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Originally posted by Chorister:
Something I've noticed with theologians, shipmates and people I've known in real life is that, once they have started down the road of becoming more liberal in their understanding of faith, the process often keeps right on going, without halting at any stage, so that they go right on through Christianity and out the other side, where they can end up with no faith at all.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Nevertheless, it's clear that at some stage the process of theological liberalisation in the life of individuals, churches and whole denominations regularly entails a loss of spiritual vitality and sometimes the wholesale loss of faith.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Nevertheless, it's clear that at some stage the process of theological liberalisation in the life of individuals, churches and whole denominations regularly entails a loss of spiritual vitality and sometimes the wholesale loss of faith.

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Unsubstantiated assertion -- care to back it up?

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Originally posted by Chorister:
Something I've noticed with theologians, shipmates and people I've known in real life is that, once they have started down the road of becoming more liberal in their understanding of faith, the process often keeps right on going, without halting at any stage, so that they go right on through Christianity and out the other side, where they can end up with no faith at all.

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BTW the AdChoices to the right came up with "Atheist Lover Dating" when I downloaded this page. Is someone stalking me?

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Nevertheless, it's clear that at some stage the process of theological liberalisation in the life of individuals, churches and whole denominations regularly entails a loss of spiritual vitality and sometimes the wholesale loss of faith.

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Unsubstantiated assertion -- care to back it up?

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Originally posted by chorister
...once they have started down the road of becoming more liberal in their understanding of faith...

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Originally posted by Chorister:
Something I've noticed with theologians, shipmates and people I've known in real life is that, once they have started down the road of becoming more liberal in their understanding of faith, the process often keeps right on going, without halting at any stage, so that they go right on through Christianity and out the other side, where they can end up with no faith at all.

I am sometimes rather concerned that I'm on the same journey myself, but certainly don't want to travel the whole distance. But, once you start, is it possible to stop? And if so, how and where?

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Of course its possible to stop, you just need to choose where. Anything can be taken to extremes and liberalism, while excellent in many ways, if taken too far, IMO can lead to a sort of washed out pan-spirituality that has little to do with orthodox Christianity. The same as if you go too far down any road, it leads to either stagnation or entropy. Indeed too far the other way down the road of conservatism can lead to stagnation of God's spirit and a focus on the forms of religion rather than the living spirit of faith.

For me, I have come a long way since the YEC, insular church of my childhood. I am discovering my own Christian faith and where on the spectrum of conservative/liberal it lies. It is often shifting, but I try not to let it get too far one way or the other.

I find this constant attempt to find a middle-ground easier by judging what Christian input I expose myself to. SoF is generally more liberal than I would call myself, while my Church is slightly more conservative. Thus both serve to counter and inform the other in my faith.

A few years ago I considered leaving my Church to find a more liberal one, more in touch with where I thought my faith was, or was heading. Yet I was brought up short when, on looking into local churches and seeing one that seemed attractive in its embrace of women's ministry and liberal attitudes, I noticed that they were great fans of, and proponents of Spong. On reading a bit about him I quickly realised this way led away from Jesus rather than to Him and I chose to stay where I was. I considered it more important to be in a church that taught Christ crucified than in a church with women ministry, which I'd like but is only of secondary importance to my faith.

So yes, it is possible to stop the slide along the spectrum, but you have to create your own anchors, your own lines where you say, 'no further', so once you feel you're crossing them you know you need to correct yourself, either by changing church, or stopping reading SoF for a while . For me, the historical reality of Jesus is one of those fundamental lines in the sand. You need to decide what yours is.

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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Originally posted by Chorister:
Something I've noticed with theologians, shipmates and people I've known in real life is that, once they have started down the road of becoming more liberal in their understanding of faith, the process often keeps right on going, without halting at any stage, so that they go right on through Christianity and out the other side, where they can end up with no faith at all.

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I am sometimes rather concerned that I'm on the same journey myself, but certainly don't want to travel the whole distance.

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Is that because you think you will lose the support of something? In my opinion , all support we humans have is from other humans. You could perhaps bear in mind that it is entirely personal faith that enables you to imagine the God/god/s you believe in has an existence, but, as yu know, for me all such God/god/s are human creations. As soon as I took the step away from thinking the support actually existed, then I knew I was stronger and complete, and if you can name any form of spirituality that I, as an atheist, am incapable of knowing, feeling or experiencing (especially since I used to 'know' that God was), I would be interested to hear!

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But, once you start, is it possible to stop? And if so, how and where?

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Originally posted by Chorister:
What Croesos picks up on, I think, is that Liberalism means something quite different in other countries, most notably as a political movement. To make it clear, I'm talking about Liberal Christianity / Liberal Theology as a personal approach to faith, not Politics.

While I'm travelling through, perhaps I could derive some hope from meeting people like quetzalcoatl travelling the other way? That would be quite reassuring.

And although Enoch would not describe himself as a Liberal, I can identify with much of what he's saying. I think we're on the same road bro.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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This shows a rather low view of the agency of the Holy Spirit.

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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.

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Originally posted by Crœsos:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Nevertheless, it's clear that at some stage the process of theological liberalisation in the life of individuals, churches and whole denominations regularly entails a loss of spiritual vitality and sometimes the wholesale loss of faith.

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Unsubstantiated assertion -- care to back it up?

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I'm not even sure how you'd assess something like "spiritual vitality" or know the state of someone else's faith. Statements like that are almost always code for "how much do they agree with my theology".

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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This shows a rather low view of the agency of the Holy Spirit.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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This shows a rather low view of the agency of the Holy Spirit.

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Eh? In other words, what the hell you're on about? I've seen it happen. The result is atheism or somekind of new ageism.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
When I wanted to understand what was happening around me I started to read, and found that according to the sociologists and social historians Methodism represents a textbook example of how vigorous, growing church movements become denominations, then the spiritual culture subtly changes, and then gradually decline sets in.

'A loss of spiritual vitality' was my shorthand term for the problematic outcomes that seem to occur at some point following these subtle processes of liberalisation. Now, these processes may well have some good outcomes too; most Christians today have benefited from them. Nothing's straightforward.

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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This shows a rather low view of the agency of the Holy Spirit.

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Eh? In other words, what the hell you're on about? I've seen it happen. The result is atheism or somekind of new ageism.

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You've seen it happen EVERY TIME? You made a universal claim. Now you're backing off of it. Do you admit you overclaimed in the first place?

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
What Croesos picks up on, I think, is that Liberalism means something quite different in other countries, most notably as a political movement. To make it clear, I'm talking about Liberal Christianity / Liberal Theology as a personal approach to faith, not Politics.

While I'm travelling through, perhaps I could derive some hope from meeting people like quetzalcoatl travelling the other way? That would be quite reassuring.

And although Enoch would not describe himself as a Liberal, I can identify with much of what he's saying. I think we're on the same road bro.

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Well, somebody who influenced me quite a lot was a Catholic priest I was friendly with, who had a major personal and faith crisis, left the priesthood, got married, and renounced his faith.

Anyway, years later, he trained as a Jungian analyst, and lightbulb moment! realized he could come back to his faith in a different way, less conservatively, more symbolically, blah blah blah. So there he is trotting off to Mass every Sunday with his missus, new-minted, fresh-faced. Cor blimey, guv, wudju bleeve it. Well, yes.

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Originally posted by malik3000:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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This shows a rather low view of the agency of the Holy Spirit.

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If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

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Originally posted by mousethief:
So you seem to be saying that if you stay on the tightrope until you fall off, then you'll fall off. Or are you saying there is a specific amount of time? Everybody who is on the tightrope for four years will definitely fall off? Have there never been any people who were on the tightrope for a time then came back to faith? What are you saying that's not a tautology? And is there some way we could test it to see if it's true or not, or is it completely unfalsifiable?

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
When you're on the edge of apostasy for long enough, as if on a tightrope, you're bound to fall off sooner or later. It's just a matter of time, because you eventually become too tired to keep your balance. The disharmony between mind and heart becomes too hard to bear and you lose your feet.

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It's strange, but ISTM your phrase that I've italicised applies much more clearly to people towards the other end of the Christian theological spectrum; people who, for example, hold together in their minds the two (IMO) contradictory beliefs that God both epitomises love and cannot invite us into his presence without someone else taking the punishment that ought to fall on us.

Not people like Chorister who are on a journey of faith that is leading them to re-examine their beliefs and reject some of them.

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