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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Modernising Sunday School
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-23754356
Hope the link works.
The Church of Scotland wants to "modernise" its Sunday schools by reducing the amount of colouring-in that the weans do.
Help ma Boab, surely they are 50 years too late. I remember as a sparky 10/11 year old, circa 1967, being bored out of my mind at X Parish Church having to colour in yet another Bible scene black outline picture which (I imagine) came out of Kirk HQ at 121 wherever. My mind was like a sponge, thirsty for knowledge which nobody gave me. No internet in those days, only two black and white TV channels and the local library was a Nissan hut from which you could borrow 2 books a month.
How can the Kirk educate, entertain and inform today's juniors?
I see that the Moderator is saying that the Kirk has been concentrating too much recently on the teenagers to the detriment of the pre teens. I'm surprised by this. Every Kirk seemed to have a YF in my day. Never hear of these now. Do they still exist?
[ 19. August 2013, 17:24: Message edited by: would love to belong ]
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
Ten or eleven seems a bit old to be coloring.
That's approaching confirmation age in Catholic & Anglican traditions, and by that time I'd think Sunday school ought to be well beyond Bible stories and coloring books, and into actual theological content.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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would love to belong
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# 16747
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Ten or eleven seems a bit old to be coloring.
That's approaching confirmation age in Catholic & Anglican traditions, and by that time I'd think Sunday school ought to be well beyond Bible stories and coloring books, and into actual theological content.
I agree, Father.
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Avila
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# 15541
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Posted
I love working with the Godly Play materials and concept, although not tied to the scripts they provide. Basically that is because it is what I would have flourished on as a 'wondering' child.
Rather than tell the story as a closed package it invites all listeners to stop and wonder, starting with what the coloured felt may be, gentle warming up, and then into how the story makes us think and wonder.
One memorable session with the Good Samaritan parable we ended up discussing school bullying which was a critical issue for one of the children present - triggered by wondering about those who might be expected to help but didn't.
We need to respect the spirituality and theological insights of children rather than just see them as empty vessels to be filled with Bible stories without space to think and respond.
(I have also used Godly Play materials for adult groups who have also valued it as a tool for actually very deep conversation)
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Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I think there is a real problem in some Sunday Schools. Very often IMO the kids are "babied" rather than "stretched". Moreover they are often taught Bible stories which seem to relate little to their real lives. Clearly we do want to impart Bible knowledge (and in a coherent way) but our final aim is not merely didactic: we are trying to instil faith and teach discipleship, albeit at a "childish" level.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Another recommendation for Godly Play. Our vestry group uses it and, thanks to imaginative use of the materials and also a very talented Sunday School teacher, they are adapted to suit all ages from 3 up to about 12, with the older ones helping the younger ones as well. Even over 12s can stay and become vestry group assistants if they wish, although most prefer to be acolytes.
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Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
The trouble is that most SS teachers are just people out of the pews who have little idea themselves what to do, let alone how to get the children involved. So they assume busy work will do.
Probably how those adults got through school, too: just do whatever and let the world flow along.
Sunday School is as much a school as the one down the road where all the kids go. SS should be treated seriously as part of "growing the church", not just being a convenient place to dump the noisies while the adults get their morning fix of ritual.
Imagine the fuss if the church decided to do adult SS every second week (no liturgy), with people expected to learn something! But, just as the kids enjoy stuff they are taken to if they get something out of it, so too for the adults. Might make church something one wants to come to.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
One memorable session with the Good Samaritan parable we ended up discussing school bullying which was a critical issue for one of the children present - triggered by wondering about those who might be expected to help but didn't.
We need to respect the spirituality and theological insights of children rather than just see them as empty vessels to be filled with Bible stories without space to think and respond.
Brilliant! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
Our church has moved to a mostly at-home format for children's religious education -- this came at the request of parents, actually, who told us that the traditional ways of doing Sunday School simply don't work for them. Spending over two hours in church every Sunday has been a barrier for a lot of families -- many of whose adults are juggling multiple jobs and weekend shifts to make ends meet.
Every month our parents receive an education packet containing Scripture lessons, devotional writings, prayers and activities that families can do together. About once a month we have a Saturday family service aimed at Sunday School parents and kids, where the kids are invited to help lead the service.
People frustrated by poor attendance at Sunday School these days should remember that it is a fairly recent innovation, originally created to teach reading and social skills to underprivileged children. The traditional viewpoint regarding children's religious formation is that that is primarily the province of parents. Luther's Small Catechism, for instance, was originally intended for use by parents, not special teachers. Maybe Sunday School, at least in some places, is an institution that once had a legitimate purpose but that simply doesn't work any longer, at least as it's usually done.
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Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Imagine the fuss if the church decided to do adult SS every second week (no liturgy), with people expected to learn something! But, just as the kids enjoy stuff they are taken to if they get something out of it, so too for the adults. Might make church something one wants to come to.
Learning something at church, gosh fancy that! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) May it be so...
As for the children, I absolutely agree that it's not just a case of providing somewhere for the kids to go while the adults get on with their stuff. We're supposed to be sharing our faith with the children and demonstrating to them that Christ is real, and alive in us. That takes godly character on the part of the children's workers, talent, training, and ideally some resources too.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
When I was a kid our church had national Sunday school exams. Every year from about the age f seven I had to spend three Saturday mornings in the church hall doing a scripture, catechism and essay exam. We also had psalmody exams to test how well we knew psalm tunes.
I soon realised that you had to lie about how often you sat the exams because if you sat it for the first time you got a crap book but after that you got book tokens which you could spend on books you actually wanted. That was unless you did too well and ended up top of the results table when you got a crappy medal. Who wants a crappy medal.
It ended up meaning that religion turned into a subject to study like any other and certainly I was put off by it. More colouring in please
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I loathed Sunday School and much preferred to go to a proper church service. I'm sure that many children dislike the dumbing down of liturgy as much as I did. Maybe we should allow children to participate fully in the normal church service rather than be sent to Sunday School if they so desire.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
One of our issues is that we only have half an hour.
The kids are in the main service for the first hymn / children's address / second hymn, then they go through to the hall for Sunday School for the rest of the service. So our Sunday School only last for about 30 mins.
We have a Bible story, memory verse (involving some form of activity) and then "craft" but the craft ends up being colouring-in, or assembling some very simple craft that has been pre-prepared, for the under-eights, or word puzzles for the 8-12s. We do chat about the Bible story during the colouring in etc.
Part of our problem, too, is difference in ability. We have creche in one room for the under 4s, then we have the juniors 4-8 in another room, so we've got a spectrum from non-readers to fluent readers amongst that group. The 8-12s are in a 3rd room.
As child protection means we need 2 adults per room, we're committing 6 adults each Sunday to this.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by bib:
quote:
Maybe we should allow children to participate fully in the normal church service rather than be sent to Sunday School if they so desire.
bib, the report has come from the Church of Scotland. Children are welcome to "participate fully in the normal church service rather than be sent to Sunday School" but this does mean sitting through a 20 minute sermon. "Participation" mostly means "shut up and listen" as this is what the adults do!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Originally posted by bib:
quote:
Maybe we should allow children to participate fully in the normal church service rather than be sent to Sunday School if they so desire.
bib, the report has come from the Church of Scotland. Children are welcome to "participate fully in the normal church service rather than be sent to Sunday School" but this does mean sitting through a 20 minute sermon. "Participation" mostly means "shut up and listen" as this is what the adults do!
Believe it or not that is exactly what happened up to the 1950s.
Sunday School was an afternoon activity, so children who came to worship sat through the service.
No it is a genie we can not easily put back in the bottle but it never the less was the case. The few churches that still do it actually find they do not loose children in their teens.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
We have succesful lunchtime Scripture Union groups at primary and secondary school. The children who go to those mostly don't go to Sunday School, though. So we're doing something right, but not on a Sunday morning.
Jengie, quote:
The few churches that still do it actually find they do not loose children in their teens.
we are not losing our teens completely. They go to Youth Group, they go to lunchtime SU, they volunteer for the creche rota, but they don't go to church!
[ 20. August 2013, 09:03: Message edited by: North East Quine ]
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Indeed Jengie. And where are most of those children who sat through the service bored out of their tiny minds now? They are represented by the empty pews up and down the country.
I therefore have to dispute your final paragraph. Everyone is losing the children in their teens - some more, some less. They'd certainly have lost mine if I'd continued to drag them there.
It can work - but IME only if you dramatically re-envisage what the "normal adult service" actually is.
[ 20. August 2013, 09:01: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
A Kirk I belonged to had a separate building just beside it where the children always belonged to be taught on Sundays when their parents were in the Kirk. We had many many children, with the young ones during the service and teenagers belonging there, after the Kirk service. There wasn't anything we had to wear, and we also had a piano which taught the little ones to sing hymns. I was chosen by the minister who got me to teach when I was 13. I had eight 5 yearolds then in my section. We always got helped and trained by the woman in charge of the Sunday School. We always had a bit of the Bible read to them and explained. they did some drawing aboot that.
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Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Karl,
quote:
Everyone is losing the children in their teens - some more, some less.
we are not losing our teens from wider church activities at all. Just from the actual Sunday services.
Our teens are a brilliant group of cheerful and obliging helpers on many occasions, they just don't go to church itself!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Our teens are a brilliant group of cheerful and obliging helpers on many occasions, they just don't go to church itself!
Just a thought - do you consider it to be a problem that your teens don't attend the main Sunday service? What about their parents and the church leadership?
I ask because I'm not sure it is a problem, really. If the young people, through the things they are taking part in, are mixing with more mature Christians, getting opportunities to talk about their faith / beliefs and to contribute to the church community, just generally learning more about Christ and following him, then maybe it's not such a worry that they aren't, on the whole, going to the main Sunday gathering.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed Jengie. And where are most of those children who sat through the service bored out of their tiny minds now? They are represented by the empty pews up and down the country.
Actually oddly enough still in the pews. They are our seventy and eighty year olds!
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed Jengie. And where are most of those children who sat through the service bored out of their tiny minds now? They are represented by the empty pews up and down the country.
Actually oddly enough still in the pews. They are our seventy and eighty year olds!
Jengie
All of them? Because I know a lot of people who were dragged to church in the 50s who won't go near one now.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Hymn sandwiches barely work on adults, let alone children. Hymn-Eucharist club sandwiches work with certain groups with strong cultural ties to their churches (ie Catholics and Orthodox) but not much good for everyone else (but possibly barely barely better than hymn sandwiches due to shorter sermons). What, then, DOES work? I struggle to believe that the charismatic pop concert with half-time vacous pep-talk works in the long term.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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would love to belong
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# 16747
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Posted
NEQ
I have knowledge of several "well-heeled suburbia" C of S congregations and none have a Youth Fellowship. In my teenage years (early 70s), there were 3 church YFs in my small burgh (population 10,000 or so back then). Today, none of these 3 C of S's has a YF. Back in the 70s, the church YF was a social hub for teenagers (at least, for those who weren't drinking at the local town cross). What is the position today? As far as I can see, the local C of S have nothing for the teenagers. That's not to say that they're not participating in SU at school or a Crusaders group or something similar. I wonder if modern rules about supervision etc have affected things. In my day, the YF was led by 17 and 18 year old members, essentially without "adult" supervision. Could we get back to that?
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
To clarify, when I say "we" I'm referring to my own parish church, rather than speaking for the whole of the C of S!
wouldlovetobelong, my church has a weekly evening Youth Club for teens, which includes a Bible study. It has about a dozen on an average evening with a few more turning up for special events. I believe it can pull in up to 30. On an average Sunday we have just over 100 in the pews, so although 12 doesn't sound a lot, it compares well to the Sunday morning service. In some ways it follows the pattern of Sunday services - Remembrance Sunday will be packed with over 300 people, so "special events" pulling in extra teens mirrors the way that "special events" pull in extra congregants.
Various of the teens are also involved in creche rota / music / collection rota / AV. They are an asset to the church.
South Coast Kevin
quote:
Just a thought - do you consider it to be a problem that your teens don't attend the main Sunday service? What about their parents and the church leadership?
I can't speak for the church leadership, but I think that there's general concern about the preponderance of elderly in an average service. I count as one of the younger members, and I'm about to turn 50. If the teens aren't going now, then will they ever go? But our 20 somethings aren't going either, nor are our 30 somethings.
If Sunday School was better, that might pull in their 30-something parents, too? If Sunday School is regarded as mind-numbing colouring-in, and the kids aren't happy, then that reduces the number of 30-somethings, too.
I think there are bigger issues, but in identifying Sunday School, the moderator may have identified one which can be tackled.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The teenagers prefer to group together rather than be in an all-age church in their twos and threes. So they find out at school which church has the biggest and liveliest youth group (with the most chance of meeting the opposite sex as much as for religious reasons, I suspect) and they all go there. Perhaps it's better for churches to jointly support the one large ecumenical youth group than all individually try to struggle on with their own programme.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Hymn sandwiches barely work on adults, let alone children. Hymn-Eucharist club sandwiches work with certain groups with strong cultural ties to their churches (ie Catholics and Orthodox) but not much good for everyone else (but possibly barely barely better than hymn sandwiches due to shorter sermons). What, then, DOES work? I struggle to believe that the charismatic pop concert with half-time vacous pep-talk works in the long term.
The problem is that we so often think these are the only options. They're not.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Something to throw into the mix. Mike Yaconelli was one of the founders of "Youth Ministry", a group which now promotes industrial-scale youth work in churches, a process that appeals to the shopping-mall mentality, but about which he was also a bit doubtful.
So he wrote, among other things, "A Better Idea than Youth Ministry"
I note that this article has been taken off Youth Ministry's site, which indicates that the management have some problems with it (some of his other stuff is still on the site) but it still makes sense to me.
If you can get past the idea of setting the kids apart, you might find that you have actually built a community, a rather strange idea that is floating out there in Never-Never Land, trying to get into view.
Why does church have to be a place where dull, repetitive stuff is the total of what it does?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Of to read, HB. I generally like Mr Yaconelli's muse; he was taken from us far too soon.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Felafool
Shipmate
# 270
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Posted
As LutheranChick pointed out, Sunday School originated as a way to offer basic education and skills to underprivileged children. Today it is a far cry from that first vision and in many cases is more like a child-minding service.
If it is to continue to exist and be an effective way of 'making disciples who make a difference', it needs a drastic overhaul, starting with a basic question like: How can we serve our community's young people?
Just this one question will start a whole range of possibilities. For a start, the name Sunday School might disappear, and the programme offered and resources required will probably be radically different.
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Posts: 265 | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I'm taken by this bit:
quote:
St Mike of Yaconelli wrote:
They can still have a youth program and a youth worker, but the real youth ministry would happen when all of the adults decided to connect with all of the kids and do church together.
Yes. We don't have specific youth work either. But we ensure that everyone is part of our Family Gathering (as it is called). That doesn't mean giving them an incense boat or a cross to be bored with; it means ensuring that the whole service is for everyone.
And it means accepting that children are children. The scowls, the tutting, the dark looks - children are not stupid and they know "this isn't really for you; you're here under sufferance" when they experience it.
[ 20. August 2013, 10:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
My 12 year old always sits through a full service (we go to a NFI church so chari worship with 40 min sermon) as we as a family attend the first service and the youth group meets during the second service. He has a kindle so he can participate as and when he wants. We find he reads during the worship but often puts his kindle down to listen to the sermon. I think older children are often underestimated in their abilities and are far more likely to be put off by patronising children's work. He enjoys the youth group but I think he would be just as happy attending normal services with us.
However, my 9 year old does enjoy Sunday School, especially the craft element as is his nature. But being in a large church does help as he is also with children his own age. I think he would find it much harder in a more mixed age group.
In my own experience, I think Sunday School can have a lasting affect on a child's perception of church. I only attended Sunday School a couple of times as a child and found it very upsetting as I was separated from my partially sighted twin because they thought he would be better with a much younger group. Not only was this an insult to his intelligence but he also normally relied on me as a guide. Our reaction was so vocal that my parents stopped taking us (why a simple solution to the problem wasn't found I don't know).
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm taken by this bit:
quote:
St Mike of Yaconelli wrote:
They can still have a youth program and a youth worker, but the real youth ministry would happen when all of the adults decided to connect with all of the kids and do church together.
Yes. We don't have specific youth work either. But we ensure that everyone is part of our Family Gathering (as it is called). That doesn't mean giving them an incense boat or a cross to be bored with; it means ensuring that the whole service is for everyone.
And it means accepting that children are children. The scowls, the tutting, the dark looks - children are not stupid and they know "this isn't really for you; you're here under sufferance" when they experience it.
I thoroughly agree.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed Jengie. And where are most of those children who sat through the service bored out of their tiny minds now? They are represented by the empty pews up and down the country.
Actually oddly enough still in the pews. They are our seventy and eighty year olds!
Jengie
All of them? Because I know a lot of people who were dragged to church in the 50s who won't go near one now.
Well the fifties is when the new ideas came in so...
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
We have an ecumenical youth group locally - run across all but the RC churches in town. The 7-11 group is doing well, the 11 and over .. is not.
My daughter wanted to be in services, but we had youth leaders who were sure that no child could want to sit through the boring church services*. My daughter found the various youth groups insulting and dumbed down. She actually liked the sermons, and if she did get bored there were service books, stained glass windows and church decorations to decipher (and ask about during the next hymn). She got to pick up a certain amount of Latin that way.
It didn't help that we arrived at this church when she was 9 or 10 and had already been attending the main service for a while in churches when there was nothing on offer, so she was most aggrieved to be dragged out to listen to what she found very childish theology. She dropped out of church then because she wasn't allowed to stay in the service. The yoof leaders would come and find her in the service, even when she'd chosen to sit away from the children who were going to go out.
But I keep being told that I have an unusual daughter and that it's bizarre that we both preferred the Brompton Oratory full Latin mass to the HTB Sunday service the day we did both.
We do need to allow children to attend the service and not remove them from being an acolyte or in the choir if that is the choice they've made.
* Personally, I have questions about youth leaders running youth work who find the church services boring. That makes me wonder how they are teaching children to become a part of that church.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Indeed Jengie. And where are most of those children who sat through the service bored out of their tiny minds now? They are represented by the empty pews up and down the country.
Actually oddly enough still in the pews. They are our seventy and eighty year olds!
Jengie
All of them? Because I know a lot of people who were dragged to church in the 50s who won't go near one now.
Well the fifties is when the new ideas came in so...
Jengie
No, the people I'm thinking of had to sit in the main service, BCP, nothing "new". One of them, my mother, is the reason I grew up not attending church. She refused to subject her children to the mind-numbing boredom she'd experienced. She doesn't go now, either.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Oh yes, I remember self-styled youth workers with huge chips on their shoulders, they were around in the 1970s, too. They kept telling teenagers that their own churches were 'dead' and that they should come and join the exciting things God was doing in some other place instead. We came under quite a lot of pressure - I guess those youth workers found it easier to convert people who were already churchgoers than to go out into the highways and byways to find unchurched youth to convert instead.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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would love to belong
Shipmate
# 16747
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Posted
This has turned into a very wide-ranging and, to me, interesting look at different approaches in different denominations/traditions. Thanks to all contributors. I started with a very local situation, never imagined I would learn so much ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 331 | From: Lost and confused | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
]No, the people I'm thinking of had to sit in the main service, BCP, nothing "new". One of them, my mother, is the reason I grew up not attending church. She refused to subject her children to the mind-numbing boredom she'd experienced. She doesn't go now, either. [/QB]
Yeh but set that against my father, also kept in for services and sat through longer sermons and was bored. He only became a minister!
Yes that is anecdote and so is yours. The numbers still play in my favour.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
It doesn't need to be a choice between tedious colouring busywork and formal tested academic learning (what chive describes sounds horrendous!)
My husband teaches the 9-11 year olds at our church, and from what I gather, it's a bit like a housegroup meeting: they look at a Bible passage, they have a discussion which begins with questions prepared by the leader but can branch off into whatever the kids feel like talking about (he often has to field weighty questions about free will, the origin of evil, hell, etc), then they try to apply it to their lives, and pray for each other.
I help with the 2-4 year olds. For that age group, it is generally just a simple Bible story and a craft (although we try to vary the craft so it's not just colouring - often there's sticking or something involving food), and then they get free time to play with toys. It's important that they see the session as something enjoyable, I think. My 3-year-old enjoys it.
I don't know much about the classes for children in between those age groups, but I assume there's a gradual progression from story-and-craft to housegroup-style discussion.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Our church is beginning to look again at the question of children in church (of which, Sunday School is a small part). We currently have two young children (our two at 4 & 7) plus 4-5 older children (13-17) who attend occasionally. We had a baptism earlier in the year, and the older sister of that babe is also likely to start coming soon (she's 3), with her parents (OK, grandparents who will bring her) expecting a Sunday School. So, not really enough children for a really well organised, formal Sunday School with different age groups. But, a fair number of children for a congregation where 20 people is a good turn out. And, of course, with a very small congregation there aren't the people to lead Sunday School anyway.
At present our two sit in through the whole service, at a side table where they can see what's happening but also have colouring/quiz sheets relevant to the theme of the service. The minister also prints out her sermon and prayers, which our son then reads through during the service (if he wants to). Our daughter would happily go out to Sunday School, our son has expressed a preference to stay in the service. Of the most regular occasional attenders, the youngest would like Sunday School (but something more appropriate than colouring and stickering) and the oldest wants to stay in church. All the children want to be involved a bit in the service if they're there; but there are issues in the church with some members unhappy about children helping with distributing Communion or uplifting the offering.
It's a tricky situation, but one that basically demands we find an alternative to traditional Sunday School while still providing something for children and adults alike. We're really just starting the process, I don't know where it's going. But, I'm reading with interest for anything that might be useful on Sunday.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I think that one of the problems with Sunday School is that often the teachers are untrained, possibly not exactly willing volunteers. I know what a terrible SS teacher I was as a teenager which I was persuaded to attempt even though I was given no assistance. Teachers need to be as highly trained as classroom teachers, otherwise we are short changing our children. I know what poor Sunday School teachers I experienced as a child and in contrast how exciting I found church, particularly Choral Mattins. If children find church boring, then maybe that particular church needs to look at making the services more interesting for all.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
One church I attended had a youth leader whose approach was one of:
"You're staying in church, and not coming out to the youth church? But you're under 25. HOW DARE YOU!!!".
I've gotten that in the two churches I've attended. I prefer to go to church in the morning because I spend Sunday evenings cooking for the week ahead. But because I'm under 30, I've had both church leadership and other members ask "Shouldn't you be attending the evening service?" It comes across like if I'm not middle aged or elderly, I shouldn't be at the morning service.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I think sometimes a church can be boring for young children without being boring for others. For instance, my chosen church--that I would be at much more often if my daughter didn't strongly dislike it--follows a very formal liturgy that is all written. Now many of us have memorized much of it, but since the words are hard, most smart and well-educated five year olds* can neither read the words (and understand them) nor memorize all the meanings of all of them. And we have tried things like letting her carry things, but as Karl says getting to carry something into church and then having to sit still for an hour isn't many children's idea of fun.
In this case my kids are also the only children, so Sunday school is by needs in-church. I may as well just keep them home as go to the basement--missing service--every week teaching them at church. I doubt it's a fixable problem though.
*My daughter's age, since she is my oldest, I don't know nearly as much about ages older!
[ 20. August 2013, 14:14: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
]No, the people I'm thinking of had to sit in the main service, BCP, nothing "new". One of them, my mother, is the reason I grew up not attending church. She refused to subject her children to the mind-numbing boredom she'd experienced. She doesn't go now, either.
Yeh but set that against my father, also kept in for services and sat through longer sermons and was bored. He only became a minister!
Yes that is anecdote and so is yours. The numbers still play in my favour.
Jengie [/QB]
Do they though? What proportion of children were dragged to church in the 50s? What proportion of them are still attending now? The generation on generation drop in attendance makes me think the numbers may be in my favour. What was it someone quoted (John Holding?) the other week - something like 10% of children raised in the church keep coming?
Perhaps more stay on when they attend the main service, perhaps they don't. Point is that many are put off for life.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I think sometimes a church can be boring for young children without being boring for others. For instance, my chosen church--that I would be at much more often if my daughter didn't strongly dislike it--follows a very formal liturgy that is all written. Now many of us have memorized much of it, but since the words are hard, most smart and well-educated five year olds* can neither read the words (and understand them) nor memorize all the meanings of all of them. And we have tried things like letting her carry things, but as Karl says getting to carry something into church and then having to sit still for an hour isn't many children's idea of fun.
In this case my kids are also the only children, so Sunday school is by needs in-church. I may as well just keep them home as go to the basement--missing service--every week teaching them at church. I doubt it's a fixable problem though.
*My daughter's age, since she is my oldest, I don't know nearly as much about ages older!
Exactly the position we were finding ourselves in last Autumn - there had ceased to be any point us attending, and the children were certainly not getting any benefit from it.
It is fixable, but may require radically changing how services are done. For example, as you say, the words are hard, but you dare, dare I say, use an "easier" liturgy, and the forces of boredom are down on you like a ton of bricks screaming "Dumbing down! Dumbing down!" like you're suggesting taking the statue of Our Lady and burning it in a Whicker Man.
[ 20. August 2013, 14:40: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Karl, I don't know the answer, but the logical end to what you and Gwai are saying is that all church services and church buildings have to be suitable for children of all ages. Which assumes pitching services at toddler level. Is that really where we want to go?
There are a couple of problems immediately - firstly all-age services are very difficult to do well, and the second is that the all-age family services are often the most loathed and avoided amongst regular church goers.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Karl, I don't know the answer, but the logical end to what you and Gwai are saying is that all church services and church buildings have to be suitable for children of all ages. Which assumes pitching services at toddler level. Is that really where we want to go?
The first sentence, quite right and yes. The second doesn't actually follow. It's possible to pitch at multiple levels simultaneously - think of The Simpsons - kids watch it happily at a very young age but adults find jokes and references which are aimed at them as well.
This is part of what I mean by dramatically re-imagining what we do on Sundays.
quote:
There are a couple of problems immediately - firstly all-age services are very difficult to do well, and the second is that the all-age family services are often the most loathed and avoided amongst regular church goers.
Indeed they are. Which is why we don't do them. Because people say "all-age", but they mean "children's". We've had this before; we find that the leadership starts talking about the "children's service" even after hours and hours of careful explanation that "all-age" =/= "children's". So it's not surprising that it's got a bad name. Years ago the Church-English Dictionary defined it as "Worship that no age enjoys very much."
Best to forget the term.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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