Ship of Fools: Multiple Lutherans

Thread: Multiple Lutherans Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

As a non-Lutheran, I have observed that in the United States, we have several different branches of the Lutheran church. I have not yet encountered a good explanation of this phenomenon. Can any of the Shipmates explain this briefly?

Of course, one can ask the same question about multiple Baptists and multiple Methodists. Perhaps people just don't get along well.

[Edited to correct thread title spelling -- RuthW, temp Purg host]

[ 03. September 2013, 21:23: Message edited by: RuthW ]

Posted by malik3000 (# 11437) on :

Speaking as a non-Lutheran, the reason for the diversity of Lutheran denominations in the U.S. is basically differences on various theological issues, plus the varying European countries (Scandanavian countries and Germany) immigrants came from.

From what i observe, the ethnic thing has lessened, and there are a lot of Lutherans without German or Scandanavian ancestry, e.g., there are at least 2 predominantly African American congregations here in Atlanta. And nowadays there have been mergers among various denominations.

So ISTM the main differences are theological. The 2 biggest denominations in the US are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), which is more liberal and ecumenical-minded, and the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod which is more conservative (and in a lot more placed than Missouri!)

But Olaf or LutheranChik are in a better position to speak of all this.

Posted by would love to belong (# 16747) on :

I don't know the answer, but I suspect it won't be brief [Smile]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
Perhaps people just don't get along well.

That's the briefest explanation I've seen! [Smile]

The longer answer lies in ethnic heritage and consequently language. In immigrant days, Norwegian churches (who spoke Norwegian, of course) tended to band together. Likewise with Swedish, Danish, Finnish, German, Slovak, etc. Then there were the East Coast Germans--earlier immigrants--who differ quite a bit from the later German immigrants who settled in the Midwest (LCMS, for instance). Over decades, there were various mergers and alliances. The Norwegians allied together, while the Swedish found more similarity in the Pennsylvania Germans.

malik is right: language and heritage issues really only apply now to those of us who still live in what are, essentially, surviving enclaves. Go to Minnesota and the Norwegian heritage is still alive and well, even though Norwegian is now a second, chosen language. Theology is beginning to replace ethnic lines as a litmus test for who belongs and who does not.

Add to it the fact that it's a simple vote to leave a denomination--with property, in most cases--and it's pretty easy to go. A denom provides only a couple of advantages: a stock of clergy, seminaries to train them, pension and insurance plans for said clergy, and a point of doctrinal unity (and since Lutheranism in the US is so very congregational, this is not always seen as an advantage. It's not uncommon for Lutherans in very ethnic areas to think of their own local congregation as the One True Church, and to avoid contact with any others!)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

I understand that in Brazil, IECLB is the equivalent of ELCA, and IELB is Missouri. They don't always get along well either.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Not Lutheran, but I did attend a very nice LCA (?) church for a couple of years, decades ago.

The Sunday service was much like a simple RC mass. In fact, denoms/churches were coordinating their services by then. We tended to sing most everything. I liked it a lot.

I find the ethnic bit a bit tricky. Not really for myself--I've got some of the "appropriate" ancestry. OTOH, I've met Native Americans who were Lutherans! Mind-boggling, when you're only used to the Germanic/Scandinavian version of Lutherans.

BTW, I gather that the Wisconsin Synod is even more conservative than Missouri!

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I find the ethnic bit a bit tricky. Not really for myself--I've got some of the "appropriate" ancestry. OTOH, I've met Native Americans who were Lutherans! Mind-boggling, when you're only used to the Germanic/Scandinavian version of Lutherans.

The ELCA's Presiding Bishop-Elect has thankfully been highlighting that we are not just Scandinavians and Germans. We're trying. We really are. Old stereotypes are hard to break. I'm afraid that Lutheranism has been so localized to certain regions that many non-Lutherans in the US don't really have a good vision of what it means to be a Lutheran.

quote:
BTW, I gather that the Wisconsin Synod is even more conservative than Missouri!

Yep!

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

At one time there were over 100 different Lutheran Synods in the US. Each time there was a new Lutheran immigration the people would set up their own Synod, then at the turn of the 20th century there began a move to combine the different Synods. Over the years and with several mergers eventually it has been reduced to 20 Synods now. The two major ones are the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, but there are a number of much smaller synods.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

Non-Lutheran but my understanding is that LCMS is Young Earth Creationist.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Almost on a village-by-village basis, I gather Gramps?

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

Regarding German Lutheran immigration:
There were two large waves of German Lutherans. The first occurred in the first half of the 18th cent. and included German Lutherans, as well as German Calvinist and Anabaptists, from the Palatine region. The come to America to escape the frequent invasions of the French. Many were enticed with Pennsylvania's policy of generous grants of land. This group makes up a large percentage of ELCA Lutherans in Pa.

The second wave of immigration by Germans occurred in the 1830-40 period when various German princes, most notably Prussia, attempted to force a merger of Lutherans and Calvinist. These German Lutheran immigrants arrived at the port of New Orleans and traveled up the Mississippi to what is now St. Louis and spread out through the Midwest. This group formed the core of what would become the Missouri Synod Lutherans. They tend to be more theologically conservative and less inclined towards ecumenism, even with their fellow Lutherans. Example: On the much loved old sitcom "Cheers" there was a scene where Woody, the doltish bartender, and his girlfriend are discussing marriage. Woody says that theirs would be a "mixed" marriage because he was ELCA and she was Missouri Synod.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

Something I have long been curious about has been the reluctance of the more conservative U.S. Lutherans to ally themselves with other evangelicals. For example, there is nothing in the Statement of Faith of the National Association of Evangelicals that Missouri Synod folk would disagree with, nor the right wing of the ELCA. My perception, rightly or wrongly, is that at least some conservative Lutherans not only regard the Lutheran Confessions as an authentic expression of true Christianity but as the authentic expression of true Christianity --- hence the hesitation to significantly engage in any interdenominational cooperation. Am I wrong?

[ 04. September 2013, 15:15: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]

Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :

Somebody once says that the difference between Anglicanism and Lutheranism is that whereas Anglicans will tolerate any heresy rather than run the risk of schism, Lutherans will tolerate any schism rather than run the risk of heresy.

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :

I think an alliance between conservative Lutherans and Evangelicals is highly unlikely. Conservative Lutheran tend to take their theology very seriously and would probably object to the Evangelical teachings that deny the efficacy of infant baptism and the concept the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

Posted by shamwari (# 15556) on :

We need Lamb Chopped to contribute. Where is she? Long time no see

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
The Norwegians allied together, while the Swedish found more similarity in the Pennsylvania Germans.

What sort of Lutheranism did these bring with them from Germany? I always understood that German Lutheranism tended to pietism and, liturgically, to 'low church' ceremonial, whereas the Church of Sweden has done neither. But I have no real experience of Lutheranism in any variety, so I am open to correction.

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

I've been wondering why the more liberal ecumenically-minded ELCA doesn't just join with TEC. Given the recent modus vivendi the two churches have reached over episcopacy, I'm not seeing any substantive reason for them to remain apart, except for maybe a certain national/ethnic identification that both of them seem anxious to shed.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

Mere speculation, but first because ELCA is bigger and TEC doesn't want to get swallowed, and second because ELCA is too congregational for TEC's tastes. They are comfortable as cousins that you have over frequently for dinner, but living together would ruin the relationship with each other's bad habits.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Officially, the LCMS does not take a position on the age of the earth. They will still say everything was created in six days, but there is some fudging on what the Hebrew term Yom means.

All Lutherans, though, will accept the argument that God is still creating. While Luther believed in the six day creation, he would point out that God only rested on the seventh day. God only rested on the seventh day. There was an eighth day. Creation continues. It is in God's nature to create.

[ 04. September 2013, 19:29: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Taking this conversation a bit further, are most US Episcopalians of English or Welsh descent and most US Presbyterians of Scots or Ulster descent? If so, do any of them still self identify as such?

To confuse everyone on the west side of the Atlantic a bit further, about half the Protestants in Ulster are CofI not Presbyterian, but I think Presbyterians may have formed a larger proportion of the big emigration in the C18.

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :

After a few generations it's hard to tell. People marry, people change churches, a couple chooses the church of the husband or wife, etc. Not to mention more than a few religious disruptions that cause people to move churches.

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Taking this conversation a bit further, are most US Episcopalians of English or Welsh descent and most US Presbyterians of Scots or Ulster descent? If so, do any of them still self identify as such?

Here is a summary of the ethnic demographics of TEC as of 2009. "Non-Hispanic white" makes up 86.7%. My guess is that these are more likely to have a British Isles connection than the US population as a whole, but you can find people of almost any ancestry in TEC.

I happen to be of Scandinavian ancestry, but for some reason I never had an interest in trying out Lutheranism. I've been Episcopalian since college.

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Non-Lutheran but my understanding is that LCMS is Young Earth Creationist.

More or less officially, as I understand it. You can read the LCMS's position [url= http://lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1103]here[/url]

Now, there are probably numerous individual Missouri Synod Lutherans who shrug this off just like there are Catholics who do not share their church's teaching on certain bioethics issues. Any more and I'm getting into dead horse territory.

Sometimes you just go to church where your family has always gone to church, and leave the theologians to argue about the number of angels on a pinhead.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
After a few generations it's hard to tell. People marry, people change churches, a couple chooses the church of the husband or wife, etc. Not to mention more than a few religious disruptions that cause people to move churches.

Sometimes within a single generation. Both of my parents grew up in different denominations from the ones in which they've ended up, and the same goes for me. About half of my college chaplaincy, including the chaplain, had come from other denominations.

Some of the other half, on the other hand, have families that have been Episcopalian (or pre-revolutionary Anglicans) for at least eight or nine generations. And some to back all the way.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Taking this conversation a bit further, are most US Episcopalians of English or Welsh descent and most US Presbyterians of Scots or Ulster descent? If so, do any of them still self identify as such?

In my hometown in the New York area, the Lutheran churches are by far the least racially diverse (with the exception of African-American or Korean churches!). The Episcopal churches often now have Spanish language services for the increasing number of former Catholic Latinos in attendance.

[ 05. September 2013, 07:58: Message edited by: seekingsister ]

Posted by CL (# 16145) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Taking this conversation a bit further, are most US Episcopalians of English or Welsh descent and most US Presbyterians of Scots or Ulster descent? If so, do any of them still self identify as such?

To confuse everyone on the west side of the Atlantic a bit further, about half the Protestants in Ulster are CofI not Presbyterian, but I think Presbyterians may have formed a larger proportion of the big emigration in the C18.

Most people of 18th Century Ulster-Scots immigrant decent, certainly in Appalachia and the South, eventually became Baptists or the like after a generation or two.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

In Appalachia many people do not choose their church on the basis of denomination. Proximity is more important. In this region two places that are one mile apart as the crow flies may be five or even ten miles apart by road.

If the nearest church is congenial, people usually stick with it.

Moo

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Germans are a very strong strain in TEC society, partly as many early German settlers were drawn to Episcopalian services in the absence of their own clergy. As far as Presbyterians go, Koreans are now an astonishingly impressive cohort.

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