of us ...". That makes it easier to keep up with the friends you've got who are still there. And because if the leaders are as you say, they won't listen anyway.
After you've moved, find somewhere new and just be for a bit. You'll ned sometime to get the old church out of your system. And accept that moving on means saying goodbye to friends - the people you'll keep in touch with aren't the ones you think they are.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stoker
Shipmate
# 11939
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Posted
Thanks folks, lots of interesting advice here. I think Silent Acolyte's got the best one so far.
I love the phrase 'Churnee'.
Sadly, Chorister, I am in the leadership team, but it's going in a direction I don't want to be associated with - it's like trying to row a boat one way with twice as many guys rowing in the opposite way against you...
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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Posts: 428 | Registered: Oct 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
What surprised me when we changed church was how many people had been aware that we were not happy at the old church, but had not said anything to us about it. They were just pleased that we had found another church where we were happy, rather than leaving the church altogether.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I have some resources on my site www.boredwithchurch.info, which might help you, and please do get in touch if you want to talk it out.
The answer is tell them, do it, and stay firm. People will hate you for doing it, misunderstand you, all the stuff. That is the way of it, because by leaving you are challenging those who stay. And it is personal, because you are saying that this church is not one where you can find God.
BUT, and this is the critical thing, if it is having such a negative effect as you say, you NEED to get out of that situation for your own good. So do it, tell people, and remain firm.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
The answer is tell them, do it, and stay firm. People will hate you for doing it, misunderstand you, all the stuff. That is the way of it, because by leaving you are challenging those who stay. And it is personal, because you are saying that this church is not one where you can find God. BUT, and this is the critical thing, if it is having such a negative effect as you say, you NEED to get out of that situation for your own good. So do it, tell people, and remain firm.
I so agree with this: several years ago we felt we needed to leave a church we'd had spent more than twenty years in, as very active members. There was a huge amount of pain for all involved. In retrospect we know we could have handled it better but we also know it was the right decision. I really struggled with the knowledge that many people believe we'd "sold out" and had become woolly liberals etc. We knew we needed to go but one of the hardest things was the loss of relationships: it transpired that many of them were only as strong as the being together for services and projects. Yet I'd given my heart to these people....it still hurts sometimes all these years later. So my advice would be, to be prepared for unexpected loss but stay strong and find a place where you can heal and grow.
I will be praying for you, Stoker!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Ultimately, your real friends will stay in touch. It's right what MrsBeaky says, you quickly realise that a lot of what you felt were close relationships were dependent on shared projects and programmes.
There's a lot of rhetoric in many churches about closeness of fellowship and how they're like a 'family' and so on but the reality is very different.
We managed to keep on good terms with people when we left a church after 18 years, although by the time we left they were getting used to it. Thinking about it, there'd always been people coming and going and we lived through about three or four major splits.
These days, I try to make sure I cultivate activities and friendships outside of church so that if things do go pear-shaped I haven't got all my eggs in one basket, to mix metaphors horribly.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
When I left my church, of a good 150-200 members, in the first 6 months only the 3 couples in my home group contacted me. Even others whom I thought I was quite close to shunned me.
Yes it is hard, but you learn a lot from the process. Not least that some of your church friends are only friends while you can do things in the church. I realised that the level of abusive relationships in churches - not deliberately so, but in reality so - was far higher than I expected. And I was explicitly shunned by someone I had hoped would be sympathetic.
That unconscious abuse is a strain. You are better off out of it.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
SC, you forgot to provide the link. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Don't grieve too soon over losing friends - over the years to follow, you may find (as I have done) that, one by one, you can get to know them again on a different footing (a whole church at once is too much, but individual people are manageable at worst and really quite friendly at best - but you do need to give it time).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
I'm not sure this is a compliment to a lot of churches (in fact I'm fairly sure it's not) but leaving tends to be easier for a single person than for a young family.
When I, as a single twenty-something female, walked out of a church and never came back (controlling leadership, attitudes to women I disagreed with, gimungous elephant-sized lumps in the carpet), no one ever noticed. Shortly before that, another young single guy in the same church got cheesed off and didn't turn up for about six weeks. No one called him. When he finally decided to come back, he challenged the pastor: "If that had been a family with small children, you would have called, wouldn't you?". The pastor admitted that he would have done. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
(This is not a comment on all churches, by any means, but it is a comment on the kind of churches that people walk out of.)
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
This raises the issue of what we expect from the other people who attend the same church as us, who we expect it from, and whether we 'do unto others as we hope they will do unto us'.
In the last week, I've heard one woman say 'the people who have helped me the most aren't even churchgoers' and another lamenting as the nearest church to her holiday venue (a very expensive one) couldn't find anyone to pick her up and take her to the church service.
As expectation inevitably leads to disappointment, no wonder people leave churches or don't come in the first place. Are such expectations realistic?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Indeed, I think that's part of the problem, unrealistic expectations. For whatever reason these days, many people expect their church to be able to provide all the support they need in whatever form.
It can cause all sorts of practical problems when people leave.
My brother in South Wales left a church a good 10 years ago now and has only recently started attending services again. In that time he has lost his support group and got into all sorts of financial and other difficulties ... but he's getting out of that now.
He's a bit of a technophobe and so has no idea how to get a telly aerial fitted, how to sort himself out to go online and how to sort out basic car trouble. Previously he'd rely on church people or relatives to help him with all of those type of things.
I could say more, but whilst it's great that the church was helping him with practical stuff, he's left high and dry now he's no longer involved.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
This raises the issue of what we expect from the other people who attend the same church as us, who we expect it from, and whether we 'do unto others as we hope they will do unto us'.
In the last week, I've heard one woman say 'the people who have helped me the most aren't even churchgoers' and another lamenting as the nearest church to her holiday venue (a very expensive one) couldn't find anyone to pick her up and take her to the church service.
As expectation inevitably leads to disappointment, no wonder people leave churches or don't come in the first place. Are such expectations realistic?
No. You’re unlikely to get everything you need from one place or group of people. Some things you’re either going to have find from elsewhere, learn to do yourself or go without them.
People do get disappointed when Christians turn out to be * shock, horror *, just like everyone else – some are wonderful and caring whilst others are selfish, thoughtless etc. Once you learn that lesson, it makes (church) life easier to navigate. Those that don’t learn it either end up travelling from church to church looking for one that’s not full of fallen human beings or give up entirely. (In other news, church leaders are also human and may let you down).
The other expectation is that somehow your fellow Christians will magically know that you’re going through a difficult time and need some help. In church, pretty much like everywhere else, you tend to get help when you ask for it and tell people what’s going on. The Minister may notice that you’ve not been at church for a few weeks, but if that few weeks are during holiday season, s/he may assume that this is because you’re sunning yourself somewhere rather than in hospital.
To paraphrase something that Steve Chalke said during a sermon, “When you’re moaning that no one does …, ask yourself when you last did it …”.
Tubbs
PS This woman expected someone she’d never met from a church she’d never attended to give her a lift there and back to the service whilst she was on holiday. Really?! I assume that her last slave gave notice.
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I'm not sure this is a compliment to a lot of churches (in fact I'm fairly sure it's not) but leaving tends to be easier for a single person than for a young family.
When I, as a single twenty-something female, walked out of a church and never came back (controlling leadership, attitudes to women I disagreed with, gimungous elephant-sized lumps in the carpet), no one ever noticed. Shortly before that, another young single guy in the same church got cheesed off and didn't turn up for about six weeks. No one called him. When he finally decided to come back, he challenged the pastor: "If that had been a family with small children, you would have called, wouldn't you?". The pastor admitted that he would have done.
(This is not a comment on all churches, by any means, but it is a comment on the kind of churches that people walk out of.)
Oh dear
I had a similar experience. When I, as a (recently) single twenty-something male, left a church, it wasn't anything much to do with the church itself: it was to get away from my ex. I'd had a gnawing worry for a while though, that the church was so frosty that nobody would notice if I disappeared, so I decided to try this out, not tell anyone I was leaving and see how long it took someone to follow me up. This was complicated by me being on the church council, so I had to actually resign from that, so the vicar did know. It took a full eight months for anyone else to say anything though - I ranted on TICTH at the time, here.
As I said, I didn't leave because of the church itself, but that incident really tested my faith: I was going through a shitty time and my non-christian friends, on the whole, behaved a lot better than my Christian friends did. If we're meant to be modelling Christ to the world, surely we can do better than that? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Posts: 2821 | Registered: Sep 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I think one problem is that churches often don't like to pry. We're eager to complain about churches that pester people who stop coming; churches with aspirations to be respectable really don't want to get a reputation for doing that.
The challenge is to find a middle way. Unfortunately, it's yet one more issue that the clergy and lay leaders aren't trained to deal with. The only thing I've come across that tries to address it in a practical way is Back to Church Sunday. Having an official event like this makes it acceptable to get in touch with people who've left. But it's not enough, is it?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
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Posted
You're right. There's a balance. I don't think it's unreasonable to think a church might give someone a call if they go unexpectedly AWOL for several weeks at a time.
I mean yes, the other guy and I had indeed disappeared because we were ticked with the leaders of the church. In my case it suited me fine that they didn't try to get in touch with me and I didn't have to tell them "I've walked out because I think you're a load of hypocrites".
But without following us up, they had no way of knowing. We could just as well have been in hospital. And no one would have cared (we weren't fly-by-nights - we both attended every week for a long time before we left).
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Rent my holiday home in the South of France
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
la vie en rouge
The thing is, most people will be reluctant to make a phone call if they suspect that the person on the other end might tell them they're a hypocrite. It's human nature. Most of us aren't gluttons for punishment! Anyway, I suspect that many church leaders already have some idea of their failings. They realise that their church is inadequate in some ways, but they feel too fearful, hassled, busy or whatever to deal with it.
Churches and ministers are usually poor at dealing with conflict. They'd rather not lose members, but they probably see that as the price to be paid for keeping conflict at a manageable level. No one's trained to deal with conflict, and no one goes into church work, lay or ordained, because they're natural peace-makers.
The system doesn't help churches deal with the relationship difficulties that may arise, and the structure doesn't necessarily help to nurture healthy relationships. Certain personality types tend to dominate, and these probably won't be the kind to place a high priority on openness and straight talking.
I also think that the way we do church on the whole doesn't help to foster close friendships. And some people are perfectly happy with that. But in that case, you can't really expect people to ring you up just in case you've fallen down the stairs.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
You're right. There's a balance. I don't think it's unreasonable to think a church might give someone a call if they go unexpectedly AWOL for several weeks at a time.
I mean yes, the other guy and I had indeed disappeared because we were ticked with the leaders of the church. In my case it suited me fine that they didn't try to get in touch with me and I didn't have to tell them "I've walked out because I think you're a load of hypocrites".
But without following us up, they had no way of knowing. We could just as well have been in hospital. And no one would have cared (we weren't fly-by-nights - we both attended every week for a long time before we left).
Not excusing it, but alot depends on the size of church. Someone who attends my tiny church where most of the congregation live locally is more likely to get a call from either the Minister or someone in the congregation than someone who attended the large church in outer London that I attended previously.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Chorister - yes I saw that today as well. Very true. I did a facebook post some time ago that said something like "Churches are full of hurting people, because if you are in a church for any length of time, you will be hurt". I still feel the same.
SvitlanaV2 - I don't entirely agree. I think church churches are generally poor at picking up people who don't turn up. I am the same - I don't always notice when people haven't been there. Whether this is people who have some problems that mean they don't come for a few weeks, or they have left. There is a focus on the church activity and the people who are involved. You will be missed if you fail to do a rota duty, and not otherwise.
That is not intended as a slagging off, just as a comment - so many people are focussed on church activity that church people can be easily missed.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
SvitlanaV2 - I don't entirely agree. I think church churches are generally poor at picking up people who don't turn up. I am the same - I don't always notice when people haven't been there. Whether this is people who have some problems that mean they don't come for a few weeks, or they have left. There is a focus on the church activity and the people who are involved. You will be missed if you fail to do a rota duty, and not otherwise.
That is not intended as a slagging off, just as a comment - so many people are focussed on church activity that church people can be easily missed.
We don't disagree that much! I agree that people who are 'busy' in the church are missed more than other people if they don't show up. Some people might be okay with that - they might not want to be 'noticed'.
Actually, another problem is that people are attending church less often anyway, so it must take much longer to establish whether or not they have a problem. I hear that 'regular' attendance now doesn't mean every week, but every fortnight, or less often, in the UK at least.
[ 08. July 2013, 15:26: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think one problem is that churches often don't like to pry. We're eager to complain about churches that pester people who stop coming; churches with aspirations to be respectable really don't want to get a reputation for doing that.
The challenge is to find a middle way. Unfortunately, it's yet one more issue that the clergy and lay leaders aren't trained to deal with. The only thing I've come across that tries to address it in a practical way is Back to Church Sunday. Having an official event like this makes it acceptable to get in touch with people who've left. But it's not enough, is it?
You're too polite. It's not that they aren't trained to deal with it (although that's generally true)-- it's often that leaders don't want to deal with it. They are under pressure of time to deal with that which is urgent, and potentially unpleasant conversations are not high on their priority list.
La Vie en Rose makes a useful point, that families are tracked more carefully than individuals.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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