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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Opinions on UCCF (aka the ones behind the Christian Unions)
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
Probably something in that - I drifted away even from school chapel after the age of 15 or so and only got back into it (and indeed was confirmed) at the age of 21-22 when I was made to go to chapel again every week at Dartmouth. By the time I got to Oxford it was second nature.
Back on thread, I suppose UCCF and others are filling a gap, it's just quite often a gap that will only suit if what you want is bright and breezy evangelicalism (I generalise massively) IYSWIM. I would posit that it probably puts off as many as it attracts. If/where it's the only show in town (ie on smaller, isolated university campuses) that's potentially a sizeable problem. In the larger towns and cities much the less so.
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
For what it's worth, I know of at least one CU that promoted and Aff. Cath. church with a female incumbent (alongside so much more markedly evangelical places), so they're not all narrow-mined about churchmanship.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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scuffleball
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# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
Tangent - is liberal religion more common in post-grads and extremism in undergrads then?
Probably. Or, at least there's more likely to be less diversity among the postgrads. Postgrads and academics are, by and large, the sort of people who, if they go to church, are likely to URC or liberal Anglican. They are similarly likely be members of the Labour, Liberal Democratic, or Green parties. Whereas a certain sort of undergraduate is bound to go off to a future in the City, the Conservative Party, and (if churchgoing) and one of the two Brompton flagships (according to taste).
That's obviously a grotesque caricature: not all postgrads are wet liberals, and certainly not all undergrads are raging conservatives; not all liberal Anglicans are politically leftish (David Cameron isn't, for instance) and not all Evangelicals or traditionalist Roman Catholics are politically conservative. But there are social groups at least some universities that match what I've described: Conservative Association, Christ Church Hunt (or Trinity Foot Beagles), and the Oxford Oratory (or the Tridentine Mass at Fisher House) on one hand; College chapel, feminist discussion group, and Labour society on the other. There's enough truth in the stereotype I'm making that anyone familiar with University life will recognize it. Of the two groups, the more liberal/left-leaning one is more likely to contain postgrads and academic staff.
Not all of the Labour party are wet liberals either! (Arguably the Labour party has less of a tendency for "glib phrases" and a greater value for testimony and practical results than the Lib Dems/Greens?) We had our fair share of leftist evangelicals too; I'd hardly call many of them "liberals" though, and I doubt they'd call themselves that either.
And as for liberal anglicans not being leftist, remnants of ken's Anglicanism-as-a-sort-of-Shinto persist in the independent schools and percolate into college chapels. It's dying but by no means dead yet.
Not all beaglers are conservative either; of our Masters of the Hunt in my time, one was a wet-tory-prayer-book-anglican-who-voted-labour - although he lurks on this chatroom, so I imagine he'll have more to say on the political gamut of beagling if he's reading this - one was one was a fairly by-the-book middle-class-liberal; the tho In my experience the beaglers I knew tended to be as tongue-in-cheek about our Conservatives as the man on the street.
Come to think of it, our college chapel had an oddly large number of beaglers, considering we're not a traditionally beagling college.
quote:
Anyway the reason my CU rocked was simple - the people genuinely loved and cared for each other.
Ours did too, especially in the grassroots. That doesn't mean it didn't have an insidious power structure. If I give the impression to the contrary, I certainly don't mean to.
quote:
I found the atmosphere at Oxford generally much more religion friendly, and always put this down to the fact that it is so fragmented around the various chapels and chaplaincies
And so the Christian faith is presented as disunited - no meaningful ecumenism. Also the black spot I mentioned earlier - liberal nonconformism.
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The inflence of the CU at the Oxford Univesity level is so diluted as to be negligible, which to be quite honest I always saw as a definite plus.
That's rather college-dependant - at Wadham, RPC and SPC it's the main Christian organization. At Catz it may well be the only one. By contrast at Keble, Hertford and Trinity the college was very prominent in the Christian community.
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I also had an instinct to keep away from self selecting groups like that on the same basis that as a non-smoker I didn't specify a non-smoking hall
Surely any religious group there is self-selecting?
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Oxford has a high proportion of students from the public schools who will have been exposed to regular religion in their school chapels. Of course that will have inoculated many against it, but on balance it probably means that churchgoing is a more natural part of life for more people, unlike those from comprehensive schools and working or lower-middle class backgrounds who predominantly end up in other universities.
I have yet to meet anyone with anything good to say about (Anglican) public school chapel; most people whose religion endured it seem to look back on it negatively. It also seems to have resulted in a lot of people being confirmed who didn't believe anything, just because it was something you had to do going to that school.
Chapel, or whatever it is called there, and other Religious Instruction at Ampleforth seem to be more fondly remembered, for some reason.
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Help ma Boab, I'm lost. Is this supposed to be Christianity? There's no hope. SUs chucking off CUs and vice versa, women can't speak petty infighting amongst groups. Get rid of them all. Christ's Body is the Church, not some poncy little organisation run by a bunch of spotty nineteen year olds. But I dont know my acronyms from my italicisms
, maybe best that I get down to my local gospel hall, I'm clearly not clever enough to be amongst the Bright Young Things of SOF, CU, CM, UCCF or FTWALOS.
Hmm, this is an awkward one - what is Christianity anyhow? Istm that in UCCF the answer is "The doctrinal basis, and unless you hold to it, you are not with us," And herein lies the problem - how do you dwell with those who refuse to dwell with you? How do you do "Ubi Caritas et Amor" when the love is refused? How do you break bread with those who do not wish to eat at the same table any way and would not dare to invite you to theirs without the express purpose of telling you to think like them? The problem with the UCCF is that there doctrine has trumped care; indeed the chief form of love seems to be doctrine in everything; doctrine in welcoming international students in a strange new land for the first time, doctrine in helping drunk people home from nightclubs...
You see, the ethos of contemporary liberalism is "you cannot get something for nothing" and "nobody is truly altruistic; nobody gives without expecting in return; love exists but on paper." And it is surely the business of the church to challenge that ethos, not to reinforce it.
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As for NUS:
1) They are a political joke, and are no more representative of students as a whole than are the Christians.
2) SUs have a long and dishonourable history of using all means available to them to chuck CUs off campus. Whether they succeed seems to depend mostly on how long a leash the SU is given by the university hierarchy.
1. Maybe; but then I cannot possibly speak for FE students, or students of ex-polies, who may tend to hold those views more greatly than we do. But OUSU was largely un-representative, yep; typically those who didn't make the OULC cut. OUSU Charities and Community reps have been decent sorts though; a lot of them come up through London Citizens, the Jellicoe Community even.
As for WomCam, I knew a fair few of their organizers, and they were decidedly agreeable and welcoming if a bit doctrinaire and switched off if you said anything that challenged their paradigm - a bit like the CU types, I guess. They seem to have toned down a little over the past couple of years, to the joy of some and the chagrin of others. They published a decidedly incomprehensible zine with angsty poetry and other things,
2. There is a decided limit to what the OUSU can do as the only property they control is their own offices. Most meetings happen in individual colleges. The most powerful they could do is place them under advertizing ban, which means no mention in OUSU publications (freshers' guide, website society directory, alternative prospectus etc) and no Freshers' Fair stand. They will never do this, though.
The worst sort of "banning" in Oxford is the University witholding the right to use their name - the Oxford University Conservative Association has had to rename itself the "Oxford Conservative Association" on and off in my memory. Again, the University will never do this short of financial irregularity or debauchery and licentiousness, although they do insist on having a "senior member" on the committee.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I think scuffleball has highlighted something important about UCCF - what about when other groups want to do things with them, but UCCF refuse? I'm not even talking about interfaith stuff (although I really think UCCF should do more interfaith stuff) or social action, but just working with other Christian groups on campus and the chaplaincy. When CUs refuse to work with perfectly sound and mainstream chaplaincies....what can the rest of us do?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Scuffleball, absolutely take your point about self-selection, I suppose what I meant was the tendency of CUs at certain universities, eg my first one,to take over your life. I didn't want that, so I steered clear.
I think the influence or otherwise of the CU does Depend heavily on college, with wider groupings like the chaplaincy/oratory/Pusey House waxing and waning over time. This does look divided, but given the attendees are exercising choice, and all seem to be more or less sanctioned versions of Christianity, I'm not sure what the answer is.
Just on the beagling tangent, I've spent a happy half hour trying to work out who you have in mind with your examples..... Anyway, no names no pack drill.
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think scuffleball has highlighted something important about UCCF - what about when other groups want to do things with them, but UCCF refuse? I'm not even talking about interfaith stuff (although I really think UCCF should do more interfaith stuff) or social action, but just working with other Christian groups on campus and the chaplaincy. When CUs refuse to work with perfectly sound and mainstream chaplaincies....what can the rest of us do?
Protecting the integrity of doctrine of the mission. TBH I've got a little more sympathy for this as I've watched the trainwrecks that some of my friends' faiths have become post-uni ... but only a little. There's also the institutional memory of what happened to the SCM, which drifted a very long way from its starting point. Another thing is that CUs can actually work with other groups if they like; whether they do or not seems to be a combination of the temperament of the staff worker, the temperament of the exec and the length of the leash between them.
You might find this history of CICCU interesting: a surprising amount of influence is ascribed to Basil Atkinson, who studied or worked at the university for around 50 years and became a trusted adviser to the CU within that time. He had some pretty unecumenical views apparently, and was able to push the CU quite a long way in that direction during his time.
[ 19. August 2013, 21:59: Message edited by: Dinghy Sailor ]
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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scuffleball
Shipmate
# 16480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Protecting the integrity of doctrine of the mission. TBH I've got a little more sympathy for this as I've watched the trainwrecks that some of my friends' faiths have become post-uni ... but only a little. There's also the institutional memory of what happened to the SCM, which drifted a very long way from its starting point.
I'm not sure which point of view you are expressing sympathy for here?
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Just on the beagling tangent, I've spent a happy half hour trying to work out who you have in mind with your examples..... Anyway, no names no pack drill.
Which means I've probably rather misinterpreted the political views of the people in question then! What era were you around, mind? Unless... you're... wait... and now I'm trying to guess who /you/ are now too, but I think the "behind the dreaming spires" just about clinches it?
Here's a hint - neither were born in the UK, and thus you can probably already work out the college. But really I don't want to break a rule by outing someone on the ship in real life without their consent.
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SPK: I also plan to create ... a Calvinist Ordinariate
ken: I thought it was called Taize?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I think scuffleball has highlighted something important about UCCF - what about when other groups want to do things with them, but UCCF refuse? I'm not even talking about interfaith stuff (although I really think UCCF should do more interfaith stuff) or social action, but just working with other Christian groups on campus and the chaplaincy. When CUs refuse to work with perfectly sound and mainstream chaplaincies....what can the rest of us do?
Protecting the integrity of doctrine of the mission. TBH I've got a little more sympathy for this as I've watched the trainwrecks that some of my friends' faiths have become post-uni ... but only a little. There's also the institutional memory of what happened to the SCM, which drifted a very long way from its starting point. Another thing is that CUs can actually work with other groups if they like; whether they do or not seems to be a combination of the temperament of the staff worker, the temperament of the exec and the length of the leash between them.
You might find this history of CICCU interesting: a surprising amount of influence is ascribed to Basil Atkinson, who studied or worked at the university for around 50 years and became a trusted adviser to the CU within that time. He had some pretty unecumenical views apparently, and was able to push the CU quite a long way in that direction during his time.
But then, working with other groups/the chaplaincy would benefit a lot of CUs in terms of mission. So what's the point in 'integrity of doctrine' if you're going to die off anyway? The CU at my uni is, as has been said, very conservative evangelical and cessationist. The obsession with doctrinal purity has resulted in a very unwelcoming atmosphere and as a result, the group haemorrhages members. It can't be the only one like this, although it's probably rarer than love-bombing charismatic CUs. In cases like the one at my uni, how could non-cooperation with other groups possibly benefit the CU?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by scuffleball:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Protecting the integrity of doctrine of the mission. TBH I've got a little more sympathy for this as I've watched the trainwrecks that some of my friends' faiths have become post-uni ... but only a little. There's also the institutional memory of what happened to the SCM, which drifted a very long way from its starting point.
I'm not sure which point of view you are expressing sympathy for here?
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Just on the beagling tangent, I've spent a happy half hour trying to work out who you have in mind with your examples..... Anyway, no names no pack drill.
But really I don't want to break a rule by outing someone on the ship in real life without their consent.
Don't worry, completely agree, wasn't asking you to!
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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A.Pilgrim
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# 15044
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Posted
One piece of jargon that hasn't been explained yet is JCR. It stands for Junior Common Room, and in a collegiate university such as Oxford or Cambridge, is the location for (and by extension of meaning, the organisation that arranges) general social activites (rather than specific-interest activities) for the undergraduate members of a college.
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
... SOF, CU, CM, UCCF or FTWALOS.
I can think of a number of phrases that could be expanded from the last initialism, but not one that fits in context. Any chance of an explanation?
Angus
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
AUK is Audax UK, the long distance cyclists' association ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
My pleasure. You can also add that Cambridge has courts rather than quads and supervisions rather than (academic) tutorials.
I'm guessing, by the way, that WALOS means With A Lot of Students. But FT? Fundamentalist Tabernacle? Frilly Tatshop, moving up the candle there?
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
My pleasure. You can also add that Cambridge has courts rather than quads and supervisions rather than (academic) tutorials.
I'm guessing, by the way, that WALOS means With A Lot of Students. But FT? Fundamentalist Tabernacle? Frilly Tatshop, moving up the candle there?
FTWALOS? It can mean what you want it to mean. I was using it as Further Tutoring Wanted As Lots Obviously Supposed.
On the other hand, some might use it to mean: F##k This, What A Load of S###e.
Acronyms, sorry italicisms, are so very flexible. They can mean whatever the user/reader wants them to mean. They just don't enlighten very much, except those in the know. Which is why, I suspect, that our Bright Young Things on here just love to use them.
IWAASM
[ 20. August 2013, 17:24: Message edited by: would love to belong ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
My pleasure. You can also add that Cambridge has courts rather than quads and supervisions rather than (academic) tutorials.
I'm guessing, by the way, that WALOS means With A Lot of Students. But FT? Fundamentalist Tabernacle? Frilly Tatshop, moving up the candle there?
FTWALOS? It can mean what you want it to mean. I was using it as Further Tutoring Wanted As Lots Obviously Supposed.
On the other hand, some might use it to mean: F##k This, What A Load of S###e.
Acronyms, sorry italicisms, are so very flexible. They can mean whatever the user/reader wants them to mean. They just don't enlighten very much, except those in the know. Which is why, I suspect, that our Bright Young Things on here just love to use them.
IWAASM
No, initialisms (not italicisms - that would surely mean writing in italics?) are just used to abbreviate long names - like the Student Christian Movement, the University & Colleges Christian Federation, Ship of Fools etc. There are people on here of your age who use them and other initialisms so I'm not sure why you think it's just me and other younger board members trying to impose the use of abbreviations on everyone? Most of the board members on here are aged 40 or over, I would guess. I mean, do you never talk about the BBC or the RSPCA? They're initialisms.
Anyway, this is off-topic. If there's an abbreviation you're not sure about, ask the person who used it - I didn't know the Oxford terms after all. It's not people trying to exclude you, people are just using the terms they're used to.
[ 20. August 2013, 23:08: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Cedd007
Shipmate
# 16180
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Posted
Fascinating. Thanks for catching me up with the last half century. This morning, and before reading this thread this evening, I decided I really ought to be praying for the IFES (the international body of UCCF's as it were). Having read the anecdotal evidence above, I shall now add UCCF to my prayer list as well.
In my own experience OICCU was a vital staging post on the Christian journey. I arrived at college, newly converted in a tin tabernacle, with a conviction that the Bible was completely literal, that churches had utterly failed to spread the Good News, and that there were only 4 Christians in Italy, etc. etc. Providentially the OICCU representative (and only member at the time in my college) had a room adjacent to mine, and my first experience of Church, after the tin tabernacle, was fellowship with him and others over Bible Study, for which there was no party line - and indeed no question to answer except 'what does this passage from Mark mean to you?' It was much later that the college Chaplain, a High Church liberal, managed to to convince me he didn't have horns, and coaxed me along to the college chapel.
I have, hopefully, mellowed since then. Except over the issue of Evangelism: I still believe that churches have failed to spread the Good News. I'm pleasantly surprised that my own Church of England diocese has suddenly decided that Evangelism is a good thing, though I fear this discovery may be 50 years too late - in preserving the Church of England.
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
No idea what FTWALOS means but at the risk of being mildly pedantic, at Cambridge it's Junior Combination Room rather than Common Room. But it's essentially the same thing.
Thanks Albertus, I'll file that away in Absolutely Useless Knowledge (AUK).
My pleasure. You can also add that Cambridge has courts rather than quads and supervisions rather than (academic) tutorials.
I'm guessing, by the way, that WALOS means With A Lot of Students. But FT? Fundamentalist Tabernacle? Frilly Tatshop, moving up the candle there?
FTWALOS? It can mean what you want it to mean. I was using it as Further Tutoring Wanted As Lots Obviously Supposed.
On the other hand, some might use it to mean: F##k This, What A Load of S###e.
Acronyms, sorry italicisms, are so very flexible. They can mean whatever the user/reader wants them to mean. They just don't enlighten very much, except those in the know. Which is why, I suspect, that our Bright Young Things on here just love to use them.
IWAASM
No, initialisms (not italicisms - that would surely mean writing in italics?) are just used to abbreviate long names - like the Student Christian Movement, the University & Colleges Christian Federation, Ship of Fools etc. There are people on here of your age who use them and other initialisms so I'm not sure why you think it's just me and other younger board members trying to impose the use of abbreviations on everyone? Most of the board members on here are aged 40 or over, I would guess. I mean, do you never talk about the BBC or the RSPCA? They're initialisms.
Anyway, this is off-topic. If there's an abbreviation you're not sure about, ask the person who used it - I didn't know the Oxford terms after all. It's not people trying to exclude you, people are just using the terms they're used to.
quote:
Jade, you better explain that BBC one to me.
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The BBC as in the British Broadcasting Corporation? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Bloody Boring Content?
Or, is that just The Archers? (ducks for cover)
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Of course it's not. It's You and Yours and Quote Unquote as well.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
University & Colleges Christian Federation
*Fellowship
You know, like FellowShip of Fools ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
University & Colleges Christian Federation
*Fellowship
You know, like FellowShip of Fools
Duly noted! I knew it was University & Colleges Christian something and just guessed the F ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
University & Colleges Christian Federation
*Fellowship
You know, like FellowShip of Fools
Duly noted! I knew it was University & Colleges Christian something and just guessed the F Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
Fellowship is usually emphasised in terms of coming together to worship and study God and Christ. Rather than just "social activities".
At my uni, there weren't many social events organised centrally. The Hall Groups always had some social events organised for their hall at the start of the year; usually an "open room" where one of the leaders used their room and there was tea, coffee, juice, cake etc and people mingled and chatted as they wanted. Halls, and often Union buildings, rarely have spaces suitable for people to have a social that isn't a bar. Other rooms are usually either too big (though good for main meetings, with speakers and worship band etc) or hidden away in a back corridor where poor Freshers are never going to find them.
Of course, main meetings were followed by those wanting to hang around having a talk and chat, and in the first few weeks at least it wouldn't be unusual for someone to bring allow some biscuits or cake. And, people pretty soon found out who was likely to go to the Hall bar or local pub for an orange juice and joined in. May CU members ended up sharing houses, with associated fellowship. And, there was always the house party.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
Fellowship is usually emphasised in terms of coming together to worship and study God and Christ. Rather than just "social activities".
At my uni, there weren't many social events organised centrally. The Hall Groups always had some social events organised for their hall at the start of the year; usually an "open room" where one of the leaders used their room and there was tea, coffee, juice, cake etc and people mingled and chatted as they wanted. Halls, and often Union buildings, rarely have spaces suitable for people to have a social that isn't a bar. Other rooms are usually either too big (though good for main meetings, with speakers and worship band etc) or hidden away in a back corridor where poor Freshers are never going to find them.
Of course, main meetings were followed by those wanting to hang around having a talk and chat, and in the first few weeks at least it wouldn't be unusual for someone to bring allow some biscuits or cake. And, people pretty soon found out who was likely to go to the Hall bar or local pub for an orange juice and joined in. May CU members ended up sharing houses, with associated fellowship. And, there was always the house party.
But...how are people going to be encouraged to join the CU, or feel welcome? And at my uni, the CU doesn't have Hall groups.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Well, we never encouraged anyone to join the ECU. Just come along to as many, or as few, meetings as they wanted. We wanted people to be committed to Christ, and live out that committment in their lives as students. Many found ECU membership to be something that allowed them to express that commitment in more concrete terms, others didn't feel that step to be necessary, many found a commitment to a local church to be of benefit too. Some even came regularly to ECU meetings while making their commitment to Christ through membership of one of the chaplaincy groups (who depended on formal members to secure funds from the Students Union and access to SU facilities - the ECU never sought SU funds and used non-SU facilities most of the time).
Feeling welcome was almost always through individuals and small groups, and over an extended period of time. It has to be, doesn't it? Having a social event to welcome people doesn't really cut it. It just provides space for people to get lost in the corners, and for older students to think "we've had the party welcoming people, we don't need to do any more" (though most wouldn't). Welcome has to be part of every event, throughout the year, and that has to be mainly through individuals getting to know new people and helping them get to know others.
Besides, the theory was that we'd have a constant stream of new people as our witness on the campus drew people to Christ (and, not by poaching from the Chaplaincies). It never quite happened that way, but you couldn't put all your welcome eggs in the first meeting of the year basket.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
I see your point about the small groups, and think that is probably where the CU at my uni goes wrong. There are no small groups to build relationships with people, it's just an hour of being talked at. I attended meetings when I first started uni and if my two friends from the chaplaincy weren't there (one was a postgrad student and one is on the CoE Youth Council so was often away on church business), nobody would speak to me. Literally nobody, right from the start. I've never been in such a cold, spiritually-dead (and I'm no charismatic and don't usually think in those terms) environment in my Christian life.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I see your point about the small groups, and think that is probably where the CU at my uni goes wrong. There are no small groups to build relationships with people, it's just an hour of being talked at. I attended meetings when I first started uni and if my two friends from the chaplaincy weren't there (one was a postgrad student and one is on the CoE Youth Council so was often away on church business), nobody would speak to me. Literally nobody, right from the start. I've never been in such a cold, spiritually-dead (and I'm no charismatic and don't usually think in those terms) environment in my Christian life.
Jade that is really sad, and totally indefensible behaviour from any group of Christians. I am really sorry.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I entirely agree with Lep. The life blood, IMO, of a CU is the small groups. Especially in the first year. That's where the friendships that provide the fellowship and support from peers comes from. CU members do also need fellowship & support from others, which is where local churches play an essential role - providing they are churches for all, and don't end up with services that only cater for students (and, maybe a few recent graduates). The main meetings form a part of the whole CU thing; but despite the name they shouldn't be the primary activity of the CU ... if there needs be a choice between small groups and main meetings, I'd drop the main meeting in a flash (not, I hope, that such a decision ever needs to be made). The absence of small groups is a situation that the CU leadership, with support from UCCF staff workers and others, should be addressing urgently.
Being ignored in a main meeting is even worse. But, without the small group network it becomes all to easy to happen. You'll find the same in churches; people don't meet up during the week, so Sunday becomes a time to catch up with people they know and it's easy (especially in a larger church) for people to be missed out. Have that small group network in place and then, IMO, the chances of someone not feeling the need to spend a long time with people they saw a day or two earlier and keeping an eye open on anyone being left out are better. No guarantees, of course.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
There are Bible studies weekly, but they come with set answers so not really real studies? And they get dropped every couple of weeks so the CU can do mission stuff like Text A Treat. Basically all the content of CU meetings and everything else they do revolves around mission events with no building up of the CU members.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It may reflect size of CU (though, for a while ours was smaller with ~30 people), possibly how much time students have available, but that's very different from my experience.
Hall groups were Bible Study groups, but the format was 10 mins or so chat before settling into maybe an hour discussing the text (chosen by the group leaders, who prepared some background notes to help get discussion moving if needed), a time of prayer (maybe sing a song or two, depending on the abilities of the group to sing unaccompanied or if someone could pluck a few chords on a guitar). Then, the kettle would go on, the biscuits come out (toast seemed to work well too) and people would talk abuot whatever until the leader who was giving up their room would say "sorry, I've a lecture at 9.30 and would like more than 2h sleep first". Prepared questions might make things easier for busy students, preparing a Bible study takes longer than actually leading it (a bit like preparing a sermon really). A set of "correct answers" seems antithical to a discussion group though, very strange - it's somethign I wouldn't expect to work fro pre-teen Sunday School let alone intelligent university students learning to question everything (and, usually, in the questioning building a far firmer knowledge than merely being told facts).
Main meetings were mostly aimed at teaching, supporting existing members, worship. Yes, a couple of times a term they'd be specifically aimed at being more accessible to non-Christians (they were termed "evangelistic") and people encouraged to invite friends to those evenings specifically. We also organised door-to-door evangelism and street preaching on the steps of the Student Union. And, of course, the big mission week every couple of years. The aims of the ECU were very much 1) to enable spiritual growth of Christian students, 2) to support individual students to witness to their faith and 3) be a corporate witness to Christ on the campus. If a CU only aims at 3) then it's going to collapse - it needs the tripod of all three to be healthy.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
Er yes, Jade, they do. As well as holding small group meetings.
Suggest you look at their website.
Or, doesn't this fit with your anti UCCF thesis? I rather smell another agenda here to portray Northampton - church life and university - as somewhere and something it isn't. I lived/worked there is church/non church contexts for 10 + years and still have many friends and contacts there. It's clearly your POV of the town and university but it just doesn't ring true.
[ 22. August 2013, 07:28: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Speaking personally, I felt very excluded from CU because I didn't attend the 'right' church and felt like the CU was missing the point in terms of mission
You should try being the token evangelical at an SCM meeting: officially excluding anyone is unnecessary when sniffy condescension will do the trick just as effectively.
Can be true IME of "Sea of Faith" meetings as well.
The people I meet at Sea of Faith conferences often turn out to be old SCM members from 50-60 years back (but then there's F****, who was president of the other option, the Evangelical Union, in my day). I have been told that the NZ Sea of Faith is somewhat different from the UK one. I'm not clear about the details: could it be that a show of hands at conference indicates that about 70% are involved/active in churches.
Neither do I know what other organisations are active in our universities, but a younger graduate (40+) is one of a handful trying to revitalise the local SCM. She urges us older ones to come along but we tend to be otherwise engaged, not deliberately, but wishing her well inn her efforts.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
Er yes, Jade, they do. As well as holding small group meetings.
Suggest you look at their website.
Or, doesn't this fit with your anti UCCF thesis? I rather smell another agenda here to portray Northampton - church life and university - as somewhere and something it isn't. I lived/worked there is church/non church contexts for 10 + years and still have many friends and contacts there. It's clearly your POV of the town and university but it just doesn't ring true.
I'm not anti-UCCF - I disagree with them but I don't want to destroy them! Even UCCF promoting socials and small groups doesn't mean that my uni's CU automatically has them, because they don't. I attended CU meetings for most of my first year at uni and my best friend at uni was Vice President, I know what happened. I've been to other CUs (Chichester, Kent, Brighton, the CU at my FE college) that behave very differently, and enjoyed my experiences of them.
Sorry, but why are you accusing me of lying? When I started uni I was looking forward to being in the CU, but having LITERALLY NOBODY SPEAK TO ME during meetings will kind of put you off. Other things happened with the group leadership. I go to my own church in Northampton but have no issue with the other churches there, bar a couple of extreme examples. Northampton uni has a multi-faith chaplaincy so there are people from most denominations there and I got on with them fine. Sorry but why does an example of a CU acting badly mean I'm lying? Other people here have brought up examples of other CUs behaving badly. It happens. There are good CUs and bad CUs, and might I add, good SCM groups and bad SCM groups (I am only an individual SCM member btw, there is no group at Northampton).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
I'm assuming ExclamationMark Googled the Northampton CU site, and found the events page where it quite clearly has a "pub social" for Freshers Week this year. Though, it could easily be the first time they've ever done that and your experience of "no social events" is accurate.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
The description of the CU doesn't fit with what I know of it. It also wasn't my experience when I lived in Northants and worked a couple of miles away from the University.
As they didn't make you welcome - well, they should certainly be ashamed of that. Did you take it up with them directly - I would?
It's true IME that CU's seem to run in cycles and Northampton may now be in con evo, anti women one now. Yep Duke Street may be the preferred location but not long ago it was Mount Pleasant, St Giles and/or Broadmead. It's hardly likely to recommend churches whose take on issues of morality and sexuality conflict with its own statement of faith.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ButchCassidy
Shipmate
# 11147
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Posted
It does seem that they have small groups, too, from their website.
That said, I accept your experiences. I recall having the same at my CU (UCL) back in the day. Noone talked to me then.
But looking back, I'm fairly clear that wasn't a CU issue: that was an issue with new, shy students. I was probably visibly shy, as were they, but they already had friends, and its easier to talk to friends than a shy newbie, particularly when there are many other newbies to talk to! I guess the CU would like to have done things differently, but we all suffer lapses.
I know this, because when I got to know them, I realised that they had been shy. The problem is, CU often know how to put on quite a cool shiny image, but they're still ultimately a bunch of shy students.
After a couple of years, I went to the more liberal Catholic Society. And they didn't talk to me either! Because they were shy. But by this point I wasn't shy, so I went up and talked to them instead
Or, the people at your CU might be deliberately unfriendly. But IME, despite my paranoid brain, its very rare that people deliberately do not want to be friendly. It can just be a scary thing to go up to new people!
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[QUOTE]Speaking of fellowship though, how emphasised is this in other people's experiences of CUs? In the CU at my uni, they don't even have socials for freshers, there are no social or fellowship activities at all. How normal is this?
Er yes, Jade, they do. As well as holding small group meetings.
Suggest you look at their website.
Or, doesn't this fit with your anti UCCF thesis? I rather smell another agenda here to portray Northampton - church life and university - as somewhere and something it isn't. I lived/worked there is church/non church contexts for 10 + years and still have many friends and contacts there. It's clearly your POV of the town and university but it just doesn't ring true.
I'm not anti-UCCF - I disagree with them but I don't want to destroy them! Even UCCF promoting socials and small groups doesn't mean that my uni's CU automatically has them, because they don't. I attended CU meetings for most of my first year at uni and my best friend at uni was Vice President, I know what happened. I've been to other CUs (Chichester, Kent, Brighton, the CU at my FE college) that behave very differently, and enjoyed my experiences of them.
Sorry, but why are you accusing me of lying? When I started uni I was looking forward to being in the CU, but having LITERALLY NOBODY SPEAK TO ME during meetings will kind of put you off. Other things happened with the group leadership. I go to my own church in Northampton but have no issue with the other churches there, bar a couple of extreme examples. Northampton uni has a multi-faith chaplaincy so there are people from most denominations there and I got on with them fine. Sorry but why does an example of a CU acting badly mean I'm lying? Other people here have brought up examples of other CUs behaving badly. It happens. There are good CUs and bad CUs, and might I add, good SCM groups and bad SCM groups (I am only an individual SCM member btw, there is no group at Northampton).
Sorry Jade - I didn't mean to accuse you of lying. I suppose I was trying to make a point - and have done so badly by highlighting the fact that we see the local situation in very different ways.
I can't and won't deny that the CU has hurt you. They shouldn't have done it and unless someone takes them to task then they won't change if that's what the people or the ethos is like.
Apologies if I have piled anything on top of all that by my response.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ButchCassidy:
It does seem that they have small groups, too, from their website.
The presence of small groups has been acknowledged ... just that rather than being discussion groups they have set answers. To be honest, I've no idea how the dynamic of such a group works. One leader asks the questions, the other gives the answer and the people in the room listen to this dialogue But my experience of small groups is entirely where there may not even be a question asked by the leaders, with everyone chipping in as they want to (the task of the leader then becomes one of stopping the person with the big mouth dominating, and encouraging the quiet people to have their say).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
]The presence of small groups has been acknowledged ... just that rather than being discussion groups they have set answers. To be honest, I've no idea how the dynamic of such a group works.
Short answer, from my memory of such things: the leader asks the question. A few tentative answers are given. If none of them are correct, the leader subtly asks a leading question. If this fails to elicit the correct answer, the leader asks a blatant leading question, or says, this is what I think. (In many groups, stage two is omitted; these are students.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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ButchCassidy
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# 11147
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Posted
Oh yes. Dafyd's description was also my experience!
Still found them helpful though: its useful to get perspectives, even if one keeps ones own counsel as to what you actually think. It also means I'll never be nervous about praying in groups again..
And IME most groups will try to do fellowship things, bbqs in summer, we had icecream in Leicester Sq :-), good days. Although I didn't agree with the small group leaders, I didn't feel that conflicted me from fellowshipping with them.
[ 22. August 2013, 11:10: Message edited by: ButchCassidy ]
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would love to belong
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# 16747
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Posted
This is way out of me experience, but I won't let that stop me commenting and being shot down. I was at Glasgow University in the mid 70s and never ventured near the CU (if there was such a thing back then there) or indeed any other Christian organisation except the RCC chaplaincy. By way of explanation I was brought up as a nominal Protestant (Presbyterian) and back then west central Scotland was divided on sectarian lines and I literally did not know any RCs until university when I fell in with a bunch of RCs who were fun people and a delight to hang out with. I attended mass on seversl occasions at Turnbull Hall, as it was then called (dont know what it is now). I went not because I was interested in the faith but because by new pals seemed to enjoy their (to me) exotic religious practices.
I think Jade is right, a lot of these evangelical groupings are distinctly unfriendly to outsiders (I never met with anything but open and joyful friendliness at the university catholic chaplaincy, and no attempt was made to convert me). quote:
[ 22. August 2013, 11:35: Message edited by: would love to belong ]
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
I think Jade is right, a lot of these evangelical groupings are distinctly unfriendly to outsiders
I suspect it's an "occupational hazard". With an evangelistic aim, there is a danger of seeing people you don't know as potential new converts (which, sadly, often includes converts from a different version of Christian faith). The initial conversation can then very quickly move through the "name, course, home town" to "do you accept the total depravity of the human soul?". Which can be very unfriendly*, and incredibly counter productive in terms of evangelism (IMO).
* except to people who fall well within that section of evangelicalism and immediately respond "Thank God! Someone else who cares about the total depravity of the human soul".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
I think Jade is right, a lot of these evangelical groupings are distinctly unfriendly to outsiders
I suspect it's an "occupational hazard". With an evangelistic aim, there is a danger of seeing people you don't know as potential new converts (which, sadly, often includes converts from a different version of Christian faith). The initial conversation can then very quickly move through the "name, course, home town" to "do you accept the total depravity of the human soul?". Which can be very unfriendly*, and incredibly counter productive in terms of evangelism (IMO).
* except to people who fall well within that section of evangelicalism and immediately respond "Thank God! Someone else who cares about the total depravity of the human soul".
The ECU when I was at uni skipped the "name, course, home town" when speaking to folk on the (adjacent) Pagan Society stall at freshers' Fair to quickly check that "you do know you're going to hell, don't you?"
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
The person given the task of arranging stalls at Freshers Fair usually had a good laugh. "Hmmmm, who can we put the CU next to this year to make them really uncomfortable?". Right next to the loudest, loud speaker was always popular. Next to the LGBT society was usually ruled out, because the LGBT people started screaming about persecution. The Islamic Soc and Atheists always seemed popular. The imaginative, or just bit more aware, realised that right next to the Joint Chaplaincy stall (under that same loud speaker, of course) was likely to cause the most consternation among the conservative members of ECU.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The roleplaying society is always a good bet, with some nice, prominent D&D books. I always found it funny to imagine the reaction of those evangelicals who freak out over D&D if they ever encounter Unknown Armies or Call of Cthulu.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The description of the CU doesn't fit with what I know of it. It also wasn't my experience when I lived in Northants and worked a couple of miles away from the University.
As they didn't make you welcome - well, they should certainly be ashamed of that. Did you take it up with them directly - I would?
It's true IME that CU's seem to run in cycles and Northampton may now be in con evo, anti women one now. Yep Duke Street may be the preferred location but not long ago it was Mount Pleasant, St Giles and/or Broadmead. It's hardly likely to recommend churches whose take on issues of morality and sexuality conflict with its own statement of faith.
I don't think the CU is actually anti-women - they've still got women on the leadership team. And Duke Street is not the preferred church at the moment, it's Reynard Way (it was Kingdom Life before that) with a few people at Vineyard (I like the Vineyard pastor very much as it happens). St Giles doesn't get a look in due to the distance between it and Park Campus (and in fairness was in interregnum for most of last academic year). I was never under the impression that the CU would agree with me on everything - I knew it was going to be evangelical - but I did still want to make new Christian friends even if I disagreed with them. Actually none of the issues I disagreed with people on were sexuality/morality-related, it was the strongly cessationist atmosphere (I'm not charismatic but also not cessationist....I like the Wesleyan Quadrilateral) and that the only thing ever discussed was mission, with no building up of each other.
I haven't seen the schedule for the 13/14 academic year, there was definitely no pub social last year. If that's on the schedule then that's a great thing.
I did take the lack of welcome up with leadership (my VP friend couldn't help due to issues with the rest of the leadership team) but was pretty much told 'that's not what we're here for'. The leadership team has changed since then though, so things may well improve. It should do, since the CU at Northampton haemorrhages members.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by would love to belong:
This is way out of me experience, but I won't let that stop me commenting and being shot down. I was at Glasgow University in the mid 70s and never ventured near the CU (if there was such a thing back then there) or indeed any other Christian organisation except the RCC chaplaincy. By way of explanation I was brought up as a nominal Protestant (Presbyterian) and back then west central Scotland was divided on sectarian lines and I literally did not know any RCs until university when I fell in with a bunch of RCs who were fun people and a delight to hang out with. I attended mass on seversl occasions at Turnbull Hall, as it was then called (dont know what it is now). I went not because I was interested in the faith but because by new pals seemed to enjoy their (to me) exotic religious practices.
I think Jade is right, a lot of these evangelical groupings are distinctly unfriendly to outsiders (I never met with anything but open and joyful friendliness at the university catholic chaplaincy, and no attempt was made to convert me). quote:
Actually most CUs I've come across (when I've been at interviews or open days at various universities, or visiting with friends) have been incredibly friendly. Maybe a charismatic v conservative thing? But then, of course, sometimes that big extrovert friendliness can be off-putting in itself! Certainly, a CU not being friendly was very surprising to me, it wasn't my first encounter with Christian Unions.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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