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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Oprah, a handbag and racism claim
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
Just wondered if anyone else was perplexed by the reported incident involving Oprah Winfrey in the Swiss handbag shop.
Oprah is alleging racism. As reported in the British media, Oprah's position is that she was in a handbag shop somewhere in Switzerland when she was (repeatedly) refused when asking to view an expensive bag and instead shown less expensive bags on the grounds that she couldn't afford the expensive one (20K dollars was the price tag).
The shop is claiming it was all a misunderstanding.
It goes without saying that racism in all its ugly manifestations is abhorrent.
Obviously we cannot know all the details if the interaction between Oprah and the shop employee.
But I am inclined towards thinking maybe there was a misunderstanding.
Oprah is instantly recognisable as one of the world's richest celebrities. Why would the Swiss shop not want to sell her the most expensive bag in the place?
What language was the interaction conducted in? Could there be room for misunderstanding?
As a sophisticated European nation, is it credible that an obscene and basic form of racism would be on display in an upmarket retail establishment (or indeed any retail establishment)?
Before claiming racism, is it not incumbent on a celebrity with the power and influence of Oprah Winfrey to be absolutely sure that her claim is true? Surely the burden of proof is on her?
[ 10. August 2013, 21:46: Message edited by: would love to belong ]
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Oprah is not neccesarily going to be as immediately recognisable to a clerk in an upscale Swiss clothes store as she would be to their American counterparts.
Of course it's credible. Upscale is upscale, not sophisticated.
[ 10. August 2013, 21:59: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Somewhere I read that The Oprah Winfrey Show was never aired in Switzerland.
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Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Still, employees in such stores usually can judge a client by the clothes she wears. Even when dressing down, Oprah wears high-end clothing.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Sure I believe it. Especially when the owner of the shop explained that they didn't have 'facial recognition.' Which is to say, they were going on the prospective customer's nationality (American), colour (non-white), and dress size (larger than a 10).
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
(x-post) Yes, incidences of racism are incomprehensible if you begin with the assumption that they aren't, in fact, incidences of racism.
[ 10. August 2013, 22:13: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
Make that 'instances', I have a migraine.
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Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
It was clear in the first instance. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
'White's only' shops have apparently begun to appear recently in Switzerland. It's said to be linked to 'concerns' about immigrants.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
What a surprise, the launderers of Nazi gold are racist.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I have to say I think it was all a misunderstanding. I think if they were actually being racist they wouldn't have been trying to sell her any bag at all, which apparently they were. It's all a bit unfortunate though and I can see why she'd feel victimised.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I think not selling her a bag at all would be rather too blatant! Racism now is usually more subtle than that - although telling a complete stranger that they can't afford something in your shop, when you have no idea what they can and can't afford, is hardly subtle!
Assistants in up-market boutiques need some way of protecting expensive goods while still being totally respectful towards all prospective customers.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
They refused her a look at an item they determined she could not afford. What were their clues? Her colour is the most obvious. What other factor does anyone think might be more likely?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
In the interview, Winfrey says that except for not having on false eyelashes, she was decked out in "full Oprah Winfrey" gear, or something like that, including a Donna Karan skirt (I just checked -- you can have your own Donna Karan skirt for $700-$1300 or so). Clearly she didn't look like some poor schlub who couldn't afford expensive things, so yeah, it had to have been her color.
Where I live, even if you look like that poor schlub, assistants in high-end stores don't assume you can't afford their goods, because not all rich people go around wearing expensive clothes. I generally looked like crap when I was working as a personal assistant for a wealthy couple years ago, running their errands on hot days in my car with no A/C, wearing Target clothes and no make-up, but the folks at Van Cleef & Arpels on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills were very nice to me even before I dug a nice piece of jewelry out of my ratty purse and asked to have it cleaned.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
Oh the poor little rich girl was not instantly recognised and grovelled to and given everything that she wanted as the egotistical 'celebrity' culture requires.
To be honestly fair I wouldn't recognise her if she walked in front of me and to cry racism is just ridiculous since there is a plethora of other reasons that explain why the incident occurred including the bag in question already being earmarked for another customer (and factoring in any potential language barrier it's not beyond the realms of possibility).
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
No, Sergius-Melli. The woman went into a shop and asked to look at a bag. She was told that the bag was too expensive for her, and that it would not be removed from the shelf for her to examine. She didn't demand to be recognized. She asked to be shown a bag. It was the shopkeeper who suggested that if only they'd known it was a famous black billionaire they would have certainly shown her the bag. Oprah's point was the exact opposite of the one you made: that she should not have to be recognized as Oprah Winfrey in order to be shown the bag in question.
Edited to add: Are you acquainted with any people of colour? Are there any where you live? I see you're in Wales: I hear there are a few down in Cardiff, but when I was last in the Marches it was the whitest place I'd ever been. Does it get more integrated once you cross the border?
[ 11. August 2013, 05:45: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
Oh the poor little rich girl was not instantly recognised and grovelled to and given everything that she wanted as the egotistical 'celebrity' culture requires.
To be honestly fair I wouldn't recognise her if she walked in front of me and to cry racism is just ridiculous since there is a plethora of other reasons that explain why the incident occurred including the bag in question already being earmarked for another customer (and factoring in any potential language barrier it's not beyond the realms of possibility).
No version of the story, not by Winfrey nor by the store, suggests that the bag was earmarked for anyone.
This is the shop manager's own words.
quote:
"Mrs. Oprah said she just wanted to look at the bag, she didn't want it taken down, and because my sales assistant felt a little embarrassed about the price, she quickly said that she also had the model in other materials such as ostrich and suede, which weren't so expensive," explained Trudie Goetz, the manager of Trois Pommes.
What? a shop not wanting to sell its merchandise? Why ever is it in there then? A clerk "embarrassed" to sell what she was there to sell?
The sales clerk made a judgement that Winfrey could not afford it. On what, dear sir, did she base this on if not race?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think not selling her a bag at all would be rather too blatant! Racism now is usually more subtle than that - although telling a complete stranger that they can't afford something in your shop, when you have no idea what they can and can't afford, is hardly subtle!
It's also weird - you would expect shops to want to sell their goods, especially the over priced stuff!
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Here is comment on the rise of racism in Switzerland and it includes a reference to the Oprah incident too.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Here is comment on the rise of racism in Switzerland and it includes a reference to the Oprah incident too.
Wow. Thanks for posting that link, fletcher Christian.
Just: wow.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
In the interview, Winfrey says that except for not having on false eyelashes, she was decked out in "full Oprah Winfrey" gear, or something like that, including a Donna Karan skirt (I just checked -- you can have your own Donna Karan skirt for $700-$1300 or so). Clearly she didn't look like some poor schlub who couldn't afford expensive things, so yeah, it had to have been her color.
Where I live, even if you look like that poor schlub, assistants in high-end stores don't assume you can't afford their goods, because not all rich people go around wearing expensive clothes. I generally looked like crap when I was working as a personal assistant for a wealthy couple years ago, running their errands on hot days in my car with no A/C, wearing Target clothes and no make-up, but the folks at Van Cleef & Arpels on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills were very nice to me even before I dug a nice piece of jewelry out of my ratty purse and asked to have it cleaned.
I know some of the Rodeo Drive clerks swear by the shoes as the definitive indicator. I'm sure Oprah wasn't wearing cheap ones!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I can think of only two legitimate reasons for refusing to show a bit of merchandise to a prospective customer:
1. The item has a "hold" on it for some other customer (who presumably has put down a deposit to have it held).
If this is were the case, the clerk should inform the individual requesting to see the item, and be told when to return if the depositor doesn't complete the sale.
2. The clerk has grounds for suspecting that the "customer" is actually a thief who can somehow pull off a switch with a pirated mock-up of the item, or is incredibly agile and fast on her feet so as to make it out of the store with the handbag.
I know Switzerland has a low crime rate, but surely they have anti-theft technology available in their stores?
Sans technology, the clerk can simply set the handbag forth, but retain contact with it -- opening it for the customer, showing her its innards and other features, etc.
In my long-ago pre-antitheft-technology youth, I was a clerk at a high-end menswear store on 5th Avenue in NYC. We sometimes "held" items for customers; we were also trained to never let really expensive items out of sight or hands, where practicable.
Nah, I'm going with racism here.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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SeraphimSarov
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# 4335
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Posted
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
I suppose it depends if it's tacky.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
<tangent> I believe some of these luxury items have outrageous prices because they are meticulously created one at a time by workers who are treated better than the usual for the garment industry. The manufacturers may also offer lifetime cleaning and repair services. There's lots of overpriced junk for brand victims, of course, but that particular bag might really have cost thousands of $$$ to make. </tangent>.
<2nd tangent> It may seem ridiculous to spend that much time, money and effort creating a handbag, but people invest just as much when creating works of art -- paintings, music, choreography, novels -- that have no practical use at all. </2nd tangent>
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
Mebbe. I think the crime is that there are people both able and also willing to purchase such items. Nobody'd make 'em if nobody bought 'em.
Seriously: what could POSSIBLY make a handbag worth 20,000 in the currency of any developed nation?
A platinum, jewel-encrusted exterior with endangered-specie-skin innards trimmed with dodo feathers, dinosaur teeth, and fragments of Atlantean potsherds?
That the purchaser then could not carry anywhere in public for fear of theft, even if insured for 40,000 of whatever currency?
Puhleeze. I'd respect Oprah and her celebr-ilk more if, along with her Good Works, she'd shed the need to consume so ostentatiously. We all know she rolls in it. We don't need pocketbook reminders (not that we'd ever get close enough to see the %$#! thing) of her wealth.
Yecch.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
Mebbe. I think the crime is that there are people both able and also willing to purchase such items. Nobody'd make 'em if nobody bought 'em.
Seriously: what could POSSIBLY make a handbag worth 20,000 in the currency of any developed nation?
A platinum, jewel-encrusted exterior with endangered-specie-skin innards trimmed with dodo feathers, dinosaur teeth, and fragments of Atlantean potsherds?
That the purchaser then could not carry anywhere in public for fear of theft, even if insured for 40,000 of whatever currency?
Puhleeze. I'd respect Oprah and her celebr-ilk more if, along with her Good Works, she'd shed the need to consume so ostentatiously. We all know she rolls in it. We don't need pocketbook reminders (not that we'd ever get close enough to see the %$#! thing) of her wealth.
Yecch.
How much did your last handbag cost then, Porridge? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) Slap me down if it's none of my business ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
How much did your last handbag cost then, Porridge? Slap me down if it's none of my business
$2.99. I bought it at Goodwill. Why you ask I can't imagine. I am a nobody, making near-poverty wages at a thankless job under constant threat of being eliminated.
[ 11. August 2013, 18:27: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
How much did your last handbag cost then, Porridge? Slap me down if it's none of my business
$2.99. I bought it at Goodwill. Why you ask I can't imagine. I am a nobody, making near-poverty wages at a thankless job under constant threat of being eliminated.
You're right, I shouldn't have asked. Most handbags (including expensive ones and $2.99 ones) are made by nobodies making near-poverty wages under constant threat of being eliminated.
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
That there are even 20,000 k handbags is the real crime
Mebbe. I think the crime is that there are people both able and also willing to purchase such items. Nobody'd make 'em if nobody bought 'em.
Seriously: what could POSSIBLY make a handbag worth 20,000 in the currency of any developed nation?
In South Korea, ₩20,000 is about £12 or about US$18. A reasonable price for a handbag, I would've thought?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I would never buy a handbag for as little as £12 unless it was from a charity shop and a good make. A brand-new handbag costing £12 will be of poor quality and will not last. A handbag should be an investment IMO.
Edited to add that I personally probably wouldn't spend £20k on a handbag, but I certainly think that there are handbags worth that much. I would happily spend £2000 on a handbag if I liked it and it was well-made.
[ 11. August 2013, 19:00: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would happily spend £2000 on a handbag if I liked it and it was well-made.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would happily spend £2000 on a handbag if I liked it and it was well-made.
What's wrong with that? Many women spend £2000 on a wedding dress they'll wear only once - why shouldn't I spend £2000 on a handbag which I'll use every day?
Of course, it's very unlikely that I would ever have the means to spend £2000 on a handbag but many less useful things cost much more.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would happily spend £2000 on a handbag if I liked it and it was well-made.
What's wrong with that? Many women spend £2000 on a wedding dress they'll wear only once - why shouldn't I spend £2000 on a handbag which I'll use every day?
Of course, it's very unlikely that I would ever have the means to spend £2000 on a handbag but many less useful things cost much more.
Never said there was anything wrong with it. I just said
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I would happily spend £2000 on a handbag if I liked it and it was well-made.
What's wrong with that? Many women spend £2000 on a wedding dress they'll wear only once - why shouldn't I spend £2000 on a handbag which I'll use every day?
Of course, it's very unlikely that I would ever have the means to spend £2000 on a handbag but many less useful things cost much more.
Jade, at the risk of you coming back at me and accusing me of sexism ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) there is absolutely nothing wrong with you spending £2K on a bag ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Tangent: can anyone tell me if you can read posts as they appear without going into each individual thread??
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Would love to belong - no, you're not being sexist. I would only say something was a sexist point of view if it actually was.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
I'd like to know how much the bags cost which the assistant did show her.
If she was shown $4.99 bags because the $20,000 was assumed to be too pricey, yes, maybe that was a racist supposition that black folks aren't going to be rich. If she was shown $5,000 ones -I'm not so sure. Whatever prejudice is displayed by mistaking a black billionaire for a mere millionaire, I doubt it is simple racism.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'd like to know how much the bags cost which the assistant did show her.
If she was shown $4.99 bags because the $20,000 was assumed to be too pricey, yes, maybe that was a racist supposition that black folks aren't going to be rich. If she was shown $5,000 ones -I'm not so sure. Whatever prejudice is displayed by mistaking a black billionaire for a mere millionaire, I doubt it is simple racism.
Have you any idea what else it could be?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Have you any idea what else it could be?
No idea at all.
The mindset that assumes that one stupidly overpriced item might be affordable to a particular stranger, whereas an even more absurdly overpriced one wouldn't be, is a completely alien one to me. I couldn't begin to analyse it with any confidence at all.
"She's black, therefore she's probably poor", that is something I understand sufficiently well to condemn. But if the assistant was happy to show her items which presuppose that she is extremely rich, I can't claim any understanding of that whatsoever.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Eliab,
Many high-end shops will range from the mind-blowing outrageous to merely outrageous.
quote:
The broadcaster said in two U.S. interviews that a sales assistant had refused to show her the crocodile handbag, saying it was "too expensive" and steering her towards other, cheaper ones.
I'd wager the other bags shown were not £19,995, but in the 3 or 4 figure range.
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
The mindset that assumes that one stupidly overpriced item might be affordable to a particular stranger, whereas an even more absurdly overpriced one wouldn't be, is a completely alien one to me.
You are assessed whenever you enter a store. How on earth are you not aware?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It's not clear what language the discourse was had in and how Oprah approached the shopping expedition in this store. Did she greet the clerk politely as is common in Europe, and then ask about the bag, or did she do as an American might and disdain the staff and simply ask to see it before any other talking. This might be experienced as rude. I was told prior to my first European trip that people in particular countries were rude, dour and mean spirited. I found them excessively polite in most cases. Perhaps Oprah was experienced as rude; she has an excessively personal approach on TV, the likes of which is off-putting to some of the world's peoples. Further, Oprah might think she would be recognized and didn't like it that she was not. Much more information required to understand this.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Oh, for pity's sake. Switzerland teems with tourists at every season of the year. This wasn't some pokey hole-in-the-wall corner market-cum-filling-station in a rural hamlet at the end of a dirt track, inhabited by Heidi and her grandfather.
Sales staff at high end boutiques in major Swiss cities must surely be accustomed to dealing with tourists from Tokyo to Topeka, Beirut to Beijing, and Moscow to Madagascar with all the varieties of courtesy and rudeness people from such different societies can offer.
Salespeople are generally interested in making sales, not in taking offense at strangers' ignorance of local manners.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It's not clear what language the discourse was had in and how Oprah approached the shopping expedition in this store. Did she greet the clerk politely as is common in Europe, and then ask about the bag, or did she do as an American might and disdain the staff and simply ask to see it before any other talking.
I think that last sentence is supposed to end in a question mark, since it's pure speculation.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
This might be experienced as rude.
I think the word you're looking for is "uppity".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Here's Huffington Post's Aug. 9th article.
I think it's quite believable that what happened was racially based. But the article does mention another time that Oprah had a shopping incident. She wanted to shop at a chic Parisian store 15 min. after closing time. They said no, citing a private event. Oprah evidently wasn't happy. Maybe, in her world, that was a reasonable request. But, if they really had a private event scheduled, their refusal was reasonable, too.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Have you any idea what else it could be?
No idea at all.
The mindset that assumes that one stupidly overpriced item might be affordable to a particular stranger, whereas an even more absurdly overpriced one wouldn't be, is a completely alien one to me. I couldn't begin to analyse it with any confidence at all.
"She's black, therefore she's probably poor", that is something I understand sufficiently well to condemn. But if the assistant was happy to show her items which presuppose that she is extremely rich, I can't claim any understanding of that whatsoever.
good point, imho. I guess I'd have to agree that while racism is a very real possibility, the whole concept/ exchange is so far outside my range of experience it would be impossible for me to presuppose what was actually going on.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
Some years ago my mother asked to see some shoes she liked in a department store. The sales assistant pointed to another display of shoes that she said were "more affordable". My mother, who incidentally is a peachy cream colour just like the sales assistant, was very offended and went off to shop elsewhere. Maybe some sales assistants are just like that.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan:
Some years ago my mother asked to see some shoes she liked in a department store. The sales assistant pointed to another display of shoes that she said were "more affordable". My mother, who incidentally is a peachy cream colour just like the sales assistant, was very offended and went off to shop elsewhere. Maybe some sales assistants are just like that.
Your story actually supports Oprah's story. Some shops do a quick superficial glance over a customer and determine their ability to afford the product. If your mom was dressed casually she may not have looked like she could afford those shoes.
What it seems is the same thing happened to Oprah, however she was wearing a designer outfit at the time. Her shoes, watch, jewellery, etc. would likely have been of a similar standard. So the superficial determination of her ability to afford the purse was made on her skin color, it appears.
I've been followed around department stores as apparently my dark skin makes me suspicious. In one case 4 employees were following me from table to table without offering to help or assist in any way - just giving me dirty looks. I complained to management about that. So a woman like Oprah who has probably experienced the same thing many times as well is not going to be particularly naïve about what's going on. If she sensed it was racial, I trust her judgment. She is not the kind of person who uses her race as an excuse for anything so I see no reason to discount her version of the story in the slightest.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
The reality is, as usual, unless we know more, it's really hard to make a judgement. As is often the case on sexism/racism threads, posters fall into three categories:
1. "It must be racism, because I can't think of another explanation"
2. "It can't be racism, there must be another explanation"
3. "I'd want to know a lot more before I decide what I think"
For me, 3 is the only valid option. Just to re-quote the Huffington Post article:
quote:
"I'm very sorry about this incident," Goetz said. "And this can only happen because of a communication problem and a misunderstanding.
"The shop assistant apparently asked her (Oprah) if she would like to see the bag, but she apparently said `No, I just want to look'. And then she (Oprah) asked how much the bag costs and she (the employee) told her how much the bag was."
Goetz added that "I believe she rather said something like `we have some less expensive' – `we also have some less expensive bags' and not `it's too expensive for you.' "
That account is very different to the "Oprah asked to see the bag, and was told it was too expensive for her and that she should look at cheaper ones" narrative that is also presented.
I don't know which story is true - I'd want to know a lot more before I could make a judgement.
But it seems that despite the lack of information, we're very prone to choosing whichever account fits our preconceptions, whether it's Sergius-Melli's flat-out denial that it could have possibly been racism (of course it could have been), or lilBuddha's / Porridge's insistence that it must have been racism, because they can't think of another alternative (despite the language barrier and a misunderstanding of what was said by both women being a very viable alternative).
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
That's all very well, goperryrevs, but we aren't sitting in a court of law here, so we're probably never going to get 'all' the evidence and, even if we did, we will never know what that shop assistant actually thought, if she did think.
So, yes, it's possible that there was a linguistic misunderstanding (that's the version I heard when the story first broke) or some other kind of miscommunication, but the question is, 'Is this what discrimination looks like?' And the answer is, 'Yes'.
Maybe it wasn't about Oprah being black: maybe the assistant thought she didn't look cool enough or trendy enough to be carrying that bag. Maybe it was the combination of the two: it's OK carrying that bag if you're black, as long as you're young, slim, cool and trendy. And, yes, there is discrimination against white, middle-aged frumps as well, but that's not the point. The point is that this shop was caught doing something that looks like discrimination and they did it to a black woman, in a country that doesn't exactly have a great record in the racism stakes. The only way for them to emerge with any credit is to apologise: profusely and at length.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
Maybe it wasn't about Oprah being black: maybe the assistant thought she didn't look cool enough or trendy enough to be carrying that bag. Maybe it was the combination of the two: it's OK carrying that bag if you're black, as long as you're young, slim, cool and trendy. And, yes, there is discrimination against white, middle-aged frumps as well, but that's not the point. The point is that this shop was caught doing something that looks like discrimination and they did it to a black woman, in a country that doesn't exactly have a great record in the racism stakes. The only way for them to emerge with any credit is to apologise: profusely and at length.
Sure, or maybe the shop assistant had no problem with showing Oprah the bag in the first place, but just misunderstood, thinking that Oprah only wanted to look around, and not buy it (which is how Goetz's version of events seems to play out).
But that would make it become a "the customer is always right", with the apology being a business gesture, rather than an acknowledgement of wrongdoing.
You're right, we're not in a court of law, which means that we don't have to pass judgement either way. It's the dynamic that says that we have to come to a conclusion about what happened that I find interesting. I'm quite happy to sit on the fence. If more information were to come to light, that might sway me on one direction or the other.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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