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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Which theological college...
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newcastle-anglican
Apprentice
# 17759
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Posted
So I've been seeing the DDO for past year and am hoping to maybe get to a local and possibly a BAP sometime in 2014/15... i know its probably early but I was wondering about colleges lately.
I'm a fairly liberal catholic, pro-women and gay...
I haven't got a first degree.
Can cope with all sorts of worship.
My thoughts are...
Westcott - I like the idea of it, having visited it once I didn't love it, and I may feel out of my depth in Cambridge... possibly? is it as cliquey as I imagine?
Mirfield - It's better geographically for me... but I don't know about the whole monastic rhythm... and wearing the cassock etc alot... but I like the idea of popping into Sheffield. But could it be suffocating?
Staggers - Bit of a curved ball... I love oxford, it may capture the inner anglo-catholic in me, I think after hearing such terrible things from people, and meeting some staggers people, I wonder if I would despite everything quite enjoy it.
Cuddesdon - I don't drive, am not married or have a child... would this be a disadvantage. Practically not having a car would I feel isolated there?? The diversity would suit me though.
I have a few queries...
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Welcome to The Ship, newcastle-anglican.
There is a long-running thread on vocations which includes some discussion of colleges.
I will have a backstage mumble with my co Hosts as to whether Heaven is the best place for this thread.
Firenze
Heaven Host
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
With your CV I would guess you would be most comfortable at Westcott, and least comfortable at Staggers. However, the thought occurs - have you considered Queen's Birmingham? That might be a good fall back for you. Liberalish, middle of the road, and not conspicuously straight.
PD
[ 16. July 2013, 22:48: Message edited by: PD ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
Mirfield - It's better geographically for me... but I don't know about the whole monastic rhythm... and wearing the cassock etc alot... but I like the idea of popping into Sheffield. But could it be suffocating?
It's many years since I was trained, and I don't know much about any of the colleges. But I know the Community at Mirfield and have observed the college from outside, and it certainly attracts a wide variety of students: men and women, married and single (doubtless also gay and straight), full-on anglo-catholic, liberal and evangelical.
What would attract me would especially be the monastic rhythm. It would ensure that my personal spirituality was in step with that of the whole church and would help me survive spiritually once in a parish with its conflicting demands. The liturgy at Mirfield (which the college frequently shares with the Community ) would train me to understand the purpose of any worship I might be involved in, and also demystify elaborate ceremonial by understanding its basically simple structure.
Cassocks cover a multitude of sins!
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
With your CV I would guess you would be most comfortable at Westcott, and least comfortable at Staggers. However, the thought occurs - have you considered Queen's Birmingham? That might be a good fall back for you. Liberalish, middle of the road, and not conspicuously straight.
PD
I would also endorse Queen's. Living in Birmingham would make transport without a car very easy, and going by how many SCM (Student Christian Movement, uber-right-on student organisation) friends go to Queen's I'd say it would be very gay-friendly. It is a joint Anglican and Methodist college so not very high church, but very accepting of high church people.
I would also endorse Mirfield. Most of my ordained or approved for ministry friends have been to, attend or will attend Cranmer, but my A-C, liberal and pro-women priest went to Mirfield and enjoyed it very much. Also, as the niece of a nun (and someone who is very similar to you, from what you've said), the monastic rhythm is very much a blessing, even if becoming a monastic isn't for you.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Yes, we think this thread should join its big sister in AS.
Firenze
Heaven Host
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
HI Newcastle Anglican
You would certainly find you would fit in at Cuddesdon with your background.
While it can feel isolated- it is in a tiny village after all- there were a number of people while I was there who didn't drive. They generally seemed to manage, other ordinands are great at offering lifts and there is a bus service though only every two hours into Oxford. If you can cope with walking down to Wheatley there are more frequent buses there.
That said so much goes on in the community and you are so busy it would be mainly weekends when you would have time to think about the isolation and then you find there is usually someone going into Oxford or out and about.
Hope this helps
Oh and edited for another thought- You really can only get a feel for a place by visiting- before I made a decision I visited 4 colleges. I was rightfully told by my Vicar I would know the right place when I got there.
[ 17. July 2013, 06:34: Message edited by: Jante ]
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Hi newcastle-anglican - I was one of those myself, once! I'd love to recommend St Stephen's House, which is where I went 20-odd years ago, but it's taken a very conservative turn in the past few years which you may find a bit stifling. It's a pity, because the combination of the House and Oxford made it a very happy time for me.
Give Mirfield plenty of thought. It's not as isolated as people sometimes think - not only Sheffield, it's handy also for Leeds and even Manchester. I've worked with Mirfield students and have always been impressed with them.
The "monastic rhythm" is really the rhythm of the Daily Office and the Eucharist. As others have said, it can be a great blessing: sets you up for the rest of your ministry.
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Hezekiah
Apprentice
# 17157
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Posted
The characterisation of Staggers as conservative and unfriendly is really very old-fashioned. Yes, it has more traditional Anglo-Catholic ordinands than other colleges, but that means that the liturgy is fantastic. The social side of the house is great and the common room body really is very mixed. Let's move on from the bitchy, gossipy stereotype of the early 90s.
I would thoroughly recommend the place.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
Cuddesdon - I don't drive,...
I know some people have very good reasons why they'll never able to drive, so if any of those applies to you, my apologies and ignore everything I'm about to say. If you can learn, do so now, before you get swamped with other things you're meant to be learning. I know how much my ministry would be restricted if I couldn't drive. Yes, I know elderly priests and one young epileptic priest who can't drive and still do wonderful things. But, if I couldn't get to the hospital in the middle of the night, or make a home visit, or easily get to diocesan meetings, or go to the school kids' away sports meetings, or... I wouldn't be to the half the ministry the parish needs me to.
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
newcastle-anglican wrote:
quote:
Westcott - I like the idea of it, having visited it once I didn't love it, and I may feel out of my depth in Cambridge... possibly? is it as cliquey as I imagine?
What was it that felt cliquey about Westcott?
I enjoyed being there enormously but what places feel like is very important and very individual. I knew within a few hours of an open day at Westcott that I wanted to train there.
The other thing to consider, if you are in an exporting Diocese, is that some colleges are more likely to have their ordinands retained by the Diocese.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I agree with the wisdom of visiting first, and with the importance of learning to drive if you can. Folks from Cuddesden can and do cycle into Oxford, but it needs a moderate degree of fitness.
The other thing I'd want to say is not to let your theological background have too strong a say. These things are always fluid, and God may well be calling you to move a bit. Lots of people do at theological college (for good or ill) - I certainly did.
But yes, visit some places, maybe even outside your comfort zone. Cranmer Hall, for example, is probably the broadest of the traditionally evangelical colleges, and just as some evangelicals go to Cuddesden, some liberals and catholics go there.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
There were even a few Anglo-Catholics at Cranmer Hall in the 1970s. I think they used to sneak off somewhere on Sunday afternoon to secret eucharistic adorations ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
There were even a few Anglo-Catholics at Cranmer Hall in the 1970s. I think they used to sneak off somewhere on Sunday afternoon to secret eucharistic adorations
When I was at the neighbouring hall in the Noughties, there were a couple too.
Thurible
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I wouldn't be surprised if there are even more now. Especially as it is the only college in the North apart from Mirfield; and Durham diocese has a large number of ango-catholic parishes (or at least used to).
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
There are a few anglo-catholics at cranmer, although not huge amounts. It's a fairly broad intake, with an open evangelical core. Lecturers include ordained and lay, anglican, methodist, RC and other. It is a good place, and well worth a look
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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newcastle-anglican
Apprentice
# 17759
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Posted
i have heard cranmer has become quite charismatic... would that be a reasonable observation?
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
It can be, but charismatic spirituality is certainly not universal in the student body (or the staff as far as I can see). It's not unusual to see people raise their hands in worship, but nor is it unusual for people to cross themselves or bow. Most people are probably either charismatic or at least comfortable with that style of spirituality.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
When I was at the neighbouring hall in the Noughties...
Well, yes. not being an ordinand or anything like one I was resident in the part of the College that is mostly on the side of the library with easier access to the bar and the boathouse rather than on the side with the croquet lawn
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
Things have changed a bit since then - no croquet lawn (at least that I've seen...)
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Charismatic can be surprisingly close to Catholic. I know one lecturer at an Anglican theological college who says that his first proper charismatic experience was in a chapel service at Mirfield...
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield; Balaam should be along to correct me shortly. It is certainly easier to get to Wakefield; simply as from Sheffield you have to change train at Wakefield (top tip, go to Westgate not Kirkgate station which was desolate in 1977 and has not improved). You also have the opportunity to go to Hudderfield and from there you are well connected by the rail network.
Jengie
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What do you mean by 'very conservative', Adeodatus? They now have an ordained woman on the staff.
I don't really mean theologically conservative or even socially - I don't know because I don't have any contact with the House these days. But when it comes to liturgy, I have seen a few photos recently where the celebrant is wearing a Latin chasuble - virtually unthinkable in my day.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jenn.:
Things have changed a bit since then - no croquet lawn (at least that I've seen...)
Cranmer lawn was where the hoops were put up in my day.
Thurible
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield;
Yes, Mirfield is much nearer Leeds than Sheffield. It used to have strong links with Leeds University (there was a hostel 'of the Resurrection' there used by ordinands doing degrees and proceeding to the college at Mirfield.) Maybe they are now linked academically with Sheffield instead, but as Jengie said it is more difficult to get there. Huddersfield is only 3 or so miles away (and more trains stop there than at Mirfield)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
Cuddesdon - I don't drive, am not married or have a child... would this be a disadvantage. Practically not having a car would I feel isolated there?? The diversity would suit me though.
And they have a stunning chapel.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't know very much about it, but have you considered St Michael's Llandaff? They do have English students there (and Methodists too, BTW), and as the only college for Wales they try- reasonably successfully, AFAIK- to cover quite a range of churchmanship. That, and the experience of being in a slightly different part of the Anglican Communion, might be interesting. Striking chapel and agreeable location on the North side of Cardiff.
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Panda
Shipmate
# 2951
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Posted
Striking is right! I'm still recovering from being struck by it...
But yes, well worth a look. A nice welcoming feel to it, and not just for the Welsh; several English ordinands that I can think of, who came because of the broad range of churchmanship. This is part of the package, as all Welsh ordinands now have no choice about going there.
quote:
Thurible said:
Regarding St Stephen's House, see my thoughts here.
What do you mean by 'very conservative', Adeodatus? They now have an ordained woman on the staff.
Well yes, but not exactly intentionally. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Lucy Gardner was on the staff there nearly 20 years before she was ordained.
[ 18. July 2013, 12:56: Message edited by: Panda ]
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Indeed. But MinDiv kept harassing them to have an ordained woman on the staff - and now they do!
Regarding the vesture, liturgically, it has gone a bit trad - plainsong propers and Latin chasubles (and Spanish ones too). But a fair number of the students, and perhaps even one or two members of staff, tolerate it all with a roll of the eyes.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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newcastle-anglican
Apprentice
# 17759
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Posted
i think mirfield does seem like a definite option. will defo take a good look at them all.
Posts: 10 | From: North | Registered: Jul 2013
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LRP
Shipmate
# 5013
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Posted
Buses go passed the door, very accessible for Huddersfield, my in-laws go to Battyeford Church which is next door to the Community and is more evangelical. Baalam used to know the church well.The Rev June Lawson is lovely and used to be our curate. I believe she has responsibility for training of ordinands.
I will give Baalam a nudge to post some more info.
The train station at Mirfield is about 10 - 15 mins away.
Posts: 420 | From: Yorkshire lass, born and bred. | Registered: Sep 2003
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newcastle-anglican
Apprentice
# 17759
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Posted
what happens if you visit them all and don't really feel anything special.
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
newcastle-anglican
quote:
what happens if you visit them all and don't really feel anything special.
Then you probably consider things like:
1. Location: can you imagine living there for 2-3 years. Do you want shops and pubs 5 min walk away or do you like wide open spaces.
2. The other students and college ambience: do you want lots of single ordinands or younger ordinands or families and children. Are there people who are going to be the close friends who will help you cope when things get tough.
3. Theology: more or less catholic/ evangelical; more or less socially liberal
4. Churchmanship as reflected in worship: do you want the daily office to be normative, do you want/ need a daily eucharist; do you want/ need a bells and smells, eastward facing, high mass (even if only occasionally) and benediction, stations of the cross and rosary/ lectio/ silent prayer groups.
5. Courses: how are they taught, do they offer what you would like to study. What are the opportunities for home and overseas placements. How many people spend time abroad and did they think it was good for their formation.
It is very individual and you get to choose...
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
What aig said.
I was coming on here to post that answer, but mine would have been less articulate!
I'm in 'hoping I've made the right choice' mode now as the reality of my move in a few weeks has only recently hit me. I'm spending three years at college so I wanted to get it right. I did feel that Mirfield was 'right' for me, but I had a tempting offer from Cuddesdon! That was great actually as it made me examine my choice and see if my reasons stacked up.
My advice would be to go and visit, and talk to current ordinands, as well as those now ordained. I found that people were quite honest about the pros and cons. There is no perfect place, just a pathway that's right for you. That may well be residential at a 'lib catholic' college, but it may not be. As aig said, it's a very individual thing.
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newcastle-anglican
Apprentice
# 17759
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Posted
how does it work at cuddesdon if you do the BTh ?
in terms of Oxford Uni
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harmony hope
Shipmate
# 4070
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Posted
I have to confess to only visiting Cuddesdon - as soon as I got there I knew it was 'right' and I'm off in there in just over 2 weeks' time! It was the inclusive and I think deeply spiritual ethos of the college combined with its acceptance of everyone 'just as you are' which was especially important for my family - the real sense of community.
Of course that doesn't mean that I wouldn't have found somewhere equally as suitable - it was just the sense that God had really brought me to this place at this time.
Good luck with your search!
H Hope
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'God grant me the Serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can and Wisdom to know the difference.'
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by newcastle-anglican:
how does it work at cuddesdon if you do the BTh ?
in terms of Oxford Uni
They will work it. Anyway Oxford has a Certificate for theology graduates which is all that remains of the former BD and is specifically aimed at people who have a first degree in theology.
Jengie
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
This thread came up in a conversation with one of our ordinands on placement, and I recalled that when I was visiting theological colleges back in the '90s, it somehow occurred to me to ask, 'Are all your ordinands white and middle-class?' In the end, I think it was the way that question was answered that decided me.
In those days, the residential colleges were virtually entirely white and pretty well middle-class too. The line taken was that minority ordinands preferred the regional training schemes. The trouble was that this perpetuated (and still perpetuates) a white, middle-class hierarchy of Bishops, Archdeacons, Cathedral Canons etc. all of whom have been trained residentially, eaten together, prayed together, formed cell groups together etc.
The residential colleges are still, for the most part, the nurseries of a hierarchy that is, if anything, more stratified than it was twelve years ago.
I can't speak for Oakhill, Cranmer, Wycliffe, and St John's, but of the others, only Westcott has a substantial minority of ordinands of colour, and a Principal for whom this is a priority.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Hmmm. A bit like our parliamentary 'democracy' is dominated by middle-class policy wonks and ordinary people don't get a look in (except as stuffers of envelopes and knockers on doors at election time).
I remember a working-class ordinand who everyone expected would train on a non-residential course but who opted for a traditional theological college. Unfortunately he has now joined the establishment and has become an ecclesiastical equivalent of John Prescott.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
He could have done worse.
He could have become the ecclesiastical equivalent of Eric Pickles.
[ 03. August 2013, 13:10: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
True.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Frankly, though, Angloid, what gets to me sometimes is seeing all the diversity of the deacons being ordained every year: in age, in sex, in sexual orientation, in churchmanship, in colour---and then seeing the point at which this stops--so Canons and Archdeacons and DDOs can be male or female but are almost exclusively white, Cathedral Deans can be male or female, but are exclusively white, senior parish clergy generally need to be white and have good hair (add male if they're Evangelical). Bishops are straight (by definition*), male, and, with two notable exceptions, white. How much of this has to do with the connections formed at theological college?
*As a senior diocesan bishop once said to me, 'All bishops are, necessarily and by definition, straight.'
[ 03. August 2013, 14:25: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
In those days, the residential colleges were virtually entirely white and pretty well middle-class too. The line taken was that minority ordinands preferred the regional training schemes. The trouble was that this perpetuated (and still perpetuates) a white, middle-class hierarchy of Bishops, Archdeacons, Cathedral Canons etc. all of whom have been trained residentially, eaten together, prayed together, formed cell groups together etc.
The residential colleges are still, for the most part, the nurseries of a hierarchy that is, if anything, more stratified than it was twelve years ago.
As someone who's about to start on a regional training scheme, I find the idea of the system of two-tier clergy training deeply troubling, both institutionally and personally: there's a particular tone in which 'oh, so you're going to train on a regional scheme' is said which is very revealing.
Maybe that is over-sensitive on my part. But I am really quite forcibly struck by how poorly resourced the regional schemes are compared to the residential colleges. (Not that this necessarily translates into poor quality of training; in my other life I work at a poorly-resourced, high quality institution that has a mission to serve older, working students, and I know that big money doesn't necessarily mean great quality. Though it's always helpful.) It's depressing to think of one sort of training for the future elite and another for, well, the rest.
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Niminy Piminy--I'll post something about this in a bit--I've got a Parish Mag article to write right now--but be of good cheer amidst the Trollopean tragi-comedy.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Please note, train wise I think Mirfield is easier to get to from Leeds than Sheffield; Balaam should be along to correct me shortly. It is certainly easier to get to Wakefield; simply as from Sheffield you have to change train at Wakefield (top tip, go to Westgate not Kirkgate station which was desolate in 1977 and has not improved). You also have the opportunity to go to Hudderfield and from there you are well connected by the rail network.
Jengie
Just found this thread.
As an ex resident of Mirfield here's the run down.
If getting there by public transport is important then assuming you are travelling from Newcastle then Mirfield is easy to get to.
Both Huddersfield and Dewsbury are served directly by train from Newcastle. There is a good bus service to Mirfield from both. Huddersfield is the best bet for the change as the bus and train stations are closer together.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
Niminy Piminy: IIRC, I said on another thread that people I've known who've been on your course praised it. Now, as always in the Church's history, people coming forward for training have to keep their focus on what they're being called to do, and for Whom. All the other stuff--the issues surrounding preferment, institutional sexism, racism, and the self-perpetuation of in-groups--is something you can be aware of without letting it deform you as you're being formed as a priest. You will have a good training. You may need to go out of your way to get the formation stuff done--the collective saying of the office; the quiet days, and retreats, the long conversations and new friendships with other people in the same process. Do it--these things are really important. Always keep in the front of your mind that you have been called to be a pastor of Christ's flock, not a mandarin of His Civil Service.
One of the bigger bits of good news recently has been that Justine Allain Chapman, Tutor in Pastoral Theology on SEITE is heading off to be Archdeacon in Lincoln Diocese. She's a very good thing--and used to make all her ordinands view Shrek I as an introduction to Pastoral Theology.
[ 03. August 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489
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Posted
Thank you, Amos. I do know that it is a good course -- I know people who I think a great deal of who have been through it. And you are right about not getting distracted by the institutional gubbins. If I'd wanted to be an apparatchik, there are opportunities enough in my other life. And I recognise, even before getting there, the wisdom of your words about formation.
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Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
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Posts: 776 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010
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Masha
Shipmate
# 10098
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Posted
I wonder if the senior jobs have all gone to theological college bods because that's where most clergy with enough experience in stipendiary ministry trained?
I was told that the current variety of training options is reasonably new, but perhaps I was told wrong.
If I'm right though and that's now changing then surely we'll start to see more non-residentially trained priests in senior posts. Hope so, I know several excellent candidates who trained that way!
[ 03. August 2013, 22:15: Message edited by: Masha ]
Posts: 308 | Registered: Aug 2005
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