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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Benedictine Values
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
When someone becomes a Benedictine monk or nun they commit themselves to stability, obedience, and conversion of life. The Rule of Benedict is very important to me, and I try to live out my Christian life in a Benedictine manner, as I know several other Shipmates do. Therefore I would be interested in any thoughts on how to interpret those key values in a non-monastic setting.
In particular I am puzzled as to how to apply obedience. In the original context it was obedience to the Abbot or Abbess, but that doesn't translate simply to my employer - and doesn't cover times of unemployment or self-employment. Our ultimate obedience is to God alone but, as we all know, it isn't always clear what God wants us to do. I can honestly say that I've wanted to do God's will for many years now, but that hasn't stopped me from stuffing up and misleading myself enormously at times. In the here and now, to whom should we be obedient, and to what extent?
[ 16. August 2013, 01:05: Message edited by: tclune ]
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Being of a Benedictine turn of mind, this is something I often tussle with, too. The problem is that in a monastic setting everybody's under the same vows, but in a secular setting you might be living according to "stability, obedience and conversion of life," while your boss is living to "wine, women and song". In a monastery, your Abbot may look at you and think "Brother"; in your job, your boss may look at you and think "Mug."
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... in a secular setting you might be living according to "stability, obedience and conversion of life," while your boss is living to "wine, women and song".
I work to achieve Benedictine balance between these two stances -- I always go to the same winebar.
More seriously ... via a search engine, I looked at how several colleges and universities espousing Benedictine values interpret the discipline of obedience, figuring they would have given some thought to the question in the OP, and they all pretty much go with the Prologue to Benedict's Rule: "Listen with the ear of your heart." A couple pointed out that "obedience" is from the Latin audire, to listen, with the prefix "ob-" intensifying the meaning -- listen thorougly.
[ 15. August 2013, 19:47: Message edited by: RuthW ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
To whom should we be obedient, and to what extent?
In a Quaker context, to the Area Meeting of which one is a member, with certain
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
A further manifestation of obedience to be challenged by those who know us better than we know ourselves. Benedict presumes that the abbot is up to this task (RB 64:14).
Secondly, it is our free choice (usually) as to whom we choose to give obedience. Benedict requires both the the novice and community to be absolutely sure that they are right for each other (58), and that the Abbot is right for the community (64:1).
Thirdly, obedience to a source of authority outside requires us to not prefer (distrust) our own will, since that proceeds from our wants, not our needs. Humilitas teaches us that our wants are frustratingly insatiable. (4:60-1, 5:12)
Fourthly, Michael Casey points out that the original sources of Benedict's teaching on obedience have the *common* life of the community in view (71:1-2).
Q.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
That doesn't sound like a very Protestant answer, daron, I'd rather trust the voice of God in scripture and prayer (being helped to discern that by a good spiritual director), than the 'leadership' of some cleric or, worse, some self-opiniated layperson. It's no part of a priest's role to 'lead' in the sense of giving directions; it's about pastoral care and gentle guidance. Just like a Benedictine abbot in fact.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I see it as obedience to the teaching and example of Christ translated into our culture, using the scriptures and listening to the prompting and guidance of the Holy Spirit. It takes time, meditative and contemplative prayer, trust and faith, and an ever greater knowledge of ourselves so that we learn to discern and we co-operate with God in our conversion of life, yielding completely to our Lord.
Other people help us in discernment and are used by God to do so, but they may lead us astray, and they may stand in the way of our progress.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I like the idea that obedience involves enhanced listening to God. A good spiritual director, or small group of peer mentors can offer that view from the outside to add into the personal discernment.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The leadership of your local church.
Which one? There are three Episcopal churches in town, but there's a Lutheran church a block away.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
daronmedway: The leadership of your local church.
Problem: my church doesn't have leadership.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
The thing is, Benedictine values are all about community life. The entire assumption behind them is that one is living in a community.
Now, there are ways of living as part of the extended Benedictine community as an Oblate or Companion, both of which generally follow a modified version of the Rule. I don't think, though, that it's a model that works unless one has ties to an actual Benedictine community (or one that, like the Community of the Resurrection, has Benedictine influences).
However, the equivalent of monastic obedience for laypeople and secular priests is indeed obedience to the local Bishop. For those in Holy Orders (in the Church of England), this amounts to their oath to perform 'true and canonical obedience ... in all things lawful and honest', which clearly isn't the same thing as blindly doing whatever the Bishop says! For laypeople, the nature of obedience is less clearly defined, but I should think that it's almost certainly broader than for priests and deacons, as laypeople take no vows of canonical obedience. As I see it, obedience for the laity might consist of working to live a Christian life within the structures of the church of which they are a member.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
As I see it, obedience for the laity might consist of working to live a Christian life within the structures of the church of which they are a member.
I'll admit that I have nothing better than this to offer, but isn't this what most churched Christians would suppose they ought to be doing in the first place? I mean, from this it doesn't sound as if the Benedictine discipline of obedience has any specific applicability to the lives of laypeople. "Try to live a Christian life" -- uh, yeah, I kind of was already going that.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
As I see it, obedience for the laity might consist of working to live a Christian life within the structures of the church of which they are a member.
I'll admit that I have nothing better than this to offer, but isn't this what most churched Christians would suppose they ought to be doing in the first place? I mean, from this it doesn't sound as if the Benedictine discipline of obedience has any specific applicability to the lives of laypeople. "Try to live a Christian life" -- uh, yeah, I kind of was already going that.
That was kind of my point. The Rule of St Benedict is a rule for Christians living in a community. It is a very good rule for that purpose. One of the reasons why it works so well is that it applies a common sense approach to living in a Christian community. Stripped of its essentially communal element, there isn't all that much left that isn't self-evidently a good thing for any Christian to be doing.
Pray regularly, but not so much that you neglect the duties of everyday life (ora et labora); study religious texts; practice hospitality; be honest in your secular business dealings. Those are all very good things, but nothing that ordinary Christians shouldn't already be doing.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
The Rule of St Benedict is a rule for Christians living in a community. It is a very good rule for that purpose. One of the reasons why it works so well is that it applies a common sense approach to living in a Christian community. Stripped of its essentially communal element, there isn't all that much left that isn't self-evidently a good thing for any Christian to be doing.
Pray regularly, but not so much that you neglect the duties of everyday life (ora et labora); study religious texts; practice hospitality; be honest in your secular business dealings. Those are all very good things, but nothing that ordinary Christians shouldn't already be doing.
Possibly not, but ISTM that the Rule preserves a way of doing all these things, a set of values if you like, which is of universal application. The Sermon on the Mount has always needed a User Guide. Benedictine "spirituality" ( ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ) has value as a set of embodied practices that supports ordinary Christians who all practice quote:
a common sense approach to living.
We all live in some community or other.
[ 16. August 2013, 21:28: Message edited by: Qoheleth. ]
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
S. Bacchus: Ah, OK, I see how I misread you a bit.
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
We all live in some community or other.
Sure, but most of us don't live in Benedictine communities. We live in communities with people who don't all have the same values, which is what the OP is getting at, I think. Benedict's rule probably translated to non-monastic life a lot more easily at the time when it was written, as most people then knew exactly who their superiors were and thus who they should be listening to. In a more egalitarian age such as ours, this is not the case. We could say, as daronmedway has, that we should be obedient to local church leadership, but most of us live in urban areas where we can pick which church to attend and thus can pick our "superiors," which kind of makes the term meaningless.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that the time-honored institution of being a Benedictine oblate answers all these problems. It precisely associates one with a specific community, namely one Benedictine monastery, through this association one shares practically (including physically, by being there) in a communal life governed by Benedict's rule, as much as the life of a lay person permits, and it provides opportunity for real (as opposed to self-imposed) obedience in spiritual matters, namely to the Director of Oblates (and through him to the Abbot, if that's not the same person anyhow).
There's a reason why most monastic and mendicant groups have "third orders" of lay people. The means to go beyond a mere "spiritual flavour" are out there, if one wants them.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
What IngoB said.
Q. OblSB
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
The Rule of St Benedict is a rule for Christians living in a community. It is a very good rule for that purpose. One of the reasons why it works so well is that it applies a common sense approach to living in a Christian community. Stripped of its essentially communal element, there isn't all that much left that isn't self-evidently a good thing for any Christian to be doing.
Pray regularly, but not so much that you neglect the duties of everyday life (ora et labora); study religious texts; practice hospitality; be honest in your secular business dealings. Those are all very good things, but nothing that ordinary Christians shouldn't already be doing.
Possibly not, but ISTM that the Rule preserves a way of doing all these things, a set of values if you like, which is of universal application. The Sermon on the Mount has always needed a User Guide. Benedictine "spirituality" ( ) has value as a set of embodied practices that supports ordinary Christians who all practice quote:
a common sense approach to living.
We all live in some community or other.
Some more than others. (There is already a thread on isolation.) At uni we dwelt together, we eat together, we worked together, we played together.
Here I am part of many communities, each weaker than that uni bond though.
Should I marry, I imagine the nuclear family would become my overriding community.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I know a Christian couple who are both employed by branches of the Church -- one is a pastor, one is a theologian at a seminary -- who follow the Benedictine Rule primarily as a household, even though they are also associates of monastics and others who have more of a close community practice. I'm not sure if they're oblates or not.
I'd hate to think that some of the commentary above translates to, "If you're not an oblate of a monastic community, don't bother with the Rule."
[ 18. August 2013, 00:37: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In particular I am puzzled as to how to apply obedience. In the original context it was obedience to the Abbot or Abbess, but that doesn't translate simply to my employer - and doesn't cover times of unemployment or self-employment. Our ultimate obedience is to God alone but, as we all know, it isn't always clear what God wants us to do. I can honestly say that I've wanted to do God's will for many years now, but that hasn't stopped me from stuffing up and misleading myself enormously at times. In the here and now, to whom should we be obedient, and to what extent?
Ah! Simple. If it's just you, then you are the abbot. If there are more than one of you, then you as a group of more than one, elect your abbot.
As to quote:
stuffing up and misleading myself enormously at times,
you certainly share those problems with any number of elected abbots I know of, so that might even be a mark of your singular, abbatial authenticity.
(What does that word "stuffing" mean? Screwing up? Fucking up?)
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
IngoB, I would love to be an Oblate. However, the community I have links with has no oblates, as they feel they cannot care for them properly. Hence my question.
Mr Rob: quote:
(What does that word "stuffing" mean? Screwing up? Fucking up?)
Both of those. I think it might be an Australian expression.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The leadership of your local church.
Not blindly! Automatic obedience leads to people (all denominations) being abused (all ages) by church "leaders" who use their position to inflict financial, overwork, sexual, and other kinds of abuse.
Obedience has to mean something more like "seriously consider their opinion," not "shut off your brain and do what you are told no matter who gets hurt."
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
IngoB, I would love to be an Oblate. However, the community I have links with has no oblates, as they feel they cannot care for them properly. Hence my question.
Are there no other Benedictine communities around? If you are called to be an Oblate, then maybe you are called to go where you can be an Oblate.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
daronmedway: The leadership of your local church.
Problem: my church doesn't have leadership.
I agree.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
That doesn't sound like a very Protestant answer, daron, I'd rather trust the voice of God in scripture and prayer (being helped to discern that by a good spiritual director), than the 'leadership' of some cleric or, worse, some self-opiniated layperson. It's no part of a priest's role to 'lead' in the sense of giving directions; it's about pastoral care and gentle guidance. Just like a Benedictine abbot in fact.
Disagree. There's plenty of stuff in the NT about leaders, leadership and being led.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The leadership of your local church.
Not blindly! Automatic obedience leads to people (all denominations) being abused (all ages) by church "leaders" who use their position to inflict financial, overwork, sexual, and other kinds of abuse.
Obedience has to mean something more like "seriously consider their opinion," not "shut off your brain and do what you are told no matter who gets hurt."
I agree. Not blindly, but your definition of obedience just isn't accurate.
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