|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: A call to ordained ministry
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
I have heard it said that one should not be an ordained minister unless one is utterly convinced God has called you to this particular ministry.
I have also heard it said that some niggling doubt is healthy and a good thing.
What say The Ship?
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
|
Posted
I think that being absolutely sure of anything faith related is a warning sign concerning someone's grasp of reality.
--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
This is a very modern insistence. The early Church was very happy to press people into Orders if it thought they were sufficiently holy and had the right gifts.
quote:
From +Rowan William's Silence and honey cakes
Epiphanius of Salamis relates the remarkable story of how he ordained Paulinian, a brother of Jerome, to the diaconate and the priesthood [...] He wanted toordain Paulinian [...] but Paulinian always used to go into hiding when he suspected that this was the intent of the bishop. 'Consequently I was surprised,' Epiphanius writes, 'when by the disposition of God he came to me with the deacons of the monastery and a number of other brethren in order to make amends [...] When therefore the collect was being celebrated in the church of the villa near our monastery, while he was completely unaware and suspected nothing, I ordered him to be seized by several deacons and his mouth to be covered [...] And first I ordained him deacon, admonishing him with the fear of God and forcing him to minister, though he struggled a great deal [...] And when he had ministered at the altar, again with great difficulty, and with his mouth closed, I ordained him a priest, and with teh same arguments that I had previously used I now insisted that he take his place among the priests.'
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I have heard it said that one should not be an ordained minister unless one is utterly convinced God has called you to this particular ministry.
I have also heard it said that some niggling doubt is healthy and a good thing.
I'd advise handling it in the same way as any other important decision. In no particular order - Pray, consult with trusted friends and family, read the Bible, consult with wise Christians through history (through books, talks etc.); and then do what feels right in your spirit.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
|
Posted
There’s two bits to this …
Someone in Ministry has to be reasonably convinced that God has called them to Ordained Ministry – it isn’t a particularly glamorous job and can be extremely thankless. It can also be very hard on the Minister’s family. (Not experienced much of this first hand, thank goodness, but The Stories I Have Heard ™ ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Never work with children, animals or Christians). It’s the reasonably convinced that helps a Minister keep on keeping on.
The person seeking to go into Ministry also has to have that call confirmed by others.
[ETA: Someone seeking to be a Baptist minister in the UK would have to the call confirmed by their church before going onto MinRec, applying for college and study. You can be told no at any stage. Once you've graduated, the call isn't considered to be confirmed until a congregation asks you to be their minister. You then do a 3 year probationary period before being accredited. Sounds exhausting when you type it! ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif) ]
The discernment process is really weird because sometimes you go through it and get told “Not yet, try again later” and there may be things to do first or stuff that needs to fall into place before you get accepted. Other times the answer is “Not A Chance! Ever!”. (It can be difficult to work out whether you fit into the first camp or the second).
Tubbs
[ 01. August 2013, 11:44: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
--------------------
"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
|
Posted
My atheist view is probably one you don't want to read! No God to do any calling; it is a self-generated idea.
--------------------
I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
I would never have guessed
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I have heard it said that one should not be an ordained minister unless one is utterly convinced God has called you to this particular ministry.
I have also heard it said that some niggling doubt is healthy and a good thing.
What say The Ship?
I still have this sneaking suspicion that God was actually pointing to someone standing just behind me who happened to be called Stejjie when I thought I heard Him call me to ministry. Either that or I was having a really bad day at work. As I went through the discernment process, I was constantly being amazed that every (figurative) door I came to was opened to me - clearly God (and the people involved) saw something that I haven't.
Which is perhaps the point and the reason I'd tend towards the latter. If we think we've got this ministry thing sussed then we're probably bound to come a cropper. If we realise that it's by God's grace alone that we do any of this, that we're called to this, then we might just learn to be reliant on Him and be confident in Him.
Wish I could do that, though...
--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
IME "don't make very good ministers" should read "actively drive people from the Church"
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
StarlightUK
Shipmate
# 4592
|
Posted
I am at the beginning of the discernment process in the CofE. I have had a constant "sense" of some kind of call to ordained ministry since my late teens, even during a very prolonged period when I effectively said "stuff the church, and stuff God"!
Having said that, I am procrastinating terribly with completing the form that will formally set me on this path of discovery. I do have a very real sense of unworthiness, even while believing that it is a path I must pursue.
Posts: 76 | From: Brighton | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I've just been sort of working on a hunch for the past 30 years.
The longer I go on, the more I doubt that a call from God need necessarily have much to do with it. That's fine if you're going to be a Jeremiah or such-like (and please, God, let's not have too many of those), but most of us are just the odd-job persons in our Father's house. We muddle along and keep things going, because that's what we're supposed to be doing. We just do the things that help a little community to be the local branch of God's holy people, and try not to get in the way too much.
I don't see there's much need there for a divine "IT'S YOU!" for that kind of thing - perhaps just someone going and saying, "Um ... excuse me. I think I might be able to make a life out of being ordained, if you'll have me." Or, in a rather less extreme version of what Vade Mecum posted, is there room for the Church to say, "I hope you don't mind us saying this, but we think you should be ordained."?
One of the problems with a divine singling-out, I think, is that it does tend to come with a ready-made pedestal.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
I explored a call when I was 21, and still in college. My school got some money from the Lilly foundation, and set up stipends for people to do summer internships at churches to explore a call to ordained ministry. I ended up in New York City with three other interns. Two were very sure they were called; I was exploring what being called was all about; and the last roommate was set to go to law school, but wanted to explore being a vocational deacon.
At the time, I decided that I was not called because the two roommates who were really sure never stopped talking about and reading about church issues and growth, while I found myself being distracted by other reading, other things going on in the city, etc. It just didn't feel like something I wanted to think about or talk about all the time.
Twelve years on, I have not changed my mind, but my sureness that I am not called comes from a different place. I actually worked as a lay minister, and learned that my talents and weaknesses do not balance out in a way that would make me a great rector. I would have been a hell of a Sunday morning priest. I guarantee that I could officiate a mass more smoothly than many of the priests in this diocese. But I also know that I would be the last person in the world you would want in charge of picking someone to run for the vestry or to be on the stewardship committee- I hate asking people to volunteer to do stuff. It took experience to learn this, and it is a far better reason to not be a priest than the fact that I didn't want to spend a summer in New York in my early 20s talking about church all the time.
The interesting thing about that group is that none of us have been ordained yet. The two who were sure went to seminary, one dropped out and is a lay leader at his church, and the other graduated but has not been ordained for reasons that I do not know.
So you can be really sure and still change your mind. Which is why I think that it is a different kind of sureness than we might be used to.
I eventually went to law school. All it took to convince me that I needed to study law was one hour long class at a law school I visited. My mind just lit up in a way that told me I was wired for this stuff. It wasn't something that I hadn't thought about before, but it just felt natural in a way that ministry never did, and I never looked back for a second.
Anyone can want to be a priest, and any time you want something, you can also doubt that you want it. Calling, I think, is a sense that this is really what you are supposed to be doing. It is finding a comfort in ordained ministry that you have found nowhere else. You can doubt that you will always have the right answers or make the right decisions. But you have to be sure that being a priest is going to allow you to use your talents and balance out your weaknesses in the best possible way to serve God.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
My atheist view is probably one you don't want to read! No God to do any calling; it is a self-generated idea.
You know, by this point we could probably all take that as read.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I eventually went to law school. All it took to convince me that I needed to study law was one hour long class at a law school I visited. My mind just lit up in a way that told me I was wired for this stuff. It wasn't something that I hadn't thought about before, but it just felt natural in a way that ministry never did, and I never looked back for a second.
Thanks for sharing your story, Og; that's really inspiring. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) It illustrates my view that people can be 'called' to just about any field of secular work, in exactly the same way that people talk about being 'called' to full-time vicar-ing.
I was about to say 'full-time ministry' there but IMO every Christian is called to full-time ministry, just for most of us that won't entail being employed by a church / Christian organisation. We're all supposed to be a full-time Christian worker. (Shameless blog link ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) )
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
I think it should be looked at like a job. Do you fit? Do you want to do the job with that company? If not, don't bother, if you do, go for an interview.
I don;t believe God calls people to Ordained Ministry at all. People like to claim this to justify their position as "special people". In the end, they are employees of an organisation, there to forward the aims of the organisation. Nothing special, nothing "divinely ordained". Far too often, arrogantly claiming to be special.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
Apparently the old Bishop in this diocese (and probably lots of other Bishops) used to start the interview with a trap question: why do you want to be ordained? When the candidate answered "to feed the hungry, to cloth the sick, to visit those in prison" and so forth, the Bishop would say, "That's why you get baptized. Why do you want to be ordained?"
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think it should be looked at like a job. Do you fit? Do you want to do the job with that company? If not, don't bother, if you do, go for an interview.
I don;t believe God calls people to Ordained Ministry at all. People like to claim this to justify their position as "special people". In the end, they are employees of an organisation, there to forward the aims of the organisation. Nothing special, nothing "divinely ordained". Far too often, arrogantly claiming to be special.
Like to provide anything like a justification for this?
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
|
Posted
Actually, I do think there's something in SCK's post: I do think we're called to serve God wherever we are. I was just as "called" in that sense when I was a civil servant as I am now as an ordained minister. I'm sure one thing we need to do more is publicly recognise this and help people to recognise this for themselves.
So in one sense, ministers are no more called than anyone else, it's just we're called to one particular position. But, at the risk of self-justification, I do think there's something different about ordained ministry (not more special), in terms of the training it requires, the demands it places on you, the expectations others have of you etc. Which may be why the church makes a "big deal" of it. You can see why James wrote that not many should be teachers...
--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
Apparently the old Bishop in this diocese (and probably lots of other Bishops) used to start the interview with a trap question: why do you want to be ordained? When the candidate answered "to feed the hungry, to cloth the sick, to visit those in prison" and so forth, the Bishop would say, "That's why you get baptized. Why do you want to be ordained?"
Heh. I had a sorta similar discussion with our newly-minted transitional deacon when he accidentally referred to me as the Rector (I'm the Senior Warden, the actual rector's out on sabbatical). God and I are very clear that my ministries are best carried out in the laity. Plus I get to boss those in collars about.
From my experience as someone called to the laity (I'mna get t-shirts printed up with that on 'em one of these days) there's always some person who thinks you need to be in Holy Orders when you start showing too much interest in churchly dealings. I think some of the people I've see pass through discernment committees heard the voices of others one too many times saying, "Oh, you like lace/liturgy/ancient Hebrew/bossing people around, you should be a priest!" and thought that was the calling of God.
Then again, I'm pretty sure that's the point of discernment committees, to sort those voices out.
--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
But, at the risk of self-justification, I do think there's something different about ordained ministry (not more special), in terms of the training it requires, the demands it places on you, the expectations others have of you etc. Which may be why the church makes a "big deal" of it. You can see why James wrote that not many should be teachers...
This might be a nit-pick but you've sort of elided ordained ministry with teaching here. Are they the same thing? I don't think so - many people are teachers (in the Christian sense) without being ordained, and many ordained people have gifts primarily in areas other than teaching (ISTM).
There's a dangerous tendency, I think, to expect ordained people to be skilled at a wide range of very different roles / tasks. Isn't this part of the reason why ordained ministry can often be so draining and demanding?
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
|
Posted
In reply to Vade Mecum, of course I am not Schroedinger's Cat, so I don't know what he thinks, but my experience has been that ordained ministry like the other jobs I have come across, contains some people who are very good at it, some who are ok, and some who are not terribly good.
It has occurred to me that one possible reason for this is if its ranks are filled in the same way as the other jobs, by ordinary human judgement of who might be good at it, which doesn't always turn out to be right.
--------------------
We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
But, at the risk of self-justification, I do think there's something different about ordained ministry (not more special), in terms of the training it requires, the demands it places on you, the expectations others have of you etc. Which may be why the church makes a "big deal" of it. You can see why James wrote that not many should be teachers...
This might be a nit-pick but you've sort of elided ordained ministry with teaching here. Are they the same thing? I don't think so - many people are teachers (in the Christian sense) without being ordained, and many ordained people have gifts primarily in areas other than teaching (ISTM).
There's a dangerous tendency, I think, to expect ordained people to be skilled at a wide range of very different roles / tasks. Isn't this part of the reason why ordained ministry can often be so draining and demanding?
No, not nit-picking at all and a perfectly good point (and there I was trying to be all conciliatory with you... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ). I think you're right: ordination covers a huge range of roles and perhaps too many. I personally came into this whole ministry thing through preaching (I still believe it's where God's gifted me, I'm just not sure I'm very good at showing that gift...) and am blessed with a church which contains a number of people who are good at the admin stuff that I'm not. I also recognise that pastoral care is a significant part of what I'm called to do, though it's something I have to work at. But the pressure to be all sorts of things from meeter-and-greeter to youth worker (which I am not trained in) to would-be electrician is huge and, at times, hard to resist when you don't want anyone to let you down.
--------------------
A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
|
Posted
I'm about to go to theological college to be formed for ordained ministry in the CofE (if I say that enough times I might believe it and make some headway with the packing).
I did have a sense of calling that wouldn't go away, and I thought it might be ordination. But I was very open to it being something else too.
My approach to the process so far has been: this is who I feel called to be/what I feel called to do/what others think I'm good at does that sound like ordination to you? Or Religious Life? Or Reader ministry? Or...?
We worked out that my particular 'stuff' seemed to fit with ordination. And that felt 'right' to pursue. And here I am. Learning the Greek alphabet and stacking boxes. I never saw this coming.
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
I know enough of the ministry of word and sacraments to know I am not called to it. I know enough about vocation to think there is a lot of truth in the line
If you can do something else then do it.
That does not mean if you have the ability to do something else. Most ordained people do. It means that at some point the vocation becomes inevitable.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
Like to provide anything like a justification for this?
Nope. It is a perspective. I would need to discuss a whole lot of things that I am not prepared to share here, so I cannot justify it. But it is still my view on it.
And yes, there are some - many - who seem to think that they are Gods gift to everyone else.
--------------------
Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
|
Posted
Asking the question in the way it's phrased should make you think very seriously about your motivation for exploring ordination.
Posts: 476 | Registered: Aug 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
|
Posted
Oh, and to attempt to answer your question Evensong, most of the 'best' (for want of a better word) priests I've known have confessed to some thoughts along the lines of, 'Did they get it right when they ordained me?'
This is how I think God wants me to serve him and his people. However, as it's a big commitment, to put it mildly, I think it would be strange to never wonder if that was actually right.
I'm really pleased when priests thirty years ordained tell me they wonder too. I think it prevents people thinking they're infallible or they are specially able to hear God and interpret what he says. I suppose that's what you'd have to believe in order to be utterly certain. Those people scare me a bit and I wouldn't want one as my parish priest. There's no humility in certainty. And no willingness to submit to God working through others and the 'process'. I think that could be dangerous.
[ 01. August 2013, 21:09: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
|
Posted
Over the past thirty years I can think of half a dozen people I've met who have been very willing to share their belief that God called them to ordained ministry. Three of those I knew as priests, and none of them were good ones; the other three weren't selected, fortunately, as they just didn't have the personal skills.
If you think "the call" is the most important reason for becoming a priest, you may be deluding yourself about your ability to hear God's voice. If you don't have the relevant talents you shouldn't do it; you'll do more harm than good, to yourself as well as to others. I believe that God likes unconventional choices now and again to disturb our complacency, but I don't believe his choices are totally irrational and random.
Incidentally, I've also known four outstanding priests who haven't remained in ordained ministry throughout their working lives (though two of those returned after a gap of a few years).
Maybe God's calling is more flexible and more complex than we give him credit for?
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
There are two books I firmly believe that any clergy (of any faith) or potential clergy should read:
--"I Heard The Owl Call My Name", by Margaret Craven. The story of a young, Anglican priest who's assigned to work with the Kwakiutl people of Canada. A quiet, thoughtful book.
--"Carpe Jugulum", by Terry Pratchett. Much of it is about what real faith is, and how clergy should practice it. (In addition to Pratchett's usual satire, puns, and wry observations! ![[Cool]](cool.gif) )
I'm going to add one more:
--"Traveling Mercies", by Anne Lamott. It's the down-in-the-trenches, nitty-gritty, true story of how Anne came to faith. Much of that was due to a very good pastor at a very good church. Also has Anne's usual wry observations and humor, such as saying she'd done something so bad that "it made Jesus want to drink gin straight out of the cat dish"!
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
Has the CofE always expected prospective clergy to have a 'call', or is that a fairly modern thing? My impression from English culture is that young men with a suitable temperament and education, appearing to be believers, and quite possibly from clerical families, would be deemed to be appropriate. A mystical call from God wasn't really necessarily.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has the CofE always expected prospective clergy to have a 'call', or is that a fairly modern thing? My impression from English culture is that young men with a suitable temperament and education, appearing to be believers, and quite possibly from clerical families, would be deemed to be appropriate. A mystical call from God wasn't really necessarily.
I'm not sure anything much beyond the right social connections was required for much of English history.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
seasick
...over the edge
# 48
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think it should be looked at like a job. Do you fit? Do you want to do the job with that company? If not, don't bother, if you do, go for an interview.
I don;t believe God calls people to Ordained Ministry at all. People like to claim this to justify their position as "special people". In the end, they are employees of an organisation, there to forward the aims of the organisation. Nothing special, nothing "divinely ordained". Far too often, arrogantly claiming to be special.
I love the way people (SC is not the first I've heard make this argument) seem to think I took a significant cut in pay and prospects to do a job that is pretty much a conversation stopper anywhere outside the church in order to allow myself to claim to be special. It's a marvellous logic.
--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Most of the clergy I've known reasonably well in person (5 clergy, 4 male, 1 female, 2 denoms, 5 churches) have had enormous egos (I reckon that's got to be a job requirement, given what they have to deal with) and all but the female were incredibly sexist (though not necessarily in the stereotypical fashion)and also incredibly controlling. Lots of surface charm and poise, and a sense that somewhere underneath lurked someone muttering, "What the hell have I got myself into, and more to the point, why?"
In both denoms, though, congregation-pleasing is a fat part of getting & keeping a call. Might be different in the CofE. From the outside looking in (though I did serve on one discernment committee), it had all the earmarks of a mug's game, with nary a look-in from that Guy in the Sky.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Clergy and laity alike have to discern their career. I definitely agree with SCK that God calls different people to different careers. This is no less true with clergy than laity. Some should be in parish ministry, some university chaplains, some academics, some writers of popular spirituality books, some caregivers to the elderly, some in media work, etc. etc. Do you need moral surety to enter a particular career field? Not at all. You need to have done some discernment work and be humble enough to carry that on as your sense of call is tested in that job.
Call to ordained ministry is not a call to a job. The analogy that works much better is with marriage. My conviction that God is calling me to the priesthood has that kind of gut level reliability to it that isn't really articulable as a rational argument. It's a conviction that resonates with what I pick up on when I ask engaged or married friends how they know their fiance(e) or spouse is 'the one.' You just know. In some ways, it's a conviction like this that defines what knowing is for you. Your desire is ardent as your zeal for life, precisely because this is how God gives you life.
I'd add that there's no need to have this kind of conviction to enter seminary. In fact, I'd be a little wary of anyone who claims it.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
It means that at some point the vocation becomes inevitable.
Yes, that's it exactly. A one-sentence version of my rambly post. I'd add that some people don't get that sense of inevitability until they give in to those nagging "maybe" thoughts and enter the seminary. A few have to leave and come back before it finally clicks.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Has the CofE always expected prospective clergy to have a 'call', or is that a fairly modern thing? My impression from English culture is that young men with a suitable temperament and education, appearing to be believers, and quite possibly from clerical families, would be deemed to be appropriate. A mystical call from God wasn't really necessarily.
I'm not sure anything much beyond the right social connections was required for much of English history.
You say this as though it's a bad thing...
--------------------
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Posts: 307 | From: North London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
|
Posted
Porridge, that's interesting as my experience is very different.
I know lots of CofE clergy. Lots. I've only known a couple with a massive ego. And a couple who were sexist. There may have been some overlap...
[ 05. August 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gextvedde
Shipmate
# 11084
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I have heard it said that one should not be an ordained minister unless one is utterly convinced God has called you to this particular ministry.
I have also heard it said that some niggling doubt is healthy and a good thing.
What say The Ship?
I'd go very much with the niggling doubts. I've met a few people who were utterly convinced about God's plan and purpose for their lives and two things struck me about them.
1. Whilst they might have been convinced most people who met them would consider them very ill suited to what they were insisting they were called to do
2. They often expected that level of personal assurance for other people and gave, what looked to me like, very unwise advice on the basis of it.
Neither of these qualities bodes well for ministry.
--------------------
"We must learn to see that our temperament is a gift of God, a talent with which we must trade until he comes" Thomas Merton
Posts: 293 | From: The Twilight Zone, near the M25 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Masha:
Porridge, that's interesting as my experience is very different.
I know lots of CofE clergy. Lots. I've only known a couple with a massive ego. And a couple who were sexist. There may have been some overlap...
Well, that probably only goes to show that there may be large-scale differences among denoms. As I'm in the U.S., I know NO CofE clergy, and have had only passing acquaintance with one Episcopal clergyman (he's not among the 5 described above). And I have no idea what differences, if any, might exist between the CofE and U.S. Episcopalians. I keep thinking I'll visit the piskie church in my town of a Sunday morning, but so far have not drummed up the whatever-I-need to do it.
At my most recent former (probably last) church, I was dismayed by the extent to which there were obvious and immense divides between the beliefs of the pastor and the beliefs of the congregational leadership. (I joined that church very shortly after the congo called him.) Example: a politically & theologically liberal congo (as long as these principles did nothing to rock their own personal boats) choosing a senior pastor who firmly believes in the husband's headship (as clearly apparent from both words and actions to anyone with open eyes/ears, though he has never acknowledged this aloud).
Several years later, upon leaving the church, I saw a cult of personality centered around the senior pastor's charm and charisma, and all that kept him from marching the whole congo down a much more conservative path was his nervous dread that speaking openly about his own theological leanings might result in his having to find a new call.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ancilla
Shipmate
# 11037
|
Posted
I think you can have conviction and also doubt – conviction that God is calling you, but doubts about your abilities and worthiness. I’d say I have more than doubt: I know for a fact I’m not worthy of ordained ministry, and (in my human strength) not capable of meeting people’s expectations. Probably nobody is, although there are certainly people who will be better than me and (unfortunately) those who will be worse. Therefore the only justification for doing it is my conviction, backed up by the judgment of those who know me, that it is God’s will.
I would agree with Hart’s point, that the call to ordained ministry is more like the call to marriage – or in fact the call to baptism, for those like me who converted in adulthood. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t call us to specific jobs/ministries, but for me at least that feels like a different kind of calling and a different kind of discernment. For example, I’m praying at the moment that God will guide me to the right parish for my curacy; he may in the future guide me to take on a particular ministry such as prison chaplaincy. So I think Spiffy’s totally right in saying she is called to be a lay person, and I think we should recognise that as a calling in itself – rather than, as I have heard a member of the clergy say in all earnestness, looking for people’s ‘call’ to make the tea or to put out the bins.
--------------------
formerly Wannabe Heretic
Vocational musings
Posts: 424 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
|
Posted
Yep, Porridge, sounds very different to the contexts I know. Sounds pretty, er, interesting too!
I'd never really appreciated or thought about how the differences in 'appointment' systems would affect a church or its vocations process. But I suppose it must.
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
Most of the clergy I've known reasonably well in person (5 clergy, 4 male, 1 female, 2 denoms, 5 churches) have had enormous egos (I reckon that's got to be a job requirement, given what they have to deal with) and all but the female were incredibly sexist (though not necessarily in the stereotypical fashion)and also incredibly controlling.
I think you must have had some bad luck. Most of the clergy I've know have been if anything rather insecure and withdrawn when not actually "on duty" in front of a church. Also many of them are much more theologically liberal than the average church member. Probably less sexist thatn the average church member as well.
There are the occasional controlling types - I can think of two right now in churches I have a little contact with - but its a minority. And even then both of them seem to be nice blokes.
You probably never saw it where you live but here in England there was a TV comedy called Rev a couple of years ago that seemed to me to be just about the most accurate portrayal of clergy I've ever seen. Nothing like your description.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
You probably never saw it where you live but here in England there was a TV comedy called Rev a couple of years ago that seemed to me to be just about the most accurate portrayal of clergy I've ever seen. Nothing like your description.
Ah come on! Surely Father Ted wins the award for accurate portrayal of clergy?
--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
|
Posted
I don't think the parish clergy invented the "call from God" idea to boost their own egos. I think the Church invented it so that when the parish clergy realise they're in cruddy jobs living in a wreck of a house in a scary neighbourhood on very little money and with no managerial or pastoral support, we can all tilt our heads sympathetically, smile sweetly, and say But it's a call from God.
--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't think the parish clergy invented the "call from God" idea to boost their own egos. I think the Church invented it so that when the parish clergy realise they're in cruddy jobs living in a wreck of a house in a scary neighbourhood on very little money and with no managerial or pastoral support, we can all tilt our heads sympathetically, smile sweetly, and say But it's a call from God.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
I have known a lot of priests, and they have invariably been basically ordinary people with no more pretensions than anyone else.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
|
Posted
And Bishops the same. Take off the mitre / dog collar and they could be your next door neighbour. Sometimes they are, literally.
--------------------
Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Solly
Shipmate
# 11919
|
Posted
For many (some?) the ordained ministry is a career choice - 'uni' followed by 'vicar school' and graduation as a fully fledged 'vicar' with employment rights and a house. Even better - a second career or hobby post-retirement as a 'vicar' Not sure where or if vocation/calling from God comes into this lifestyle choice. Thank God priests are still alive and well in some parts of the Church of England.
Posts: 70 | From: Sussex UK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Solly:
For many (some?) the ordained ministry is a career choice - 'uni' followed by 'vicar school' and graduation as a fully fledged 'vicar' with employment rights and a house. Even better - a second career or hobby post-retirement as a 'vicar' Not sure where or if vocation/calling from God comes into this lifestyle choice. Thank God priests are still alive and well in some parts of the Church of England.
A vocation as a church leader/ vicar is certainly a lifestyle rather than just a job. An all consuming one.
--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
