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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Theology of demons, aliens & conspiracy theories
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
This has come from a real conversation - the links are things I have searched for since returning home.
I knew that there are grand conspiracy theories out there - including about the New World Order.
I knew about alien and UFO believers and abduction claims.
I knew about Christian fringes with obsessive concern about spiritual warfare and the role of demons in our world.
Until today I had not come across the combined version.
Apparently -
Demons are tall reptilians who are shapeshifters, these came to earth (Gen 6) and bred with human woman to create the Nephilim.
The demons have servants who are the Greys - the stereotype grey humanoids with overlarge eyes favoured of alien sightings.
These demons, greys and their human servants (the unaware and the full on Satanists) are the cause of all the bad things, and great plots to take over the world with huge underground bases. And they do hybridization experiments with the abductees...
And it is all in the Bible....
nephilim
aliens as demons
Gen 6 to UFO abductions!
Who out there has come across this particular oddity before?
What other strange combinations of 'theology' and .... have you encountered?
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
That pet cats are demon possessed (because the Egyptians used to worship them and witches had them - never mind that witches had a whole heap of familiars including hedgehogs!) and Christians shouldn't own them. Oh and that if children have posters of non-Christians on their bedroom walls, demons can come in through there.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Weren't those the Annunaki?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
Well I thought the reptilians from underground were Silirions and the Doctor and Amy settled that matter getting them to go back into stasis for another 1000 years!
On a serious note I need to find ways to respond in pastoral care to this person and deal with their interaction with others in church.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You do? Nearly all the Christians I know believe in stuff no less crazy and in fact much more harmful.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...and that if children have posters of non-Christians on their bedroom walls, demons can come in through there.
When I was about eight, I was made to take down and throw away a poster hanging in my room, on the basis that it might be a source of demonic influence - because it contained a rainbow with only five colours, instead of seven. It was a birthday present and I was very fond of it.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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Darkwing
Shipmate
# 16207
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Posted
I once came across a guy who claimed that all circular objects, such as wreaths, were demonic portals that demons used to enter this world and make your life miserable. Car tire factories must be seething with demonic activity.
Other notable crazies from the same website (please note that I am not making any of this up):
-A guy who claimed that his children had found a cursed feather in the woods. This was obvious because after they brought the feather inside, his family got into an argument, and settled down after he had burned the feather.
-There is a global Satanic baby-eating cult with its headquarters in Satan's secret underwater base*, where they design new cars to lure God's people astray.
-A woman who had a vision of hell involving spear-toting, Pokemon-shaped demons torturing a small child who had been naughty before he died. She also saw the former Pope as well as Michael Jackson, who was surrounded by demons moonwalking around to mock him.
*If you ask me, this sounds really awesome.
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"Science was my most favorite subject, especially the Old Testament!"
- Kenneth, 30 Rock
Posts: 161 | From: NW Oregon, USA | Registered: Feb 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
Well I thought the reptilians from underground were Silirions and the Doctor and Amy settled that matter getting them to go back into stasis for another 1000 years!
On a serious note I need to find ways to respond in pastoral care to this person and deal with their interaction with others in church.
Maybe this person is just looking for some attention. If it seems that this person wants to be part of the church perhaps you could encourage them to take on a suitable role in a church team and feel valued that way. You might quietly ask other members in the team (e.g. the cleaning team, the flower arrangers, or the property team) to cut the individual some slack. They'll soon learn not to take this person's bizarre ideas seriously.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I've come across the nephilim and strong beliefs of Satan too, but not quite the aliens. That one went with a literal belief in the Bible along with some lovely explanations of the genocides in the OT.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
When I was about eight, I was made to take down and throw away a poster hanging in my room, on the basis that it might be a source of demonic influence - because it contained a rainbow with only five colours, instead of seven. It was a birthday present and I was very fond of it.
Why are there seven colours? I've never been able to distinguish 'indigo' from 'violet'. Do most people see a difference or was it only included to make the magic number 7?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Many evos believe the Nephilim are the result of human-demonic congress. David Pawson has used that bizarre interpretation. It's been argued here by the otherwise quite enlightened. All due to entertaining weird apocrypha 'validated' by the apostle Peter.
Having been infected with the meme of postmodernism, the deconstruction of the Satanic to our projection can even be made in the life of Jesus. Which doesn't make it so. Certainly it cannot make it mandatory. Liberalism errs when it does that as in its full embrace of materialism and rationalism generally.
The fact that my vicar is wont to encounter demons doesn't mean he doesn't. But with all of the very broken people I work with (in both senses), including guys with full on hallucinations, I have not yet encountered a personality that has made my hackles rise.
Although ... in another context, that has happened.
As a meta-group they blame the Devil for everything. I can't blame him for anything even if he's there. It would be convenient if he were! On a personal to global level.
Subtle indeed.
I started reading the Starbridge Chronicles and although impressed at the psychology, including Jon Darrow's use of the demonic as metaphor, which is helpful, I am disappointed in him being 'psychic'.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
When I was about eight, I was made to take down and throw away a poster hanging in my room, on the basis that it might be a source of demonic influence - because it contained a rainbow with only five colours, instead of seven. It was a birthday present and I was very fond of it.
Why are there seven colours? I've never been able to distinguish 'indigo' from 'violet'. Do most people see a difference or was it only included to make the magic number 7?
It's arbitrary - we could name 100 or 5. Newton named them and somewhere I read Newton as a Christian saw a theological importance of seven - the seven churches of Revelation and all.
rainbow from wiki
quote:
Newton originally (1672) divided the spectrum into five main colours; red, yellow, green, blue and violet. Later he included orange and indigo, giving seven main colours by analogy to the number of notes in a musical scale
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
When I was about eight, I was made to take down and throw away a poster hanging in my room, on the basis that it might be a source of demonic influence - because it contained a rainbow with only five colours, instead of seven. It was a birthday present and I was very fond of it.
Why are there seven colours? I've never been able to distinguish 'indigo' from 'violet'. Do most people see a difference or was it only included to make the magic number 7?
It's arbitrary - we could name 100 or 5. Newton named them and somewhere I read Newton as a Christian saw a theological importance of seven - the seven churches of Revelation and all.
rainbow from wiki
quote:
Newton originally (1672) divided the spectrum into five main colours; red, yellow, green, blue and violet. Later he included orange and indigo, giving seven main colours by analogy to the number of notes in a musical scale
I have also heard that he had in his mind Pythagorean maths and gnosticism, not to mention the days of the week, which are derived from the seven ancient wandering celestial objects (in the context of Newton, using the word planets would be ironic) Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.
Logically, based on our colour receptors, we should see the primary colours of light, red, green and blue, interspersed with the secondaries, yellow, cyan and magenta. Or, alternatively, an infinity.
The English chemist Wollaston thought he had discovered a small number of gaps between the Newtonian colours - I can't find out immediately the number he thought there were, but he was wrong about the number and the cause, and the lines are now named after the German Fraunhofer.
Spectroscopy
This page shows a couple of examples of spectra - I can't see violet. I can see the five red, yellow, green, cyan, blue, grading into each other. I suppose that if you call cyan blue, then blue could be indigo (except I always think indigo is denim coloured). None of the scientific versions show any violet - but I can see it in rainbows. (Or magenta!) With other stuff beyond it.
Newton let his obsessive side loose on the spectrum. Whether it was Christian or not depends on whether you think he actually was Christian.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I know I can often knock evangelicalism on these boards, but I have to say that the kind of views that have been expressed here strike me as pretty rare across the evangelical constituency as a whole.
You might get the odd loose cannon and fringe nut-case spouting this sort of shite, but on the whole most evangelicals I've come across - whether conservative or charismatic - wouldn't give any credence to these sort of stories at all.
The restorationist fellowship I belonged to for 18 years had plenty of weaknesses for sure, but at least it didn't go in for seeing demons under every carpet or whacky theories about the Nephilim and so on.
I have to say, I'm quite surprised to hear that Shipmates appear to have come across these kind of views in common currency.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Then it's a class and educational issue Gamaliel. The 750 strong charismatic Anglican congo I'm in is rife with it. At one of our Questions? events there was a claque of bourgeois lads whose spokesman was aggressive YEC. The tip of an iceberg. YECists are in to Nephilim. The university professors, doctors and lawyers aren't. Some of the IT crowd are. The marginal are in to everything. Poltergeists, possession, spiritual warfare, box jelly visions of heaven and hell the lot.
Pawson is a patron saint in aging Anglican evangelical circles, although he's aging out now.
The Judeo-Christian-Islamic narrative is one big conspiracy theory after all. Where God meets us whether it's true or not.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
No, I don't think it's a class thing at all. Or if if it is, not in the way we might think ...
In my experience, some of the older, more traditional (and quite working class) Pentecostal groups are far less likely to buy into all the bollocks you're talking about than cosy middle-class CofE charismatics.
Likewise some of the 'new churches' for all the heavy-shepherding and so on. I can honestly say, hand on heart, that this sort of crap was actively discouraged in the charismatic house-churches I was most familiar with. They had no truck at all with this kind of nonsense.
I'm rather shocked and surprised to find it so apparently prevalent where you are. I'd get the hell out of there if it was me.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
None of the scientific versions show any violet - but I can see it in rainbows.
Apparently that's because you can't actually simulate violet light using a red/green/blue computer screen. (I suppose that's because the green receptor picks up blue light a little, whereas it doesn't pick up true violet at all.)
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Jesus believed in demons.
I don't.
Not as separate entities. We all have our 'demons' to deal with, but they are not separate creatures, just part of our psychology/nature/difficulties imo.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
I wouldn't say in common currency - but certainly in real life sat down and explained to me in total certainty and seriousness.
Yet the conversation began with rejection of the prosperity gospel and faith movement after investigating that more. So someone prepared to examine something but then to be convinced of this instead.
Of course these days the web is there with pages to back up any kind of theory and conspiracy plot. If it were all a conspiracy they would be better at silencing all these people and their web pages surely?
Even those who speak of a demonic/angelic spiritual warfare don't get into the detail of nephilim and alien abduction as far as I have experienced them - not even Frank Peretti's books covered that.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
None of the scientific versions show any violet - but I can see it in rainbows.
Apparently that's because you can't actually simulate violet light using a red/green/blue computer screen. (I suppose that's because the green receptor picks up blue light a little, whereas it doesn't pick up true violet at all.)
Except that I was referring to computer images of rainbows - sorry I wasn't clearer. A magenta-ish shade was definitely visible. And surely the eye is operating on something similar - or have I been told the lies to children version of what my cones are up to? (I'm not a tetrachromat, and anyway that would only help up the other end of the spectrum.)
It is possible to simulate various purply shades, though - and while I was looking for them, I found this gem of text, which is probably getting close to the theme of the OP again.
quote:
The color purple relates to the imagination and spirituality. It stimulates the imagination and inspires high ideals. It is an introspective color, allowing us to get in touch with our deeper thoughts.
The difference between violet and purple is that violet appears in the visible light spectrum, or rainbow, whereas purple is simply a mix of red and blue. Violet has the highest vibration in the visible spectrum.
While the violet is not quite as intense as purple, its essence is similar. Generally the names are interchangeable and the meaning of the colors is similar. Both contain the energy and strength of red with the spirituality and integrity of blue. This is the union of body and soul creating a balance between our physical and our spiritual energies.
The guilty page
And a suggestion that it is possible to identify gays because they can distinguish between mauve and taupe. (Which is odd because I thought taupe was slightly pinky-beige, and mauve was pastel bluish-purple.) Have to bring a dead horse in here, don't I?
[ 18. August 2013, 19:34: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darkwing:
I once came across a guy who claimed that all circular objects ... were demonic portals that demons used to enter this world and make your life miserable.
Coins maybe. Certainly I find they disappear from my pockets in a demonic sort of way.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Re-reading that colour tosh, I realsie just how wrong they are about pruple and violet - since violet is a colour of light, it has to be more intense than purple in their definition, since purple would be subtractive through the pigments of red (which has to be a crimson rather than a scarlet, so reflecting some bluey-violet light) and blue (which has to be a blue reflecting some violet) so the purple is what's left after stripping out all the reds and greens from the light hitting the whatever the coloured stuff is.) That's why its gloomy and goth and for mourning. Unless that's what they mean by intense.
Sorry for tangent.
And now I am back at school with the YEC song "Who put the colours in the rainbow?..." as an earworm.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Except that I was referring to computer images of rainbows - sorry I wasn't clearer. A magenta-ish shade was definitely visible. And surely the eye is operating on something similar - or have I been told the lies to children version of what my cones are up to?
As I understand it: (wikipedia here)
Our cones are most sensitive to red, green, and blue. But they're not sensitive only to those wavelengths; they can each detect a range of wavelengths. So if you see pure blue the blue receptor picks that up best, but the green one picks it up as well. While if you see pure violet only the blue receptor picks it up - and that not very well. So your blue receptor sees a light but the green doesn't your brain assumes that's actually violet. But because a computer screen is using only pure blue, green and red, it has no way of creating a light that your blue receptor picks up and your green receptor can't. So in order to create a violet-ish colour it has to use purple (mix of blue and red) instead.
That incidentally is why violet is less intense: it's at the edge of what your blue receptor can pick up so you'd need a lot of it to trigger the receptor as strongly as a colour in the centre of the spectrum.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
@Gamaliel. I'd love to. Where to? There is a silent majority admittedly. I take what you say about working class Pentecostals, of which I have no experience. Thinking back I encountered a couple in Bradford 40 years ago and see what you mean.
@Boogie. Aye He did. And the narratives are extremely powerful. Simple, coherent, believed and therefore believable regardless of how utterly rationalistically unbelievable. That doesn't mean He could transcend His culture beyond the singularly transcendent way that He did. But it doesn't mean that He was wrong.
Or that the accounts are deliberate fables - because that means the fabulists were utter geniuses - or psychiatrist couch sessions, particularly of Jesus projecting His purely internal struggles (hallucinating on starvation) or being a master psychotherapist (to the Gadarene demoniac, Mary Magdalene, the self harming child).
They don't read like it at all. Like unfortunate descriptions in the OT, they read fantastically, terribly true.
That you can't believe that doesn't mean that you are right. That's OK. I believe everything nowadays, superpositioned. I have believed. I can believe. Dunno what that makes me.
We'll see.
You and I are closer regardless because we don't regard it as relevant whether it's true or not. I believe we can find away forward together BECAUSE of such differences.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes - 'where to' can be tricky, Martin. But I can't help but think that there'd be a more 'liberal' - or at least, less pietistic, setting where you might feel happier.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
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Posted
Hmm. Is this the same bunch of 'interesting people' who assert that those who have rhesus negative blood are descendants of aliens or nephilim or some such? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
You are so right Gamaliel, but ... it's not God's plan for us! Although there is an MSC that looks like it might be more radical than we thought.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
These things just show that we mustn't go beyond what the bible says. It's so dangerous.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
Hmm. Is this the same bunch of 'interesting people' who assert that those who have rhesus negative blood are descendants of aliens or nephilim or some such?
really? wow. had no idea I had such interesting ancestors.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Dangerous how Mudfrog?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
These things just show that we mustn't go beyond what the bible says. It's so dangerous.
The nephilim obsession and the core spiritual warfare stuff comes from being overly focussed on what the Bible says, and being very literal!
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
These things just show that we mustn't go beyond what the bible says. It's so dangerous.
The nephilim obsession and the core spiritual warfare stuff comes from being overly focussed on what the Bible says, and being very literal!
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
No, I don't think it's a class thing at all. Or if if it is, not in the way we might think ...
In my experience, some of the older, more traditional (and quite working class) Pentecostal groups are far less likely to buy into all the bollocks you're talking about than cosy middle-class CofE charismatics.
I don't this is a class thing either - not even in the way you think ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I spent the 80s amongst salt of the earth (and very working class) Pentecostals and Charismatics in the East End, and at the time the UFO thing was definitely present at the fringes.
I believe it was an overflow of all of the Hal Lindsay/The World is ending style books - in which this was suggested. In fact, ISTR reading a Nikki Cruz book which speculated that UFO appearances would be used as cover for the Rapture (to give the impresssion that people had been abducted).
To that extent, I'd expect to find these theories most prevalent amongst dispensationalists - and these days it is making a slight come back among middle class churches who missed out on it the first time (SoulSurvivor for instance).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Dangerous in that in adding to what the Bible says through speculation and bringing in other stuff - UFOs and the like - just brings ridicule from others and diverts people from the core message of the Bible.
I mean: reptilians? Greys? Shapeshifters? Demon-possessed Egyptian cats??
I've never heard of half the stuff people have mentioned on here and we all know it's not Biblical!
The problem is - let's use the Nephilim as an example - there are some things in the Bible that are mysterious.
Who knows who these 'sons of God' were: angels? holy people? I've never really looked at this before so I have just this minute turned to my Bible which has study notes at the bottom and it tells me that although 'sons of God' in other places means angels, it can also mean 'godly men' and that 'crossing of creation lines (inter-'species') is difficult and that therefore these sons of God are possibly the sons of Seth and the daughters of men are the women in the line of Cain. Even that is speculation but it's far more rational than angels mating with women - that's very 'comic-book' if you ask me.
Another commentary I have says exactly the same thing!
In the face of uncertainty surely the best line to take is a humble willingness to say 'I don't know' and leave it there. It's not as if the account of the Nephilim has much bearing on the salvation story.
That's why it's dangerous.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
The only danger that I can see is that slightly less crazed Christian beliefs are reinforced in slightly less crazed Christians.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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