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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: UKIP MEP embarrasses party (sort of)
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Stumbling Pilgrim
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# 7637
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Posted
Not quite sure whether this belongs here or in Hell, as I don't know whether it will provoke debate, argument or anything at all, but I'll try it here to start with - Hosts, apologies if it's the wrong place.
I was left speechless by this story this morning. Having got beyond my initial reaction of 'you mean there are people in the 21st century who still talk like this?' and read this report of his frankly fatuous response and that of his party, I was left with a number of questions:
Is telling him not to do it again an adequate response, especially as he seems to be a repeat offender? (scroll down to links at the bottom -with reference to the earlier incident, his party leader actually backed him up over that)
Am I right to try to be charitable and assume he's perhaps dealing with some personal issues (particular reference to the 'Nazi' and 'Vichy' incidents again) or is he just a racist?
Is this going to do any long-term damage to UKIP, or as he suggested 'double his vote'?
[ 07. August 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]
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Stumbling in the Master's footsteps as best I can.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Racist comments from a UKIP MEP? Who'd've thought it?
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
In other news, large ursine creature emerges from sylvan setting to warn "I'd give it at least a couple of hours if I were you".
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Higgs Bosun
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# 16582
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Posted
He was on the Today Programme on Radio 4 just before 8AM. Unfortunately, he got off lightly.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
OK, so the horror and indignation is about the unfortunate language he used, rather than about the points he raised concerning the use of foreign aid?
Yes, he was wrong to refer to "Bongo Bongo Land", but I find it rather disturbing that, in some quarters, it seems to be more of a priority to wrangle about people's language and turns of phrase, than about actually addressing their real concerns. It's as if presentation of ideas is now more important than the ideas themselves.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
When the presentation betrays the source of those ideas to be racism and other forms of hatred then the presentation is important.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
Yes, the presentation may be important. OK. So we agree it's wrong.
Now can we talk about the ideas. If not, then I assume that the obsession with presentation is merely a politically convenient smokescreen to hide the fact that he may actually have a point about the widespread abuse and often counterproductive effects of foreign aid.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
OK, so the horror and indignation is about the unfortunate language he used, rather than about the points he raised concerning the use of foreign aid?
Yes, he was wrong to refer to "Bongo Bongo Land", but I find it rather disturbing that, in some quarters, it seems to be more of a priority to wrangle about people's language and turns of phrase, than about actually addressing their real concerns. It's as if presentation of ideas is now more important than the ideas themselves.
In this case, surely the two are linked? If one wants to deny any responsibility to love one's brothers and sisters, it helps to reduce them to a comical caricature. It reminds me of something I read in a thriller - The Silence of the Lambs I think - about serial-killers needing to depersonalise their victims, and think of them as dolls.
It is easier to say "Do let's stop sending aid to Bongo Bongo Land" than "Do let's stop sending aid to Somalia" and much much easier to talk about not sending aid than to say "Let's not give Anwar any food today."
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Yes, the presentation may be important. OK. So we agree it's wrong.
Now can we talk about the ideas. If not, then I assume that the obsession with presentation is merely a politically convenient smokescreen to hide the fact that he may actually have a point about the widespread abuse and often counterproductive effects of foreign aid.
Aid is a foreign policy tool and tends to be focused on countries where Britain has economic and security interests.
"Bongo bongo land" has oil, minerals, diamonds, coffee, tea, fruits and vegetables, and lots of other natural resources that Britain demands and relies on. UKIP is purportedly pro-business and frankly the business community has few to no complaints about British aid providing stability in countries where they operate.
So this is nothing but racist banter aimed at the moronic frothing masses who blame dark-skinned people for their own personal failures.
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Would be grateful if someone could explain how exactly these words are racist?
When I have heard people use this, its always as a shorthand for 'a generic foreign country of which we know very little'. How is that racist? Perhaps people are picking up on the word bongo as African? But the MEP appears also to refer to Pakistan. I could also imagine people using it to refer to Moldova or Belarus or some other East European country of which we know little (indeed people ofen do use a generic name for such countries, as in 'Ruritania').
I can see it maybe carries an undertone that the country is undeveloped or backward. Not sure that is racist either though? It is an opinion. Some people also say that the southern US is backward, not sure they're racist against Southeners.
Genuinely do not understand this one.
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Urban Dictionary defines the term as a humorous description of a third world country, usually in Africa. Famously it was used by Alan Clark to refer to sub-Saharan Africa (in the 1980s, I think).
TBH it's a lazy rant kind of term, of a piece with what the rest of the man has to say. He makes generalised accusations of profligacy, but doesn't have specific evidence to offer, and treats one or two extraordinary stories as if they characterise the whole picture of international aid.
It's not as if real information is hard to find it's just that he's not interested in real information - the generalised slur suits his purpose well enough.
[ 07. August 2013, 13:27: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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Matt Black
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# 2210
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Posted
The only - very vaguely if at all - meaningful point he made was about sending F18s to Pakistan when we can't afford them ourselves (if that remark is at all accurate), which is a bit morally different to helping to provide food and shelter.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk
In this case, surely the two are linked? If one wants to deny any responsibility to love one's brothers and sisters, it helps to reduce them to a comical caricature. It reminds me of something I read in a thriller - The Silence of the Lambs I think - about serial-killers needing to depersonalise their victims, and think of them as dolls.
It is easier to say "Do let's stop sending aid to Bongo Bongo Land" than "Do let's stop sending aid to Somalia" and much much easier to talk about not sending aid than to say "Let's not give Anwar any food today."
You seem to give the impression that to question the wisdom of foreign aid is to be racist. Here is a quote from a Zambian economist:
quote:
The notion that aid can alleviate systemic poverty, and has done so, is a myth. Millions in Africa are poorer today because of aid; misery and poverty have not ended but have increased.
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With aid’s help, corruption fosters corruption, nations quickly descend into a vicious cycle of aid. Foreign aid props up corrupt governments—providing them with freely usable cash. These corrupt governments interfere with the rule of law, the establishment of transparent civil institutions and the protection of civil liberties, making both domestic and foreign investment in poor countries unattractive. Greater opacity and fewer investments reduce economic growth, which leads to fewer job opportunities and increasing poverty levels. In response to growing poverty, donors give more aid, which continues the downward spiral of poverty.
This is the vicious circle of aid. The cycle that chokes off desperately needed investment, instils a culture of dependency, and facilitates rampant and systematic corruption, all with deleterious consequences for growth. The cycle that, in fact, perpetuates underdevelopment, and guarantees economic failure in the poorest aid-dependent countries.
(Dambisa Moyo, Dead Aid, Penguin: 2010, p. xix, p.49)
As she makes clear in her book, Moyo is talking about governmental bilateral and multilateral aid, not the charitable work of individual organisations, who can monitor the effectiveness of their operations on the ground (and also not the occasional emergency humanitarian aid in crisis situations). So the criticism that someone like Dambisa Moyo "sees nothing wrong with denying $10 in aid to an African child for an anti-malaria bed net" (Jeffrey Sachs, American economist and Director of the Earth Institute at Columbia University) is manifestly wrong, because no one would deny the African child his anti-malaria bed net, if we could be sure that the donated $10 actually goes to providing same (and hopefully the anti-malaria bed net is purchased from an African supplier, whose business has been allowed to flourish in an economically stable environment, and has not been undermined by the imposition of foreign goods).
Moyo's point about dependency is interesting. Those who think that the imposition of large scale bilateral and multilateral aid is the answer to poverty in, say, Africa, have an extremely low and cartoonish view of Africans. In fact, that view is about as racist as it gets. This view states that Africans have no entrepreneurial abilities (which is laughably false), have little intelligence and therefore we need to act towards them in an entirely paternalistic (i.e. neo-colonial) way. Aid requires the African to be a perpetual child, utterly dependent on his economic parents (the West).
For all the indignant rhetoric of the left, we know who the real 'racists' are. And it's not those who wish Africans to have the opportunity to stand on their own two feet, even if some of these critics of foreign governmental aid do occasionally indulge in foolish and injudicious language.
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858
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Posted
It's possible we're on the same side here, EE. I think we should continuously challenge the methods we use to seek to alleviate poverty. I do also think we should give compassionately and generously.
But all of this is miles away from the subject of Mr Bloom's lazy use of a sneery comic caricature that suggests the world can easily be divided into countries/people like us and Bongo Bongo Land.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
EE; it doesn't follow that lefties are racists and have a low view of Africans, even if Moyo's analysis which you quote is correct. It may simply be that we're wrong about the best way to address global poverty.
I do wish you could debate without assuming the worst about those with whom you disagree. It looks from here as if you largely agree with Moyo's analysis because it gives you another chance to sneer at the stupid wicked hateful lefties you clearly despise so much.
[ 07. August 2013, 14:18: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
For all the indignant rhetoric of the left, we know who the real 'racists' are. And it's not those who wish Africans to have the opportunity to stand on their own two feet, even if some of these critics of foreign governmental aid do occasionally indulge in foolish and injudicious language.
The real racists are the ones who refer to any poor country with dark-skinned people as "bongo bongo land."
Dambisa Moyo I'm sure is just as disgusted with this UKIP fool's comment as the rest of us whose roots are in various "bongo bongos" ourselves. He is not making an economics-based point on foreign aid, he is saying that those people don't deserve our help. Besides the fact that he's wrong - most aid does not go to Ray-Bans and Paris flats. There's not a single piece of evidence to suggest most or even a large portion of foreign aid is spent in such a manner.
You actually insult Moyo by dragging her name into this discussion. Just because she is black does not mean she would support a racist old fool simply because he said "aid" and "bad" in the same sentence.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
My understanding is that he was referring to Somalia and that it is racist because he is conflating all African peoples into bongo players.
"Bongo bongo land" has a long history as a shorthand for a set of sub-Saharan African countries. It doesn't have anything to do with playing bongos - it's a stereotype of the sound of words/names in various African languages, rather like using "ching chong" to describe the sound of Chinese.
Obviously, it's racist, just like "Captain Sum Ting Wong" was racist. It's racism by carelessness and ignorance (cf. "they all look the same to me") rather than an actual prejudice against Africans, but it's still racist.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
I do wish you could debate without assuming the worst about those with whom you disagree. It looks from here as if you largely agree with Moyo's analysis because it gives you another chance to sneer at the stupid wicked hateful lefties you clearly despise so much.
I will happily apologise for this if it really is true that I am accusing all 'lefties' in this way. I was actually being rather more specific about those who hold the view that the simple redistribution of wealth overseas is the answer to the alleviation of poverty. That is disparaging towards those who are forced into a form of economic slavery, namely, the dependency culture. I make no apologies for that point, because it is supported by logic, evidence and, indeed, my own experience of dealing with various African countries.
However, I do think that there is a double standard here. You are indignant at my supposed attitude, but I notice that anyone who dares to support UKIP (not me, by the way) is often accused of being racist or xenophobic. Even daring to want a debate about immigration will elicit from some on the left the accusation of xenophobia! So perhaps you could do well to preach your message to those of your own persuasion.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister
You actually insult Moyo by dragging her name into this discussion. Just because she is black does not mean she would support a racist old fool simply because he said "aid" and "bad" in the same sentence.
What an ignorant thing to say. How am I insulting her? Nowhere have I said or even insinuated that she would support the comment from the UKIP MEP!! I have made it clear that I do not support that comment either. And how dare you tell me that I am not allowed to refer to a key book on foreign aid in a discussion about this subject.
The reason I quoted Moyo concerned her point about aid encouraging the dependency culture, which is a form of racism. Don't you think that another point of view should be expressed in order to give some kind of balance to the discussion?
Or are you just trying to censor me?
Far from insulting Moyo, I am actually honouring her by giving exposure to her views. I think she would have the grace and maturity to thank me, and she certainly doesn't need others to protect her, thereby patronising her.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Would be grateful if someone could explain how exactly these words are racist?
When I have heard people use this, its always as a shorthand for 'a generic foreign country of which we know very little'. How is that racist? Perhaps people are picking up on the word bongo as African? But the MEP appears also to refer to Pakistan. I could also imagine people using it to refer to Moldova or Belarus or some other East European country of which we know little (indeed people ofen do use a generic name for such countries, as in 'Ruritania').
So using disparaging language against people with white skin, like Eastern Europeans, can't be racist?
Any language which implies 'I can't be bothered to think of these people as real individuals/nations/cultures: they're just "those others" that we can ignore', is racist.
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
My understanding is that he was referring to Somalia and that it is racist because he is conflating all African peoples into bongo players.
"Bongo bongo land" has a long history as a shorthand for a set of sub-Saharan African countries. It doesn't have anything to do with playing bongos - it's a stereotype of the sound of words/names in various African languages, rather like using "ching chong" to describe the sound of Chinese.
Obviously, it's racist, just like "Captain Sum Ting Wong" was racist. It's racism by carelessness and ignorance (cf. "they all look the same to me") rather than an actual prejudice against Africans, but it's still racist.
I wasn't saying it had a thing to do with playing the bongos. Similarly South Africa is not Kenya is not Mali, etc. That was my point--that the speaker used the phrase to emphasize that he didn't care. It was all some bongo-place. He may have not been literally saying they all play the bongos, but I think the racist connection between Africans and music was not a coincidence.
I have heard a guy say a particular town was "rather hip-hop" when they (falsely) meant it was a majority African-American. I lived and worked in that town, and while I have not done a study, I highly doubt the people of that town listen to more hip-hop than people of other towns. That wasn't what the speaker meant. The speaker I heard, and the MEP were insulting their targets by reducing them to something that didn't interest the the speaker (hip-hop, bongos etc.) while referencing an old racist stereotype.
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
If his point was that foreign aid doesn't do what it's supposed to, then that's what he should have said. If his point was that it doesn't help the African people in the longterm because X, Y, and Z happens, that's what he should have said. But saying "Bongo Bongo Land" indicates that he actually doesn't give a shit who's getting the money or why - he cares that they're foreigners and he thinks that Brits are more important. Using the term "Bongo Bongo Land" is the ultimate kind of othering, and othering is what's important here. If you refer to Somalia, or Rwanda, or Malawi, then someone listening has a friend, or relative, or neighbour from one of those places, or has heard stories, or has seen something on TV, and suddenly there's a human connection there and the whole country can't be written off so easily. But of course a country that doesn't exist (and is interchangeable with all African countries because they're all basically the same aren't they ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ) doesn't do that - of course they don't deserve any money when their defining characteristic is just not being British.
A more mature way of tackling this debate is to say "This specific amount of aid was invested in this specific region, to achieve this aim. Here's how it was successful and how it was unsuccessful. If we had put that money into this specific British need instead, we could have achieved this specific result, which I think is more important." But that doesn't work with kneejerk xenophobia. So no, it's not possible to divorce the language from the point he was making.
I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the term "charity begins at home" who didn't think that it should also end there.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What an ignorant thing to say. How am I insulting her? Nowhere have I said or even insinuated that she would support the comment from the UKIP MEP!! I have made it clear that I do not support that comment either. And how dare you tell me that I am not allowed to refer to a key book on foreign aid in a discussion about this subject.
The reason I quoted Moyo concerned her point about aid encouraging the dependency culture, which is a form of racism. Don't you think that another point of view should be expressed in order to give some kind of balance to the discussion?
Or are you just trying to censor me?
Far from insulting Moyo, I am actually honouring her by giving exposure to her views. I think she would have the grace and maturity to thank me, and she certainly doesn't need others to protect her, thereby patronising her.
She has nothing to do with this MEP. There are many intelligent Africans who see problems with aid, none of whom resort to racist or offensive language to do so.
No one here is even remotely suggesting that saying foreign aid is bad for Britain is a racist position in and of itself.
You came into this thread asserting that it is secretly racist liberals who A) are overreacting to the racism and B) are just so sensitive that they can't see through the racism to the very important point about aid.
Your only reason for including Ms Moyo at all is to "prove" that it's not racist to be against aid, because a real-life black African also thinks aid is a bit stupid. Right? Why didn't you mention a white academic to make your point?
The problem of course is that no one ever suggested such a thing in the first place! So...who is the "real racist" exactly?
[ 07. August 2013, 15:25: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Angloid: not sure it is. He is effectively calling recipients of aid, whether they be Eastern European, African or Asian, 'people from far-away places of whom I know very little and care even less'. Is that racist? No.
In that, if you want to play that game (and I'm not suggesting he would), East Europeans are generally judged to be the same 'race' as indigenous British people, and, from his platform, I suspect he would oppose aid to them too (well he certainly opposes immigration). Just as during the 1990s, right-wing politicians opposed EU aid to Spain, again the same 'race'. Racism is really the wrong word.
Is he being nationalistic or xenophobic to oppose giving aid to other countries, and to show his disdain and lack of interest in those countries by lumping them together? Possibly, but so what? Its a fairly common opinion, and not likely to lose UKIP many votes (as his fairly minor dressing down by the party indicates). The liberal left will get worked up but I dare say he can live with that..
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Angloid: not sure it is. He is effectively calling recipients of aid, whether they be Eastern European, African or Asian, 'people from far-away places of whom I know very little and care even less'. Is that racist? No.
In that, if you want to play that game (and I'm not suggesting he would), East Europeans are generally judged to be the same 'race' as indigenous British people, and, from his platform, I suspect he would oppose aid to them too (well he certainly opposes immigration). Just as during the 1990s, right-wing politicians opposed EU aid to Spain, again the same 'race'. Racism is really the wrong word.
Is he being nationalistic or xenophobic to oppose giving aid to other countries, and to show his disdain and lack of interest in those countries by lumping them together? Possibly, but so what? Its a fairly common opinion, and not likely to lose UKIP many votes (as his fairly minor dressing down by the party indicates). The liberal left will get worked up but I dare say he can live with that..
DFID spent 1% of its budget on Europe, the Americas, and the Middle East combined in 2011/12 ,versus 45% in Africa and 28% in Asia.
He is not talking about Eastern Europeans.
It's on page 29 of the report.
DFID budget
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Urban Dictionary defines the term as a humorous description of a third world country, usually in Africa. Famously it was used by Alan Clark to refer to sub-Saharan Africa (in the 1980s, I think).
One African who wasn't offended by Clark's use of the term was President Bongo of Gabon, who sent Clark a poster of himself, which I think was put up on Clark's office wall.
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Angloid: not sure it is. He is effectively calling recipients of aid, whether they be Eastern European, African or Asian, 'people from far-away places of whom I know very little and care even less'. Is that racist? No.
It might not be 'racist' by a strict definition (except that it is arguably racist to suggest that people can be divided into different 'races' in any case). It shares the same error as racism by using blanket stereotyping to dismiss the real needs and concerns of whole groups of people.
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Seekingsister: I am aware of that (I do not think DFID in general donate aid to EU members, it being through the EU's own development budget). I am trying to explain Mr Bloom's mindset (as I see it: none of us can know for sure what he meant) and linking it to his wider policies e.g. on European immigration.
He has used the term as it is generally used, as a catch-all phrase for countries which are far-away and 'none of our business'. He is not expressing dislike for Africans or Asians or anyone: he is expressing lack of interest or concern in people outside Britain or Britain's zone of affairs. Which is not a racist opinion.
[ 07. August 2013, 17:00: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
But of course a country that doesn't exist (and is interchangeable with all African countries because they're all basically the same aren't they ) doesn't do that - of course they don't deserve any money when their defining characteristic is just not being British.
I think that's going a little far - there are plenty of discussions that we have when we talk about fairly generic sets of behaviour that are typical in "Western Europe", "Eastern Europe", "Former Soviet Union", "sub-Saharan Africa", "South America" and so on. Making such generalizations doesn't imply that there are no differences - only that there are useful generalizations that can be made. If we had to go country-by-country and culture-by-culture every time we said anything, we'd be here all day...
It is easy to go to far, and assume that the general picture applies to every individual person / culture / country / whatever, but that doesn't make all generalization bad.
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Angloid: It is fortunate then that Mr Bloom did not attempt to categorise people into races! He criticised aid to people from several different continents I believe. Therefore not a racist.
Again, to take an extreme example, if he had said "I do not care if 1000 children from around the world die as long as every British person gets a golden toilet seat", he would not have made a racist statement, but a nationalist one.
The reason people like to call him 'racist' is because it is a strong witchhunt word, whereas to be called 'xenophobic' or 'nationalist' does not have the same connotations.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
The reason people like to call him 'racist' is because it is a strong witchhunt word, whereas to be called 'xenophobic' or 'nationalist' does not have the same connotations.
Or because we think it's racist.
I am entitled to think someone is being racist against me and it is not an attempt to "witchhunt" but a genuine response from disgust and offense. For you to read such into the negative reaction to Mr Bloom says much about you.
Can a minority have a negative response to dog-whistle politics like UKIP's without you thinking it's some ulterior motive and tactic?
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ken
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
The reason people like to call him 'racist' is because it is a strong witchhunt word, whereas to be called 'xenophobic' or 'nationalist' does not have the same connotations.
So you agree that UKIP is a xenophobe party?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
You're allowed to think whatever you like about whoever you like. However this is Purgatory and if you make quite extreme accusations against someone, I'm allowed to question those allegations.
As I said previously, I did not come here with a preconception. I was open minded about whether he had been racist or not.
But so far it seems to be is a mislabelling of nationalism (which, for what its worth, I don't think is a particularly good thing) for racism (which is worse). He has criticised giving aid to non-British people. That's not racist, because even if race is a viable concept (and I'm not sure it is), noone would say 'British' is a race.
And by the way, really appreciated the 'says much about you', classic passive-aggressive stuff, classic.
[ 07. August 2013, 17:22: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
Angloid: It is fortunate then that Mr Bloom did not attempt to categorise people into races! He criticised aid to people from several different continents I believe. Therefore not a racist.
I notice you didn't challenge the substantive statement in my post. It's pointless to quibble about the definition of the word racist while ignoring the fact that Bloom dismissed, contemptuously, whole groups of people in the same way that racists do.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
Last week I was impressed by Nigel Farage opposing the Tory use of advertising vans and stop checks at tube stations as being unBritish.
What a pity this man has undone that. And then embarked on a fracking exploration by claiming “I think I’m standing up for ordinary people at the pub, the cricket club, the rugby club — the sort of people who remain completely unrepresented under the political system that we have,”. In other words some middle aged white men.
(His attitude to women has been exposed before, and while not as bad as Tertullian's, he certainly doesn't regard them as default state British.)
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Angloid - as I've repeatedly said, he is of course lumping all non-British people together, and ignoring them, of course. I agree. The difference is one of 'which is your idol' (nation or race) rather than way of thinking about those which are not of your group.
I am probably being a bit lawyer-y here (and for the record I do not agree with his opinions re aid). I just think, if one dislikes (rather virulent) nationalism, one should say so. What I dislike is using the word racist, which is of course a curse word, whereas if you called Mr Blooom a nationalist or xenophobe, he would say 'Yup..whats your point', which might lead to an actual discussion. I think its generally accepted that (at least a part) of the growth of the current anti-immigrant climate is people's resentment at being labelled racist every time they voice a right-wing opinion.
Ken: I don't want to throw around opinions unneccessarily - I know very little about UKIP.
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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Or because we think it's racist.
I don't think "racist" is an accurate description of Godfrey Bloom (who seems to do a splendid job as a UKIP caricature - are we sure he's not Harry Enfield in disguise?).
"Bongo-Bongo Land" is racist, just like "ching chong," although contra Gwai, I don't think it has anything to do with music - I don't think musical Africans is a particularly strong stereotype.
But Bloom himself seems to be more or less an equal-opportunity xenophobe. He doesn't care about the racial background of the foreigners - he cares that they're "not like us" in terms of culture and attitudes.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S
What a pity this man has undone that. And then embarked on a fracking exploration by claiming “I think I’m standing up for ordinary people at the pub, the cricket club, the rugby club — the sort of people who remain completely unrepresented under the political system that we have,”. In other words some middle aged white men.
Ah yes, of course.
If you are..
1. white
2. male
3. middle aged
Then you are fair game to be stereotyped and victimised.
Funny, but I thought that that practice was known as:
1. racism
2. sexism
3. ageism
Perhaps you would like to explain yourself? Why are you promoting racism, sexism and ageism through your comment about "middle aged white men"? Have you not yet learnt that this kind of stereotyping is wrong? If not, then clearly the education system in this country has failed...
(Of course, every contributor to this UKIP video is a middle aged white male, innit? Oh dear, obviously I need to go to Specsavers... ![[Frown]](frown.gif) )
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I was commenting on Bloom's own choice of people he claimed to be representing. If he had stopped at the pub, then I would not have commented, but he added the cricket club and the rugby club.
He has previously commented about women who fail to clean behind the fridge, and that sensible employers would not employ women because of their getting pregnant, so it is reasonable to assume that he does not feel he is representing women.
I have observed cricket clubs in a South London park. It is apparent that there are very few mixed race teams, and that teams tend to play other teams of the same grouping. I have the impression, which you may argue with, that Bloom's more rural experience of cricket clubs is likely to be even more unmixed, and when he speaks of the people he represents there, he is not being inclusive.
I admit I have no evidence about rugby clubs, and I expect league may be different from union, so my idea that they are likely to be of people who resemble Mr Bloom may be erroneous.
Mr Bloom gives the impression that he represents, and intends to represent, people like him. Maybe that is what I should have said. But I am not sexist, racist or ageist (and I was being generous in saying middle-aged, I think) - I admit to being Bloomist.
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rolyn
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# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
I think its generally accepted that (at least a part) of the growth of the current anti-immigrant climate is people's resentment at being labelled racist every time they voice a right-wing opinion.
I agree with that . And because of this there is real danger that many will enter polling booths at the next election, vote UKIP and think to themselves, 'I really don't care if people call me racist'.
It's not the preaching to 'frothing masses' using of the odd outdated colonial phrase that will swing the fortunes of UKIP . No, it's down to whether the characteristic of rebellion is awakened in sufficient numbers of those who feel ,(however irrational), a sense of powerlessness .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
Spot the young Black/Asian woman among this list of UKIP MEPs.
Wow! One of the (eleven) white men on the list is only 32!
Penny S: On the subject of single-race cricket clubs you're quite right. Many of these date back to the nineteen fifties and 'sixties, when Asians and West Indians arrived in Britain, wanted to play cricket and couldn't join the clubs that existed. Some hockey clubs have similar origins.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Spot the young Black/Asian woman among this list of UKIP MEPs.
To be fair, you could ask the same question about these people or these.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Spot the young Black/Asian woman among this list of UKIP MEPs.
Wow! One of the (eleven) white men on the list is only 32!
Penny S: On the subject of single-race cricket clubs you're quite right. Many of these date back to the nineteen fifties and 'sixties, when Asians and West Indians arrived in Britain, wanted to play cricket and couldn't join the clubs that existed. Some hockey clubs have similar origins.
It took me a while to notice it. And I thought it was hugely daft not to have players from those traditions in existing teams - though I can see that if the purpose of the club is to play, it makes sense not to have people in who could move you down the batting order. Or if the purpose is to win, not to play their teams. (Is that a variety of "ist" as well?)
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Spot the young Black/Asian woman among this list of UKIP MEPs.
Wow! One of the (eleven) white men on the list is only 32!
I am absolutely shocked and disgusted by this vile list. Not one of their MEPs has red hair. This is just outrageous! Such overt prejudice against a deeply persecuted minority.
You know, comrades, we should send the fascist bastards to the Gulag! ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
You cannot know if any of them had it in the first place. Just jumping to conclusions based on the barest of evidence.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S
Just jumping to conclusions based on the barest of evidence.
Strange to say, but that seems to remind me of certain people... you know, those who seem to think that using a silly phrase like "Bongo Bongo Land" equates to racism.
But hey, I've got rather used to the double standards among the permanently indignant (and utterly humourless) PC community!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Also strange, but among the people I know, who are, almost without exception (the almost is in there to account for any unobserved variations), concerned with expressing themselves with care for any hurt which might be done to others (aka "correctly" - remember that actually has a positive meaning), there are vast tracts of time when they are not being indignant about anything, and are actually quite amusing. That they do show concern when other people do not exhibit the care that they feel is simple good manners does not mark them out - does it - as people whose opinions should be written off as worthy of ignoring because they are PC.
It is not a defence of the sort of careless expression that can be offensive to imply that it is humour, and that the hearers cannot take a joke - if that is what you implied by using the word humourless - because really good jokes amuse most people, and do not exclude the targets of the words.
If what Bloom said is not racist, then it is still stupid, ignorant and rather silly. But it is also capable of being hurtful and would have been better avoided, and certainly not defended by making more "jokes".
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Spot the young Black/Asian woman among this list of UKIP MEPs.
Wow! One of the (eleven) white men on the list is only 32!
I am absolutely shocked and disgusted by this vile list. Not one of their MEPs has red hair. This is just outrageous! Such overt prejudice against a deeply persecuted minority.
To be fair if they were randomly selected from the UK there's only a 30% chance of no red headed chaps. (although we can't see the hair colour of any of the bald people, so there's a fair chance we do have our representative****)
Whereas if from the shires (to be rural) there's a 50% chance of no non-whites* ***.
So in either case it could be coincidence. You'd need someone wiser than me (and more samples).
But something is clearly up with the women there's effectively no chance (0.05%) of selecting a pure group of men (or indeed vice versa for women).
Although of course they aren't picked entirely by Ukip. And Ukip aren't the only party with the problem. And many other things (including FPTP) could contribute... but....
*if you include say Southern European as being recognisable, or assume include the others, it could be 9-15% in quite a few shires**. In others you really need to scrape the barrel to get the 50%.
But in any case the point is, it's odds you could put a flutter on***.
**bizarrely the county town ones and Leicester not the cities.
***not in Greater London.
[**** actually given the real prejudice against 'gingers' it's probably not surprising if they are more likely to have shaven heads]
[ 07. August 2013, 22:04: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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