Ship of Fools: The unwritten rules of friendship

Thread: The unwritten rules of friendship Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anna B (# 1439) on :

It seems to me that some people have a very good sense of how to proceed in friendship, others less so. To get us started, I'm wondering whether we can parse some of the unwritten general rules for the following situations:

Situation 1. One person is interested in being friends with someone who does not share this interest.

Situation 2: Two people have been friends for a long time. One person wants to spend more time and energy on the friendship than the other does.

Situation 3: Friends X and Y are from two different cultures with very different definitions of friendship.

Add your own. And what bearing might Christianity---and Facebook---have on all of this?

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

Well, I do not have a natural sense of how to proceed in friendship, but from what I have observed, it is very context dependent, and so there aren't necessarily general rules you can apply to all situations. Much of it is about being aware of the other person and their individual temperament, culture and preferences, and adapting accordingly.

For instance, some people might be impressed or flattered that you pursued a friendship with them when they didn't want one. Others would be annoyed, or creeped out. And the way you would pursue the friendship (if it was appropriate to pursue it) would again depend on the person.

For situation 2, again it's dependent on the situation. One person might be unable to put so much time and effort in due to other things going on in their lives - maybe they are depressed, for instance - and so they may appreciate the other person putting in more effort. On the other hand, they may want to cool off the friendship - maybe they don't feel such a bond with the person - in which case, it might not be appropriate for the person to keep putting in the same amount of time and effort.

For situation 3, surely this is a discussion you have with the other person - you learn about each other's cultures and expectations, and if you want to develop a friendship, you learn to compromise and adapt. These are my favourite sort of friendships, because they are so open about what friendship is, and exploring and accepting differences. You don't have unwritten rules in these friendships, because you come to the friendship with an understanding that you need to clarify things because of cultural differences.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

I've never been very good at making friends - actively, anyway. People generally like me, but almost no one initiates plans to do stuff, etc. Occasionally I try, with mixed success. I think growing up in the woods (raised by human parents, not wolves) had a bad effect on my social skills, perhaps. We never learned how to initiate friendships - our friends came with their parents, who were our parents' friends.

That said (providing it doesn't disqualify me from saying anything on the subject), I think with the situations named above:

1. You have to be willing to shrug it off.
2. You have to be willing to shrug it off and remain content with the friendship as it is.
3. You have to be aware, and be open to learning as much as you can. Take an interest in the other's culture, but don't make them feel like they're a curiosity, especially if they're from a minority culture and you're not. Other than that, just treat them as you would any friend, I would think. But I'm not part of a minority culture, so it would be helpful to hear about this from someone who is.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

You have to both be willing to help out the other one when necessary. If the helping is all one way, it becomes a very unhealthy relationship.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Anna B: Situation 1. One person is interested in being friends with someone who does not share this interest.

I'm not sure if it works like this. I think friendships are different from romantic relationships. I have never actively pursued a friendship in the sense of "I'd be interested in being friends with this person." It just happens.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Friendship is contextual, IMO. My parametres with different friends are what have been worked out, mostly unsaid, with what we are each comfortable with. It is not always consistent or smooth and has lead to interesting intersections in some groups.
I have been on both sides of the varied levels of interest, and it is not always easy in either case.
IME, Christianity is only the barrier/facilitator one wished to make it.
I think Facebook makes things worse, though in honesty, I must own that I fairly much hate Facebook.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

As a youngster, I used to go round friends houses, never mine...much too tense and problematic.

It took me ages to work out that when someone came to see me, for f***'s sake make them a cup of tea .

Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:
Anna B: Situation 1. One person is interested in being friends with someone who does not share this interest.
I'm not sure if it works like this. I think friendships are different from romantic relationships. I have never actively pursued a friendship in the sense of "I'd be interested in being friends with this person." It just happens.

I think this depends on the person. I know people who do pursue friendships like this. Particularly if they move to a new place and don't know anyone - in this situation, making friends has to be more of a deliberate thing than it is in a situation such as university, where you're surrounded by people to hang out with and have fun with.

Friendships never 'just happen' for me. The close friendships I have are when the other person actively sought to have a friendship with me, and took steps to make it happen. They did the work in pursuing the friendship - not because I didn't want a friendship, but because I simply wasn't thinking in those terms, and also I didn't know how.

Posted by crunt (# 1321) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:

Friendships never 'just happen' for me. The close friendships I have are when the other person actively sought to have a friendship with me, and took steps to make it happen. They did the work in pursuing the friendship - not because I didn't want a friendship, but because I simply wasn't thinking in those terms, and also I didn't know how. [/QB]

Interesting. I've been musing on a quote from Facebook that I saw recently, which said something like:
"You don't make friends, you recognise them".
I thought it was a very clever observation, but clearly it doesn't apply to everyone. I have started to be friends with people who seemed nice enough, but were strangely unresponsive to my friendly overtures. I thought they 'just weren't that into me' (in a platonic way), and moved on. Maybe I should have tried a bit harder.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

There has to be a mutuality. It can also be tiring to maintain or make new friends. I've had 3 best friends over the course of my life. The first moved away for education after we were both in our 20s, and we only talk a couple of times a year at most. A second died after 15 years of our friendship, and a third also died 20 or so years after the second. I've limited energy or inclination for the highly personal close friendships since. Better is friends who share some interests and there is mutual enjoyment of company. I'd prefer also that they were healthy!

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I agree with no prophet, there has to be a mutuality.
It has been a painful journey for me to over the years to discover where that mutuality did and didn't actually exist. Being a member of a school staff team or a very active local church and then moving on from both and realising where there really was an enduring mutual relationship and where there sadly wasn't (far less than you'd think!)
Now having come to live in Kenya, I'm further discovering who can do long distance mutual relationships and it's even fewer people.
It makes me a little bit sad but it also makes the few enduring friendships I do have even more precious.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I´m drafting an email now to our new curate whom I´ve never met. It won´t end in friendship. It can´t. Mutual friendship is incredibly rare. I have it in my marriage more than anywhere in 60 years. And in an even more subjective, untransferable, broken, mystical, projected way with Jesus.

My wife and I have only just realised that friendship in church is impossible. That´s after decades of church. In a church of 750 people.

Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young come to mind: Love The One You´re With. Regardless. Unconditionally.

We definitely do friendship through a glass darkly.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

I'm really hoping this thread comes up with some answers. I'm no good at friendship. I have very few friends (one person other than family with whom I have intentional social contact on any kind of regular basis). The ones I have had I have lost - through my own carelessness, I am sure.

I am lonely.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I'm really hoping this thread comes up with some answers. I'm no good at friendship.

My own journey has been a combination of this and what Churchgeek said above. I don't know what attracts two people to each other. Somehow or other you just enjoy talking to each other, doing things together, sharing experiences. There are many more rejections than connections.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

Interesting discussion. My best friend I met 30 years ago. On the surface, we have very, very little in common, with the exception that when we met we were both active scout leaders. He is a tradesman,self educated, physically active and miles away from the form of Christianity I practice, beyond the fact that we are both faithful Christians.

Over 30 years, our friendship has evolved, especially in the last 7 years when he moved out of town. But when we phone, or visit, the years melt away as we enjoy memories of our shared experiences and enjoy new ones. That, to me, is friendship. Over the years, I have met friends who become friends for a reason, then fade away as our requirement for friendship fades. It doesn't mean we aren't pleased to meet and greet - I had three examples of that just yesterday, while shopping. Then there are friends who are friends for a season. Once the reason for friendship fades or is broken, it is as if we had never met.

That's life. For what it's worth I expect 40 friends and 10 relatives at my upcoming birthday party. None of them will be casual acquaintances.

Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
My wife and I have only just realised that friendship in church is impossible. That´s after decades of church. In a church of 750 people.

I think that's mostly true but I think it's also true of the model railroad club and the community orchestra and the job you work. Almost everyone you meet is there to relate to the organization they were part of before you came and will be part of after you leave. You as a uniquely interesting individual are incidental to why they are there, and your role is to be a replaceable cog in the organization, not to be uniquely interesting.

Rarely when you attend an organizational event that people go to primarily because they are part of the organization, rarely you can create a personal friendship that will survive even if one or both of you depart the organization, but it's rare because time together is focused on the organization and it's programs and needs, not on building personal relationships.

And it takes intentional reaching out - "let's get together for supper at my place" - and a lot of people will be puzzled and say no because their only interest in you is as a cog in the organizational machinery so why would they have supper with you unless to discuss an organizational project?

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Erroneous Monk: I'm really hoping this thread comes up with some answers. I'm no good at friendship. I have very few friends (one person other than family with whom I have intentional social contact on any kind of regular basis). The ones I have had I have lost - through my own carelessness, I am sure.

I am lonely.

I'm not sure if I can be of much help here, it isn't a conscious effort for me.

Once, I moved into a new city in another country. In the department I worked, most people were from abroad, and some were a bit lost there. I just said: "Let's all have dinner in a restaurant some evening." Maybe when you don't know many people, it's good to band together with people who are in the same situation.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

I think it might be worth parsing out what 'friendship' is; I think there are different sorts of friendship.

Examples:

'mutual aid' connections, as one might have with a neighbor: we trim the hedge between our properties jointly, or you drive me grocery shopping in exchange for my watching your kids on bridge club night. We might or might not have much in common; we might or might not really "take" to each other, but it's a pleasant enough connection, and we help each other out.

'mutual interest' connections, as one bridge payer might form with a fellow bridge player. You meet & interact initially over a joint interest, and from that may spring a mutual attraction that spills over into other areas.

'mutual alliance' connections, where the bond is formed through dealing with some opposition together -- you & your co-worker or classmate struggle together to deal with a difficult boss or professor, or you and another family member figure out what to do about Aunt Sadie's outrageous behavior.

'mutual confidant' connections, where the bond is sharing personal hopes, aims, problems, and so on, sometimes just for venting, sometimes perhaps for advice.

And on and on -- but the point is that each of these kids of connections calls for differing 'rules.' The neighbor I trim my hedge with is not necessarily the person in whom I confide my fears about my husband's drinking.

And yes, it's all somewhat fraught, at least among people of my gender. I may be wrong, but I suspect female-female friendships differ from male-male friendships which in turn differ from male-female friendships. In the church I used to attend, for example, most members seemed to assume that male-female friendships weren't actually possible, and always really involved some sort of hanky-panky. Incredibly annoying.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

My wife and I have only just realised that friendship in church is impossible. That´s after decades of church. In a church of 750 people.

Mrs Cniht and I met two couples that are now close friends through church. Mind you, the initial meeting with one couple involved two pregnant ladies lying on the floor in the church hall to try to ameliorate a bout of morning sickness - that tends to be a bonding experience.

Following Porridge, I've always found the idea that men and women can't be friends odd - I've had several good female friends over the years, without the merest hint of sexual interest on either side. Yet almost without fail, if I go somewhere with a female friend but without Mrs Cniht, someone assumes that the two of us are married.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Problem with definitions is that friendship boundaries are plastic, IME. And expectations are not always the same between friends, or even consistent. Or static.
I laugh at the notion that men and women cannot be friends. Both that this is untrue and that attraction v. friendship issues are restricted to crossing genders.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

The ancient wisdom is if you want friends, be friendly. And nothing works like hospitality.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

One would think. But it doesn't always happen that way.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

Two weeks running, I've had a date in my diary for drinks with a couple of work friends. Today's the second time it's been cancelled. I feel like I've failed at the most basic thing - going for a few beers with friends after work. But I'm also sort of relieved that I don't have to do it.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Aye Amanda B. Reckondwythe, that´s how it works. Badly. Brokenly. That´s how everything works. That´s OK. The alternative?

Slowly die.

Erroneous Monk. No church? No fellowship? No homeless shelter? No family? I´m hurting behind the eyes mate, believe me. They won´t come to you. You must go to them. Seek them out. Hospital visiting. Prison visiting. Step up mate.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye Amanda B. Reckondwythe, that´s how it works. Badly. Brokenly. That´s how everything works. That´s OK. The alternative?

Slowly die.

Erroneous Monk. No church? No fellowship? No homeless shelter? No family? I´m hurting behind the eyes mate, believe me. They won´t come to you. You must go to them. Seek them out. Hospital visiting. Prison visiting. Step up mate.

If/when I decide to die, I'll be going quickly, not slowly. But thanks anyway Martin.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I'm really hoping this thread comes up with some answers. I'm no good at friendship. I have very few friends (one person other than family with whom I have intentional social contact on any kind of regular basis). The ones I have had I have lost - through my own carelessness, I am sure.

I am lonely.

Lonely? So am I - sort of - some of the time. But not enough, I think, for it to be an urge, a driver, a hunger which forces me out of my comfort zone to approach people I kind of like and ask them if they'd like to do something sometime, to take the risk of them drawing in their chins and looking surprised and saying....'uhm...I'm actually kinda busy this week'.

Approaching my birthday, about a month ago, I actually felt well enough, and energetic enough, that I thought, I know, I'll make myself a fancy cake and have some folk around for afternoon tea (it's ok, I like making cakes) - and what actually happened was my immediate family, my mum, and my auntie and uncle-in-law eating some cake and chips.

I was a bit let down at having failed to convince anyone else to come along, but then I thought, this is the flipside of my not being prepared to spend long hours making the right noises as people talk about stuff which doesn't interest me, of not avidly following and commenting on everyone's blog/facebook page. Of having moved away from the town in which I grew up, and the city in which I studied. And none of these are things I regret. There may only be twenty people at my funeral, and eighteen of them family. So be it. That's me. That's who I am.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Two weeks running, I've had a date in my diary for drinks with a couple of work friends. Today's the second time it's been cancelled. I feel like I've failed at the most basic thing - going for a few beers with friends after work. But I'm also sort of relieved that I don't have to do it.

I can really, really, identify with this, too. And I think the nubbin of the problem is in the disappointed/relieved dimension. It marks you out as different from the people for whom mere acquaintanceship is sufficient, the people whose diaries are plenty full anyway, the people who habitually say yes to engagements whether or not they intend to keep them. All these groups, they're not going to care one way or another.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Two weeks running, I've had a date in my diary for drinks with a couple of work friends. Today's the second time it's been cancelled. I feel like I've failed at the most basic thing - going for a few beers with friends after work. But I'm also sort of relieved that I don't have to do it.
I can really, really, identify with this, too. And I think the nubbin of the problem is in the disappointed/relieved dimension. It marks you out as different from the people for whom mere acquaintanceship is sufficient, the people whose diaries are plenty full anyway, the people who habitually say yes to engagements whether or not they intend to keep them. All these groups, they're not going to care one way or another.

I think I love you. But you're in New Zealand. [Frown]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Is there a tropical island somewhere with a balmy year-round climate where we can all retire to, build ourselves a manse, and live out our years all together in mutual friendship -- sort of like the grace and favor where the Are You Being Served crew ended up?

Of course, a good internet connection would be essential.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Loneliness might deserve its own thread?

-- I think internet forums are one way of dealing with it. I've thought that churches are another.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Two weeks running, I've had a date in my diary for drinks with a couple of work friends. Today's the second time it's been cancelled. I feel like I've failed at the most basic thing - going for a few beers with friends after work. But I'm also sort of relieved that I don't have to do it.
I can really, really, identify with this, too. And I think the nubbin of the problem is in the disappointed/relieved dimension. It marks you out as different from the people for whom mere acquaintanceship is sufficient, the people whose diaries are plenty full anyway, the people who habitually say yes to engagements whether or not they intend to keep them. All these groups, they're not going to care one way or another.
I think I love you. But you're in New Zealand.

Aww shucks, thanks... [Hot and Hormonal]

On a related note, one of the things that's so nice about this forum is that there seem to be fewer 'rules of friendship', and most of them are, thankfully, written down.

I have met people who are highly skeptical of the idea that you can have meaningful friendships online - I wonder if these same people came up with the phrase 'in real life' to describe life off-line, as though no-one ever did anything online except fantasy role play gaming (and surely meaningful relationships can be forged via that kind of medium as well?) - anyway, tangent aside, I think one of the great things about these boards is that the group nature of the discussions, and the necessary time-lag between areas of the world, means that there is simply no point in wondering whether anyone has noticed or appreciated your contribution. As a result, I don't start worrying about whether people don't like me if they ignore (or *apparently* ignore) my posts. So much less nerve-wracking than 'real-life'.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Loneliness might deserve its own thread?

-- I think internet forums are one way of dealing with it. I've thought that churches are another.

I note you put that last sentence in the past tense. I expect it can work for the right sort of person, which is also the sort of person who for whom joining a squash club, or toastmasters, or the local chapter of their flavour of political party would work. Someone for whom the word 'networking' doesn't cause a cold sweat and heart palpitations. I prefer to meet people in ones or twos - and not in that awful pressured after-service coffee environment where folk stand around in little knots trading trivialities, and you look like a knob if you have no-one to talk to. There's a word for that, and it's 'networking' [shudder].

[ 27. July 2013, 09:57: Message edited by: anoesis ]

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

I just notice how much less I meet friends now. I recall an obituary of Ted Hughes by a friend of his, who said 'we learned to leave each other alone', and that has stuck in my mind, as it has happened to me.

The most extreme example is a friend of mine who is dying, who announced that he didn't want any more visitors. Some people were upset by this, but I wasn't; I send him a good-bye letter, which felt fine.

I suppose many people become more introverted as they get older, but it is not a rule!

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

It's easier to have close friends when you are single - the chances of you and your partner getting on equally well with your friend and her partner is quite small.

However, I discovered the advantage of trading a few close friends for many wider friendships, and this is the way I tend to operate now, both online and in real life situations.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
It's easier to have close friends when you are single - the chances of you and your partner getting on equally well with your friend and her partner is quite small.

Ain't that the truth...

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
However, I discovered the advantage of trading a few close friends for many wider friendships, and this is the way I tend to operate now, both online and in real life situations.

I am still yearning for the close friend - preferably an introverted type. Oddly enough my husband filled this space for quite a number of years, but our lives, outside of our mutual battle to cope with the kids, seem too different for this at the moment.

Posted by Tukai (# 12960) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Is there a tropical island somewhere with a balmy year-round climate where we can all retire to, build ourselves a manse, and live out our years all together in mutual friendship -- sort of like the grace and favor where the Are You Being Served crew ended up?

Of course, a good internet connection would be essential.

Try Fiji! It's certainly worth a reconnaissance trip. Of tropical islands I know, only Hawai'i has better infrastructure, but the cost of living is much higher and the people are less friendly.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
I am still yearning for the close friend - preferably an introverted type. Oddly enough my husband filled this space for quite a number of years, but our lives, outside of our mutual battle to cope with the kids, seem too different for this at the moment.

Just wanted to say I really identify with this too. Sometimes I really miss my husband's friendship.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

[Votive]

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

EM. Your in box is full.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
EM. Your in box is full.

It's only taken 7 years [Smile]

.

I've deleted some.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
Sometimes I really miss my husband's friendship.

This isn't all-saints...but I want to add something along the lines that tough jobs, divergent personal ambitions, the pressures which come with kids and, heck, a deep-rooted lack of maturity leading to selfishness and defensiveness on both our parts, stretched me and the missus way beyond friendship and probably beyond even liking each other, much.

I'm glad to say that after six months couples' counselling, and in the midst of some fairly substantial life changes, we can now manage a conversation from time to time which feels more substantial, and mutual, than that which we can manage with anyone else. (And we both have a few friends, one or two close, outside of marriage). This feels immensely satisfying, and reminds me why we started all this.

We also fall out a lot. But hey, I wanted to be encouraging, and perhaps to suggest to anyone out there as tight as I am that 40 quid an hour *might* end up feeling like a worthwhile present to yourselves.

cheers

Mark

Posted by hanginginthere (# 17541) on :

One of my closest friends, of 55 years' standing, died unexpectedly last year, leaving me shocked and bereft. It also made me realise how much I value my remaining friends and my resolution for 2013 has been to see at least one of them at least once a week. It hasn't always been possible (family problems have sometimes taken up too much time) but on the whole I have stuck to it and as a result have had many enjoyable meetings over coffee or lunch and feel that the relationships have deepened. Friendships need to be nurtured just like any other relationship and we get out of them what we put into them.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Some of my closest friends have been fellow choristers, which just goes to show how having a special interest or hobby in common can help to glue friendships together. Today I went to visit someone from the choir before last, on Saturday I went to the wedding of someone who used to sing in my present choir, and next week I'm going to the wedding of someone from the first choir I ever sang in. These are very long term friendships, we don't see each other very often, but meet up and continue as if there has never been a gap.

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