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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sure I can halt the process - can't I?
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I suppose if you are aware you're teetering on the edge, you might have time to attach a harness, or a bungee jump rope so that the fall might not be terminal?
If a person is aware of teetering on some kind of edge in relation to faith, then there are all sorts of options open to them. They could pray, seek advice from a spiritual director, go on retreat, take a holiday, explore a more liberal or a more conservative expression of faith to see whether it resonates with them, or choose to step back from the edge. They could read the Dark Night of the Soul, or the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. They could pray a Novena, or go out for a pizza, or indeed do both.
Falling off is by no means inevitable.
[ 24. August 2013, 09:11: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It's a bit of an odd discussion, in any case, as it seems to suggest that I am separate from the process. Is this the case?
I would be inclined to say that I am the process. If I am falling off the cliff of faith, or whatever metaphor is used, then indeed, I am falling off the cliff of faith.
I suppose we can detach ourselves from this maybe, and feel regret, panic, or even that we don't want to be involved in this process.
But in that case, the process has changed, and I am in the process of not wanting to fall off, or regretting ever having got here.
Can you stop being yourself?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I suppose if you are aware you're teetering on the edge, you might have time to attach a harness, or a bungee jump rope so that the fall might not be terminal?
Yes, or someone may offer you a hand.
Yes , like that which was offered Peter when he tried to walk on water and started to sink .
I suppose there is a problem when we come to feel our faith stands for absolutely nothing in terms of the established order where liberalism is concerned .
Thing is I'm not sure if me saying 'I don't give a flying fuck about what other people do or don't do' is necessarily the death knell for my faith . Believing that God Himself doesn't give a FF about what *I* do or don't do probably is .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I am sometimes rather concerned that I'm on the same journey myself, but certainly don't want to travel the whole distance. But, once you start, is it possible to stop? And if so, how and where?
I would simply ask by what means you are travelling now. It is not the case that you can use these means to take you to some favourite spot and then let go of them. For if you knew what that favourite spot would have to be, then you could go to that spot right now - and why would you become more able to determine such an endpoint in future than you are now? You will always just choose your means, because they are what is concrete and they seem good. What will be the argument against using these means further then that would not apply to them now?
If you are worried about where you are travelling, then you are in truth worried about some of the means of travel that you are using. Take a good hard look at them. If they still seem OK, then there's nothing to worry about. If not, then change them, and travel to some other place in consequence.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Now that, after the third time of reading, is most wise.
How should one judge ones means? By their fruits? Or should they seem good in themselves some other way? And how does one measure their concreteness?
Open, not rhetorical questions.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's a bit of an odd discussion, in any case, as it seems to suggest that I am separate from the process. Is this the case?
No, you are not separate from the process, but you are also not a puppet. You have choices, and those choices can determine what happens in your spiritual journey.
quote:
I would be inclined to say that I am the process. If I am falling off the cliff of faith, or whatever metaphor is used, then indeed, I am falling off the cliff of faith.
If you are falling, then you are indeed falling. But it may not be the cliff of faith that you are falling from; it may be the cliff of faith in an inadequate God, or of one particular expression of faith. Some cliffs don't lead anywhere at all, and the only choice we have is to scramble down them somehow, to find a better path.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
I suppose we can detach ourselves from this maybe, and feel regret, panic, or even that we don't want to be involved in this process.
But in that case, the process has changed, and I am in the process of not wanting to fall off, or regretting ever having got here.
Can you stop being yourself?
In my case, yes, but that is another story.
All of us can only be who we are at this point. But we can make choices about where we would like to be, and how we are going to get there.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
You still haven't provided any substantiation for your claim. What did you read? How are you measuring the vitality of faith? And how is it that "spiritual culture" setting in = increasing liberalism of faith?
quote:
My near-decade-long apostasy was preceded by efforts to conform to a conservative evangelical form of Christianity, and my return was aided by the existence of a liberal form of Christianity wherein my faith has been nourished for more than 20 years, so I really don’t buy the assumption that liberal Christianity is necessarily a way station on the road to complete loss
Re your second post, I agree that one of the remaining purposes of liberal-leaning churches is to receive people who’ve grown away from more conservative types of church. My ex-minister (Methodist) said practically the same thing. But despite having this role, liberal-leaning churches are more susceptible to decline than other types of church. This saddens me, because I believe in having a diversity of churches.
If you want substantiation and some stats for this then you’re basically asking about the various complex arguments within the sociology of religion, especially concerning secularisation. There are few definitive answers in sociology, but the stats alone send out a worrying message. I’m posting some links to relevant essays that I’ve found on line, (An off line list would take forever).
Laurence Iannaccone, ‘Why Strict Churches are Strong’, The American Journal of Sociology, 99:5, 1994:
http://majorsmatter.net/religion/Readings/RationalChoice.pdf
(For this essay ‘spiritual vitality’ might refer to members’ level of commitment to church life, willingness to adhere to values/ practices/ clothing/ lifestyles that may be in conflict with the wider culture, the degree of ‘free riding’ permitted, etc. It admits that there are benefits to a certain degree of liberalisation.)
Steve Bruce, ‘Secularization and Impotence of Individualized Religion’, The Hedgehog Review, Spring/Summer 2006: http://www.iasc-culture.org/THR/archives/AfterSecularization/8.12EBruce.pdf
Mark Chaves, ‘Secularization as Declining Religious Authority’, Social Forces, 72:3, 1994.
http://majorsmatter.net/religion/Readings/Secularization.pdf
William Kay, ‘Effects of Modernity on Religion in Eighteenth and Ninteenth-Century Britain’. Paper contribution to the Evangelicalism and Fundamentalism in Britain Project, June 2008. http://www.eauk.org/_efb/downloads.html
Charles Edward White, ‘The Rise and Decline of the Class Meeting’, Methodist History, 40:4, 2002.
http://myweb.arbor.edu/cwhite/cm.pdf
There are many relevant books quoted in the bibliographies above. Callum Brown's, ‘The Death of Christian Britain’, 2002 is interesting on the impact of an increasingly lax religious approach for each generational cohort.
For a cautiously positive assessment there's this article: Harriet Harris, 'Podium: Does Liberal Christianity need Defending?' Modern Believing, 42:1, 2001.
One book I haven't read which looks good is: Eds. Martyn Percy and Ian Markham,'Why Liberal Churches are Growing' 2006.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
It could be that you fall off the cliff, and the Son of the Emperor-over-the-Sea rushes to the cliff's edge and blows you to safety.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
Not my experience I have to say, nor I suspect of a good many others.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Martyn Percy is someone that gives me hope - of all the liberal authors I have read, he is the one who hasn't yet appeared to fall off the edge.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Chorister
The only thing of Martyn Percy's I've read is 'Clergy: The Origin of Species'. From that book he appears to be liberal in the usual moderate mainstream way, but he's not on the far reaches of liberalism, is he? He's critical of the charismatic movement on the one hand, yet he also seems to think that Methodists are too 'liberal-minded' as a group, and that they need to add some grit to the mix by being more theologically diverse, CofE style!
This book isn't a theological study, though. Maybe he comes across as much more liberal when he's focused on that kind of writing.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Anglo Catholic Relict
Thank you for your reply above, which I won't copy out.
You say, 'we have choices'. Yoiks, I have thought about this for about 20 years, and I still don't feel sure about this.
For example, I've never thought I had a choice about being attracted to Christianity. I've tried to fight against it, but as others have said, have been pulled back.
Oh well, I don't want to get into a free will debate, but I just don't know. Am I choosing not to know? I don't know.
There is something here about control as well, and as I've got older, that seems to disappear. Am I controlling anything, and is anything being controlled? Rather, at the best of times, there is just a fusion of self and other. Of course, this is marvelous.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Chorister, doesn't it depend on where you define the edge?
For me church is a huge barrier. The national church is doing so much for which I want to say "not in my name" and I don't have a great feeling of community in the local church (understatement) then that makes it even harder not to fall over the edge.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
How long is a piece of string?
It is as I thought, then. You cannot argue your corner but must call people names. Game over. Don't play again.
Look. If I've understood you correctly you're asking for a definite amount of time. Such is impossible to give as for some it will be longer and others shorter hence, how long is a piece of string?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Look. If I've understood you correctly you're asking for a definite amount of time. Such is impossible to give as for some it will be longer and others shorter hence, how long is a piece of string?
Which should be enough to clue you into the fact that you're not understanding me correctly.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anglo Catholic Relict
Thank you for your reply above, which I won't copy out.
You say, 'we have choices'. Yoiks, I have thought about this for about 20 years, and I still don't feel sure about this.
For example, I've never thought I had a choice about being attracted to Christianity. I've tried to fight against it, but as others have said, have been pulled back.
We may not have a choice about who or what we find attractive, but we certainly have a choice in how we respond to that attraction.
If we factor God into this, then he calls us and part of us finds that call irresistible. But another part may well resent it, doubt it or ourselves, or fight against it.
quote:
Oh well, I don't want to get into a free will debate, but I just don't know. Am I choosing not to know? I don't know.
Free will is a difficult one, I agree. But I think we have to at least act as if we believe we have free will. Otherwise we might become too fatalistic, and stop bothering to do anything. Or perhaps do too much, and decide nothing is our fault.
quote:
There is something here about control as well, and as I've got older, that seems to disappear. Am I controlling anything, and is anything being controlled? Rather, at the best of times, there is just a fusion of self and other. Of course, this is marvelous.
If the fusion of self and other involves an awareness of God as the other, then that is indeed marvellous. And if you are seeking his will rather than your own, then perhaps control is the wrong word.
I think I was only trying to reassure you that you could not fall off any cliff edge without consenting to that fall. I hope that is true; it seems to be true for me. I have spent many years on another kind of cliff edge, but it seems to call for a definite step over the edge from me. As long as I do not consent to that step, it seems I can stay on this edge pretty well indefinitely. Once in a while the edge moves away from me, but mostly it doesn't.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
My near-decade-long apostasy was proceded by efforts to conform to a conservative evangelical form of Christianity, and my return was aided by the existence of a liberal form of Christianity wherein my faith has been nourished for more than 20 years, so I really don't buy the assumption that liberal Christianity is necessarily a way station on the road to complete loss of faith.
This is what I hope that churches like my own are for people - it's very reassuring to hear that it worked in that way for you.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Anglo Catholic Relict
Interesting stuff, which again I won't copy out.
Your point about seeking God is of great interest to me. Something that happened to me as I got older, and perhaps because I did a lot of Zen meditation, is that the seeking element began to fade.
This is quite well known in long-term meditation, I mean a retreat lasting a week or two weeks, or months, that the notion of 'meditation' itself begins to become very fuzzy. There is no boundary between having my breakfast, going to the loo, and my meditation.
Similarly, 'seeking God' became like those melting clocks of Dali's. Who is seeking whom? Where is the edge (boundary)?
I suppose in more normal English, that I stopped seeking, and found God, except that even 'found' is a kind of misnomer. God is just here, and I had been working myself into a kind of lather thinking that there was something to seek or find. The seeking had been the obstacle. However, I'm not going to generalize upon that. It's not a recipe.
Eastern religions have developed a sophisticated way of discussing this stuff, and I suppose Christianity has also, but hides it away. I suppose Simone Weil is the modern version of it, but there is masses of it available, e.g. de Caussade, 'The Cloud of Unknowing', blah blah blah.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anglo Catholic Relict
Interesting stuff, which again I won't copy out.
Your point about seeking God is of great interest to me. Something that happened to me as I got older, and perhaps because I did a lot of Zen meditation, is that the seeking element began to fade.
This is quite well known in long-term meditation, I mean a retreat lasting a week or two weeks, or months, that the notion of 'meditation' itself begins to become very fuzzy. There is no boundary between having my breakfast, going to the loo, and my meditation.
Yes, I understand that. Imo in Christian terms it is summed up by St Benedict as 'Laborare est orare'; to work is to pray. In other words there is no divide; we do not pray and then stop and do something else. Prayer becomes part of us, and it never ceases.
We bring ourselves into God's presence, and we remain there, whatever else we do, and whoever else we encounter. Clearly this is an ideal; sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But when it does, it is like being at home.
quote:
Similarly, 'seeking God' became like those melting clocks of Dali's. Who is seeking whom? Where is the edge (boundary)?
If we seek to know and follow the will of God, then we also seek to dissolve the boundaries of our own will, our own rebellious nature. We know full well that what we want would not be the same as what God wants, but we choose to follow his will. In that choosing, are we ourselves or are we part of God? Both, really.
quote:
I suppose in more normal English, that I stopped seeking, and found God, except that even 'found' is a kind of misnomer. God is just here, and I had been working myself into a kind of lather thinking that there was something to seek or find. The seeking had been the obstacle. However, I'm not going to generalize upon that. It's not a recipe.
I think I understand what you are saying. I remember talking to a Vicar years ago who was very keen on Iona, and on telling people to go there. I had a young daughter, an alcoholic husband, and was running my own company, and I was struggling to cope. The only suggestion he had for me was to tell me to go to Iona.
He might as well have told me to climb to the top of Mount Everest.
A more realistic A/C priest suggested that I might consider getting a divorce, which helped enormously. It took me several years, but it helped to know that it was an option.
Over the years I learned to find God here and now, and not postpone that finding until I was in the right place.
quote:
Eastern religions have developed a sophisticated way of discussing this stuff, and I suppose Christianity has also, but hides it away. I suppose Simone Weil is the modern version of it, but there is masses of it available, e.g. de Caussade, 'The Cloud of Unknowing', blah blah blah.
There is indeed. But it is like any language; until you understand what it means, it will be just so much noise.
You spoke of edges. Perhaps being on the edge is part of finding God; coming to the edge of resources of other kinds, whatever they may be, leads us to face God in a more personal way.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
... The national church is doing so much for which I want to say "not in my name" ...
Now that, if you don't mind my saying, is an unusual charge. Most people that grumble are complaining that it isn't doing enough, though they disagree hugely as to what it is they say it should be doing.
One can hardly even accuse it of 'in my name' refusing to consecrate women as bishops when the majority of its prominent representatives voted for it.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Anglo Catholic Relict
Great stuff.
I sometimes think about this stuff in relation to the 'hiddenness of God' topic, which seemed to be hot a while ago amongst some atheists. But you are the one who is hidden! I used to say to people, perhaps rather arrogantly. There are often good reasons why people should be hidden, after all.
One of my oldest friends is a Sufi, and he is now dying (going to meet the Beloved, in Sufi language), but he would always say that there is nowhere where God is not. I suppose you can find that in Christian mysticism; in fact, many Sufis have been heavily persecuted for saying it, even killed. Alas, that men and women so close to God would be persecuted, but then God must be hidden away from men's eyes!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Now that, after the third time of reading, is most wise. How should one judge ones means? By their fruits? Or should they seem good in themselves some other way? And how does one measure their concreteness? Open, not rhetorical questions.
Yes, by their fruits one will know them. But what this means is that one takes most of the time typically devoted to worrying about the future, and instead devotes it to reflecting upon the past. It is not the future fruits that we are to worry about, it is the ripe fruits of the past that we are to judge now as sweet or rotten. For these we can know the means and the outcome, that is concrete. Whereas the future is nebulous and anybody's guess.
If we habitually reflect upon the past and judge the present, then we actually gain true freedom to explore and try something new. Because we know that the novel path we take now will also be judged in the future: soon enough we will stop, take a step back and evaluate if we are in fact going where we want to be going. And if that is not the case, then we will correct our course and if need be double back. Whereas if we always look toward the future fruits, speculate about what this or that may bring one day, then we are like the donkey running after a carrot dangling in front of its nose. That can take us to places good, bad or ugly, because we are running after a dream, and our dreams always outrun us.
The old instructions for Compline say that if Compline is the last prayer for the day before sleep, then one should replace the formal prayer of the Our Father contained therein by an examination of conscience of reasonable length. The length of a solemnly spoken Our Father gives an idea of what is "reasonable" there. That to me is full of practical wisdom. Stop, reflect, evaluate - not lengthily and obsessively but briefly and habitually - and then sleep in peace, for tomorrow is another day wide open for another try.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
No, you misunderstand me, I do not want to put my name to the opposition to same sex marriage ~ and the failure me women bishop vote last year.
[ 25. August 2013, 14:44: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Anglo Catholic Relict
Great stuff.
I sometimes think about this stuff in relation to the 'hiddenness of God' topic, which seemed to be hot a while ago amongst some atheists. But you are the one who is hidden! I used to say to people, perhaps rather arrogantly. There are often good reasons why people should be hidden, after all.
Quite right. We hide ourselves in God, and wrap ourselves in his love.
quote:
One of my oldest friends is a Sufi, and he is now dying (going to meet the Beloved, in Sufi language), but he would always say that there is nowhere where God is not. I suppose you can find that in Christian mysticism; in fact, many Sufis have been heavily persecuted for saying it, even killed. Alas, that men and women so close to God would be persecuted, but then God must be hidden away from men's eyes!
In Christian terms, there is only one kind of place where God is not. God withdraws his presence from the presence of evil, because the two cannot exist in the same place together. God's holiness would destroy evil in a moment.
Where there is pure evil God is not present on purpose; to give time for repentance and amendment of life. We see evidence of this in the Old Testament; we are told that no man can look upon God and live, and even those who touch the Ark of the Covenant drop dead in an instant.
In Christ God is able for the first time to look sinful man in the eyes, and not destroy him. Us. And in return sinful man is able to see God's compassion looking back at him, again for the first time.
The more we withdraw our own will from what we do, the more of Christ will be visible when people look at us. Theosis is not imposed on anyone, but we can choose to co-operate with it, and God will always meet us more than half way when we do.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One of my oldest friends is a Sufi, and he is now dying (going to meet the Beloved, in Sufi language), but he would always say that there is nowhere where God is not.
... I should have said, I am sorry about your friend. You are very fortunate to know him.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
One of my oldest friends is a Sufi, and he is now dying (going to meet the Beloved, in Sufi language), but he would always say that there is nowhere where God is not.
... I should have said, I am sorry about your friend. You are very fortunate to know him.
Thank you. Yes, he is incomparable. He will be a grievous loss, and I can't really face it yet.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Thank you IngoB. And you know I mean that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
In Christian terms, there is only one kind of place where God is not. God withdraws his presence from the presence of evil, because the two cannot exist in the same place together. God's holiness would destroy evil in a moment.
Where there is pure evil God is not present on purpose; to give time for repentance and amendment of life. We see evidence of this in the Old Testament; we are told that no man can look upon God and live, and even those who touch the Ark of the Covenant drop dead in an instant.
In Christ God is able for the first time to look sinful man in the eyes, and not destroy him. Us. And in return sinful man is able to see God's compassion looking back at him, again for the first time.
If God's presence is totally removed from evil, then how can evil exist? God is the creator and sustainor of existence according to Classical Theism. To say that evil exists without God's presence implies that evil is in some sense an independent power and risks dualism.
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
You spoke of edges. Perhaps being on the edge is part of finding God; coming to the edge of resources of other kinds, whatever they may be, leads us to face God in a more personal way.
Richard Holloway talks of people who are 'Dancing on the Edge' - that doesn't, to me, sound like the action of someone afraid they are going to fall off.
However, I have also heard of the view that, at the extremes of life, people often undergo a seismic paradigm shift - which for those formerly conventional Christians may mean a transformation to unbelief, but equally for non-Christians to be propelled into belief. Who knows how any of us will react under extreme conditions - until that faith (or lack of it) is severely tested?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you want substantiation and some stats for this ...
I was kind of hoping you'd make the argument yourself, which would be something I could read in a couple of minutes. I'm not going to spend hours reading essays!
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If you want substantiation and some stats for this ...
I was kind of hoping you'd make the argument yourself, which would be something I could read in a couple of minutes. I'm not going to spend hours reading essays!
Well, I did explain what the basic sociological position was, and what I meant by 'a loss of spiritual vitality'. I then posted some titles, as requested. But perhaps I overestimated your awareness of British church decline. Basically, demanding denominations became comfortable and upwardly mobile, and required less of their members. This made it easier to belong (which you and I will both appreciate), but it also made it easier to leave. Evangelism and the transmission of Christian teaching to one's own children have become less urgent. Expectations of serious commitment or theological conformity are fairly low in the mainstream churches, and when people, especially the young, drift away for want of any particular reason to stay, few are surprised. This is the low-key fall-out of a general liberalisation in atmosphere.
However, the OP was referring more specifically to church folk reading too much 'dangerous' theology that risked damaging their faith. The clergy used to worry about this. I once heard a liberation theologian admit to me that he advised ordinands not to share some of this stuff with their congregations, because they'd only do it badly and end up driving people away from Christianity! So the fear exists at quite high levels.
IMO the former problem is greater than the latter, because a changing atmosphere can affect far more people than a few churchy intellectuals reading or recommending 'dangerous' books. But theology does help to create a certain atmosphere, because intellectuals in a congregation or a denomination have influence. I've realised that what a clergyman doesn't say is almost as revealing as what he does say.
Sorry if I've misunderstood you again! It happens to us all sometimes.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Richard Holloway talks of people who are 'Dancing on the Edge' - that doesn't, to me, sound like the action of someone afraid they are going to fall off.
Richard Holloway is quite a good example of someone who moved through Christianity - gradually becoming more liberal until he could no longer call himself a Christian. He now defines himself as a 'Post Christian'. I remember buying his book 'Dancing on the Edge' while on holiday in Edinburgh about 5 years ago which was on the Liberal end of Christianity. That book was published in '97. Waiting for me at home from Amazon was his just published 'Looking in the Distance'. In between the two books, Holloway had written 'Godless Morality' and 'Doubts and Loves'. There is a very clear progression through the books from a liberal Christian perspective through to a Post Christian (sometimes he calls it Recovering Christian) perspective.
I'd agree - Holloway isn't afraid he's going to fall off, but "fallen off" he has - at least from a Christian point of view.
[ 26. August 2013, 09:09: Message edited by: Yonatan ]
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Thank you. Yes, he is incomparable. He will be a grievous loss, and I can't really face it yet.
Istm, grief is the tax we pay on love; the greater the love, the higher the cost. I am really sorry.
I am glad you still have time together, and that is what matters.
[ 26. August 2013, 09:34: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
If God's presence is totally removed from evil, then how can evil exist? God is the creator and sustainor of existence according to Classical Theism. To say that evil exists without God's presence implies that evil is in some sense an independent power and risks dualism.
You are right, of course. I am not very good at explaining what I mean.
Not totally removed; withdrawn or perhaps veiled. Like Moses coming down from God's presence. Or like the sun hidden by thick cloud as an act of mercy, to prevent sunburn.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
You spoke of edges. Perhaps being on the edge is part of finding God; coming to the edge of resources of other kinds, whatever they may be, leads us to face God in a more personal way.
Richard Holloway talks of people who are 'Dancing on the Edge' - that doesn't, to me, sound like the action of someone afraid they are going to fall off.
Well, I am not familiar with Mr Holloway or what he has to say, but I would not risk dancing on any edges myself. That strikes me as somewhat dangerous.
quote:
However, I have also heard of the view that, at the extremes of life, people often undergo a seismic paradigm shift - which for those formerly conventional Christians may mean a transformation to unbelief, but equally for non-Christians to be propelled into belief. Who knows how any of us will react under extreme conditions - until that faith (or lack of it) is severely tested?
Indeed so.
It is possible to lose faith in an insufficient version of God or of Christianity, and to move towards a broader or more meaningful one. And no doubt the same applies in a life without much awareness of God; he may well make his presence known at some point.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
Richard Holloway is quite a good example of someone who moved through Christianity - gradually becoming more liberal until he could no longer call himself a Christian. He now defines himself as a 'Post Christian'.
...
I'd agree - Holloway isn't afraid he's going to fall off, but "fallen off" he has - at least from a Christian point of view.
Our eternity is not determined by how we define ourselves, nor indeed by how we are judged by our brothers and sisters.
I think we can all be grateful for both of these mercies.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
This thread has made me wonder about what happens with the same process in reverse - ie. with people who moved to a very conservative theological position.
It strikes me that there are convenient staging posts and stepping off points in both directions.
So, for instance, looking back at the trajectory I followed after my own evangelical conversion, there were points where I could have opted to stop short of the positions I eventually adopted - whether they were conservative evangelical or charismatic evangelical.
Conversely, now I've swung back from that particular direction it seems to me that there are choices and stepping off points that I can choose to take or to ignore - whether that be in a swing of the pendulum towards theological liberalism or towards a more sacramental/liturgical position or whatever else.
We are adults, and whilst we might not completely be the masters of our fate and captains of our souls, it seems to me that we are all mature enough here to ring the bell for the next stop at any point along the line.
I don't see it in deterministic terms in the sense of there being a particular inevitability in the trajectory that any of us take. Chorister strikes me as eminently sensible and more than capable of choosing which stop or station to alight at rather than being carried inexorably along in one direction or other.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Richard Holloway was one of the particular theologians I was thinking of when I wrote the OP. I, too, enjoyed his earlier books, but thought 'Oh no, not another one!' when he became post-Christian. Ditto with some of the feminist theologians (who also seem to have an unerring ability to travel in one direction, ultimately to way beyond the 'Christian' boundary).
Still, I take comfort from those who assure me that, like the Good Ship Lollipop (and SoF?), I might not fall off the edge but merely travel around in a (or many) great big circle(s). As a Moor walker, that appeals to me very much!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Sorry if I've misunderstood you again! It happens to us all sometimes.
No, not at all! A more substantive response later when I have more time, but for now let me say that I appreciate your efforts very much.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I can't help but think that churchmanship and liberal/conservative status is more about personality than piety. Liberals are not by default less religious than conservatives - the emphasis is just different.
Personally speaking, having got (from outside appearances) less conservative, I've actually always been at about the level I am now - I just didn't feel confident in my own faith as opposed to that of those teaching me. YMMV.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
I sometimes worry I'm turning into a conservative evangelical. But I think it's just that I'm mellowing with age...
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
I sometimes worry I'm turning into a conservative evangelical. But I think it's just that I'm mellowing with age...
Cripes, pererin, if that's you mellowing with age, whatever were you like before??!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Returning to the OP - your car is more likely to crash if you're driving it than if it's sitting on the driveway. Nevertheless, it's a risk you have to take if you want to get anywhere.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I don't think that a liberal slippery slope is inevitable. I grew up in a very conservative, theollogically xenophobic religious milieu, so when I got to the university and found earnest Christians who had a critical/nuanced/contextual understanding of Scripture, a liberal social outlook and a more expansive understanding of the religious experience in general, it was very liberating for me.
But later in my life I found myself in church situations with progressive leadership that had pretty much fallen off the Christianity bus; people in positions of pastoral or teaching authority who were either cynically phoning it in or whose attitude had become, "Well, all of this Godstuff is really just a fairy tale that we've been telling ourselves for centuries; but it helps ease people's anxieties about their mortality, gives a chaotic world meaning for them and makes people more compassionate toward one another, so let's keep telling ourselves the fairy tale -- except that we won't actually explain to the simpler people that it's a fairy tale because that would upset them." Those sorts of experiences with clergypeople and teachers have moved me farther back to the center of the continuum, although I still fall on the liberal side of things...call me squishily optimistic that we're not just making up the idea of a God and the basic Christian narrative.
[ 28. August 2013, 22:20: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Returning to the OP - your car is more likely to crash if you're driving it than if it's sitting on the driveway. Nevertheless, it's a risk you have to take if you want to get anywhere.
This. But I do think that it is important to have a community of the faithful whom you trust and respect to help you think through your faith journey as you grow.
--Tom Clune
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Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I am sometimes rather concerned that I'm on the same journey myself, but certainly don't want to travel the whole distance. But, once you start, is it possible to stop? And if so, how and where?
You can always stop journeying, decide you're too old to change any more and stick with where you are. Abandon the Quest for Truth & Maturity and tell God that you're just not capable of going any further.
What you can't do is go back to where you used to be and have things be the same as before. Because you'll have changed.
best wishes,
Russ
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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Anglo Catholic Relict: God withdraws his presence from the presence of evil, because the two cannot exist in the same place together.
This is not what I believe. God is always present when evil is done. He is always right there with the victim.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I was sort of working my way towards that thought. God must be present where evil is present, since that is how evil is recognized.
OK, that's not true if you define evil as 'something that contradicts my view of virtue', or something like that, which is more pragmatic.
But in a religious sense, evil is defined by God, isn't it?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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