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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Should Christians criticize Mormonism?
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Speaking of Mormon temples, there was a photo tour book produced before the Salt Lake City building was consecrated in 1890; it's the only picture series available of the interior. With the advent of the internet it's become much more available.
Some would describe it as interesting, others as tending towards kitsch. I don't believe the interior has changed much, if at all, in the intervening century.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
There are still things that get to me about the Mormon faith. For instance, the Twilight Series is really fictionalized Mormon theology.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/24/mormon-influence-imagery_n_623487.html
I didn't find everything in that article entirely convincing. Some of the supposed similarities seemed to be on pretty general points, eg. someone in the movie talked about having an abortion, Mormons allow abortion in some instances. Lots of movies talk about abortion, and lots of religions have partial allowances for it. Some of it seemed on firmer ground though.
Another movie that critics connected to Mormonism was Knowing, a somewhat underrated(IMO) apocalyptic sci-fi story from a few years back. Apparently, its usage of the Edenic Tree to symbolize something positive(rather than just the Fall) is akin to Mormon usage. I think the Mormons might have lifted that motif from Freemasonry, but don't quote me on that.
The image
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
Some folk seem to think that Mormons are to be faulted for "pretending" to be Christian. Why? They genuinely think themselves Christian and have every right to present that viewpoint, even if nobody agrees with them. It is our job to educate our co-religionists about the basics of our faith so they can recognise why the Mormons' claim is wrong.
It seems that recently Mormons have begun to stress the generally Christian elements in their doctrine more. That applies to their self-presentation to the outside. But is also seems to hold for their inner life. It is not just propaganda. I have spoken to many Mormons and they all say they never heard the stuff about God living with wife and son on the planet Kolob in the galaxy Kokaubeam in church. Apparently in practice this is not relevant to their teaching - so I well believe that inside their Church they feel Christian. An illusion born from ignorance about our faith, I think, but a genuine one.
I recently heard a Mormon analyse the docrine of trinity going through church history from the earliest times. He tried to reconcile it with Mormonism. Unsuccessfully imo (I told him so), but he seemed genuinely interested in understanding Christian doctrine. That is rare among Mormons and an effort I gave him credit for. It was a German FAIR conference.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
For starters, Mormanism, in its establishment, documents and central claims lacks historicity. K.
It is a common assumption in our culture that faiths are to be taken more seriously if they are old and/or numerically strong.
But if you think about it, neither age nor numbers tell you anything about the veracity or quality of a persuasion, idea, thought or religion, does it?
If nothing else, simply remembering the start of Christianity should give you pause for thought. It was tiny and brand new once.
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This wouldn't be a problem if not for one thing: they claim their church *IS* Christian, and they obscure the nature of their "god" from would-be converts, making out like it is our God. "We're just like Methodists and Presbyterians except we have a new Testament of Jesus Christ," they will say. But they're not. That's dishonest.
There are many admirable and many objectionable things about Mormonism other than their concept of God. But their concept of God puts them outside the Christian tent. [/QB]
That also applies to some forms of liberal protestantism...
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
I think an important diasctintion needs to made here. Comparing Christianity, Islam, Judaism and probably a few others as well, to Mormanism isn't quite fair. For starters, Mormanism, in its establishment, documents and central claims lacks historicity. I think a comparison to Scientology is much more apt.
K.
The comparison with Islam is slightly more viable, given that the sacred texts are based on the testimony of a single person, who was as at least apparently convinced of his message. Scientology is a rather different kettle of fish.
Point taken. I was thinking about the role of invention. In short, the Book of Mormon was clearly a fake and (at least partial) forgery right from the start.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
This wouldn't be a problem if not for one thing: they claim their church *IS* Christian, and they obscure the nature of their "god" from would-be converts, making out like it is our God. "We're just like Methodists and Presbyterians except we have a new Testament of Jesus Christ," they will say. But they're not. That's dishonest.
There are many admirable and many objectionable things about Mormonism other than their concept of God. But their concept of God puts them outside the Christian tent.
That also applies to some forms of liberal protestantism...
True. I thought it was grossly dishonest of Spong to pretend he was a Christian.
[ 28. July 2013, 23:09: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
The trouble with Mormonism is that you are expected to take the Book of Mormon literally, and it is blatantly non-historical. Much of the Bible is non-historical as well but plenty of Christians don't take it literally.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Sylvander wrote:
quote:
I have spoken to many Mormons and they all say they never heard the stuff about God living with wife and son on the planet Kolob in the galaxy Kokaubeam in church. Apparently in practice this is not relevant to their teaching - so I well believe that inside their Church they feel Christian. An illusion born from ignorance about our faith, I think, but a genuine one.
I once read a Jack Chick comic in which it was speculated(somewhat uncharacteristically for Chick, who tends more toward absolute certainty) that the passageway to heaven lies behind some star in a distant galaxy.
Now, granted, Chick is a bit of an outlier, but I'd be willing to bet that there are LOTS of people in mainstream demoninations who, on a personal level, subscribe(if only be default) to some idea of God being a guy sitting on a throne in heaven, accesable to humans via space and time. Which comes pretty close to the Mormon idea of God as a created being up on Kolob.
This is kind of the reverse of your Mormon congregants, who believe in the traditional mainstream idea of God, unaware that they worship in a church that teaches the sci-fi idea of God on another planet. But still, if we're going to say(as I think most of us would) that the untutored Presbyterian who thinks God is up somewhere behind the dog star can still be considered a Christian, do we set the bar higher for orthodox Mormons who follow the teaching about Kolob?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
What are we talking about, the Mormons or the Amish? Seems to me we should stay on topic.
Because BWS mentioned them upthread.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
About the Amish, they seem to be very weird but their theology is not very different then what you get in average baptist churches. They´re certainly trinitarians. Here in South America there are the Mennonites, which are kind of cousins of the Amish. Those who live in rural areas tend to be very strict, and a small minority behaves exactly like the Amish. But those who live in big cities have become pretty much mainstream evangelicals.
Most Mormons I´ve talked too seemed to be monotheistic in their tone, but I´ve never engaged in serious religious discussion with any. I suppose the most weird aspects of their doctrine is only known to the more hardcore Mormons.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
A member of one particular Christian group can call members of another group "Christian" as well, without having to agree with their level of orthodoxy. From my catholic (or anglican) perspective there are others who self-identify as Christian and I am perfectly willing to go along with that, even though I may consider their expression of Christianity very heterodox indeed. It's not just "small o" orthodox Christians that get to be called Christians, or get to decide who can be called Christian IMHO.
So if the Mormons think of themselves as Christians, that's OK by me. Just not my particular cup of tea.
I don't think it's fair to equate Mormonism with Scientology. From everything I have seen of Scientology it seems to me to be none other than an on-going scam. (I tend to be sympathetic to the German government's view of Scientology.) However dodgy the 19th century beginnings of Mormonism probably were, mainstream Mormonism has grown into a sufficiently large group that they aren't being mentally enslaved as cult members (See my above post on Mormon supporters of Obama). It is important to distinguish mainstream Mormonism from small cultic offshoots like Warren Jeff's group.
Re Mormon additions to the canon of scripture, in their services, the Christian Scientist's read portions of Mary Baker Eddy's Science and Health with Keys to the Scripture -- whether they consider the Eddy work to be the canonical equivalent of the Christian Bible, I don't know. And some Christian groups treat Patristic writings as being as important to their doctrines as the Bible. Some might call that adding to the canon of scripture.
Re distinctive contributions to the world of religious art and architecture, what contributions has Pentecostalism made? (Not a criticism of Pentecostalism, as I don't think a groups contributions in this area have any bearing on their legitimacy as a religious group -- Although now as I think of it, they have made contributions in the area of religious music, I'd say.)
[ 29. July 2013, 03:13: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
The trouble with Mormonism is that you are expected to take the Book of Mormon literally, and it is blatantly non-historical. Much of the Bible is non-historical as well but plenty of Christians don't take it literally.
But more than a few Christians do, particularly in the U.S. -- and that includes some Christian denominations that insist on it. Creationism is one of the manifestations of this.
[ 29. July 2013, 03:20: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
BWS-- What's your problem with the Amish?
Stated simply, the Amish embolden atheists like no other Christian denomination.
???? Have you ever heard an atheist target them? I haven't. IME, they general go after traditional Christian beliefs, the Catholic church, and right-wing American Christians. And hypocrites.
quote:
They are the Christian version of the "Essenes". They are a punch line of late-night talk shows and fodder for 20/20-Dateline "rescue from religion" stories.
Ok, you do know that there's a long history of all kinds of Christian communities? Monastic communities, but lots of others.
AFAIK, the Amish don't claim any kind of esoteric spiritual knowledge, whereas the Essenes did.
Late-night TV talk shows make fun of EVERYBODY in the news, more or less.
The TV news magazine coverage of the Amish that I've seen has either been basic cultural info, or about the dangers of the rumsprina ("running around") year that Amish teens get in the outside world to decide which way they want to live. They're in a world they're not prepared for, and faced with the dangers of sex, STDs, substance abuse, etc. Then they have to decide which world to live in. They can't go back and forth.
And those same news magazines spend much more time on other religious communities and issues.
quote:
Life (i.e. the everyday struggle with evil) isn't as "ideal" as they would like, so rather than joining with other Christians against "Rome", they choose to go hang out in the "wilderness" and create their own "Jerusalem Temple" while they wait for God to restore everything. (They consider the belly of Jonah's whale to be a nice place to set up camp, if it means avoiding dealing with Ninevah...)
Where are you getting all this?? They fled religious persecution in Europe, and religious refugees often live in somewhat separatist communities.
You sound like you really *loathe* them.
quote:
Fundamentalism flourishes in that kind o
f environment, and when the Essenes of history went into battle in 70AD, they proved to be pretty useless.
(It's significant to me that nothing in the NT mentions Jesus or the early church having anything to do with the Qumran community.)
The Essenes had a different set of beliefs than the early Christians. While IIRC there were some parallels and belief in some kind of prophet of light, it didn't seem to *necessarily* refer to Jesus.
Fundamentalism flourishes in all sorts of environments, about all sorts of beliefs--religious, secular, scientific, music, fashion, nationalism...
Whatever their flaws, the Amish aren't doing any systematic recruiting. They just want to live their lives and their faith.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Gorpo wrote:
quote:
I suppose the most weird aspects of their doctrine is only known to the more hardcore Mormons.
Well, assuming by "weird" you mean "unorthodox", I think stuff like Jesus Visiting The Americas and Baptism Of The Dead are pretty well known among the Mormon rank and file.
The stuff about Kolob, maybe not so much. I'm not sure how much they know about God being married and having children.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Sylvander
Shipmate
# 12857
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Gorpo wrote:
... Baptism Of The Dead are pretty well known among the Mormon rank and file.
And among the Bible of course :-)
1 Cor 15:29
Posts: 1589 | From: Berlin | Registered: Jul 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Gorpo wrote:
quote:
I suppose the most weird aspects of their doctrine is only known to the more hardcore Mormons.
Well, assuming by "weird" you mean "unorthodox", I think stuff like Jesus Visiting The Americas and Baptism Of The Dead are pretty well known among the Mormon rank and file.
The stuff about Kolob, maybe not so much. I'm not sure how much they know about God being married and having children.
The missionary training used to (I don't know if it still does) provide them with scripts to pursue if these questions were raised. I suppose that the missionary cohort could be called hard-core, but it is pretty sizeable and pretty well all leadership is drawn from it.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
Stated simply, the Amish embolden atheists like no other Christian denomination.
???? Have you ever heard an atheist target them? I haven't.
I didn't say that they "targeted" Amish. The Amish embolden atheists in their conviction that all Christianity (including mainstream Christianity) is fundamentally anti-modern.
From their point of view, the Amish are following Christianity to its logical conclusions: reject modernity, believe outdated ideas, live outdated lives. (Therefore, it's a good thing to be an atheist and be free from all that...)
This relates back to my original topic of Mormonism: If something as laughably false as Mormonism can gain millions of adherents, then atheists need not believe that mainstream Christianity necessarily has any core truth that justifies their billions of believers. Both Mormonism and the Amish provide templates for the deconstruction and delegitimation of Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
They are the Christian version of the "Essenes". They are a punch line of late-night talk shows and fodder for 20/20-Dateline "rescue from religion" stories.
AFAIK, the Amish don't claim any kind of esoteric spiritual knowledge, whereas the Essenes did.
Of course they "aren't Essenes". They are 'like' the Essenes in their willingness to separate themselves from the real problems of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Late-night TV talk shows make fun of EVERYBODY in the news, more or less.
Not exactly. You will never hear a Leno or Letterman explicitly insult mainstream Christian beliefs. (The advertisers would bolt.) However, they are more than happy to pick on fringe groups, and what the secularist comedy writers say about the Amish is what they would like to say (but can't) about the rest of us.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Life (i.e. the everyday struggle with evil) isn't as "ideal" as they would like, so rather than joining with other Christians against "Rome", they choose to go hang out in the "wilderness" and create their own "Jerusalem Temple" while they wait for God to restore everything. (They consider the belly of Jonah's whale to be a nice place to set up camp, if it means avoiding dealing with Ninevah...)
Where are you getting all this?? They fled religious persecution in Europe, and religious refugees often live in somewhat separatist communities.
I am literally describing the historical situation of the Essenes (in such a way that invites comparison with the motivations of the Amish).
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Whatever their flaws, the Amish aren't doing any systematic recruiting. They just want to live their lives and their faith.
Not true - living our lives and our faith is what us mainstream Christians are doing. The Amish are living under a deliberate judgmental separation from the rest of us, making the symbolic statement to the world that our lives are "evil".
Christianity as a whole would be better off if these people would "return" to the modern world and focus their energies on helping us all fight the sin in the world, rather than fighting the world itself.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The Amish are just early modern. Evangelicals are as modern as it gets. Modern is the problem. So atheists are right.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
BWSmith: quote:
Christianity as a whole would be better off if these people would "return" to the modern world and focus their energies on helping us all fight the sin in the world, rather than fighting the world itself.
Which reminds me: I really dislike the whole "Not of this World" craze. Yeah, I know it's biblical but so is "The world is his and he made it, and his hands prepared the dry land". Me, I'm trying to work in the world. The Amish may do as they please. I believe the Godhead makes use of us as he finds us.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Weird. As far as I can remember I have never in my life seen or heard anyione say anythign bad about the Amish or Mennonites at all before this thread. What little media representation they have in this country is overwhelmingly posiitive. (And it is very little) The few Americans I iknow who have lived in Amish-inhabited parts of the country mostly seem to rather like living around them. There reputation, insofar as they have one at all here, is probably that they are mostly harmless and rather quant.
The Christians we love to hate collectively are American-style TV evangelists. They are the poster children for atheists. They probably do almost as much harm to the progress of Christianity as suicide bombers do for the progress of Islam. Basically they put people off in droves. But not Amish. I suspect that if all American evangelicals lived like Amish, Christianity would probably be a lot less unpopular.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
My experience with the local Amish community has led me to wonder if they worship CHrist as much as they do Amish culture. They seem to spend an inordinate amount of time and effort arguing about the length of hem, the color of a buggy, whether or not zippers are acceptable, and who is and who isn't going directly to hell. I know it's an entirely different mindset but I do not understand how it is more pleasing to God to impersonate 16th cent. German/Swiss farmers than it is to live out one's faith in this world at this time.
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
Living in a closed community offers its own problems as any monk or nun will tell you, like having to put up with peoples annoying little habits, for a start. Learning to live with such things without feeling any animosity towards your brother is just as difficult in such a community as it is in the wider world. In that sense it is not an escape. Personally I've always found something quite attractive in such a life, even if I haven't opted for it.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Weird. As far as I can remember I have never in my life seen or heard anyione say anythign bad about the Amish or Mennonites at all before this thread. What little media representation they have in this country is overwhelmingly posiitive. (And it is very little) The few Americans I iknow who have lived in Amish-inhabited parts of the country mostly seem to rather like living around them. There reputation, insofar as they have one at all here, is probably that they are mostly harmless and rather quant.
The Christians we love to hate collectively are American-style TV evangelists. They are the poster children for atheists. They probably do almost as much harm to the progress of Christianity as suicide bombers do for the progress of Islam. Basically they put people off in droves. But not Amish. I suspect that if all American evangelicals lived like Amish, Christianity would probably be a lot less unpopular.
Yes, I'd go along with this. Humour about the Amish tends to be along the lines of poking gentle fun(eg. the teen-comedy Sex Drive, where the main Amish character is shown as kind, helpful, but a little passive-aggressive).
And I think in Witness they were generally shown as positive, weren't they? In general, there's nothing like the roasting that TV evangelists get being directed at the Amish.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And I think in Witness they were generally shown as positive, weren't they?
Generally postive? And the rest! It was practically a recruiting film. Or would be if they recruited. The barn-raising scene almost made you want to hand in your notice and escape to the country there and then.
Or jump back forty years or more to the the rather wonderful Powell and Pressburger (and Vaughan Williams, and David Lean) film 49th parallel which is a sort of Canadian Tourist Board meets the Anti-Nazi League propaganda film which has a section set in a Hutterite community. And makes it look rather glorious.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Or jump back forty years or more to the the rather wonderful Powell and Pressburger (and Vaughan Williams, and David Lean) film 49th parallel which is a sort of Canadian Tourist Board meets the Anti-Nazi League propaganda film which has a section set in a Hutterite community. And makes it look rather glorious.
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Thanks for the film recomm.
For the record, though, Hutterites in Canada were suject to a lot of discrimination, especially in my home province of Alberta. Interestingly, though, it was a Social Credit government(some kiwis might know what I'm talking about), heany with fundamentalist Christian influence, which did the worst against them. These guys were definitely NOT the 1940s equivalent of Letterman-loving secular liberals.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Re "Witness":
Oh, yes, it was both Amish-positive and wonderful. I loved the barn-raising, too. I've always wanted to do something like that.
(Tangentially: Harrison Ford, who had the male lead, had actually worked as a carpenter, between film gigs. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
Expanding the tangent: Harrison Ford had been hired by George Lukas to do carpentry work at Lukas' home when Lukas hired him for the tiny part in American Graffiti which lead to his star-making role as Han Solo in Star Wars. The force was with him!
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
My experience with the local Amish community has led me to wonder if they worship Christ as much as they do Amish culture.
ORGANMEISTER hits the nail on the head here.
(I'm always surprised at the number of Christians who praise the lifestyle of the Amish, but aren't willing to become Amish themselves, or let their kids join in.)
From the 19th-century on, westerners have delighted in "dabbling" in bits and pieces of exotic cultures for our own entertainment. Hence, it is almost a knee-jerk reaction that when one considers the Amish, the instinct is to treat them like Navajos selling trinkets on the reservation: "respect their cultural tradition" by not taking it (or them) too seriously. Reduce them to something less than human, take your souvenir photos (which they don't allow), have a good laugh, and drive home...
But the Amish are not some exotic tribe of natives to be gawked at, nor admirable practitioners of some highly-disciplined diet/exercise program. They are a Christian sect of people like you and me that are continually enacting a worldview that pronounces judgment on the rest of us Christians. They are betting their collective lives on the notion that we are unrepentant sinners by virtue of our technology.
It is our responsibility as their Christian brothers to take that worldview seriously, evaluate our stance on it, and offer judgment in return (if any).
Once we choose to take off the tourist caps and consider them as fellow Christians, the reality is not particularly admirable. The Amish are, as ORGANMEISTER said, obsessed with their own anti-modernity, having made a cultural idol of it in the same way that the Judaizers of Paul's day treated circumcision, the Sabbath, and the food laws.
And (getting back to the original topic), the Amish embolden atheists with their anti-modernity in the same way that the Mormons embolden atheists with their anti-historical reason.
Some Christians argue that "radical Islam is the real Islam", that is, all muslims would think like the terrorists if they were only stripped of their need to compromise with the west and were free to follow the Quran. Likewise, atheists can comfort themselves in the notion that "Mormons and Amish are the real Christians", in that the pursuit of Christianity in its purest form takes you straight out of Enlightenment rationalism and into something medieval and oppressive...
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
But the Amish do have technology--it's just that it's frozen at the level of the 16th century.
It's not clear to me why they believe that the internal combustion engine is a more perilous invention than the wheel, but clearly they do.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Why can´t we say God bless them? Why can´t we acknowledge their strengths? The points they have? I´d certainly engage with any exclusion on their part, any hostility, as I do all those here who exclude me in formal hostility. And bless them in that.
I mean, what would Jesus do?
What will He do with Muslims and atheists and Hindus and animists? In the rest of this century, this millenium?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I´d certainly engage with any exclusion on their part, any hostility, as I do all those here who exclude me in formal hostility...I mean, what would Jesus do?
Well, did Jesus engage in any hostility with the Pharisees and Sadducees? (If so, how can we justify never being hostile to anyone?)
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What will He do with Muslims and atheists and Hindus and animists? In the rest of this century, this millenium?
Well, if the Old Testament covenants are any indication, he will destroy them and exalt us. (Or maybe destroy them and us and exalt the Jews...)
But if the New Testament parables are any indication (Prodigal Son, "last shall be first"), he'll exalt them if they show basic repentance and punish us if we grumble about it. :-)
Ultimately, God's going to do whatever He wants to with people, and he can judge them in ways that we cannot see. The best we can do is try to be as faithful as possible to our perception of what Jesus wants us to do, and hope that God loves us enough to reward us with eternal life...
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
But the Amish do have technology--it's just that it's frozen at the level of the 16th century.
It's not clear to me why they believe that the internal combustion engine is a more perilous invention than the wheel, but clearly they do.
I thought that this was perhaps an oversimplification so found this article.
Amish and technology
I'd seen gadgets at use in fields in film, and in on programme, they actually had a washing machine - I'd been thinking that men's equipment was OK, but things to make women's lives easier, not, but this was therefore wrong.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
My experience with the local Amish community has led me to wonder if they worship Christ as much as they do Amish culture.
I can't speak to your experience, but I spent about two decades doing anthropological research with the Amish (including living with and worshiping with them). I do not believe that they worship their own culture over that of their Christian faith.
The logic of their practice is (in a nutshell) that anything that may act to provide temptation to weaken faith should be avoided. Since they have a very strong communal sense of faith, this would include those things that might act to weaken community. And what those temptations are may differ from church district to church district. The Amish are more diverse than people know.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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ORGANMEISTER
Shipmate
# 6621
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Posted
RE: Fr. Weber; The local Amish do use technology selectively. The do use electricity as long as it is not received from the grid. They use lots of batteries. I frequent a local farmer's market which numbers quite a few Amish among their vendors. The use handheld calculators and cell phones. They also use electric cash registers which are powered by automobile batteries. As I understand it, using electricity from the grid would make them dependent on the larger society for power. Of course, using batteries makes them dependent on the Energizer Bunny!
The best explanation of Amish culture I've found is "The Riddle of Amish Culture" by Donald Kraybill, professor of Anabaptist studies at Elizabethtown College in Elizabethtown, PA. He's made several appearances on CNN in recent months commenting on the cable TV series "Amish Mafia". As I said, it's a totally different mindset and Kraybill does a good job trying to explain it.
All of this reminds me of a very orthodox Jewish acquaintance who was telling me that his Rabbi decreed that it was OK to use a timing device to turn on electricity during the sabbath but it was not OK to use motion sensors to accomplish the same thing. It seems that motion sensors imply some sort of voluntary action which is not permitted.
To my mind all the above seems like some sort of legalistic game but...................
Posts: 3162 | From: Somerset, PA - USA | Registered: May 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank you sabine. What a great thing to have done. You have surely blessed them as they have you. Just as God intended in Abraham and His Seed.
Bee Dubbyer. Bless.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
Ultimately, God's going to do whatever He wants to with people, and he can judge them in ways that we cannot see. The best we can do is try to be as faithful as possible to our perception of what Jesus wants us to do, and hope that God loves us enough to reward us with eternal life...
...which is what the Amish are doing...
Are you familiar with their reaction to the massacre by an outsider at one of their schools? (See Religious Tolerance and Wikipedia.) They displayed practical compassion and forgiveness. Not such a bad witness.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
Stated simply, the Amish embolden atheists like no other Christian denomination.
???? Have you ever heard an atheist target them? I haven't.
I didn't say that they "targeted" Amish. The Amish embolden atheists in their conviction that all Christianity (including mainstream Christianity) is fundamentally anti-modern.
If that were true, wouldn't they have targeted them by now? Wouldn't we be besieged by articles, interviews, and PR about it?
Christopher Hitchens certainly didn't hold back about Mother Teresa. Richard Dawkins is an equal-opportunity critic of Christianity and religion in general, ISTM. I doubt Voltaire and Sartre spent much time worrying about the Amish, if they knew about them. I don't think I ever heard Madaline Murray O'Hare vent about them, either.
quote:
From their point of view, the Amish are following Christianity to its logical conclusions: reject modernity, believe outdated ideas, live outdated lives. (Therefore, it's a good thing to be an atheist and be free from all that...)
Have you ever heard an actual atheist actually *say* this??
quote:
This relates back to my original topic of Mormonism: If something as laughably false as Mormonism can gain millions of adherents, then atheists need not believe that mainstream Christianity necessarily has any core truth that justifies their billions of believers. Both Mormonism and the Amish provide templates for the deconstruction and delegitimation of Christianity.
They don't NEED Mormons and Amish to keep them from believing that! People have disbelieved Christianity from the beginning of it--and probably disbelieved in any kind of Deity from the beginning of our species.
Atheists who actively poke at Christianity (and not all do) find plenty of targets: virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, whether Jesus even existed, was Jesus based on the story of Osiris and/or Krishna, etc.
quote:
Of course they "aren't Essenes". They are 'like' the Essenes in their willingness to separate themselves from the real problems of the world.
Well, the Essenes didn't invent separatist communities. People in such communities (Amish, Essene, Buddhist monastics, Hassidic Jews, women's spiritually-focused land-owning cooperatives, etc.) still have to deal with many problems of the world: themselves, their neighbors, the community as a whole, health, staying fed and housed.
You can get away from some aspects of The World, but you're still in it.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Late-night TV talk shows make fun of EVERYBODY in the news, more or less.
quote:
Not exactly. You will never hear a Leno or Letterman explicitly insult mainstream Christian beliefs. (The advertisers would bolt.) However, they are more than happy to pick on fringe groups, and what the secularist comedy writers say about the Amish is what they would like to say (but can't) about the rest of us.
But Leno and Letterman do make fun of Christian statements and behavior that they find evil or stupid. ("The pope said today,..', pedophile priests, etc.) I don't know that the comedy writers are secularists or atheists. You could just as easily say they're against all government, women, banks, the weather, education, airlines, pets, old people, little kids, and obscenely rich celebrities. Some humorists think *anything* is fair game.
And there are religious folks in show biz.
quote:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Golden Key:
[qb] Where are you getting all this?? They fled religious persecution in Europe, and religious refugees often live in somewhat separatist communities.
I am literally describing the historical situation of the Essenes (in such a way that invites comparison with the motivations of the Amish).
But they're apples and oranges.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Whatever their flaws, the Amish aren't doing any systematic recruiting. They just want to live their lives and their faith.
Not true - living our lives and our faith is what us mainstream Christians are doing. The Amish are living under a deliberate judgmental separation from the rest of us, making the symbolic statement to the world that our lives are "evil".
Christianity as a whole would be better off if these people would "return" to the modern world and focus their energies on helping us all fight the sin in the world, rather than fighting the world itself.
The more I read your posts, the more personal they sound.
Are you feeling judged? Or like the Elder Brother to their Prodigal? You sure sound like it.
Have you or someone you care about been hurt by someone Amish?
Do you really think the battle between good and evil turns on whether or not a relatively small group of Christian separatists gives up everything ('cause that's what it would mean) and infiltrates the modern world for Christ?
Have *you* given up that much???
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
Ultimately, God's going to do whatever He wants to with people, and he can judge them in ways that we cannot see. The best we can do is try to be as faithful as possible to our perception of what Jesus wants us to do, and hope that God loves us enough to reward us with eternal life...
...which is what the Amish are doing...
No, "Amish Jesus" wouldn't march into Jerusalem and get himself crucified.
If Amish Jesus and his disciples go into a city, he risks having his personal holiness tainted by sinful people and their sinful ideas.
Amish Jesus would separate from Jewish society and intensify his purity (which is exactly what the Essenes did).
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
This image is your Amish Jesus BWSmith. And reflects, refracts its projector.
Happy to take that up in Hell, as it´s about you, not the Amish.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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BWSmith
Shipmate
# 2981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
This image is your Amish Jesus BWSmith.
Fine, if Jesus is off limits, then what about the early church?
The Amish certainly are very good at following 1 Corinthians, with its charge against having a church divided between rich and poor.
They do not do so well when it comes to relations with the wider world. In Acts, we do not find a group so dedicated to its personal holiness that it isolates itself from the Gentiles or opposing Jews. The Judaizers are a step in that direction, and they are solidly condemned by Paul.
The $64,000 question then, is how to live in the world without being consumed by it? This is a struggle that mainstream Christians deal with every day, but cannot avoid.
The Amish seem to believe that perfect holiness is possible if one adheres to their 'Law' and keep themselves pure. This seems to be the kind of mindset that Jesus and Paul directly opposed.
Such legalism also leads them to odd hypocrisies that ORGANMEISTER already pointed out, like the use of batteries in certain situations, but only at a low voltage, and since don't make their own batteries, they can buy them from us "English", even though they can't simply wire up to a power plant.
Posts: 722 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think the washing machine ran off a generator - but that was in a colony that allowed the BBC in.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It´s a struggle we must win. They are closer to showing us the way than most.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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sabine
Shipmate
# 3861
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Thank you sabine. What a great thing to have done. You have surely blessed them as they have you. Just as God intended in Abraham and His Seed.
Bee Dubbyer. Bless.
Well, I'm not sure exactly what you mean here oor how it puts me in the same league as Abraham. Maybe my metaphorical cells are asleep today.
I was invited into Amish society after having a conversation with an Amish woman I encountered outside of any thought of anthropolgy. We had a lovely afternoon together and then I was invited to their home the next weekend when they were hosting worship. I ended up staying for a while and with their permission, observing. My friendship continued over a couple of decades and led to more formal research, all with permission.
It was a period of much mutual respect, and I am still in contact with some of the people I met.
sabine
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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano
Posts: 5887 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
We are called to be a blessing, chesed, grace, shalom, peace and you certainly are in the family of Abraham, whose Seed is his father.
Wow, let's start a movement! The Family of Abraham starting with Christians, Jews and Muslims!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I was surprised to discover that the Amish weren't struggling in small, declining communities, but that they'd actually grown in number significantly since the turn of the 20th c. This is mostly due to a high birthrate and the retention of young adults, but it's still impressive. If the Amish feel that they're in a positive place, they're not going to pay much attention to criticism from outsiders.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BWSmith:
And (getting back to the original topic), the Amish embolden atheists with their anti-modernity in the same way that the Mormons embolden atheists with their anti-historical reason.
Some Christians argue that "radical Islam is the real Islam", that is, all muslims would think like the terrorists if they were only stripped of their need to compromise with the west and were free to follow the Quran. Likewise, atheists can comfort themselves in the notion that "Mormons and Amish are the real Christians", in that the pursuit of Christianity in its purest form takes you straight out of Enlightenment rationalism and into something medieval and oppressive...
Atheists in the US are far more likely to think that conservative evangelical Christians are the real Christians, which does a huge disservice to all of us who find conservative evangelicalism contrary to the teachings of Christ.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We are called to be a blessing, chesed, grace, shalom, peace and you certainly are in the family of Abraham, whose Seed is his father.
Wow, let's start a movement! The Family of Abraham starting with Christians, Jews and Muslims!
Too late! Presidential speechwriters have long (well, since Clinton through Bush and now Obama) used the phrase Abrahamic religions in dozens of speeches, statements, and addresses.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Ah, but not The Family of Abraham. Which should include all who claim spiritual descent from him: who should be challengeable, criticizable on being a blessing. Starting with our own eye beams.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
Ship of Fools Amish
I was following a forum on what we think of Mormons and it suddenly turned over to discussing the Amish. Hmmm!
The Amish are part of the wider ‘Anabaptist’ movement; they were founded as a distinct group among the Swiss Anabaptists by a leader called Jacob Amann who thought that many Anabaptists had become too worldly, and he called them to a stricter position in many areas and yes, a clearly separatist agenda. The Amish, like Britain’s ‘Exclusive Brethren’ have often shown the typical faults that come with such separatism ‘from the world’; but note that some degree of separation is a Christian ideal – Paul taught his readers to ‘come out from among them and be separate’. Also note that ‘The Amish’ are not a monolithic united organisation of clones, but cover quite a spectrum, as do the related and generally less strict Mennonites.
The basic beliefs of the Amish, unlike those of the Mormons, are ‘orthodox’ biblical Christianity similar to all Protestants except in the area of state-and-church relationships where they insist on a strict separation of church and state, and related to that they are pacifists; and if you actually check out your New Testaments you’ll realise that in that area they have got it basically right and the ‘mainstream’ denominations of ‘Christendom’ like Anglicans, Lutherans and Presbyterians have got it wrong!
Yes, the Amish are a bit extreme – but in some ways their biggest fault is that they do almost no evangelism; it is rare for outsiders to join their communities. It is arguable that this aspect of Amish extremism is a reaction to (a) the way the whole situation in ‘The West’ is distorted by the existence of ‘Christendom’ – supposedly ‘Christian countries’, and (b) the fact that the Amish and other Anabaptists have suffered centuries of persecution by these supposedly Christian states.
Just in Northern Ireland alone Catholics and the various Protestants alike, because of their adherence to the idea of a Christian state, have been guilty of terrible conduct – Alys Harte’s documentary for BBC3 this Monday quoted 3,500 deaths just in the recent ‘Troubles’ which kicked off in the 1960s. Yet these are churches/denominations whose orthodoxy most of you out there would not be questioning, indeed most of you probably belong to the mainland UK or other lands' equivalents. The pacifism of Amish and other Anabaptists means that they would not be involved in Ulster’s guns and petrol bombs, nor would they be participating in Crusades, Inquisitions and the like. The faults of the Amish (and they certainly have faults!) are specks compared to the planks in the eye of ‘Christendom’.
Leave the Amish alone (or start a fresh strand to discuss them properly?) and get this strand back to criticism of the truly unorthodox Mormons and what would appear to be the scam of the supposed ‘Book of Mormon’ on which they are founded. Oh yes, and note that the Mormons do seem to agree with ‘Christendom’, and disagree with the NT, in accepting warfare – in their early years they fought a war with the USA to defend their practice of polygamy. So while criticising the Mormons perhaps you could also look at and be critical of the unbiblical practices of Christendom.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
Sometimes it seems like the whole point about a religion is that certain ideas are above criticism, to be accepted without question as part of the price of membership of the community.
From that perspective, perhaps we ought to feel sorry for the Mormons, as the stuff they're obliged to respect and defend is well inside the fruitcake zone.
But there seems to be this strange dynamic whereby nonsense is fruitful - the further out on a limb the ideas, the greater the sense of community amongst those who really believe.
And then that core attracts an outer circle who are in it for the way of life, the true community, and are happy to take the ideas on the say-so of the good people of the community.
Just as for any religious group.
Those who judge people on the quality of their thinking may well look down on the Mormons. But those who think Christianity is more about living the Way of Jesus may well find many Mormons ahead of them on the path to heaven.
Maybe that's what it is about the Mormons that discomforts us - they're a challenge to the assumption of a link between the good and the true.
Best wishes,
Russ
PS: Agreed, Martin, I'm something of a fan of OSC also.
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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